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Why didn't she abort the pregnancy?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]you are one funny dude, why is understanding and reasoning so difficult for you. A stray bullet and paralysis are things beyond my control therefore, I can't allow it to happen to my child. Now assuming they were within my control, then I could allow it to happen.
It is only when something beyond your control happens to you that you can call it a disaster or suffering. If something is within your control, then it cannot be termed as suffering.
You have created a false analogy where you assume my omnipotence/omniscience for the sake of the analogy and then when I have answered you based on it, you then demand that I display the attributes bestowed upon me in the analogy. You can't put me in God's shoes for the sake of an analogy and then ask me to display omniscience outside the analogy. That is unreasonable.
It is as if I asked you to "assuming you were a donkey, will you need to bray?" and when you say yes I immediately demand that you bray like a donkey or else you are lying. That is how not to reason.[/quote]Here we go again with the ridiculous tactics, you always talk about a greater purpose, name one and you can't since you can't then stop talking about a non existence elusive purpose. . .You are making stuffs as usual, i wonder why you do that most of the time, no where did i assume you had omnipotence/omniscience that is your own making, you made a claim and i simply challenged you to it. The fact that you have no answer to it but prefer to dance around it says it all. . .

Uhm no, prayer is not a man telling God what to do, prayer is a man pleading with God and hoping that God is gracious to him.
My assertion is that God is not subject to man's will much like you are not subject to my will just because you agree with me.

Another lie. . Prayer is man TELLING his god what to do. . .When you pray for healing or protection you are telling your god to do your will, when you pray for victory in a battle you are doing the same. . .I have given you examples in the bible where Yahweh had to change his will and do the will of man because men asked him to do so. . .You claimed god does not do man's will and I have said the bible shows you don't know what you are saying because the bible talks about god doing man's will if man ask with belief in his heart. . .Why pray for protection or favour in the first place?. . .Prayer is man telling god to do his will through pleading but the end result is that man wants what ever god he worships to do his will. . .

Lol, I was relaxing on my own when you started asking the questions.......then after I have answered you as best as I could, you are now scolding me for answering your questions. You are such a funny character.

You are playing the games you always play. . You always claim to know what god wants, how he thinks, how he structures things, that is what you do here all the time, speak for god and claim you know why he does things..but when asked to explain you run away using words that you are not god..why engage in the first place by claiming you know how god does things only to crawl and run when asked questions?. . .If you don't know how god reasons then why are you telling people about him in the first place? why don't you let him speak for himself, after all he wants to be in a relationship with people so he has to woe them himself no?. . .One moment you are telling people about what god wants, how he is what he dislikes, another moment you don't know how he reasons, how do you know what he wants in the first place?. . .

No he asks me yet another question...well, I have never implied that the soul alone matters, What I have pointed at is that the soul matters much more than the body.

You should know me by now, i don't have time dwelling on mythologies, soul? Evidence that the soul exist is what?. . .If you can provide scientific evidence of the soul existing outside the body then i will take you and your soul talk seriously, but for now i won'tr dwell on your mythical constructs. . .You are yet to show how your god is all loving or all good, you just keep jumping from one incoherence to another. . .

Lol, what part of God is omniscient don't you understand?

How is your good all loving and all good?. . .An all loving god will at least protect his own that call onto his name for protection no?. . .

Lol, where exactly did God fail geniune christians? Did God lock them out of Heaven? Because that is the promise God made to those who love Him. As for sufferings, it is our lot s long as we are still here on earth.

Another lie. . .You just throw words around as if that is what the bible says. . .Who the hell is talking about heaven?. . .The bible talks about god promising to protect his own the way a father will protect his young child, we don;t see that happening, christians are not being better protected or suffer less harm and misfortune than non christians despite the promise of fatherly protection. . .

When you stab a baby with a needle in the name of vaccination, the baby suffers pain that it doesn't understand but you who has more knowledge allows the baby to go through such pain for a purpose. Suffering here is good even though the baby does not understand why her father would let those evil doctors hurt her, she just has to trust her father. The pain she feels is not proof that her father does not love her neither is it proof that her father doesn't exist.

