₦airaland Forum

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=158829.msg2647691#msg2647691 date=1218571723]Religion did not make him that way, so quit with the finger pointing. Man made him that way evil people without consciences made him that way, some of them use religion to defend themselves, thwy are the ones that twist the Book.

Some of us are trying to come up with ways to help people like the poor boy in the picture (may God bless him). Some "religious fanatics" i.e. evangelists are busy stuck in their homes trying to make money off of religion. Trying to buy private jets and build mega churches to say oh mine is bigger than yours (the bunch of hypocrites)

However the religion teaching itself isn't what is harming people, the message of the religion is supposed to help the poor, the sick, and the dying, and help mankind and the earth survive or at least try to live in harmony.

But the people who claim to practice this religion are the ones who have twisted the word of God, for their personal gain. Believe me they will quote it but have nothing to show for it.

Don't blame religion itself, but the people who twist religion. Selfish people.

There are those who placed themselves with the poor and lived like them and try to help them feed and survive each day. They are the ones who practice what is taught by the religion.

One his name was never Esau. If you were to live in his time and walk up to him and call him, you would call him Yeshua. He was a Jew and spoke aramaic.
Esau means red haired in hebrew.

Jesus is the english name for Yeshua.

For example. A girl is named Iyesogie in Edo language meaning "mother is supreme" if you were to call her in the igbo language you would call her Nneka meaning "mother is supreme"
But in essence the same thing.

Get it?[/quote]why was his named changed from yahsau to jesus? why was'nt mohammeds name or all the other founders of the major religions changed? why should people accept jesus as his name when such a name never existed at the time of yahsau? its smacks of some shenanigan to me by the founders of the christain religion to fit into some pattern or agenda. what has jesus got to do with yahsua? does yahsua mean jesus  in greek? any co relation between the names?

davidylan:
Pick up a bible and read. The era of lazy people just coming here to pretend to ask for enlightenment is over.

which of the bibles? the catholic or martin luthers bible(66 books)? how does he know which is right or wrong since he was'nt around when all the versions where selected and published?

Gamine:
Choi

The bane of the times.

The time you are using to ask questions here

You could have invested it in READING!!!

reading which versions of the bible? which one is he to accept and which one is he to discard? why and why not?

Le Moor:
Jesus,
hmmm, even when the letter J didnt find its way into the alphabets until a thousand years later,

Pls can you expound on the above statement?

ilysaporta:
well and acciden tof birth didnt qualitfy you for salvation over someone else, it just gave you a head start on salvation. The bible said that jesus can't come back until the word is preached to the four corners of the earth (basically meaning until EVERY living person has heard about jesus.) B/c then, nobody can claim that they didn't know of him.

And Christ has been proven. It is proven that Jesus Christ walked this earth. However, it hasn't been proven that he rose from the dead. The short answer to your question is that you cannot calculate supernatural things with natural measures. The rise of Christ hasn't been physically proven because it can be physically proven.

and your point is? you see dogma has blinded your eyes and you only see things from the christain perspective, do you sincerely believe that christianity will take over china,india,sri-lanka,thailand,burma,iraq,iran.saudi arabia etc? islam is now the fastest growing religion ironically and if i may ask why is that the case? most people are leaving christainity(most europeans have left the religion) what has that got to say to your assertion that jesus will not come until all the four corners of the world have heard about him?

Esau walked the surface of this earth not jesus. who is jesus and why was his named chaged from esau to jesus. why is there so much controversy about his resurrection and crucifixtion?

davidylan:
Its apparent you've lost the plot. when men find themselves intellectually at sea they start grasping at straws.

Stick to one point and debate it to a logical conclusion, i will not follow you down the path of just fishing about for anything to save face.

what face? you are the one who is clearly saving face. i asked you questions which i believe you know you have little or no answers to instead of answering them because the questions are pertinent to our discussion you resorted to attacking me and saying i am trying to save face. look who is talking. I am not fishing about for anything.

I must commend you for trying to provide reasonable answers to most of the questions i and others have asked, even though i find most of your answers irreconcilable and not coherrent enough i will still have to applaude you because you have really tried. instead of threatening us with perdition you decided to answer the questions head on to the best of your ability which is good. any way as i aforementioned i am not fishing about for anything if you feel you can't answer the questions fine, you have tried at least you are the only christain of all the many that i know that has gone thus far. all the others just just dance around it, spew the nonsense line about faith and all the other rubbish they can arm themselves with and threaten me with perdition.

