₦airaland Forum

My O My. This thread should be bookmarked for future reference. Geeeez. They gathered to shoot down the gospel and ended up shooting their own teachings while at it yet the gospel remained intact.

See desperados everywhere dodging and dodging with many words yet nothing is being said. No serious Christian should take this fiasco serious.

Nlmediator, Gombs y'all need to read the last 2 pages. I'm laughing my eyes out.

PastorAIO: I thank you for you response because I truly did not know that Arabia was a region that encompassed Jordan and up to Damascus in Syria.
However having said that there still remains the points as follows. Luke is trying to demonstrate a connection between Paul's Ministry and the rest of the Church while Paul himself is trying in his letter to the galatians to distance himself from Jerusalem and thus to throw off any authority that they may be seen to have over him.
Whether we can connect Luke's 'Certain Days' with Paul's '3 years' and say that they refer to the same time period would depend on knowledge of Luke's colloquialisms and use of language. I don't have that kind of knowledge but in my own experience when a period is measured in days, even if they were talking about very many days I would not imagine that they were talking about a period of years.
Paul insists that he did not confer with anybody but went to Arabia. Luke says he met with Ananias who gave him back his sight and he met other christians. We agree that he only later went to Jerusalem and had started to preach before he went there. The bottom-line is that Paul is claiming an independent inspiration while Luke fits him in the milieu of other christians before him.

It's more important for one to understand the spirit of all Paul's writings so as not to conflate things. In Paul's letter to the Galatians (a people he had once visited prior to this letter) he was correcting some teachings that had infiltrated his church from people who 'claimed' they were members of the Jerusalem church. So Paul had to explain why the Jerusalem church had nothing to add or subtract from his teachings. In this case he had taught the Galatians that they didn't need to be circumcized or observe Jewish ordinances (like ceremonial cleaning or avoidance of sacrificed meat) to be considered saved. When he left for a while to preach to other regions some 'brethren from James' in the Jerusalem church came to the Galatians and said the contrary- that if they were not circumcized et al- they were not saved. This information rattled the Galatians (who had assumed that the earlier apostles wielded more authority than Paul) who then relayed their complaints to their Pastor, Paul. So Paul had to explain to them how he didn't get his teachings from any of the Apostles but 'from Jesus himself' in his own words.


As per Lukes account, Luke only wrote the gist of Paul's journeys. So he is allowed to make estimations like 'many days' and 'certain days'. Paul's own account of his itinerary should be more detailed and therefore hold more water. If Luke says many days and Paul says 3 years, then Paul has to be more correct.

Luke didn't say that Paul got his teachings from Ananias but that he received his sight. Paul didn't need to mention it to the Galatians because it was surfeit to the idea he was trying to communicate to them, which was that the information he passed to them concerning salvation was in no way of less verisimilitude than the one's they were getting from fellow brethren in Jerusalem. If anything, his was superior as he was sent to the Gentiles more so than any other man.

Two things:

1. I will never Argue on Tithes with Image123. The type of Wounjury BabaGnoni received, I doubt I would have recovered from it. All things are POSSIBLE sha.

2. Nannymcphee, your questions are valid and reek of no elements of sarcasm or ill will but these fellows will not provide answers for them because

- It destroys their theology and turns it on its head.
- it exposes this thread for what it really is- a sham.
- dissenting views are not entertained.

How people can come together to spiritualize their unbelief only God knows. Truly a blind man cannot lead other blind men.

Sarassin: Most certainly nothing adds up where Paul is concerned, here is the first contradiction;

"When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night to kill him; but his disciples took him by night and let him down over the wall, lowering him in a basket". (Acts 9:23-25)

"At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to seize me, but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands". (II Corinthians 11: 32,33)

So, was it the Jews of Damascus from whom Paul fled, or was it from the governor under King Aretas? Further, did they lower him over the wall, or through a window in the wall?

In the accounts you have outlined. First, If Paul had to escape from Damascus either to save his life or to avoid arrest, and then spent time in Arabia, why would he have returned to Damascus where his life would again have been endangered? The reasonable answer is that there was no foray into Arabia, and no return to Damascus.

