₦airaland Forum

oteneaaron:
So who was the first person to begin quoting the the Testimonium - that is 300 years after the original work by Josephus?

He is a man called the "Notorious Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea"

Who was Eusebius and why was he called Notorious?

In addition to being bishop of Caesarea, and courtier and biographer of the Emperor Constantine, he was the very first Christian historian, still venerated by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as “the Father of Ecclesiastical History.”

In a very real sense, he is responsible for virtually everything we know about the early centuries of Christianity.

But despite this, history has not been kind to Eusebius.

Why?

Eusebius has on countless occasions been proven to be a master of forgery.

Over two dozen complaints from his contemporaries still survive: accusations of lack of integrity, poor scholarship, deliberate misrepresentations in his histories, and hypocrisy.

Read - Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Some of his alleged forgeries include -

1. A pair of letters between the ruler of Edessa and Jesus himself (the legend of the letters went on to include the Mandylion, or “Holy Face of Edessa” – a self-portrait of Jesus!),

2. Alterations to Flavius Josephus’ Antiquities, deliberate falsification of dates, swiping from a Roman novel to create Christian martyr “biographies,” and

3. Forging a heretical succession to make it appear rival Christian factions were just a small knot of misguided crackpot heretics from much later who all inherited their errors from one another.

Eusebius had no difficulty in altering any inconvenient aspects of reality that didn’t suit him. In fact, he seemed to doctor the facts habitually and constantly; he re-wrote his official church history at least five times.

So three hundred years after Josephus, the Testimonium Flavinium makes its first appearance in three books of Eusebius, who cites it from his copy of Antiquities of the Jews.
And where did Eusebius get his copy of Antiquities of the Jews?

He inherited it from his master... who inherited it from Origen.

The same Origen who never heard of the passage! No matter how you slice it, the Testimonium sticks out like the complete fraud it is, and Bishop Eusebius is prime suspect for the forgery.

Think about this very carefully -

If Josephus actually wrote the passage of the Testimonium, don't you think the early Church fathers would have gladly quoted from it as proof that Jesus really existed?

Why did we have to wait for 300 years before Eusebius who has been identified as a forgery be the first to quote from the Testimonium?

This throws away the statement from MaxInDHouse.

Josephus NEVER mentioned those words.

This proves that Josephus didn't know about any Jesus who lived and died at least 60 years before he wrote his book - Antiquities of the Jews.

Or is MaxInDHouse saying we should trust the words of Eusebius - a proven forgery?

I don't think so.

The Testimonium Flavanium cannot be trusted as a reliable contemporary source to prove the existence of Jesus.

cornelboy:
See this Oteneaaron guy sha. No be him wan give us one ticket each for research abroad

oteneaaron:
The body of material MaxInDHouse is referring to are passages/paragraphs from the book written by Flavius Josephus called the - Antiquities of the Jews -

The first passage or paragraph MaxInDHouse mentions is as also known as the - Testimonium Flavianum -

For the purpose of reference, this is what it states - -

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.“ (Ant., book 18, chapter 3)

Now it is a fact that this book - Antiquities of the Jews - was written in the year 93CE or 94CE that is more than 60 years after the "death of Jesus".

It is very important to note that Josephus wrote his book, not when Jesus was still alive, but more than 60 years years after his death.

With that out of the way, we need to prove the authencity of the Testimonium Flavanium and the reason is that, the Testimonium was added about 300 years after the original work was written by Josephus.

The Testimonium Flavianum that MaxInDHouse the house refers to is not an original work and has proven to be a fake statement.

Let me explain why.

There are two reasons why many scholars agree that the Testimonium should not be taken as actual history but as a fake statement:

The first reason is that the majority of the early Christian writers who were alive during the period when the first version of the - Antiquities of the Jews - was written, never mentioned nor quoted the Testimonium.

What proof do we have for this?

Well for one, throughout the years when Josephus first wrote his book, it was extensively quoted from and used as a reference for many of early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius and Lactantius.

Origen in particular relied extensively on him; his own writings are filled with references to Josephus.

But it is obvious Origen had never heard of the Testimonium. When his skeptical Roman opponent Celsus asks what miracles Jesus performed, Origen answers that Jesus’ life was indeed full of striking and miraculous events, “but from what other source can we can furnish an answer than from the Gospel narratives?” (ContraCelsum, 2.33)

In the same book (1.47), Origen even quotes from - Antiquities of the Jews - in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticizes him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!