The bible is the most widely translated and read book on the planet. No muslim can claim NEVER to have read the bible or heard about Jesus . . . there is STILL no

which of the bibles? the one with the 66 books or the one with the over 70 books? by the way why are there so many types and version of the bible? which are people to believe and which are they to discard, my pastor once told me that the catholics and their bibles will all rot in hell. why is that so? and who says that the catholics and their bibles will all rot in hell? how do we know that their bible is false? in fact when did the bible become the bible? what about moslems, hindus etc that died before martin luther king and his 66 books of the bible will they all rot in hell too?  did the bible contain 66 books 50 years before martin luther king? by the way when did esua become jesus, why was his name changed to a greek name?

Have you hypocrite ever asked the muslims why their own god shld condemn us to hell for "something we also had no control over"?

The muslims are equally as deluded as you are as far as i am concerned.

olabowale:
@Mazaje: « #114 on: Today at 04:40:21 PM »
I ask you to provide your source(s), you are telling me a story, instead. The burden of proof is on the accuser. You can't do it, abi? I know it all along.

Your partypeoplepresent nothing!

it is there for you to see, mr mohammed footsoldier. open your eyes

All you who are morally upright should go and kill them all. demented and misguided generation.

[quote author=Okija_juju link=topic=159306.msg2647112#msg2647112 date=1218564963]madamkoko I tap into your annointing [/quote]I do the same too.

You seem to want to desperately hold God to a higher moral standard even though you deny it. Again i did not compare Him to you . . . i suppose i am speaking to people who can process complex information and not just robots. It is one thing to make a comparison, it is another to draw parallels to prove the fallibility of your argument.

If you say God shld have commanded the jews to spare children during regional wars (that have NOTHING to do with christianity anyway) then i ask you, would it have been smart for the Americans to avoid children when Nagasaki was bombed?

you see the problem with you, you are talking about god who you say is almighty all knowing and all good yet you keep  equating him to humans who your bible says are full of flaws and whose rigthouseness are like filty rags in the eyes of your god. americans are not your god hence i do not see them as having the qualities that you ascribe to your god which are all good, all knowing and all kind etc. i would definately like americans to do what you asked but i have no power to do so, even the americans know they were wrong thats why we have treaties like the geneva convention and nuclear disarmament etc. so it is ok for your god to spare the kids of the jews and excuse them because they have not yet attained the age of accountability but not the children of non jews.

I gave an age - you gleefully demanded for it (thinking, as you all are wont, that it didnt exist in the bible).

Please show me where i asked you for age in my post. i only asked you if it is sensible for the christain god to throw all the people that do not believe in him in hell and you came up with the age bruhaha.

Now i have provided proof that the age actually did exist - suddenly you don't give a Bleep about it?   Speaking from both sides of the mouth can sometimes be counter productive

Na you age the worry ohh. i said  i don't believe in the entire fable.      davidylan kenan.

When did God kill all these people and why?

i meant to ask why a good, merciful and loving god will destroy all the of non christains in hell for eternity just because of their non beliefs since it is something they had no control over, you can't tell me that a moslem, hindu etc will go to heaven because according to the bible they will all perish in hell for eternity because jesus is the only way to god. most moslems did not choose islam, same with hindus etc, they were born into it and their whole lives revoles around it, so i say it doesnt make any sense to me that a just, loving and merciful god will punish people because of their unbelief. when he did'nt ask for their approval and did'nt give them any option before creating them into a religion that their whole lives will revolve around.

It doesnt make sense to me because God does no such thing. YOU for instance cannot claim to have no control over your faith, you've heard the gospel, its up to you to reject it

what about moslems that know little or nothing about christainity? what about buddist, hindus, pallanguns etc? they have rejected christianity and why should they rot in hell for their unbeliefs?

The christians are those whom Christ described thus - Luke 8: 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

which of the words of god? stoning of people to death if the commit adultry,  is that not also the word of god? or turning the other cheek? helping the poor,destroying babies and infants in terms of war as commanded by god, enslaving others as ordered in the old testament or preaching the message of jesus? all of them are the words of god which one should people do and which one should people refrian from?

chucksd:
Any reasonable man knows that the bible is just tales and jewish stories collected for centuries in a written for the intellectually disabled people.i wonder how the tower of babel can possibly be true etc.Even if there was a true religion it cannot be christianity.It permits racial hatred which is manifested in the enslavement and massacre of indiginous population of conquered land.I WONDER WHY AFRICANS ARE STILL CHRISTIANS AFTER ALL WHAT THE RELIGION HAV DONE TO THEM.I THINK CHRISTIANITY HISTORICALY IS THE MOST BLOODY RELIGION THAT EVER EXISTED ALTHOUGH PEOPLE MAY SAY ISLAM BUT AS A HISTORIAN I WANT TO TELL YOU ALL THAT ISLAM,HINDU ETC WAS BLOODY IN THEIR OWN WAY BUT NOT COMPARED TO THE IGNORANCE AND CRUELTY OF CHRISTIANS ESPECIALLY CATHOLICS.IT IS JUST THAT THE CHURCH HAVE LOST ITS FORMER POWER AND HID UNDER THE GUISE OF FORGIVENESS IN OTHER TO SURVIVE THIS ADVANCED AGE.HATE ME IF YOU LIKE BUT IT IS ALL FACTS.

