₦airaland Forum

[quote author=Mr_Anony]The verse implied the plunder, but i can see how your fault-finding bias would paint the wrong way.[/quote]Kill every body, after killing, pile up the plunder and burn everything, the whole town with everything in it as an offering to yahweh is what was written. . .Your selective reading will also paint it the wrong way. . .

frosbel: It is fake but it does exist which is why I try to lead my Muslims brethren to the Truth , at least they believe that God exists, right ?

Allah exist or what are you saying?. . .You are trying to lead muslims to what "truth"?. . .Their own truth is better than yours, pls go and ask them. . .There is no except allah and mohammed is his messenger, it is written in allah's book the koran, and that is the ultimate truth. . .

So atheists are not bothered about the origin of man , despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary , lol.

Some atheist are bothered others are not, personally i am not bothered at all, if the origin of man is discovered scientifically fine, if it isn't am very cool with that. . .Science is what will discover the origin of man if it is to be discovered not baseless myths and counter myths like the one your subscribe to. . .

Yes

Yahweh spoke to you personally and told you that he told people to write the bible?. . .What language did he speak and how did his voice sound like. . .

simply , we are the body of Christ as it were and are his ambassadors here on Earth .

But you are failing at the job, you are doing it very poorly. . .Over 33,000 sects each arguing and fighting over basic things like trinity and if Jesus is god himself or the son of god. . .

Yep

God wants a relationship with men, and you are the one telling people about it?. . . . . .Why can't he do it himself since it is something that he WANTS?. . .

Hmmm. . Not sure what sense this is supposed to make

If you want a personal relationship with some one you go meet the person yourself and do your bidding yourself. . .

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." - John 14:15 -16

Every body lay claims to the holy spirit and see how badly you guys are doing. . .After all Oladegbuu claims the holy spirit told him the earth was created in 6 literal days 6000 years ago. . .The claim to holy spirit is a waste of time. . .Joababage and pastor David Oyedepo all claim the holy spirit told them that Jesus wants every body to be rich and prosperous. .

Your case is even worse than you care to imagine.

You exist for absolutely no other reason than to fulfil the lusts of the flesh and Die !! How pathetic.

Every body will die, because you have been indoctrinated with the fantasy of life after death doesn't make it true. . .It remains a fantasy. . .

frosbel: He was trying to advice his brethren to stop arguing with stiff necked scoffers like yourself who while denying Christ , cannot help but be drawn into episodes of mockery and ridicule of Him. I mean if he does not exist why bother ?

Like your endless rants and scoffing of mohammed and allah. . .Why bother and waste your time over something that is fake?. . .

Besides what is not a fantasy in atheism Everything is fantasy in atheism and is based on fallacy, wishful thinking, cobbled up fables , unproven theories, assumptions, presumptions and all manner of madness that has not resulted in the atheists discovering one iota of truth about the origin of man.

So atheism is now about discovering the origin of man, eh?. .interesting. . .Did any god appear to you personally and told you that he told any body to write the bible?. . .If your god exist as advitersied why then are you doing his work for him? I thought he is alll powerful and wants a relationship with humans?. . .Did someone woo your wife for you, did all the talking , take her on all the dates etc when you wanted a personal relationship with her before you got married?. . .Why should you and your cohorts be doing the bidding of an entity that can speak for himself and wants a relationship with other humans, doesnt that show you that your assertions have no basis and is completely illogical?. . .

In other words arguing for argument sake.

Yo don't klnow what you are talking about. . .[/quote]

cyrexx: wow. i never saw it from that light. thanks for the insight.

if, like other christians, he had said that his beliefs is based on faith, i wont have problem with him. but trying to use logic to prove his faith is a blunder of all blunders.

the bad thing is that he will never see when his logic fails but he will keep twisting and twisting things and close his eyes to the fact that you cant prove any religious faith with logical reasoning.

Thats why i like davidlylan, he remains the most honest christian here, the others are mostly liars that don't even know what they are talking about. . .I just read the nonsense they type and laugh all the time. . .example logicboy says the bible supports slavery, and Mr_anony comes up with some convoluted excuses like if logic boy has ever lied that means he is a liar. . . . . .Forgetting that yahweh himself was the one giving laws and telling people how to sell their own daugters into slavery. . .Sometimes you just read these people and laugh all day in the office. . .


Argument from silence, indeed, he should tell us when yahweh personally told him he told any body to write any book on his behalf. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]You believe what you wanted to believe. . . . . . because even with Abraham, you cannot show God accepting human sacrifice[/quote]The inhabitants of a whole town were to be killed and sacrificed as a burnt offering unto yahweh. . .

