₦airaland Forum

Hismasterpiece:
Hmm.. That's cold..

sonmvayina:
Lol..because where not being saved before he was born?
Olodo

sonmvayina:
Salvation is per head...

tctrills:
If there could be war in heaven then you should know and expect same here. There would always be the good and the bad and the many caught in-between.
There would always be the need to keep safe and protect yourself as long as there is evil in this world.

sonmvayina:
Salvation is per head...

MindHacker9009:
But His apostles knew they picked up stones to stone their master, so why did they still go back to the same temple?

MindHacker9009:
The Roman empire occupying Israel at the time were the bad guys but made the Jews resisting their occupation to look like the bad guys.

tctrills:
Every one of them believes and obeys those verses 100%. Have you even read the passages?

tctrills:
Its simple English I cant make it easier for you to understand.

tctrills:
JW would learn from JW
Deeper life would learn from deeper life
Redeem would learn from Redeem
You are not making an intelligent point

tctrills:
Every other group shares the same doctrine to all their members.
You are like the boy that thinks his Father's farm is biggest without visiting other farms.
The Catholics for example share the same doctrine to all their members.
I advise you to study more about other groups.
There is no bliss in ignorance.

tctrills:
Do you understand the separation of church and state? In a multi-religious nation, differences are not separated in the church. You guys don't do politics so what would you know?
Guy, no church can stop wars. Even God did not stop the war in heaven so it's foolish to resolve peacefully with someone about to kill you and take away your land.

tctrills:
Your followers should believe your doctrine or what you expect. It's not difficult to brainwash people.

tctrills:
Me too, I was a general in the Russian army so what's your point?
Do worry, I would educate you. This idea of no war is not original with JW. Also, it is a foolish idea. As long as wickedness abounds, there would always be a need to fight.

tctrills:
Oga what do you understand by separation of church and state?
Also. we both agreed that it was just for the children of Israel to war with Benjamin so you have no point.

tctrills:
To enlighten you further, I would create a post about all the religions against war and politics. You have a lot to learn. I would keep you updated.

tctrills:
Its a foolish question even to those who believe Mark 12:29-31 and John 13:34-35. You are not a child and you have some intelligence. You know the war in Ukraine is not a religious war so why are you blaming it on the Catholics?

Sand2022:
Ok I think you agree, you only say that He accepts only the error of His chosen ones. It's ok. Who His chosen ones are differ from person to person. However, another will say that error is error. Well done.

Sand2022:
Almost similar. So the mention is about their leader who is a false prophet.

Sand2022:
Do the superfine apostles always obey?

Sand2022:
And error is of God, right?

Sand2022:
So you agree that others not the Jews also had the miraculous gift. You do well.

Sand2022:
So 1john, 2john, 3john and book of John were not divinely inspired?

tctrills:
Yes your question was stupid. The bible says God is love it also calls him Mighty in battle.
The war in Ukraine has nothing to do with religion.
You believe that if Catholics have the same doctrines then Russia would not invade Ukraine. How does that make sense.

Hismasterpiece:
Wow.. So you don't talk to your parents because you are now a JW? You don't relate with them anymore? Is that what you're saying?

Sand2022:
Good. Wonderful. So we can now see that someone who was not baptized made it to the kingdom. In other words, someone who is not a JW, if we use the JW understanding, made it to God's kingdom. Isn't that revealing?

Sand2022:
Alright your concern is organization. I get it. Well, many churches today are organized.
My oga. I am local.

Sand2022:
You said individual judgment will come after Christs thousand year reign. Is that your understanding or the teaching of JWs?
I agree with this. That's the meaning of that Rev 20;13 you quoted. Fantastic!. After Christ reign, not during. But that's not what JWs teach.
It's good to know that you do your bible study and differ with JW doctrine in some areas. That makes you sincere if you ask me.
Although it is on the "would have become perfect" aspect that I don't know how you arrived at that. If the judgment will be after the thousand year reign, how will all be perfect from the grave?

Sand2022:
You didn't get my point. We have established that humans err in trying to understand the bible. What I'm asking if it is reasonable to think that the correct understanding will always issue from one particular group of bible students.

There are bible scholars in different parts of the world. Since we are all fallible in understanding what the bible says, can we now say that the correct understanding of the bible will always come from one source that is also in itself fallible? Do you not see a possibility of Group A being right in one teaching and Group B being wrong, or Group A being wrong while Group B being right? Or even Group A and B being all wrong? Or even One Scholar being right while either Group being wrong?

Sand2022:
That's another scripture you refer to there. Iam discussing Matt 7 that you quoted earlier.

If we say that Jesus meant a group or a religion/denomination will it not mean that all in that group are all prophets? So you should look out for a group composed of prophesying prophets, of which all of them are fake? I can't recall any denomination that all members are prophets. If there is, then from your interpretation, it will mean that other churches that are not composed of all prophets are not being meant by Jesus words. That doesn't make sense, does it?

Seriously, Jesus meant false prophets, not any denomination.