Very true, i wonder why china, indai(the most populated nations on earth) and the americas were not mentioned in that fairy tale book and why there were no prophet amongst them even though their existance predated christ and some of the so called prophets in the bible. i have read the quran and its is just the same as the bible nothing more nothing less. i wonder if people like david, moses etc were alive today, will they be called prophets or war criminals? what about a person like king solomon with over 700 concubines and uncountable wives will he be a role model for people in the mordern world? why are people following murderers, thieves and land snatchers? religion is a farce.

If you think God does not exist why then do you hold him to a higher moral standard than you?

Where did i say i hold god in a higher standard than me? are you kidding me? you said he is god and you were the one comparing him to humans that was why i made my statement.
Why should you compare your all powerful and all knowing god to humans(world war2 allied nations) who you believe he is better than?

This is just a measure of your inconsistency and hypocrisy . . . first you didnt believe the age of accountability existed in the bible, i showed you . . . now u've suddenly shifted gears to "why has it got to be about the jews in the wilderness"?

The quotation you posted is directly from the mouth of God - true.
He did not give any age restrictions there - true.

BUT when it came time to execute judgement on those who broke those commandments you posted . . . HE certainly gave age restrictions for which i have already shown you. The constitution of the land sometimes does not give age restrictions but is a child who breaks the law prosecuted in the same court as his father?

As regards the age of 20yrs . . . if you hypocrite bothered to even read the posts i made last you would have seen it there in red letters.

so now we are arguing about age? i dont give a Bleep about any age cos i dont believe in the entire fable, you are the one that is making excuses here. i asked why a good, merciful and loving god will kill all the billions of non christains that are living when they die and you came up with the little children argument what difference does it make if they are kids or adults? at what age do most people get indoctrinated? is it not when they were kids? so what difference does it make any way. will a merciful, all knowing and just god put people in hell for eternity for something they have no control over(their faith). does that sound sensible to you?

besides who are the christains? is it the jehova witness, catholics, seven day adventist, deeper life, white garments wearing christains etc( over 30,000 of them). all knocking heads with each other and each postulating to have the ultimate knowledge and answer.who are the christains?

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

The above quotation is directly from the mouth of god and he never gave any age restriction besides i have never heard of any age restriction only from you. why has it got to be about the jews in the wilderness and the age 20 is that what your mind tells you or what your god says? show me where it is written in the bible period, you go around calling people like pastor chris chalartans etc just for you to turn around and do the same thing they are doing(using your personal understanding and interpretation to imply its from god)

Now that is CLEARLY not the same as a regional war between two nations . . . the allied nations during WWII surely did not spare children below 5 years of age no?

This just goes to the whole point i have been saying all along that men created god in their own image, why compare god to men? why should god do things men do? i thought he was the almighty, all knowing and all supreme,why not compare your biblical god to buddah, sango, survinska etc why comepare his behaviours to that of men?

davidylan:
the problem is you already have a preconcieved idea that God is bad . . . and that is what you will read in every single bible verse irrespective of how much it is explained to you.

Read the journey of the jews through the wilderness . . . EACH TIME the jews sinned and God chose to destroy them . . . the bible was very careful to note that everyone BELOW the age of 20 was spared. Why? Is it because the 19yr old boy did not partake of the sin with his fathers?

Psalm 51:5 simply gives the reason why EVERYONE has no excuse not to be saved . . . we are all sinners so long as we are born in the flesh . . . but until you reach the age of accountability God will not pass judgement on you just exactly as he did not pass judgement on the Israelites below 20 years of age in the wilderness.

Now you're again jumping the gun in your haste to disprove the bible . . . the age of accountability in the bible (5000 years ago) was 20yrs . . . it is most likely different today . . . but one thing is important . . . the age a child is old enough to understand what is right from what is wrong, the age a child is old enough to understand the gospel . . . that child no longer has any excuse. I don't believe children below 13 years have the ability to understand the bible (and that is MY personal opinion).