Ihedinobi: We have careers to express Christ in, family issues to bring under His Rule and Authority, relationships to carry on under His Eye, businesses to build to provide His solutions to societal problems, political issues to offer sanctified opinions in. And we insist on winning those who have rejected to be (edit) convinced by argument? Why?.

You claim, christ is alive, all power, all knowing, all powerful, can do all things and wants a relationship with humans, yet you are the one doing his bidding for him? When will you allow christ do his bidding for himself?. . .I thought he wanted relationship with humans? Why depend on a failure like you to do his bidding for him?. . .Doesnt the fact that you are the one trying to sell christ to others a deity that is said to be alive and can do all things tell you that you are just trying to pass your own thoughts, ideas and fantasies to others just as others have passed theirs to you?. . .

Delafruita: close to tears?more appropiate would have been "close to total dementia"

[quote author=Mr_Anony]..........all this because the bible isn't saying what you want it to say.[/quote]The bible has already said what it says. . .Yahweh accepts humans sacrifice. . .After all he even told Abraham to sacrifice his son unto him. . .

cyrexx: welcome to the club, you are beginning to understand unique styles of the master of artful dodging. he will twist issues like a lawyer who is desperate to win a losing case by all means as if his whole life depends on it.

i guess he is a lawyer in real life.

The very existence of yahweh is arguing from Silence since yahweh did not tell him personally that he told any body to write any book on his behalf. . .If we are to play his games his entire belief is argument from silence, since he has never heard yahweh tell him anything personally about the bible. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]My friend, anyone can create an elaborate argument from silence. that is the job of conspiracy theorists. Your argument holds little or no value[/quote]You are the one creating your own conspiracies from silence, firstly, you tried to brush it off as some jewish sect not believing that she was sacrificed, when you saw that that claim holds no water, now its yahweh did not accept because the bible did not say so, if that is the case then, everything about christianity is arguing from silence. . .Since everything about the religion begins and ends with men and what they chose to say or write about their god. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Did Yahweh accept his sacrifice? No He didn't. Yahweh was silent. . . .keep arguing from silence.[/quote]Yahweh was silent?. . .Where did he reject it?. ..Keep lying for Jesus. . .He made a vow and he said he could not go back, if yahweh wasnt going to accept his burnt offering, he would have told him not to go ahead with it, but he let him do to his daughter as he vowed(sacrifice her as a burnt offering). . .Keep lying. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Again, arguing from silence. Silence does not automatically mean yes neither does it mean no. It is just silence. It is interesting to note that whenever you have argued against the bible, you have always had to use what the bible didn't say and then draw conclusions from it. That is how not to argue.

As for the other bible verse you dropped, it has been shown on this thread that you are just reading your own meaning into what you saw.[/quote]You can keep using your funny tricks to delude yourself. . .Did he sacrifice his daughter as a burnt offering to Yahweh? yes he did. .Did he inform Yahweh that he was going to sacrifice what ever comes of of his house as a burnt offering, yes. . .Did Yahweh reject his sacrifice, no he didn't. . .Keep displying your dishonest tactics. . .As for the other verse, the entire town with all the dead people and plunder was to be burnt as a burnt offering unto yahweh. . .Keep lying for Jesus. .

davidylan: God's purpose is not to use magical tricks to prove Himself to those who have made up their minds NEVER to believe anyway. Jesus is as real to those who seek Him with ALL SINCERITY not those who only seek Him for money, fame and recognition. I doubt you've ever read the bible before... if you had you might have realized that God Himself said in the book of James that we ask and recieve not because we do so... not out of His will but of our own selfish desires. What would be the purpose of praying to God to deal with you?

But the bible says in other parts that if you ask and truly believe what ever you ask will be given to you, pls pray and ask your god to eradicate malaria in africa, its not a selfish request and its definitely not asking amiss, no?. .

I agree with you... but isnt it strange that you park yourself DAILY and for HOURS at a stretch on threads solely discussing this same christian God you despise and claim exists only in our imagination? I cant imagine spending a fraction of an hour talking about the validity of Sango's existence.

But you spend hour on end showing the muslims that allah is a false god, no?. . .Before the islam section got a very strict moderator most of your post and time was spent there, no?. . .Why spend all day ranting and raving about a non existent and imaginary allah?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]@mazaje, your are arguing besides the point even if Jephthah actually burnt his daughter, it still doesn't prove that it was with God's consent.