Sand2022:
True, if a false prophet is a GO of a church, then it's members are in danger. But a GO might be a true prophet but one or two members are false prophets. That's possible too. The GO won't be false because some in the church are false,right?

Sand2022:
But of course, even if the reference was to a false denomination, it doesn't mean that all denominations are all false. Does it?

Sand2022:
Why are you adding what the verse didn't say. Jesus was praying for them to be one. Of course they are one, but it didn't mean that they never argued, that they never quarrelled, that none ever left Christianity for something else from first century till date. Is that true? They were not always thinking one thing. This should be easy for you to understand na bros.

We have Judas Iscariot, we have Hemeneaus and Phylectus, and Diotrephes, false apostles in Corinth etc. They will not all think one thing always.

Sand2022:
If your meaning of reject is that God became angry with them, sent them on exile, allowed them to be defeated by their enemies, then I agree. We all know that that didn't mean that God rejected them, rather it was to discipline them to make amends. If they changed, he rescues them. Is that what you mean by reject? If so, I agree.

But that's not what I mean. I mean total rejection as His people and never ever taken them back as His people. Did God ever do that? Was it not till Jesus came and they nailed him that the Jews as a tribe were totally rejected as God's people in favor of the Israel of God?

Sand2022:
Do you agree? I think your comment below mean you agree.
You said God didn't give the supernatural gift to anyone outside Israel. Perhaps you mean that when the supernatural gift was given during pentecost, it was only the Jews and perhaps also circumcised gentiles that received the gift. I don't want to believe that you mean to say that it was only the Jews that had such miraculous power all throughout the first century. That's not what you mean right?

Sand2022:
There are some that believe that the power ceased back then. They reach their conclusion through deduction. The bible didnt say that that power will cease in the first century. Even if it ended, assuming the deduction were correct, we live in the last days where the prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter, should have another fulfillment. It will now be a matter of debate to conclude if that fulfillment is happening now or it will happen in the future. But since we are almost at the end of this world, one will think that it is plausible that this prophecy should be fulfilling now.

About Rev 22:18-19, I want to believe you are just joking because you and I know that that's not what that scripture mean, right?

sonmvayina:
Hardly..
All I have set out to prove is that Christianity is not derived from Judaism.
And I am not a Judaist ....
I just do comparative analysis

Hismasterpiece:
So you don't have a mother? Father? Brother? Sister? You're an orphan?

Sand2022:
I wonder where you got that from. Perhaps that's your understanding. The witnesses do not teach that if you're not a JW, you won't be saved. As far as I know, they don't know that for sure. They live the judgment for Jesus.
I assume that's your own belief. But it's good to be let Jesus make that decision. Seriously, you can't know for sure what he will decide. Remember that criminal at his right hand, who knows that even though he is not baptized, nor follow Jesus, he was saved. That should humble us to let the God appointed judge do his work.

Sand2022:
That's not what that scripture says. Any christian can do what that Malachi says, not minding his denomination. Right?

Sand2022:
There lots of wrong statements made here. Would you want to talk about it?

tctrills:
This is a foolish question. The wars in the world are not being fought over doctrine.
Let me give you an example.
Russian did not invade Ukraine because of a disagreement in their religious doctrines.
The second world war was not about Hitler's doctrines.
Please stop asking foolish questions.
You are not a kid.

sonmvayina:
Lol..you might want to ask the Jews..

From God obviously..

Who else would have given it?

KnownUnknown:
Why should I ask “the Jews” when you’re the one making the claims here?

Somebody called God gave the Torah to Moses, you claim.
Did this God author the Torah? How did Moses receive it?

Gnosis777:
I'm still searching for the answer to this question. Whenever I feel as if I have come close to figuring it out, the more I realize that I am still further from the truth.

MaxInDHouse:
Visit jw.org!

Sand2022:
That's ok. That's how you see it. Another person here can say the same of his own church or religion.
Keep up your morality no matter where you are. When the day of reckoning comes, we shall know for sure. I believe God will judge us individually.

Sand2022:
Thanks for being open minded.
Sorry you seem to miss the point of my comment. Maybe I didn't word it so well. What I mean is, since no one can say for sure what understanding is not fallible, unless he is supernaturally directed, both your scholars and other scholars are striving to understand the bible. Since we all can't claim infallibility in understanding this divine word, will it not be reasonable to admit that we may be wrong in this and others are right or we may be right in this while another is wrong or that it is even possible that both of us are wrong? Will it be reasonable to think that which ever truth that will ever exist must ALWAYS come from a particular group of men?
What do you think?

Sand2022:
True fake prophets are real. We need to be careful about such ones. In fact that is why I have a thread to know if there is any prophet that has a reputation of true prophecies because while the Devil can thrive in miracles, he can't always foretell the future accurately. In fact God used that as a challenge to false gods in Isaiah.
Jesus was not there talking about a group, but specifically the prophets and perhaps false miracle workers. Of course by saying that, Jesus doesn't mean that there are no true prophets. No. He was in fact talking about fake ones.