You never fail to amaze me but the same god ordered people in the bible to kill, women , children and infants of non jews abi? why didnt he tell the jews to spare those under the age of 20, when they were carrying out their slaughterings?

[quote author=Okija_juju link=topic=158829.msg2646565#msg2646565 date=1218558688]It's like you are just making deductions from the bible based on what you think it should be. But I quoted a passage written in balck and white. So where do you get this age or whatever you stated.
So what happens to psalm 51: 5? Are you saying that anybody who dies before the age of 20 automaticaly goes to heaven?? Cos we got guerilla fighters in Iraq aged 18 and below who have died so are they going to heaven?? Isnt that contradicting itself.[/quote]20 years? is that what you feel or is that what the bible says? Show us where the age 20 is written in the bible 20 years? are you kidding me?

where in your bible did you read this? Its hard to convince the unbeliever when even those who profess the gospel don't understand it.

Paul the chiefest of apostles questioned his beliefs and even killed christians in Jerusalem and Antioch.'
Peter, the chief disciple, would not even eat with gentiles until Paul had to openly rebuke him.
Jonah bluntly refused to go to Nineveh . . . God did not kill Him for disobedience . . .

Knowing God is by reading His word line by line, asking questions whenever you run into a bottle neck but with a sincere desire to learn rather than with the mindset to disprove which sadly many of our resident athiests have.

From the old testament to the new, it is replete with men who dilligently read the books of the law and the prophets, studying to shew themselves approved unto God, not just sitting in a corner pretending to be in deep introspection . . . that is the tool of the psychologist.

What makes you feel you are right and he is wrong? what makes you feel you know the bible better than him? no wonder you spend all day and night fighting with the catholics and the prosperity gospel advocates on nairaland day in day out.  By the way was jesus's named changed  from esua or what ever it was to jesus? there is no jesus in armaic so why was his named changed? why was'nt the name of mohammed or any of the founders of the major religions changed? when esau was alive his name was'nt jesus was it?

Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence

Was jesus talking about the childeren of the indians, chinese or the jews? there is no where in the bible where it is written that children of other faith will go to heaven if there is then show us and prove us wrong. what about the adults ? what difference does it make it is written in the bible that god knows every body before they were born and he knew that people of other faiths will end up living and believing in their faiths which they have no control over because they never created them selves(according to the bible god created every body) and he decided to send them to hell after they die because they do not believe that jesus is the son of god and for that they will all rot in hell, by the way where and what is hell?

sarmy:
Trying to know God by the (letters) of the religion books will not only confuse you but may try to disconnect you from Him

You can only find God through your inner-self, reason why many think there is no God is because they are looking for God via letters of the holy books

If you sincerely want to know God, seek inner revelation of Him, you will find Him because His seed is inside of you. (even those that think He does not exist could find Him if they can diligently seek Him)

Ye are gods, man created god in his own image to help him answer the difficult and pesky questions about life and all the challenges and vagaries that comes with it, its purpose and what happens when a man dies.

davidylan:
thou hypocrite . . . Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

You see the problem with religion? instead of answering the questions which the poster asked which i believe he has no answers to he is engaging his fellow religion apologist in a war of my god/holy book i better than your god/holy book. utter nonsense. like some one just said and i quote

Most people don't even know why they believe what they believe, except that they were born into it and have been indoctrinated with it, yet, they look down on other similar people born and indoctrinated into something different, and pity them because they are not 'saved'.

davidylan:
the choice is yours.

Please provide your source? It is pure dishonest what you have written, above. Day of judgement will not come except that everyone would have died. It is then that day of judgement will begin, by ressurections of every one who ever lived.

The source is there for you to see, but since you have been blinded by dogma you have failed to see it. ohhh so the day of judgement will not come until every body on earth has died abi, ok very good keep on deluding your self.

ohije:
REALLY, IT SO AMAZING HOW PEOPLE DISOBEY SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN BY GOD BUT BLAMES HIM FOR THE TROUBLE WHICH THEIR DISOBEDIENCE IS CAUSING. Your friend should stop lazying around blaming God, without any apology, let him/her go find out the purpose he is existing here and fulfil it. And since he does not want to believe in God, I will like to assume he created himself, then let him answer all the questions by himself and if not, let him go back to his Bible and ask God who says " even before you were born, I knew you, "

So even before moslems, hindus,shirks,pallaguns,buddist etc were born the god of the bible knew they were going to be born into their various faiths and yet he does nothing about it and sends them to rot in hell for eternity for something they know and have no control over, does that sound sensible to you?

davidylan:
That's essentially not true, the atheist has no proof that God does not exist either.