The child with a needle stab for vaccination suffers pain, by the way a child can be made to understand that the injection is for his own good. . .What good is there in letting a person who is out on a mission for you who asked you to protect him in your name as you promised but he ended up in an accident and was left paralyzed for the rest of his life. .Firstly the childs parents did not promise to make the injection painless, if they had they would have been called failures. . .Your god promised to protect those who call upon his name, it says what ever you ask for will be given unto you if only you believe, many have asked with more than enough belief, they asked for simple things like protection and safety and most are lying helpless and relying on men to help them. If your god is all loving or all good as you claim then most of the things we see happening around to chrisians that call up to his name will not happen, unless if you will come up with your own anonny way of redefining what all good or all loving is. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I can't think of any and I don't have to. But then I am not God with whom nothing is beyond His knowledge and ability to control. If I was, then there could be valid reasons for me to allow my kid to get paralyzed.[/quote]Here we go again. You were busy taking about an elusive greater good but when asked to specify you can't. . .What greater good can you think of that will stop you from deflecting a stray bullet that will paralye your child? You can't answer but you keep throwing words around in order to explain nothing. . .Why will a god that you claim is all good and all loving allow his own child to be hit by a stary bullet that will leave him paralyzed for the rest of his life?. . .

Wow how do you read? How do you jump to the conclusion that because God answers prayer, then He is automatically subject to man's control? Do you even know the meaning of a contradiction at all?

When a man prays he is telling god to alter his own wish and do the man's wish. . .You guys believe your god is in control don't you?. . .Even the bible talks about god abandoning his will and doing man's will when men prayed to him and pleaded with him. . .Your assertion that your god does not do man's will remains a lie because the bible is filled with god doing man's will when men pray to him. . .Answered prayers is an example of god doing man's will. . .Contradiction is the book that you call the word of god. . .

Nice question.........but the answer to that question lies with God not me. Besides, it is our souls that are the real deal not our bodies....If you are looking for suffering preachers, There are many who are beaten, raped, tortured and killed while preaching the gospel.


.....We know that God, who raised the Lord Jesus, will also raise us with Jesus and present us to himself...........That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day. 2Corinthians 4:14-16

If the answers lie with god and not you then why are you wasting your time telling us about your god and what he wants?. . .Why don't you allow him to talk to us himself. .After all when men were primitive he was all over them addressing them throughpublic speech, he was so close to them that he felt they could build a high tower and see him living in the skies that he had to make them have different languages, no?. . .Another nonsense talk about souls, why then do christians pray for protection against harm and misfortune if it is the soul alone that matters?. . .Why do christians try their possible best to assit each other when they are suffering if all that matters is the soul?. . .

I asked a simple question and all you can come up is with is this drivel?. . .What greater good is there when a loving and all good god refuses to protect his child that called upon his name for protection as he promised in his word. but left the child that went out to do his work for him to be invloved in an accident that left him paralyzed for and unable to walk again and use his body properly for the rest of his life?. . .

Will you as an all good and loving parent do that?. . .How is yur good all good or all loving with the events we see happing in the life of christians that genuiningly call on to the name of your god for protection against harm and misfortune that the can't control but he fails them all the time. . .There are millions of examples the world over. . .How is your good all good or all loving. .Will a loving parent do that?. . .The existence of evil shows that your god is not all good or all loving unless if you have your own anonny definition of what love or good is. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]My answer is simple: If I knew of a greater purpose and I could control all outcomes then I could let it happen.[/quote]I asked you to state any greater purpose you know of that will stop you from saving your young child from a stary bullet assuming you have the ability to do so. . .You keep talking about an elusive greater purpose, just state one. . .Any one you can think of. . .

Well, this was what I was responding to:

"evil exists even without intelligent life to judge it........."

Ok. . . .Didn't know you were responding to that sorry. . .

[quote]Lol, now he accuses me of lying.
Let us look at John 14:14
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
You know what it means to ask for something in the name of someone, don't you?

Yes you lied. . .You claimed your god does not do man's will when we have him doing it all over the bible, even the bible has him changing his own will to do the will of man. . .Example Yaweh wanted to kill off a group of people and Moses pleaded with him and he changed his mind and acted according to the will of Moses. Many times people pray to him and he does their will, its all over the bible. . .

Here are a few more verses to help you get clear.

An example of how to ask:
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1John 5:14

More contradictions in the bible. Jesus stated in many places that all you need is to believe in him and what ever you ask for, will be given to you. .

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. Matthew 21:21

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Mark 11:24

These verses do not talk about the will of god do they?. . .They only underscored the importance of belief in the name of Jesus. . .Believe ask and it will be done. . . .

An example of how not to ask:
When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. James 4:3

It is all about God's will mate, not ours.