Here is Paul defending himself before Agrippa;

"Wherefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those at Damascus, then at Jerusalem and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance" (Acts 26:19,20).

What is conspicuous by its absence is…a mention of Arabia….and a return to Damascus, and definitely we know he was unknown in Judea!

This is very easy to explain. Aretas was the king of then Arabia that encapsulated regions such as Edom, Jordan and Damascus. He had governors under him that reported to him and relayed taxes of course. The 'unknown' governor in Paul's account was in charge of the Damascenes province that had many devout Jews living there. Just like during the days of Pontius Pilate and Herod the Jews at times put pressure on the governors to either arrest someone for them or kill them. Similar to how Jesus and then James was killed and also how Paul was imprisoned on many occasions. In Damascenes (at this point in time) that was the case. The Jews put pressure on the governor to have Paul arrested.

Secondly, use the King James version to study that story and cross-reference it with what Luke said in Acts. It checks out. The KJV said Paul was lowered down through the Window of city wall. So your question becomes pleonastic. (I would post the scriptures for you later if you are still in doubt).

As per whether he moved to Arabia and back to Damascus. I have explained it before to the Pastor and I will try to belabor myself. Paul was on his way to Damascus. When he got close to it (precisely at the Arabian deserts) he met with Jesus and was blinded by the light. Then he was led into Damascus to meet with Ananias who healed him. Paul stayed in Damascus for a short while preaching to people around there especially in Damascenes. As he preached he drifted to areas like Bashan and other parts of Northern Arabia (which is still in Arabia as whole). This where he received the bulk of his revelations from Jesus. The Acts account states that Paul stayed here "many days". Then he RETURNED AGAIN to Damascus. The Galatians account was more specific. He said he spent about 3 years between Arabia and Damascus. It was when he returned to Damascus (with his revelations of getting saved by Grace) that the Jews began to plan to kill him. The message of Grace annoyed and continues to annoy them till date. So his fellow believers helped him escape to Jerusalem where he met with the Apostles. Thats why he said none of their messages added anything to him. He had already received his revelations from Jesus and had preached for 3 years before meeting them.

Hope this helps.

PastorAIO: No, I'm not quite satisfied. Can you provide evidence that Arabia included all the land from Damascus and Eastern Jordan? Where did you get that information from?

2 Corinthians 11:32-33King James Version (KJV)
32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:

Aretas was in Damascus in Paul's day. That's the first aspect. Secondly, the capital of then Arabia was Petra. Petra was occupied by Nabataeans (at the north) that live in modern day Jordan. At their peak they extended from Dedan into Damascus (1 BC), meaning that Damascus had to be inside the whole of Arabia that also encompassed Jordan. http://www.ancient.eu.com/Arabia/

He said he spent 3 years in Arabia but Luke said in Acts that he only spent a few days with the disciples in Damascus before he went to Jerusalem. The two sources do not tally. 3 years is a big difference from a few days no matter how much anyone can try to spin it.

Luke said he spent certain days in Damascus with the disciples in verse 19. He did this till verse 22. Then he went into the northern (rural areas) of Arabia. This is where the Galatians 1:17 account happened. He spent "many days" here before returning again to Damascus.

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

For him to 'return again' to Damascus it implies that he must have been there before going to Arabia which is what I said earlier.

When he returned to Damascus after many days and when he had to be helped out of Damascus due to the plot till he got to Jerusalem took about 3 years in total. That's why I said it is difficult to ascertain how the stay was apportioned between Arabia and Damascus. We know it took 3 years altogether. Then he got to Jerusalem. It adds up.

PastorAIO: The point that I think that you are raising is a very important point. Paul didn't use Jewish teachings to convert Gentiles. In fact he taught the gospel in the terminology of Greek religion, using phrases and quotes from Greek prophets and poets. This can be similar to what the missionaries in africa did when they called Esu Satan and they called Eledumare the Christian. But in the end are you really teaching christianity if you are couching it in the terms of another religion or culture and distorting both cultures and religions at the same time. Why Can't Satan just be Satan? Why do they have to conflate it with Esu?