Which of the gods? Allah? jehova?buddah?zues?sango?pahhlongon?shirk?horus? amunasa?masstata? which of them are you talking about?

madamkoko:
I agree!!!! they are gods of men.

You can say that again.

dot2002:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? King James Bible, Revelation 13:4

Expose them, do not be deceived for ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free, God Bliss

Get the Bleep out of here you deranged goat. go and keep yourself busy smoking the cow dung you are used to smoking. demented lizard.

olabowale:
@Queenisha: « #98 on: Yesterday at 08:32:41 PM »
I just stumbled on this. First thanks for standing up for me against my rambouscious woman, Lady rampant. The has some energy. I like people who stand their ground.

Now tell me, what is the position of Mary to God, or God's position to Mary, if both of them are the parents of Jesus? My dear, you are a very smart woman. It is Oga who is the father of your offspring. It is you who is the mother of Oga's offsprings. What is Oga to you, except the husband and in your language, the resident abunna? What are you to Oga, except the wife, and in your language and style the resident yam to be chopped at anytime?

Baby, explain to me what is the relationship of God with Mary, if you are sure of yourself. My being a carnal man does not make me unable to recognized facts that are under the heavens. What is above heavens, God has made us aware of them. We do not know when the day of Judgement will come for example. Neither did Jesus know it. Neither did Muhammad know it. Neither do Angels know it. Only God Almighty, alone is the Owner of that Information.


If you can not claim that God is the Husband of Mary and that Mary is the Wife of God, then know that this is another thing you should be wondering about, as you are wondering about "how could a God, Jesus, be crying out to Another God?" You see i quoted you without trying to put my own spin to it. I am looking at you in Hijab already. Gradually, you will be turned around.


I know that you have good and strong will and stable conscience. However, you are smart enough to recognize the truth. When Zainab is in New York, sometimes after her 2 or 3 weeks stay in China, starting from this coming weekend, I will put her on the line with you. She will tell you the mercy of God the almighty Allah on her! How she left darkness to Light upon Light.

olabowale will you shut the Bleep up and let people be? why are you always trying to prove that christainity is wrong? what makes islam right and christianity wrong? who is allah and where is he? why is allah better than jehova? and why are christains and jews his enemies and the enemies of his people? why does he plan to give unto the moslems christains and jews to kill before entering in to paradise as the following  Hadith proclaims "When judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or a Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire." - Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol 2, no. 5552.

you know nothing about christainity and christains know nothing about islam too, stop this my allah is better than you allah, if allah is real he would come and do all the explanations himself he wouldnt require your service because you have failed completely. so stop all these madness and self delusion. you deluded mohammed footsoldier.

nanayisha:
In my opinion, humans fear what they don't understand. Instead of researching and finding answers to lifes questions and misteries, we choose to fold our arms and attribute everything to GOd. Left to religion alone, man would never have gone to space, researched fire, techologies would be non-existent, malaria would be a terminal disease, a fracture would be treated by amputation.

I like your line of debate. It is a very Islamic way of arugment. You should always question what you don not understand. Allah in Quran urges us to question, challenge, pursue, research and solve the unknown. It shows in the history of the Islamic Renaissance which is traditionally dated from the 8th century to the 13th century, but has been extended to the 15th and 16th centuries by recent scholarship. During this period, engineers, scholars and traders in the Islamic world contributed to the arts, agriculture, economics, industry, law, literature, navigation, philosophy, sciences, and technology, both by preserving and building upon earlier traditions and by adding inventions and innovations of their own.[5] Howard R. Turner writes: "Muslim artists and scientists, princes and labourers together made a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent."

One must not be content with the thought of it is from GOD, thus we must not question it. They is no progressiveness in that. And why would you even want to follow such doctrine.

what the Bleep is islam? how can you explain this following Hadith which proclaims that "When judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or a Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire." - Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol 2, no. 5552? what is it with allah and death? why does he love death and destruction so much?
what explanation do you have about the hadith where the prophet of islam denounced a person for using his left hand and told people that it is sin to use their left hands. does he know the science and physiology surrounding left handedness?