So the preacher that was on evangelism who prayed for protection and a safe journey before he embarked on the journey but later got involved in an accident that left him paralyzed and unable to walk again for the rest of his life was asking with the wrong motives?. . .What is the will of your god towards him for failing to answer his prayers for protection and safe journey despite the claims of your god that he will always answer the prayers of those that believe?. . .What greater purpose does his paralysis add to his life or the life of his family that is finding it very hard to take care of him?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Hmm......a stray bullet implies something beyond my control, same as the paralysis of my child. Now if I have the ability to stop it, I would. I will even take the bullet. However, if I know that my child getting hit will achieve a greater purpose (even though my child may not be able to recognize it) and I am able to control the outcome or even reverse the situation if I choose, then I'll let it happen.[/quote]Here we go again, I asked a simple question and you are trying to answer it the anony way. . .What greater purpose will a stray bullet acheive by leaving your child paralze for the rest of his life. Mention any you have in mind that will make you allow your child to get hit despite you having the ability to stop it.

I don't understand what you are incensed about here or what claims you think I have made. perhaps you may want to quote me so that I see what exactly you are responding to.

This is the nonsense that you wrote. . .

You have not answered my question at all. For an animal to suffer or be traumatized, it must have an intelligence so as to know that it is suffering and that it's suffering is evil.
To even ponder the necessity of it's suffering, the animal should have an even higher intelligence capable of stepping outside itself and viewing it's situation from an objective viewpoint.

It doesn't prove any such thing. All it proves is that God is not a genie who does man's will. As for the hurricane question, my stopping the hurricane depends on how much information is available to me. With my limited information as a human being, I would but if I could see the overall big picture, I just might allow it depending on what I know.

Here we go again. . .Anony will lie and throw the bible under the boss to project and protect the imagie of this god he has created in his mind and is self projecting. Firstly, we have the bible ALWAYS stating that god will do man's will. . .Even Jesus has claimed many times that if people believe in him what ever they wish for and will he will do it so you are lying when you say such things. . .here is one example out of many .John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. So your nonsense talk of your god not doing man's will is a big joke. . .The bible clearly says you don't know what you are talking about since it says if you ask for anything in god's name he will do it. . .Why does your god not answer the prayers of those in serious distress who call out to him for help in his name?. . .The christian chap on his way to evengelize the word of your god that was involved in an accident that left him paralze for the rest of his life is evidence that your god is imaginary, no?. . .Of what good is his paralysis to him or the people around him since he is now in pains, distress and has become a very big burden to his family who do not even have the money to take care of him?. . .

cyrexx: @ Purist
dont underestimate the power of the human mind to rationalise the most irrational beliefs.

Exactly what anony is doing, he is even lying to himself and to every body to prove non existent points. . he claims his god is all good and all loving yet we have natural evil that harm people and cause them endless pains?. . .Even humans that are not all god try as much as they can to stop or curtail the effects of natural evil talk more of a god that is all powerful, all loving and all good. . .

Mr Anony how is your god all good or all loving?. . .Will you as a loving parent allow a stary bullet to hit your child and make him paralyse for the rest of his life if you have the ability to stop it?. . .How do you know that animals don't have the intelligence to know that they are sufferening and that suffering is evil? How do you know that? And must animals sufferening and evil be known before it is considered evil? When the heck are you saying?. . .

Humans see evil all over the world and that is reason enough. . .How is your god a loving god in the face of all the natural evil we see around as humans?. . .If you have the ability to stop an earth quake that will destroy lives and property you will do that as a human being what more of your all powerful and loving god that sits without doing anything, after every natural disasters you see humans trying to help each other rebuild their lives, your god has never shown interest in helping people rebuild or even in consoling people yet we are to believe that that imaginary concept is all loving?. . .
I repeat if you have the ability to stop the hurricane that killed people in the america's recently you will stop it. . .That is you as a human being talk more of an all loving god. . Events happening around proves that your imaginary all good and all loving god exist only in your imaginations thats is why you are going all the way and using lies to defend that imagination of yours that you believe exist. . .

MacDaddy01: This is good. The christians are showing their true colours here!


Lets see who really used logic and commonsense in this debate;

1) Ihedinobi was trying to argue that Adam and Eve repopulated the world in 6000 years. (Something that has been proven wrong by science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve#Science_vs._literalism )

2) Ihedinobi was trying to argue that there would be no genetic defects from Adam and Eve's later offsprings from their inbreeding.