So if the Testimonium Flavianum was there from the very beginning and wasn't an addition that happen almost 300 later, how come these early Christian writers never talked about it as we have seen that they extensively commented on the book written by Josephus?

Stay with me, I am getting somewhere.

oteneaaron:
I knew you would mention Josephus.
Be calm.
I am not done yet.
Allow me to finish.
I didn't interrupt you when you laid your points.
Remember I asked you more than once if you were done.
When I am through, you can poke all the holes you want.
Be patient.

oteneaaron:
In this little write-up, these terms would have their meaning in Context as follows:

GOD-- Signifies the "supreme being" from any religion ( Yahweh, Allah, Buhdda, Sango, Krishna, Oduduwa, Owoicho........etc)

MAN-- Signifies You and I ; all humans existing and non-existing(HUMANITY as a whole)

RELIGION-- signifies all of the worlds religion (after-all they are all products of the same factory)



WHO CREATED GOD??

Its no wonder that when you ask he above question to any religious minded person and you're gonna get differing answers.

Ask any creationist : "What is the proof that Man was created ? " , "how do we know that life and all there is had a designer?"

And we receive this reply that -- Man and all there is are intelligent creatures ; the human brain, the universe in general attest to the fact that everything was created by a Supreme Being...

*Please note the argument - an intelligent creation must have an intelligent designer-

So here is the correlation, If you seriously believe that "nothing came from nothing" and there has to be an explanation for our "intelligence",
then GOD must have been created too!!!

WHY?

"GOD" exists and he is very ( if not too Intelligent---common, he's GOD!!).....so what is the explanation for his Intelligence??

If the world as we know it attests to fact of the existence of a creator, then that creator must have been created because HE(GOD) bears the same (proof of an Intelligent creator) Qualities.

Now who created GOD??


Sadly, the answer has been right in Front of Us all this time........

WE created GOD!! You and I , MAN.....

When we were perplexed as to how the universe was sparse and awe-inspiring, we had to give credit to -someone- so we invented GOD

When were Scared because we felt or experience disappointment, death, sickness..etc, we needed Solace and we created GOD to blame and to beg for assistance

When we felt the need to Control our fellow MAN, we created GOD and religion to keep humans in check , after-all they must all answer to our creation -GOD-

GET IT RIGHT...

We created GOD


Now, our creation of GOD may have been a necessary evil, and MAN is growing up....the time has come for us to let go of Childish things!!

oteneaaron:
Lol
What hot seat?

Why are you calling me stupid?

Why the insults and name calling?

22jumpstreet:
This is not an answer, my friend.
You can do better
DO BETTER.

GardenOfGod:
Following...

oteneaaron:
The information is out there for you to find.
The temple of Luxor in Egypt is still standing till this very day.

GardenOfGod:
I'm not only an observer, I record point for overall assessment of the debate.

22jumpstreet:
You are learning very fast...

I know you are still unshaven.

You know how they put in cigarettes packs "smoking causes lung cancer, and smokers are liable to die young" and people still smoke..

Yea..thats the kind of mind you have.

The only thing that can change your mind is if the Vatican comes clean and open their secret archives.. and people see how the deceit began.

You will change....

Not now.

GardenOfGod:
Following...

cornelboy:
Is this some sort of story story story or your supposed evidence?

GardenOfGod:
Following...

GardenOfGod:
Following...

oteneaaron:
I'm not done yet.
I am just getting started.
Today is a Sunday and I am handling other chores, so please be patient with me as my replies will be coming in slow.
Thank you for understanding.

MaxInDHouse:
This should be between just two persons:
Oteneaaron (atheist/agnostic) and MaxInDHouse (a Christian)
Thanks Sir!

oteneaaron:
To begin our investigation into whether the story of Jesus is not real but just a myth, let us first learn about the Mythology of similar God-Men from antiquity.

We shall begin from ancient Egypt (in Northern AFRICA)

As we already know, ancient Egypt is the home of the world's oldest religion that were termed as the "mystery cults".

Please note that it was only after the Rosetta Stone was found in July 1799 that archeologists and scholars were finally able to decipher what was written in stone by the ancient Egyptians.

See - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone

After translations were done, it was found out that on the walls of the temple of LUXOR in ancient Egypt, that the hieroglyphs spoke about a dying and resurecting God-man - and this was at the heart of the ancient Egyptian Mystery Religion.

And also by studying some ancient texts like the Egyptian Book of the Dead, we learn that it was a long held teaching in ancient Egypt, that each human had a spark of the divine deep inside them.