Paul tried to pull this stunt of in Athens but got laughed out of the city. He saw a shrine to a God called the Unknown God and would you believe what he did? He claimed that the God that he is preaching is that Unknown God that the Athenians were worshipping. Can you imagine what the jews would have thought of him going to a foreign land and equating a shrine he saw there with the God of Israel?

By being all things to all people you end up conflating everything.

No new convert gets the full gist immediately so he wasn't entirely wrong for using some of their teachings to grab their attention. As one grows in the faith of course, some of the Athenians would have known that the God of Israel wasn't a shrine or an unknown God per se. I understand your point though about conflating ideas. That's why everyone is encouraged to grow. A pastor can preach saying "if you smoke you will go to hell". That statement could coerce one into accepting salvation. Obviously, as one grows in the faith you get to understand that such teaching may not have been word-based. I don't subscribe to such manner of teaching though.

PastorAIO: If I pretend not to laugh it could be construed as insulting or condescending so I'll blurt it out. My guy, Damascus is in Syria which is north of palestine. Arabia is South of Palestine. You cannot pass through arabia on your way to Damascus from Jerusalem. I'll be honest with you I am laughing right here, I'm sorry. You said that without batting an eyelid!
Secondly Paul said that he was in Arabia for 3 years. Was he blind all those 3 years? Remember it was Ananias in Damascus that baptized Paul. Was Paul therefore in Arabia unbaptized for three years and blind?
Conclusion, you have not reconciled the discrepancy in the story. Do you want to have another go?

I'd let you have your laughs. Done? The scripture you posted said Arabian desert. Please bear it in mind.

Arabia at the point of discourse included all the kingdom of Aretas from Damascus and Eastern Jordan. It even stretched into Edom that resided southwise. When Paul differentiates between Arabia and Damascus is to show that he wasn't in Damascus the whole 3 years. We don't know how long he spent in the Arabia aspect (north area) before going back to the Damascus. We know that altogether he spent 3 years at Arabia and Damascus meaning he received his revelations in the North of Arabia then he preached to people around there for a bit. After thence he went back to Damascus from whence he originally received his sight from. All this he did before going to Jerusalem to meet the Apostles.

In a nutshell, he met Jesus at the Arabian desert (still in old Arabia), went into the Damascus region of Arabia and received his sight, started preaching as he drifted towards North Arabia (densely populated), he received more revelations, came back to Damascus (hence the 'returned again' part in Galatians), confounded Jews (as a result), fled because they tried to kill him and headed to Jerusalem.

Satisfied?

Judas is in Hell. Ayoku777 and Bidam are correct. Judas was not saved to begin with. The 'true' salvation began after the death AND resurrection of Jesus christ on the cross and Judas didn't wait for the resurrection unlike Peter.

It was not the repentance of Peter that restored him because Judas repented too shortly before committing suicide. Peter in his own words said he became born again by the resurrection of Jesus. The scriptures tell us clearly that Jesus met with Peter separately after he resurrected. We don't know what conversation transpired but we surely know that was probably when the 'restoration occurred'. If Judas had only waited till the resurrection I am positive he would have been converted because the love of Jesus is able to save even to the uttermost. But that was the danger Judas got himself into- self-righteousness and being possessed by the devil who caused him to kill himself and thus condemning him to hell and giving credence to Jesus' statement that it was better he wasn't born. Period.

PastorAIO: Simple comprehension sir! I didn't say anything about meeting apostles in Damascus. I plainly asked the question where there was discrepancy. I'll ask the question again:


Please can you answer the question.

Paul on getting converted on his way passed through Arabia (which is very much en route to Damascus) before getting to Damascus. In that Journey and after getting healed by Ananias Paul began preaching the revelations he got from Jesus to everyone he could see in Damascus. The revelations were that the gentiles had access to salvation through grace by having faith In Jesus. This offended the Jews who planned to kill him. Paul then escaped to Jerusalem where he then met and conferred with the "Apostles". He didn't go to the Apostles after being converted.

Hope this answers you.