The task for you is to show us explicitly where God accepts this alleged human sacrifice either by showing us a verse where God demands it from Jephthah or a verse where God commends Jephthah for it. You still haven't done this.

(...and please don't argue from silence)[/quote]He(Jepthah) actually did according to the bible. . .Yahweh accepting his daughter as a burnt offering is enough, If he didnt want he would have rejected, no?. . .A city with dead inhabitants and plunder were to be sacrificed as a burnt offering unto Yahweh. . .I dropped the bible verse for you. . .

davidylan: I certainly do not agree with the NLT on that and very few translations (particularly the older translations) certainly disagree that she died on a stake.

Another lie. . .The all the versions said he did to her according to what he had vowed, and his vow was to sacrifice anything that comes out of his house as a burnt offering. . .Keep lying for Jesus. . .

davidylan: Please can you provide the verse that expressly states that she DIED? I too hate dishonesty and i believe you are not engaging in such. I have such high faith in you that you will provide that verse in clear terms for me. Over to you.

Jdg 11:39 When she returned home, her father kept the vow he had made, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel
Jdg 11:40 for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter. NLT. . .

davidylan: I have responded to this several times but it seems you have no use for rational thinking but prefer to push your own preset biased opinion regardless. Again i ask, what have verses 39 and 40 got to do with what exactly her "sacrifice" was? So going up 4 days a year to lament her "fate" automatically means she was burnt alive? Absurd.
Like i said... if she really was burnt alive, it seems a tad strange that the only reason she went off to mourn for 2 months was the loss of her s[i]e[/i]x life. If i had 60 days to die i think there would be more important things to worry about no?

I hate dishonesty and you are displaying one here, just giving the bible your own soft interpretation to exp[lain absurdity away. . .Did he father made a vow to sacrifice her as a burnt offering or to make her celibate? Stop LYING. . .The verse said he father did to her as he VOWED and the vow was to sacrifice her as a burnt offering. . .Sure, she mourned her not being able to marry cos she was a virgin and the passage immediately said she died a virgin. . .He father did to he as he vowed. .What was his vow?. . Stop lying. . .The text is very clear, he father vowed and stated that he can not go back on his vow, the vow was to sacrifice her as a burnt offering, he cried and tore his cloths, if he was only offering her as a nun for Yahweh why should he cry and tear up his cloths, remember others happily handed their kids to Yahweh to become nuns etc, why did he cry and tear up his cloths?. . .What was her fathers vow? You dont want to touch it. .You keep lying about non issues, saying God does not break his laws in the bible when we have the same bible talking about God doing evil and apologizing for his evil deeds and breaking his own laws and repenting. . .Keep on deluding yourself. . .

[img]http://2.bp..com/_6NqiahIEU_o/StXJtFSSwfI/AAAAAAAAAA8/-qLARvVGCEE/s1600/IMG_0203.jpg[/img]

This type of toilets are the best. . .You use tissues and then they help your wash off after wards. .

davidylan: not true. the problem is you already have a biased view in your mind so everything else is chalked down to "making up excuses". That is the issue i have with most atheists... they seem to have a huge problem with objectivity. Only the view that sheds a negative light on the bible is ever to be considered.

1. Yes there are cases of God "repenting" for His actions but they are few and far between and this is certainly NOT one of them. If indeed this was a real "burnt offering" then why did God then go ahead to condemn the jews for doing exactly what Jephthah is alleged to have done? couldnt they just have used this as an excuse?

2. Yes the story tells us that the girl encourages her father to do according to his vow but what does that tell us with regard to the vow specifically? What was your point here? Didnt Samuel also encourage his mother to fullfil her vow to the Lord of giving him up to the temple?

3. We can glean from the chapter that the vow had a lot to do with her celibacy. Her virginity is emphasized THREE SEPARATE times in two verses and the only reason she goes off for 2 months to lament with her friends is about the loss of her s[i]e[/i]x life and not her life, family, friends and land? Unfortunately, i do not expect you to take 2 secs to think on these issues. For you... a negative light on the bible is all you need to run away and make outlandish claims.

Jepthah made a vow to sacrifice what ever comes out of his house to meet him, his daughter came, he cried and tore off his cloths, the verse then said he did to her as he vowed. . .It also said she and her friend mourned cos she will never get married. . .Another translation said she died a virgin. . .How can she die if she was handed over to Yahweh as a nun?. . .

Jdg 11:39 When she returned home, her father kept the vow he had made, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel
Jdg 11:40 for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter.

It even became a custom for young ladies to go away for four days each year to lament her faith. . .You are just making things up brother. . .

davidylan: i posted from the KJV and your version was?