what about all the kill the enemy verses in the koran? how do you explain and justify them. all you religious apologist should go and leave us alone we are tired of you selling and trying to prove that your god is the best of all the others.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=158829.msg2644342#msg2644342 date=1218528737]I'm feeling y'all, especially Okija Juju. And he isn't attributing those countries' progressiveness and our retrogressive ways here to religion:He's attributing it to their willingness to examine and challenge their beliefs- not just religion but all spheres- and our reluctance to do so.  We're indoctrinated and are unwilling to beam the searchlight on what we believe because we're afraid of what we might unearth. The question of fairness, salvation wise, remains unanwered so far.[/quote]The question of fairness salvation wise can never be answered, some christains are now making excuses and finding grey areas to imply that some moslems or people of other faiths are now qualified to make it into heaven even when that teaching is completely against the teaching of jesus and the bible, it is written unequivocally that jesus is the way the truth and the light and no one can see god unless through him besides there are so many other references that have been made in the bible that unequivocally states that belief in jesus and nobody else will make u see god, but because the moral ziegiest has shifted some christains are now making excuses and some are saying that you don't' necessarily have to believe in jesus to see god, if that is true then what is the purpose of christainity? why is it wrong to become a moslem, buddhist, shirk, hindu etc.

religion is a farce, because even in the christain religion there are so many religions each operationg as an individual entity and are mutaully exclusive from the others. most sects have very different beliefs and doctorines but they just use the general belief in the so called death and resurection of jesus to hide their differences. my pastor once told me that catholics, and white garment wearing christains are not really chriatains and for that they will all rot in hell. jehova witness believe that they are the choosen ones, the seven day adventist believe the same too. there are over 30,000 different sects in chriatianity each beliveing and postulating that they know and hold the ultimate truth while most of the others do not and for that they are not the true path and following them leads to nothing but perdition.

How many versions of the bible are there(over 70 translation of the ebglish version alone)? and when did the bible become the bible? some have 66 books and others have over 70 so how do we know which to accept and follow and which to discard? why can't christains come up with a universally acceptable book and doctorine?if there is a god he will not allow people to propagate his messages and ideals because people have failed completely in that regard, if there is a god he will propagate his messages and ideals himself.

All religions were created out of the fear of the many and the cleverness of a few.

[quote author=Okija_juju link=topic=158829.msg2643413#msg2643413 date=1218498054]So does this mean that he cannot see the future??
Cos if we all have free will that means that he does not know what i'll do next.


I believe you lost the plot.
A 1000 You$D says you were born into a christian family and raised in a christian family. You were brought up to believe Jesus is the son of God, Elijah went up to heaven in a chariot of fire, He resurrected from the dead, his blood cleanses you of all your sins, e.t.c. You have taken in everything hook, line and sinker. Many years of going to church and the fear of rapture has basically made you believe it is true. This is all you know, this is what you have been indoctrinated into believing is true, you have been told not to ask any questions.

Now lets switch it. You were born in Afghanistan, into the house of an Islamic cleric, grew up in a muslim society, surrounded by muslim family friends, attented an Islamic school, frew up in an Islamic environment, raised in the ways of islam, pilgrimed in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Isreal, attended the mosque from birth, taught that Mohammed is a prophet of God, Virgins waiting for you in heaven, e.t.c. You die a muslim. So the question is simple, is this justifiable grounds for you to go to hell??

How sure are you that your religion is actually the right religion?? The buddists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Eckkists, and countless other religions that prevail the world over, why are you so convinced that christianity is the true religion??

Well l am not an advocate of the evolution theory, but creation is just downright ridiculous.
Speaking about the bible account of the origin of the world, I am a geologist, and we have found fossils and dated them using carbon-dating thecnique which shows that the world is way older than the bible is implying. There are fossils that predate even human existence, so how then does the bible justify its claims. You talk about the human flaws and the accuracy of the dating tools, well I think this arguement is downright ridiculous because these machines have been tried, tested and have proven to be accurate with just about a little negligible margin of error.

My dear trees are not evidence of the existence of God. It simply means that the soil on which that tree is growing is suitable for it to trive. The nutrients and soil conditions suits it very well. take away certain things and it will wither.Science has established that fact.
The existence of God can never be proven because all religions are based on the same foundation which is believing without seeing (FAITH). Which as far as I am concerned is not acceptable. Moses supposedly saw God, so he was justified in his belief, why should I live my life in fear based on hearsay documented by some unknown fellow who lived several generations after the event and whose account is based on stories passed down several generations before his existence. The margin of error in the bible is way too big for me to swallow whole.
We need proof.


To the contrary I think you are wrong here. Look at the example as documented in the bible. God gave permission to Satan to hurt Job in any form he wanted but he should not kill him. That does not sit well for a God who does not want us to hurt. Job believed in him, worshipped, e.t.c. Even the Devil bore him witness before God, who could be more righteous than Job?? SO if job could get messed up, who are you.