PastorAIO: In the letter to Titus Paul quotes a very interesting phrase made by the greek philosopher Epimenides. Why did he quote it?
10For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision, 11whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. 13This testimony is true. For which cause reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. Titus Shaptar 1
That phrase all 'Cretans are liars' is known as Epimenides paradox. It is said by a Cretan. So if all Cretans are liars then the person who said it must be lying. So is the phrase True or not. If it's true then it's not true. Paul says it's true.
If you read that passage as a mere paradoxical joke then you might miss something else that Paul might be hinting at.
You see that phrase comes from a poem that is actually referring to the death and resurrection of the Greek God Zeus. Certain people from Crete denied that Zeus resurrected and in protest the poet called them all Liars.
They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,
For in thee we live and move and have our being.
— Epimenides, Cretica

O Zeus, some say that thou wert born on the hills of Ida;
Others, O Zeus, say in Arcadia;
Did these or those, O Father lie? -- “Cretans are ever liars.”
Yea, a tomb, O Lord, for thee the Cretans builded;
But thou didst not die, for thou art for ever.
— Callimachus, Hymn I to Zeus
There are a lot of things that Paul says that would make sense automatically to a greek pagan. He quotes them a lot.
The question for me is whether the teachings are of any spiritual value. I say that they are, so therefore I am less prepared to dismiss Paul's teachings as falsehoods. However I would agree that there little continuity between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught.
I hope I've been able to make a worthwhile contribution to this thread.

Case dismissed then. BTW, Jesus' teachings were largely to a Jewish crowd and he employed Jewish teachings to pass his message. Paul's was to Gentiles and would have been amiss to use the same "Jewish teachings" to pass his truths- the very truths he got from "Jesus himself". In Paul's own words- I was everything to everyone so that by every means I could win some.

PastorAIO: This thread is very long. I've been reading it with interest cos it contains many points that I've been trying to make over the last few years. However I would not go to the extreme that Sarassin has gone to. I do not think that Paul's teachings were absolute falsehood. I think that they contrast with the teachings of Jesus, but they are not always in stark contradiction. I think it is important to understand where Paul is coming from.
This whole thing about Paul Lying, I think definitely there is the problem of consistency in a lot of biblical accounts. Paul's story is inconsistent with the story in Acts. Acts contradicts itself and it contradicts Paul. Instead of going through a long thing with too many examples I think it is less time consuming to just put up one strong point and argue that point.
For example, instead of putting up a lot of issues that could easily be dismissed as mere speculations I would put up a single incident where the accounts in two part differ remarkably.
Personally I would go for the accounts of Paul's conversion and his early days as a christian. Then Ask questions as to what actually happened historically.
The Book of Acts tells it thus:
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12 and hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 and here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 for I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God

23 And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him: 24 but their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him. 25 Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket. 26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.
Paul is brought in to the family of christians in Damascus and then introduced to the apostles in Jerusalem where he is welcomed. But what is Paul's own account of what happened?
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
In galatians Paul is obviously trying to declare that the apostles in Jerusalem have no authority over him and so he denies even conferring with them after his conversion.
The question to ask therefore is: What happened to Paul after the Road of Damascus Conversion? Did he go to Jerusalem to be accepted by those 'which were apostles before me', Or did he go straight to the Arabian desert and confer with no one?
It is obvious that the writer of Acts is trying to place Paul in the context of the Church of Jerusalem, yet Paul himself is trying to remove himself from this context and deny it's authority over him.
Me personally, I would stick on this issue and hammer it over and over again. Otherwise the argument will just go all over the place and 10 pages later there'll be no progress, just a lot of yabis.
I'll be right back on the next post.....

Simple comprehension sir. Even the aspects you emboldened give you away. After Paul's encounter with Jesus he went to damascus and met with THE DISCIPLES THAT WERE THERE. The account doesn't say he met with the "Apostles". For example, Ananias was one of such disciples that he met there.

After Paul received the Holy Spirit he began preaching the gospel to people he could see in the Synagogues in damascus- mostly Jews. The account clearly states that after MANY DAYS the Jews then sought to kill him so he was aided out of damascus. Between verse 25 to 26 was the time it took Paul to travel to Jerusalem where Barnabas helped introduce him to the APOSTLES as well as other DISCIPLES. So when Paul said "none of them added to his message" in Galatians he was right because he had already started preaching his gospel of grace in Damascus before he ever met the APOSTLES in Jerusalem. Remember this took a long time to happen. So don't confuse yourself.