New living translation. . .

davidylan: that is what is written by the guy you copied the claims from. I posted the verse directly from the bible, it says no such thing. you folks can be nauseatingly dishonest.

You posted from another bible version. . .What I posted was lifted directly from the bible version as well. . .So what are you on about?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Please mazaje, stop being dishonest (notice the part I highlighted)
The order was thus:
Step 1: when you hear such a report investigate and find out if it is true
Step 2: If it is true, attack the city and kill everyone as well as their lifestock
Step 3: Then pile up all the plunder and burn it
Step 4: Set the town on fire, it shall be a burnt offering to God
Step 5: Make sure you don't keep any of the plunder for yourself

Now what you have done is to equate burning of the town (the plunder) to human sacrifice. This is just simply being dishonest.

It is funny how you are willing to bend the truth just to make your point even though it is very clear that God in this case is not referring to the human beings - or even the animals - as the sacrifice.[/quote]The entire town with all its dead inhabitants and plunder are to be put to touch as a burnt offering is what was written. . .

davidylan: Again read my post. I have not twisted anything... just established 3 things that any objective individual should be able to consider:

1. the bible God is EXPRESSLY against human burnt offerings and mentions such more than 10 times in the bible.

2. Is it logical to assume He changed this rule just for one individual in the entire bible?

3. Why is a woman supposedly about to die worried ONLY about the loss of a s[i]e[/i]xual life? Not her family, friends, land, hobbies?

What was twisted there? Where is the apologetics? We have numerous examples of people whose lives were consecrated to the Lord as celibates for life so what is new?

You are just making up explanations on your own sorry. . .He made a vow according to the story, we know that the bible talks about God going against his own words sometimes. . .Some times he regrets his actions and lets his people know that he regrets his actions. . .There are passages about God apologizing or repenting for some of his actions in the bible. . .So claiming that Yahweh does not change his rules is absurd. . .The story also has the girl telling her father to go ahead and do to her what he had vowed to his God. . .[color=#000099[b]]And she said unto him, My father, [if] thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth[/b]; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, [even] of the children of Ammon.[/color]

Was the vow he made to make her a celibate unto God or to sacrifice her as a burnt offering?. . .

davidylan: you just repeated Judges 11 and said nothing new. I quoted the same chapter so i know what is there... what was the point requoting it? Here was i thinking you had new information to help us understand the passage better.

First of all i established from the same bible that human sacrifice such as that you falsely allude to jephthah was an abomination to the Lord.
Secondly, it is quite obvious that Jephthah's daughter was being consecrated to the Lord as a "nun" not to be burnt at a stake as a literal burnt offering. What you have mischievously done is DELIBERATELY read only one literal meaning to that verse while sticking your head in the sand at other possible explanations all because you have a preconcieved point to make against the bible.

Why would a woman supposedly about to die be bothered solely about her inability to have s[i]e[/i]x? Not once is she bothered about her family, country, friends?

. . .Normally I usually respect your opinions because of your honesty, we disagree all the time but you are consistent and honest in your submissions. . you don't go the extra mile to twist things as others here do. . .But on this one am just laughing cos your apologetics credential isnt that bad compared to that of others after all. . .Nun?. . . . . .Lets just agree to disagree. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]You are the one being dishonest....You claim that God accepted the sacrifice, for this claim to be true, you have to explicitly show from scripture where God demands the sacrifice or you show where God commends Jepthah for making the sacrifice. You have shown none of the above. (...and please don't make arguments from silence)[/quote]Here is Yaweh requesting for the inhabitants of a city to be sacrificed to him as a burnt sacrifice. . .

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." Deuteronomy 13:13-19

davidylan: that is not true.

1. The bible standard on human sacrifice is pretty strict - Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

2. So did God ignore the above just for the sake of Jephthah alone in the entire bible? Absolutely no.

3. So what really happened to Jephthah's daughter? Easy - she wasnt "burnt" as you would think if you literarily read the bible without any understanding at all. For example - Judges 11:36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

Hmmm for someone who was supposedly about to die by fire, she seems to be only interested in the fact that she would never marry? Odd. She doesnt seem to be in the least concerned that she would never see her family or friends again. Not once is she worried about not seeing her beloved country again. She is not fussed about not having kids... all she seems to be interested in mourning is the loss of a potential s[i]e[/i]x life with some dude?