In my opinion, humans fear what they don't understand. Instead of researching and finding answers to lifes questions and misteries, we choose to fold our arms and attribute everything to GOd. Left to religion alone, man would never have gone to space, researched fire, techologies would be non-existent, malaria would be a terminal disease, a fracture would be treated by amputation.
I was born into a christian home, was raised in a christian home, by christian parents, e.t.c. But until certain thing are revealed to me in black and white beyond reasonable doubt, I have chosen not be a part of the confusion called religion.[/quote]this is my story too i could'nt have explained it better than you just did. wellcome to the era of reasoning instead of blind faith and believeing in meaningless dogma. that's why africa and nigeria ín particular is still the way it is.(retogressing)

she said she doesnt kno'w huxley, let her be pls.

@ jesoul there is no letter J in the armaic language and his name was'nt jesus that i know for sure it was change to jesus by the greeks.

About your comment on Jesus changing His name where is it recorded that Jesus changed His name?

His name was never jesus when he was alive but esua he is the only prophet in history whose name was change from his original name which was esau to jesus which is greek. but any way hold unto your belief and faith its good.

JeSoul:
Alright . . .
Now there is no question that millions of people have lived and died without knowing or ever hearing the Name Jesus. Will these people end up in hell simply because they weren't 'fortunate' to have heard about Jesus? No, of course not that would be grossly unfair and the bible tells us that God is a just God.
The bible does not give a definitive answer on this, but because we know that God is just, we can have faith(that all-important element) that He has already laid out another way for them to be possibly saved, or perhaps they'll be judged in a different way, I cannot say for certain. But what I'm certain about is that God is just and fair.
Every denomination claims to be the right way, I know that myself . So who is right? it is a very valid question. And it comes down to faith. The bible teaches that the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus Christ - and I believe it. I cannot prove to you my belief, because it is based on faith and the witness of the Spirit of God in my heart. That's why each person has to find God for themselves.

Now this begs the question, what about those who have faith in their gods? islam? hindus? etc . . . The difference is a relationship with the God of the bible is so real and personal it does not need outward validation. God reveals Himself to me in many ways, and when I see His words and promises manifested in my life daily, it convinces me further that He is real. Unfortunately my experience is not transferrable so that I can "prove" and show to you why I persist in Him, God is personal to each person, you have to find Him for yourself.
Part of the beauty of the God in the bible is that He uses and accomplishes great things through feeble human beings. So that in doing so we recognize His greatness in pulling off such a feat. And who says "people have failed completely in doing so"? Someone preached the gospel to me, and I believed it. And have continued to believe it for many years - I would say that person (Godbless him) did not fail at all.

Thanks for your honest answers. you tried to answer to the best of your abilities which is cool to me. am not convinced but keep it real is all i have to say.

marod:
The following is written in a language that is intended as an
`Invitation' (Daw'ah) to Christians, who have confused the
concept of "Spirit of Truth" (a Paraclete) with "Holy Spirit".

Moses and Isaiah PROPHESIED the coming of JESUS.
Did Jesus and Isaiah PROPHESY the coming of MUHAMMAD?



To understand the prophecies made by Jesus on the subject, one has to begin with the First Epistle of John, Chapter 2, Verse 1. Here, Jesus Christ is called a "Paraclete" (Parakletos, Advocate, Comforter, Helper) by apostle John. The same term "Paraclete" is used by the apostle in his Gospel, in connection with a portentous prophecy made by Jesus Christ, before the end of his ministry upon this earth, for the coming of "another Paraclete". Prophet Moses also made a similar prophecy, before the end of his ministry, for the coming of his successor. Jesus Christ declared;

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)."

John 14:16

Note: We often read the verse ending as; "with you for ever". However; "into the age" is the literal translation of the Greek phrase; `eis ton aiona', used by John.

These two verses by John clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ, while speaking of "another Paraclete", was speaking of the coming of "another male figure" like himself, some time in the future, after his departure. The passage quoted below also confirms that the original concept among the noted Christian scholars and populace, for the "Paraclete" was for the coming of a "male figure", but that concept was later confused with the "Holy Spirit". Here is an extract from the world renowned and distinguished Anchor Bible Volume 29A:

"The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In 1John ii1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. , Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Butlmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135).

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ, besides being a "Messiah" was also a prophet like Moses, by his own admission. Please see John 5:46 and 9:17. Hence to say that the coming of "another Paraclete" was similar to the coming of "another Prophet" like Jesus and Moses, would not be inaccurate. OTOH, the concept of "Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by the following verse:

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7

This verse clearly tells us that the coming of the Paraclete was subject to the departure of Jesus. Whereas, the "Holy Spirit" was already present. It was in existence since the day of the Creation and was hovering upon the surface of the earth (Genesis 1:2). It was also present with the prophets of the Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit" happened to be present at River Jordan when Jesus Christ was being Baptised by John the Baptist, in the early part of his ministry. So, how could Jesus say; "but if I go, I will send Holy Spirit"?