So those are the two arguments

For the first argument, we argued about the numbers

a) I said that it is more likely to be an arithmethic progression from two people. Using certain assumptions (considering how many offsprings added in each generation etc), you wouldnt arrive at 7 billion.

b) Anony used a geometric progression. This fails from the very beginning because it would always give an unrealistically high number. 1 billion people in china will turn to two billion in a common ratio of at least 2 in the next sequence. A geometric progression can never work no matter how you fiddle with the numbers


C) Ihedinobi supported Anony until he did research for a day to find out that scientists use exponential progression. He was wrong (supporting anony and then changed his mind.


That everyone seems to forget is that the scientists that use exponential growth do not start with the assumption of two people. Even exponential progression has its limitations and it is used with certain assumptions. I used an arithmetic progression since we were starting from 2 people and it was a far better measure than a geometric progression.



A word for the wise.

This is why they say arguing with fools makes one stupid.

I have been following the debate and laughing on the side lines, if you had made this point earlier on the ridiculous back and forth would have ended.

davidylan: With regard to the alleged "logicboy effect", it really isnt new. There are very many nominal christians walking around today who are merely card-carrying members of a "religion" they know very little about. Like the parable of the sower explicitly tells us, they are the type who have precious little grounding in the bible... they are the type who substitute genuine heartfelt spirituality with a social club that is heavy on vain philosophy and religious slogans. They are the ones who waste bandwidth posting the latest churchy motto from their pastor on sundays while ignoring the weightier matters of the gospel. Test them with a little pain and they are more than ready to turn their backs on a Jesus who they view as no more than a lottery machine.
For them, christianity is merely an avenue to a life of "prosperity" promised them by wolves in sheep's clothing who merely use the bible as a route to milking the ignorant dry.

A real child of God knows better than to be knocked around by the clearly ignorant bleating of atheists who hang their hopes on a "science" they are just too illiterate about.

Mr literate "scientist", where is your own scientific evidence that shows that humans came from two people adam and eve? Where is it?. . .Where is your own scieitific mathematical equation that shows that the whole earth started from 2 people 6000 years ago? Until you provide that you have no reason to talk about logic boy not knowing anything about science. . .The funny thing with people like you is that you KNOW very well that your religion belief are based on mythical stories and thoughts thats why in one sentence you talk about christianity as a religion that is based on faith and not reason or evidence but then in another sentence you try to show that it is based on reason.Put up or shut up. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]I have told you from the start that God is all-loving and love means that some suffering can be allowed to happen. The divide between you and I is that while I am describing God as I know Him, you are describing an omniscient genie. The problem is that you are then turning around to make it sound as if my God is the same as your genie.[/quote]How is your god all loving?. . .Will you as a loving parent allow a stary bullet to hit your child and make him paralyse for the rest of his life if you have the ability to stop it?. . .

Isn't the catholic church also known as the roman catholic church?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Lol, funny how you have reduced it to "Serve God or Die!" Thereby resorting to an emotional argument.[/quote]More than half of the bible is filled with serve god or die. . .The OT is all about serving god or getting killed. . .

The first thing you need to grasp is that it is God that gave life in the first instance, without which man wouldn't even be able to ponder choices.
For man to reject the giver of life, he is rejecting life itself and has death as the consequence of his choice. So my friend, it is not a threat, you have your freedom to choose.

Nope, you believe that god gave life, when you provide evidence for that then we can talk about it, I won't deal with your assumptions that have no evidence to back them up. . .If you have a video recording of Yahweh giving life and not allah then you might be taken seriously. . .Since you don't then your assumptions fall off the window. . .

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses.
Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.
For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
(Deutronomy 30:19)

It is because God loves us unconditionally that He allows both the good and evil to enjoy the life that He gives and that is the kind of love Christ urges us to have.

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matt5:44-45

Dude, you have a choice to make, you can either make it or you can blame God for forcing it upon you. One thing we cannot escape though is the consequence of our choices.

The entire bible talks more about the will of Yahweh. . .Even Jesus himself said that no one can come to him unless his father wills it. . .Where then is the free choice?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Lol, funny chap you are. You say "provide a verse" and when I have done so you say "oh it is not valid because it is in the old testament"[/quote]You did not bring any verse from the old testament that says people have the choice to freely serve Yahweh or not. . .