I will do justice to other aspects you posted when I am afforded the time.

^^^

I can't remember saying Peter was sent to the 'Gentiles'. I said Peter knew before Paul came into the scene that the gospel will be preached to the Gentiles. That's even besides the point.

What did Jesus mean by the Holy Spirit will tell us things to come?

I don't know where we get this idea that the church had to wait for Paul to document his teachings and then call it the word of God. Paul was writing letters to send to various churches he had started and at some point pastored. He didn't know at the time that his parchments were to become scripture besides Paul came into the fold years after the Pentecost and Peter already knew that the gospel will be preached to the Gentiles. So of course Paul had alot of revelations. What is a misrepresentation is for one to claim that the early church (not Judaists) had to wait for Paul. That's unscriptural.

In other news, Jesus said the Holy Spirit will tell us things to come. What did Jesus mean by things to come? Please note that "things to come" is different from "giving revelations". Paul said the Holy Spirit told him not to go to Asia to preach. Can we find such counsel by simply studying the scriptures taking into cognizance the fact that we have been commissioned to preach the gospel to the whole world?

How do they say it? You can't stop a bird from flying over your head. But it is your duty to prevent it from defecating on it.

Those that are wise will use their tongue to count their teeth.

shdemidemi: You are only speculating here... Paul was imprisoned, he knew the time had come to die like any other person in such predicament as he was under incarceration with a guy called Nero. Nero was more Carlos than the Nebuchadnezzar of old, he was a tyrant who killed his own mother, his brother and persecuted Christians like no one ever did. Paul knew he had no chance, he submitted to death as it beckoned.




My brother, don't twist words written clearly in black and white. We can't pray because we would naturally pray for the comfort of our sinful flesh. Even though God says He will be with us when we go through fire, many don't want to go through the fire at all. We are not ready to mortify our flesh or subject it to pain.

The bible never said the Holy Spirit helps us to do it, it says the Holy Spirit does it on our behalf. Please go back and read it again slowly and with other versions.



Now that you have listed the roles of the Holy Spirit, where did the bible say he will buy you car or make you rich?

Rather, he helps to comfort, strengthen, counsel et al....

Who needs a comforter?

For illustration sake, at times when a woman in pain during child birth goes through pains, there are people around who comfort her one way or the other. They don't take away the pain but they encourage, counsel and what have you.




We shouldn't delude ourselves all in the name of WoF. You are human and the best of men will remain men even at their very best. You have your doubt, you have your sinful senses connected with this world. All you try to interpret as God speaking to you are simply your wishes which are sometimes in contrast with God.




Lol.. You are only speaking positive confessions according to WoF doctrine. As we grow our body parts and physical depict and loses its vigour but the spirit man(the real MBA emeka) grows, never fall sick, cannot be hit by bullet.

A Christian can leave this physical and sinful body by any means, be it accident and all you have listed.

I am very busy now and would not be able to respond in details.

When you talk about Nero are you suggesting that he was the first to imprison Paul? Paul was imprisoned on so many occasions why didn't he talk about dying all those times? There is nothing like 'he had no chance' when it comes to a christian. All things are POSSIBLE. Didn't you see Paul praise his way out of jail before?

Likewise the SPIRIT HELPETH us in our weaknesses for We know not what to pray for AS WE OUGHT to. . .that verse is clear except you want to twist it like you are accusing me of. Again let me ask another question- Who will God pray to? So who is the Holy Spirit praying to? The Holy Spirit prays through us- that is how he helps us. He doesn't do it on his own. He HELPS us in OUR weakness. In that verse Paul said he does it through groanings that inarticulate. I have experienced it at times at prayer and I was encouraged by a pastor (that I respect) to not stop praying at such points because somethings that I maybe unaware of will be getting settled without my cognizance (I am going too spiritual now)

LOL @ your analogy. Go and study the verse well where Jesus said he will pray the father and he will send another 'comforter'. The preceding verse Jesus said I won't leave you as Orphans. He was saying he will send someone else who will be EXACTLY like me only difference is he will be IN You. The word he used was I won't leave you ORPHANOS I will pray the father and he will send ALLOS PARAKLETOS- another one of the SAME KIND. Please study.