You are lying again. . Here is what is written in the bible. . .He made an oath to Yaweh according to the story. .Here is what was written about him

"Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, a[b]nd I will offer it up for as a burnt offering[/b]. (Judges 11:31)

The victorious Jephthah is met on his return by his daughter, his only child. Jephthah tears his clothes and cries, "Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low!" but is bound by his vow: "I have given my word to God, and I cannot go back on it." (Judges 11:35).

38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

He did to her as he had vowed. What was his vow? To sacrifice what ever comes out of his house as a burnt offering, he told her he made a vow and could not go back, he even cried and tore his cloths when his only daughter came out to meet him .The story says she died a virgin. . .Sure she was worried about not getting married because she was a virgin. . .Many people will like to grow up and get married some day. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Question is did Yahweh tell him to do it? Did Yahweh commend him for doing it? (Now as much as possible, please don't argue from silence i.e. don't assume claims that the bible has not made)

By the way, some factions of Jewish tradition hold it that she wasn't really sacrificed as a burnt offering but was dedicated to service to God as a virgin for the rest of her life[/quote]You are here with your dishonesty. . .The bible said she was sacrificed as a burnt offering. . .Weather Yahweh told him to do it or not is not the issue here, the issue is that he accepted a virgin as a burnt offering. . .End of story. . . Claiming that the Aztechs were wrong for sacrificing virgins makes no point since some people in the Old testament also accepted virgins. . And YES Yahweh did request for people to be sacrificed to him as burnt offerings in other parts of the bible. .

davidylan: the only thing i could understand from this post was that you of course are on the side of man being moral by default. Aside from that, you just rambled on without making a coherent point.

Morality without christianity is relative. For example... the aztecs think it is morally ok to sacrifice young virgin girls to the gods... what about you?

Yahweh also accepted human sacrifice no?. . . Jephthah sacrificed his virgin daughter to Yahweh as a burnt offering, no?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]The funny thing is that the bible claims these "extraordinary events" as extraordinary events and not as common everyday occurrences. When the bible describes a miracle, it does not try to make it seem like an everyday event else it wouldn't be worth mentioning.
When you disbelieve such events, all you are really saying is that it is beyond your experience and to immediately brand something as untrue simply because it is beyond your experience is a bad form of ignorance.[/quote]The problem is all these events ONLY happen on the pages of story books, men walking on water, healing amputees, virgin birth, global flood, dead people rising and walking all over the streets, men living inside a fish for days etc. . .Men were only building tower to reach the heavens and stars fighting along side men happen only in the pages of story books, they do NOT happen in real life that is why they are called fiction and myths. . .The bible is mainly fiction and myth just as superman is. . .Most of the things reported are NOT real. . .Even Jesus PROMISED those of you that believe in him the ability to do greater things than were written about him for just believing in him. . .The day you or any lying christian that talks about miracles will heal an amputee and restore his limbs back to the way it was in the name of Jesus as PROMISED that will be the day I will beging to take you guys seriously, until then yiu can keep giving excuses for agelong myths and fictions. . .

plaetton: To support this belief, Ihedinobi asked me how I was certain that snakes did not talk. In other words, He demanded proof from me that snakes did not talk.
Can you believe these guys?

Of course snakes talk. . .But the only talk in stories not in reality. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Says mazaje's opinion[/quote]Its a fact that religious "truths" are all relative. . .

Incidentally the one point "you just wanted to deal with" was copied verbatim from the video summary pasted here by me. I hear you.

Nothing wrong with that na. . .Abi?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Wrong! Truth is truth, religions are opinions which may be true or untrue. Not everything is relative.[/quote]Religious truths are all opinions. . .

I don't think you've watched the video yet. You are only arguing based on the short summary.

I watched the video, I just wanted to deal with one point at a time. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Lol, this is where I disagree with you: truth is never relative. Truth is always independent of personal opinion. Perhaps, the reason you don't accept an answer as meaningful is because you don't even know what meaning is since everything for you is based on relative opinions but that's by the way, let's move on.[/quote]Lets cut the all the chase here, we are talking about religious "truth" here arent we?. . .It is always based on personal opinion and that is a fact. . .When it comes to religion EVERYTHING is relative and based on opinions and counter opinions. . .

Here comes your dilemma: How can you know for sure if his opinion is sound or not when all you have are your own opinions which which other people also consider not to be sound? I'll leave that as an aside for now.

Let me hear your thoughts on the matter: Why is John Gray's stance faulty?

He claims that a truly secular worldview does not permit the hope of humanism; humanism, says Gray, is simply the Christian faith delivered in secular terms. This is completely false and has no evidence to support it. . .All world views are a creation of humans and as such his premise is false. . .