Anyway, that's by the way. I think our contention is really over what we know free-choice to be.
While I hold that free-choice is "freedom to choose" (irrespective of the consequences), you on the other hand seem to hold that free choice is "choice without consequences"(bad consequences that is)

I would like to put to you that the nature of choice is such that we heed our preferences/desires and choose to act on them. For one to have a preference, it means that there are options and that one has chosen the consequences that come with an option. Without these consequences, there will be no choice.

If I choice comes with opportunity cost I know but choice means freedom to do what you want and be free and happy with your choice. . .Telling you to serve god or get killed is NOT free choice. . .It is not even a choice because most people will not want to die so they will chose to serve god because they were forced to do so. . .Where is the free choice when unbelievers were told to either serve god get killed or be enslaved as stated in the bible? Where is the free choice?. . .

Now coming to God: By nature of serving God, we are blessed. and by nature of rejecting God, we are condemned. There is freedom to make that choice. If whether you served God or not, there was no consequence i.e. you get blessed anyway, then there is really no choice in the matter.

Get blessed or get killed? unbelievers were to be killed in the bible, no?. . .

It is just like saying "If you do the job you will get paid, if you don't do the job, you will get sacked" you have a choice here. It is silly to campaign for a situation where you can choose not to do the job but still remain employed.

What if you don't want to do the job and you don't want to get paid by the company at all?. . .What if you want to work in another company?. . .You ought to have the right to do that freely. . . .What if you wanted to serve baal? Why get killed for worshipping baal?. . .

If anyone is unable to choose but just finds himself serving God even though he really wants to reject God, then it can be said that such a person has been denied free-choice.

You really ought to have carefully gone through that thread I linked you to.

Even the bible says that it is god that draws people to him based on his will and purpose. . .Even Jesus said that no one can come to him unless his father wills it. . .So where is the free choice you are talking about. . .I repeat the will of god and his purpose is what the bible talks of and no where does it explicitly state that humans have free choice to obey or serve god freely according to their own free will. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]And I gave you a very simple answer: The nature of God is Love....what you are asking sounds like "did God create God?" or perhaps, your English comprehension skills are not so good.[/quote]So love is uncreated is that what you are saying?. . .The same bible said god created evil despite your denial. . .

If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them.....
.....But [b]if [/b]ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments.........(Leviticus 26:3,14)

Where does it talk about freedom of choice here, you are quoting from the OT where if you break any of the commandments you are either ordered to be stoned to death of burnt alive. . .You are a joke. . .Even the verses you quoted from leviticus do not imply free will at all because it goes on to say that if the people keep his commandments and do them he will give them rain in due season, and their land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. It does not even say if you chose to obey or keep my commandments. . If they refuse the opposite will happen it says "I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it". So where is the free choice here? People that refused to obey these commandments written in the OT were to be killed or harm will come their way according to Yahweh himself. . .so FAIL. . .Show me where it says humans have the free choice to serve Yahweh willingly or not. . .

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord (Proverbs 1:29)

What is this? They hated knowledge and did not chose to serve the lord?. . .Again another verse from the old testament and we know that those that disobey the Yahweh and his commandments where mostly ordered to be killed so where is the free choice you are talking about?. . .

This is what the Lord says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'(Jeremiah 6:16) etc etc.

What is this?. . .

I have provided bible verses for you since that's what it seems you are asking for. However, I know you will not be satisfied because you really don't want it to be true. You are not asking because you seek an answer, you are asking with malice.

You have provided NOTHING and you KNOW it. . .Thats why you are quick to counter that you know i will not be satisfied because am asking with malice, you know very well that you are just dancing all over the place with nothing. . .I only asked you to provide a SINGLE verse where it says that people have the free choice to choose either to serve god freely or not to serve him freely, you can NOT do that, you can ONLY keep arguing from silence and making your own stuffs and conspiracies up. . I can provide you with over 10 20 verses in the bible from different places both in the old and new testaments where EVERYTHING is said to be dependent on the will of god and his purpose. . .Even Jesus clearly stated that no one can come to him unless his father wills it. . .

As for hose who recieve punishment for making wrong choices, I would like you to note that in the absence of consequences, there can be no choices.