The goal of the mystery religion of ancient Egypt was in helping each adherent realize their own divinity, and to help them fully understand this, the mystery religion was dramatized as the myth of the God-man called HORUS.

HORUS was also known as IUSA or ISUSU and according to the ancient mysteries,

1. Horus was born of a Virgin called Meri

2. Like the “star in the east” of the Gospels, Sirius, the morning star in Egypt, heralded the birth of Horus.

3. Horus was baptized in the River Eridanus by a god figure named Anup the Baptizer, who was later beheaded.

4. Horus had no history between the ages of twelve and thirty.

5. Horus walked on water, cast out demons, and healed the sick.

6. Horus was crucified between two thieves, buried in a tomb, and resurrected. His personal epithet was Iusa (or Iusu), the “ever-becoming son” of Ptah, or the Father.

7. Horus has 12 disciples which represented the 12 signs of the Zodiac.

8. Horus was born in cave and 3 wise men/magi came to pay him homage...

achorladey:
The same person that will call OTHERS mad, asiere, asinwin insane for discussing with him using the same Jesus is saying shame will not allow .

The same person that was told what Romans 10: 9 - 13 states but placed everything under claim back then

When it is repeated again it will still come under CLAIMS. We sabi your mode of operation.

Use your intelligence

cornelboy:
That's why I said it's not hard. No need to fear. He should just say it here that Jesus didn't exist ha!

22jumpstreet:
What of superman? He can shot fire from his eyes,can Jesus do that?
Super man is more of the prince of peace than Jesus.
Have you watched and read about "the quest for peace" superman iv
Like I always say..
There is no space for your opinion in the Bible....

MaxInDHouse:
Please if you want to know about Jesus of Nazareth try to open a new thread.
This thread is about just two persons:
Oteneaaron (atheist/agnostic)
And
MaxInDHouse (Christian)
Thanks!

22jumpstreet:
Just to chip in.

There are many teachings in the new testament that is totally alien to the old testament, thatis one of the reason why I believe it is not derived from the old testament. For one the new testament presents a dualism or dualistic belief. That is there are separate Gods for good and evil. While in the old there I just one God that is responsible for both. ..a singularity.

The prophet in the old testament did prophesy about a coming Messiah but a human non the less. From the root of Jesse through David his son. Messiah simply means anointed. Was Jesus anointed ...capital No.

One convincing reason as to why I think Jesus is a creation of the troman empire is the fact that the gospel are third person narratives. The authors never said who they are or how the story affected their lives or where they got the story from. No mention of knowing any character in the story they are telling. They are so far and withdrawn from it.

And the horrible fact that nobody knows aby Jesus in the first century. The worshippers of serapis where called Christians., no Jesus during this period...

The gospels are all written in Greeks.,..

So many facts against the existence of the Jesus....

Ken Humphrey gives a lot of point in in blog and YouTube videos..

cornelboy:
This question no hard na:
Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

22jumpstreet:
What did he teach that the prophets did not reach ?

cornelboy:
There's no way he could prove that Horus existed 2000 years before Christ and did the miracles Christ did.
Is he saying someone already fufilled the prophecies about Christ right before the prophecies were revealed and written?

cornelboy:
Who would you support if you were asked to, oteneaaron [Jesus is a myth] or MaxinDhouse [Jesus was a real historically figure]?

GardenOfGod:
Hmmm this is a tough challenge for MaxInDHouse and Janosky
I'm only a spectator

cornelboy:
He's still gathering his evidences.

oteneaaron:
So you really think Jesus was an actual figure in history?
DO YOUR RESEARCH!
Have you heard about the Egyptian Christ called Horus?
He was born of virgin, baptized at 30, resurrected Lazarus, turned water into wine, had a sermon on the mount, etc at least 2000 years before the Jesus of the Bible.
I gave you pointers sometime ago, go and start from reading those books.
Instead of taking the Bible as literal history - which it isn't, you should understand that it is all MYTHS and ALLEGORIES.
But I can't spoon feed you sir.
You have to find out this information for yourself.
It is not an issue of hate or attack.
History has proven this over and over again.
The life and story of Jesus is not unique, neither is it literal history.
There have been many "Christ Figures" from different cultures way older than Jesus of the Bible.
Go and read about - -
Horus, Dionysus, Krishna, Bacchus, Mythrias, but to mention a few.
DO YOUR RESEARCH!!

oteneaaron:
Thank you for your candid observation.
I am putting my points in order and will be updating the thread as I go.