God counsels me from my spirit. My Spirit has been recreated in righteousness and has been fed the word. I know when my mind is talking and I know when God is talking from my spirit. Most times they are at war and few times I let my mind win but for the most part (as I grew in the word) I let my spirit win. There are sometimes that I would be too tired to pray yet my spirit would be troubled. At such times my mind reminds me about how tired I am and why I should sleep. On many occasions when I yield to the leading of the spirit I start seeing some people dear to me in my prayers. When I pray about them and I hand it over to God I usually hear later that so and so's estate was robbed but nobody was hurt or so and so was involved in an accident but he/she came out unhurt. That's my own experience. If you don't experience such I don't envy you.

Sure my physical body is aging- no arguments there but Gods spirit also vitalizes me and keeps me healthy. When I get attacked by sickness I use the name of Jesus and many times the symptoms go immediately. At some other times they take time but they always eventually go. I have also taken medicine but I really cannot remember when last. That's also my personal experience.

Jesus said if you believe in your heart (without doubting) and you say to a mountain move from here to yonder place it will and NOTHING shall be IN POSSIBLE unto you. The principle is to believe in your heart without doubting and speak with your mouth. I am just emulating Jesus. If it qualifies me as WOF no wahala. I accept.

Got to go. (Forgive any typos. . .will edit later)

shdemidemi: God's will is what constantly happens. God says "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee". He knows every man and woman and all we will do even in the world.

Does God have a plan B? No.

God did not make man robots but even within man's volition man will constantly and eventually walk in the predestined direction God had orchestrated even before the creation of the world.

He knows the people He would call to salvation and He knows the people that will not be saved from the beginning. He said such people are of no excuse, He leaves such people to please themselves from one degree of darkness to another.
Romans 1
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.




Bro, if you can't see the full picture but only a blurry part, how then can you conclude you know the will of God. God has created you for a purpose, you don't know what that purpose is, you can only keep walking as His Spirit leads.

That is why I am against 'prophets' who claim they see things. I have no confidence in them whatsoever because unlike the incomplete information, the word of God gives a full and a sure information about me.
----------

You will do well if you give me one disciple or apostle of the gospel who lived the sort of opulent lifestyle you try to project.

Boko Haram killings in the north, Talibans in part of the Middle East. Wars in South Sudan, Savage killings in other parts of the world the list is endless. Did God plan all this? Are they God's will on earth? Tread carefully.

The Bible says there is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof is destruction. Does God will incorporate the destruction of men? Why in the world did Jesus come?

If God didn't make man a robot then that violates the latter part of your reasoning that Every man therefore walks in the orchestrated plan of God for his life. That's also unscriptural and a lie. Which brings me to introduce another truth: every man has 2 destinies really- his destiny without God and his destiny with God. You only discover your destiny in God when you come into Christ. So when you see some of the strange and wicked things that are occuring in the world it is as a result of men who are walking contrary to God's vision for them. That's why prayer (of intercession is important) by doing so we 'cause' people who were otherwise walking contrary to God's will to align to it. An example is Paul. The early church kept praying about the man that was leading the onslaught against them till God arrested him. (You can study it if you haven't). Prior to then Paul was walking contrary to God's will for his life.

There are so many others who have died and gone to hell simply because they walked contrary to God's will for them and God didn't will them to go to hell. No. God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of his son- Jesus Christ.

You have said something about God knowing those who will be saved and what not- Predestination. That is a touchy issue and I would steer clear from it at the moment. Just ask yourself one question- if God already knows those that will be saved and those that would not then why did he still commission us to preach to the whole world?

If you had a relationship with God's Spirit you would know that he doesn't lead you on the bye and bye. He created you as well as every man on earth. He knows all and he can tell you as much as you need to know if you would only tune in to his own frequency (as he is always speaking). Like I said before, many just aren't listening. I know the specific things God expects from me and I have many friends that know so too. Some of those things he said to me years back and flip down the years I have seen them happen. He does the speaking and I do the listening. That's my own relationship with him. I don't know what you mean by full picture or blurry picture.