Sand2022:
No. Divisive individuals will always come. Both during when Jesus was with his apostles, or when the apostles formed churches, there were occasions of argument, disagreement, disunity. Christ is dealing with humans, he knows that such divisions will manifest one way or another. That's why he gave the command so that they will at least make effort. Not everyone will obey the command to be united in thought or doctrine.

Sand2022:
I don't think you understand me. The point I was making is about division in Israel. Did all tribes or individuals in Israel always agree on one thing? For example did the Southern tribe and Northern tribe always agree? Were the Israelites always doing what God wanted them to do? Did God reject them all those times and chose another nation?

Sand2022:
Good point. Nice one. I have always been of the point that we should be careful of fake people. We don't have to be too believing otherwise we are gone.

We however should not go to the other extreme of saying that no true prophet exists. I mean while saying the above, we won't think that Jesus was saying that there are no true miracles or prophets. We know that after he died and went to heaven, he poured out a spirit that made people to perform miracles and prophesied. His warning about fakes won't mean that we shouldn't accept the miracle that came after Jesus went to heaven. In fact those miracles were proves that God no longer approves Judaism but has chosen Christianity. So that was unmistakable stamp of God's approval. But the disciples back then still manifested the christian FRUITAGE while still performing miracles. So while talking about fruitage, know that those back then manifested these fruits and still performed miracles. But there are fakes for sure.
It is hard to know which power is behind a miracle, but one thing is sure, what does that miracle worker teach? What is his conduct? For me, I recommend checking if he is a prophet to see if his prophecies always come true. To me that will make a lot of sense.

Sand2022:
JWs teach that soul is a person. That is actually true from my understanding. Perhaps the guy doesn't understand what JWs teach or he himself has his own understanding of the meaning of a soul.

Sand2022:
There are various reasons that make that happen. Some form churches when no one called them, no appearance by God's angel, no inspired direction for a ministry. They just open a church to make money or for other reasons best known to them. Others open church because of wrong understanding of the bible. They are sincere, but wrong understanding of the bible led them to form the church. It doesn't matter the reason, Jesus says that in the harvest, he will collect from the word any whose service is ok in his sight. Till then, we worship God in spirit and truth till the day of reckoning. Worship of God knows no building or church name, but the heart.

But one has to obey the basic teachings of the bible. But we shouldn't judge who will or who will not make it, only God can decide that. Because if you want to talk about doctrine, logically a teaching might make sense, but be humble to accept this truth; unless you have an inspired direction, you cannot be sure of which persons doctrine is right or wrong. There are exceptions, yes, but unless God tells you, you may be wrong but you think you're right in a teaching. The history of JWs should even prove that point.

Sand2022:
Maybe you didn't even get my point because you seem to be saying the same thing I have in mind. We agree that the apostles made mistakes in UNDERSTANDING. But don't you agree that it wasn't the spirit that led them to a wrong understanding. Do we agree on that?

Sand2022:
I agree that when God's spirit moves them to utter inspired word, that word is accurate and cannot change. However, to understand all that they were inspired to pen down needs careful study of those inspired expressions. This I agree you believe as well, right?

Sand2022:
Now what if they err in their understanding of what the spirit inspired or what Jesus said, can we say it was the spirit that led them to those wrong understanding? From the bold faced words, I think your answer is no.

Sand2022:
So we can see that we can not say that being wrong in understanding what either Jesus or God's word says is being led by the spirit. The GB, as well as other scholars are roving about to understand these things. The understanding is not limited to a group of men.

Sand2022:
Unless you have an inspired direction on a point, you do not have any right to condemn others who try to understand the same bible that you also struggle to understand. You can be right in one point and they are wrong, or you can be wrong in that point and they are right. Or it could even be that both of you are all wrong.

What do you think?

Sand2022:
2. While I agree on your point of the fruit of the spirit, and yes as John 13:34-35 says, love will help people to identify the christians, but let it be known that John 13:34,35 is a command. Jesus is not saying that love will supernaturally be in their midst to identify them as his disciples. Take note of the word IF in that verse. Jesus is saying that if they have love, if they cultivate that quality, people will know them as his disciples, but if they do not, that doesn't mean that they are not his disciples, it only means that people will not identify them as his disciples. It will be hard for people to see them as such because obviously they are not united. It however, does not mean that they are not his disciples.

Sand2022:
Ancient Israel was largely divided as some time, they also worshiped other gods, that didn't mean that they are no longer God's people, but it will be hard for others to know that. In fact even the apostles had divisive moments in their history. What showed God's favor with them was the unmatched miraculous work issuing from them. That was the unmistakable stamp of God's approval even while they had some issues amongst them. Do you agree with this?

tctrills:
Every other group shares the same doctrine to all their members.
You are like the boy that thinks his Father's farm is biggest without visiting other farms.
The Catholics for example share the same doctrine to all their members.
I advise you to study more about other groups.
There is no bliss in ignorance.