Then its obvious you do not know what free choice is. . .Obey my commandements or get killed right? Is that what free choice is all about?. . .That is what is written all over the bible, obey the 10 commandments or get killed, work on the sabath, be stoned to death, commit adultery, be stoned to death, disobey your parents and be stoned to death, where is the free choice?. . .Even unbelievers were to be enslaved or killed for not obeying Yahweh, where then is the elusive free choice you keep yapping about. . .Read the bible no where does it say that people have the free choice to do what they want, every thing is said to be the will of god according to his own purpose, no where was man's will mentioned anywhere. . .It says god chooses to have mercy on whom he will and destroy whom he wills. . .Nothing like humans have the free choice of choosing to obey him or not, if they do they will not be ordered to be killed for disobedience or unbelief as it is written in most parts of the bible. . .

The next thing you'll probably say is that the bible contradicts itself on this. So I'll put up this link again: On that thread, I believe we thrashed the issue of freewill/determinism extensively.

[url] https://www.nairaland.com/996184/grace-destiny-vs-freewill-brethren[/url]

The thread did not thrash anything, what am i to do with your personal opinions and the counter opinions of others, you are all arguing from silence as long as non of you was able to show where it appears in the bible that people have the free choice to either worship Yahweh or not to worship him. . .

If you won't bother to check out the thread, but persist with asking silly questions and drawing ignorant conclusions, then I can't help you as it will be a waste of my time trying to convince you of something you have already pre-concluded about.

You can't expect me to discuss with you if you cover your ears and shout "bla bla bla!"

I am asking very valid questions, the person making silly conspiracies is YOU, because you are yet to provide a single verse where it says people have the free choice to worship Yahweh freely or not to worship him freely. . .How can you discuss with me when all you are doing is arguing from silence and making your own conspiracies, of course I won't even take your own conspiracies seriously. . .

Kobojunkie: Who said anything about being rich? And what the heck has Europe to do with this man's life?

I know people that work hard and are broke, Europe pays good wages at least compared to Nigeria. . .

Kobojunkie: I thought you said you work real hard. Where does all the money go?

And who told you that hard work makes people rich?. . .I know many people that work 12 hours daily and they don't have money. . .Am talking about people that live in Europe not even in Nigeria. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]What part of "God is Love" don't you understand?[/quote]I asked you a simple question, did your god create love?. . .Love is not an oject, so did your god create it?

There are many passages in the scripture where God gives man "if" conditions and goes into covenants with men. These wouldn't make any sense absent freedom of choice. Unless you are dubiously asking for the specific word "free-will" then I'd have to ask for the specific word "determinism".

If you are really interested in the Freewill/Determinism dilemma, and not just about trying to rile me up while enjoying the sound of your own voice, I have already posted a link earlier that you can study. If you will not, then too bad for you.

Free will determinism are all your own words. . .There is no where in the bible where it says god has given man any free will to chose to obey him or not. .Nothing like that appears in the bible, in the bible many passages point out to god's will and purpose not man's choice or freewill, so stop argiung from silence and stop pushing your own conspiracies, show me where god says that men have the free choice to serve him or not. The last time i checked in some parts those that did not believe in him or chose to serve him were ordered to be killed. . .So stop arguing from silence and making things up. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]God is love[/quote]Am asking you if he created love since love is not an object. . .The bible also talks of evil spirits coming from god. . so did your god create love?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Hmm, freewill and determinism.....Perhaps this thread will help you. . . . .If you are willing to check it out
[url] https://www.nairaland.com/996184/grace-destiny-vs-freewill-brethren[/url][/quote]Where does the word free will or free choice appear in the bible?. . .Where in the bible did god say he gave people free will to serve him or not. . Pls show where it is written and stop arguing from silience and making up your own conspiracies. . .Show me where the word free will appears in the bible and stop arguing from silence. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]First I'd like you to note that the problem of evil isn't merely a "religious problem". It is a human problem.

Now God created human beings giving them free-choice knowing that by giving them free-choice, the very nature of free-choice means that man can possibly do evil. . .but then without free-choice, man cannot possibly be good either.
God is love and even though He is all-powerful, His nature does not allow Him to force His love upon us.
God's solution to the problem of evil is the sacrifice of Christ because only through Him, can man find redemption. When a man rejects that sacrifice, God will not force the man into Heaven against his will.[/quote]Firstly, the concept of freewill of free choice is non biblical, it does not appear any where in the bible, pls show me where it is written in the bible that god gave humans freewill either to serve in or not to serve him. . .you are just arguing from silence and making up your own conspiracies since non of what you are saying about freewill is written in the bible. . .the word free will or free choice does not appear in the bible so its your own making and conspiracies. . .