"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26

This above verse clears the confusion. The Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure, whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it".

"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26

Note: 1. In the older MSS, Codex Syriacus discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit". "The Spirit" is a reference to "the Spirit of Truth" as in 15:26.

2. The word spirit, Greek. `pneu'ma', is of neutral gender and takes pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete quoted above and below, the pronoun used is "he".

3. In 1 John 4:6, the terms "the spirit of truth" and "the spirit of error" are used for the human beings.

4. History records that prophet Muhammad was known for his Truth and Honesty, long before he received the Revelations.

Jesus Christ did indicate what the Paraclete to come will do in his time. Did prophet Muhammad do those things? Let's examine;

1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak, " Jn.16:13

Note: The Quran is a compilation of the "Divine Revelations" that were received by prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, through the arch angel Gabriel. The prophet used to recite whatever he used to hear. Prophet's companions used to write down whatever was recited. The Quran does not contain the writings or teachings of or by Muhammad, as often mentioned by some misinformed authors.

2. "He shall glorify me." John 16:14

Note: The Quran glorifies the birth of Jesus through Virgin Mary. The Quran also confirms, Jesus was a Messiah; a Messenger of God; the Spirit from God; the Word of God and the Righteous Prophet.

3. "He shall take mine and shall disclose it to you." Jn.16:14

Note: Muhammad did declare himself a Messenger of God like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

4. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26

Note: The Quran teaches a way of life. It guides mankind, how to live a pious life socially, politically and spiritually.

5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Jn.14:26

Note: The Quran speaks about the teaching of the righteous Jesus and even quotes him.

6. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26

Note: The Quran attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded. The Quran acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of Allah, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13 (NASB).

Prophet Isaiah is considered to be one of the major prophets of the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah there are several prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. In chapter 42, Isaiah begins with a prophecy for the coming of prophet Jesus. After verse number nine, God declares through Isaiah, the "new things" that are to "spring forth" in the Land of Kedar.

In the Bible there is only one personality called Kedar. He was the grandson of prophet Abraham, through his son Ishmael (see Gen.25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in Paran (Syno-Arabian dessert). In the Rabbinic literature Arabia is called the "Land of Kedar". Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.

God declares through Isaiah;

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.

God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad - a direct descendant of Kedar, a "New Song" - The Qur'an (Koran). This happens to be the only Scripture to be revealed in the language of the Kedarites. The verses of the Qur'an are recited like a poem. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this "new song" and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca. There are several mountains near Mecca. During the annual Islamic Pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all over the world, assemble in Mecca and shout Glory to the Lord from the top of Mount Arafat. The pilgrims continuously give Glory to Allah on their ways, to and from Mecca.

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Verse 13.

In the Old Testament the God often speaks "I" will do this, or "I" have done this; whereas, He has chosen human beings like us, to do these jobs. (see 2 Samuel 12:7-12). Muhammad did go forth as a mighty prophet of Allah, did stir up jealousy among the most influential and dominating tribe of the pagan Arabs in Arabia. Finally with a war cry and roar, Muhammad did prevail upon the enemies of Lord - the idolaters, fulfilling the above prophecy.

"I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14.

The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with peaceful missions. But, the concept of sharing God's Glory continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was with the war cry, through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), these sinful practices were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once.

"And I will bring the blind by a way they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them." Verse 16.

It is an undeniable fact that before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arabs were like the blinds. Their religious and social concepts were crooked. The revelation of this "new song" brought them out of that darkness. Earlier, God had not sent any prophet to these people. By sending Muhammad, God fulfilled His above promise and also the following promise to Abraham;

"And also of the son of the bondwoman I will make a nation, because he is thy seed." Genesis 21:13.

Please note the word "also" in above promise. The nations of Judaism and Christianity came out from the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. The nation of Islam came out from the descendants of Abraham and Hagar. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three children of Abraham by God's Covenants with Abraham.

This also fulfils the following prophecy by Jesus;

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but what soever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you thing to come." John 16:13

For further details about "the Paraclete" and "the Spirit of Truth" please see Section 1 of this article.

"They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images; they say to the molten images, `Ye are our gods.'" Isaiah 42 Verse 17.

History records that Prophet Muhammad did put the pagan idolaters to great shame when he demolished before them, their 365 idols that were installed in Ka'bah (Mecca), the most respected place of pilgrimage in the whole of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah is the Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from all over the world face towards Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual prayers.

and your point is?