Did your god create love?. .Remember love is not an object just live evil. . If i created a car then it doesn't follow that i created beauty according to your logic. . .so did your god create love?. . .So god's nature does not allow him to force his love upon people eh?. . .yet we have him in many parts of the bible advocating that does that do not follow him or worship him be put to death, eh?. . .Where then is the free choice you are talking about?. . .Free choice does not appear any where in the bible so enough of the arguments from silence. . .The bibel actually is against the free will doctrine. .Here are a few example. . .

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Joh 6:44[b] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him[/b]. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Rom 9:18[b] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills[/b].

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

All these passages(there are many more) talk ONLY about god's will and purpose which he had already predestined before the ages began . . .Where then did your free choice come from since everything is done according to his will, even christians according to some of the passages were already chosen to be christians and to be in his good books before they were born.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Interesting. Your understanding of the bible is poor or perhaps it is your understanding of language. evil is a quality and not an object. If I create a beautiful car, It does not mean that I created "beauty" and put it in the car. In the same way that damaging my car does not mean that you created "car ugliness" neither does driving the now ugly car automatically mean that I must have created "car ugliness" because I am using an ugly car.
If you can't grasp this analogy, then I am afraisd I really can't offer you much help.[/quote]It is your own understanding of the bible that is poor, the bible clearly stated that god has evil spirits and uses them. . .Did your god create love?. . .After all love is a quality and not an object. . .So did your god create love?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]lol, you read the bible, you misinterpret it. but instead of seeking the correct interpretation, strangely the bible is at fault for not dumbing itself down for you...........funny guy you are.[/quote]And the correct interpretation is?. . .The same bible talks about evil spirits from god. . .And we are told that all things come from god, no?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Yes, but you miss out the part that tells us that after God made everything, He saw it was Good.
You miss the part where somewhere along the line, the lucifer and some angels became evil.
This does not stop God from using them The same way when God uses sinful man, it doesn't automatically mean that God made the man evil.[/quote]So lucifer created evil?. . .I thought god created everything?. . .even the bible talked about god hardening people's heart(I wonder how you can harden a person's heart ). . . .God did not create evil but then he has his own evil spirits?. . .What are we to make of it?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Nope, a number of other versions render it as "calamity" instead of "evil"[/quote]Evil and calamity have different meanings. . .One of the definition of evil is "morally wrong" or "bad". . .Even your "word" of god can not have clear meanings and is open to various interpretations and translations. . .so much for the "word" of god. . . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Lol, I hope you do realize that the evil we are discussing here is moral evil. The evil described in Isaiah on the other hand is not moral evil but physical calamity and natural disaster.[/quote]And it says natural disasters in which part of the passage?. . .Arguing from silence and making your own conspiracies no?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Small misconception here: For starters, God did not create evil. God created a good world. Evil is the damage. It is like when a potter makes cup if it breaks, you don't blame the potter for creating cracks in the cup.[/quote]Another lie. . .Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

truthislight: she serve Yahweh all her live.

And this is written in which part of the story?. . .

My girl friend is a christian. She uses my money to pay her tithe am very sure, I don't care since she doesn't have an idea of how much i earn, she knows am a big earner but doesn't really know exactly how much i earn, since she is not my wife she is contented with what ever i give her and she uses out of it to pay her tithe. If marry a christian she is free to use her money to pay her tithe, but she can't use my money.

frosbel: How utterly silly your assessment.

Who wants to die now ? Have you heard of the phrase let it 'run it's course' , everyone has a life span on this earth , they have families, commitments, missions and agendas, death is a rude interruption to these , but should not be a worry for many a Christian.

Why would a mother want to die now considering that she has children who need her nurturing and guidance , or why will a father want to die when he is the bread winner of his family, can you imagine how foolish how silly your reasoning sounds.

Besides no one goes to heaven or hell when they die , they ( the dead ) are all awaiting the final day of judgement when their destinations will be determined.

There is a difference between wanting to live out your span here on earth and the fear of death.

The highlighted part caught my attention, that shows you that all the people's whose testimony you sometimes post hear about going to heaven and seeing people they know there are pure lies going by your own comments right?. . .

The fact that most christians will prefer to live here on earth than go to the imaginary heaven says they know its imaginary, imagine people praying to get well when they are sick instead of praying to die and go to heaven to enjoy the "goodies". . . .Instead of praying for each other to die and go to heaven they keep praying for longer lives here on earth. . .Delusion at its best. . .