The word of God is (permit me to say) generic for all christians. It doesn't tell you some specific things about you. Your personal relationship with God will tell you that. For example, God can tell you who not to marry. He can also tell you what company not to work for. He is that specific. He can tell you what to name your child, he can also tell you who to talk to and what to say. Again, that is my own personal experience with the word and I am sure there are some others even on this thread with the same experiences.

I don't know what you mean by 'Opulent' lifestyle but if you are referring to God leading us and telling us things we can go to Noah (concerning the Ark), Abraham (concerning Isaac), Isaac (concerning staying in the land to sow) etc etc. We can go to Paul (who not only knew about his time to check out but was instructed at different times what to say, what not to say, where to go and where not to go etc). The list is really endless.

alexleo: I can see your acclaimed happiness radiating all over you because I said I learnt from another brother rather than you wey be "I too sabi". Chai...happiness remix.

I have seen a post from you in the past saying something in the line of having a son or so and because of that I have to assume you are not a child. Or how else can anyone explain this interaction:

You said you learnt from Ayoku777s post (I did too) and then I responded thus:

mbaemeka: To the pure in heart all things are pure.
Whether you learnt from him or Nlmediator or Gombs I could careless. As long as you learnt something (of the truths in their posts) then my joy is fulfilled.

Then of course you didn't read the post well and replied that you didn't take 100 percent of what they said and only some things to which I referred you again to my post above stating that I said you learnt "something" not "all things" from their post. In other words, I am agreeing with you that you may have not taken all they said and I have no problem with that (revelation is progressive).

Then you gave some Inane reply but I could understand why because you added that you were going to bed. I could only guess you were sleepy when you made the response. Only for me to log in now and see another incoherent reply. Smh

BTW, the person liking your post is the one that said the forbidden fruit was sex that Eve had with the serpent and that the law of God in the bible is "thou shall not eat of the fruit". So when you want to refer to someone who knows nothing and doesn't know that he knows nothing you might as well look at yourself and that poster.

nlMediator: I'd rather spend my time engaging with others or conducting more productive exercises than burn my time indulging your silly attempts at aggravation. I thought you guys already have a thread for such nonsense? If you have a scripture that speaks of sickness present it. Don't think everyone here is that gullible to swallow your irrelevant responses.

My exact thoughts.

alexleo: Hahaha. Ok. And I didn't mention the other ones you mentioned. . You only assumed. Oya its time to sleep now. Have a blessed night.

Huh? You really need the sleep. Even for you this is below nonsense. #NoOffence

Goodnight.

*switches in to watch Bill Winston*

^^^

In my usual 'I too sabi' style I will point out to you that I said you learnt "something" not "all things" from their posts..

There you go again committing the same offence that you condemned someone else of- rushing to reply the post without reading it well.

alexleo: I repeat again- mbaemeka you are always WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES. Twisting my words like you twist the bible will not work.

I am not only wise in my own eyes. I am wise in God's eyes. I am wise in my Alma mater's eyes (from Nursery to . . .) And I am also wise in your own eyes. It is the Lords doing and it is marvellous in your...you know the rest. Thank you.

alexleo: Unfortunately you wouldnt have said it the way he did. Your own would ve carried the usual "I too sabi" traits.(Sorry but thats just my view). He is a good teacher. Its a gift. I enjoyed reading him. Infact i read through his post again and again and i learned from his points.

To the pure in heart all things are pure.

Whether you learnt from him or Nlmediator or Gombs I could careless. As long as you learnt something (of the truths in their posts) then my joy is fulfilled.

shdemidemi: Yes, he was introducing a way of righteousness asides the law/the flesh. He was intoducing a righteousness that can only be found in God by the acceptance of the gospel of Christ(death, burial, resurrection)

If you say Paul wasn't saying no one is righteous, My question to you would then be- who on the face of the earth is righteous?



Bro, you don't seem to understand what it means not to know God's will. For illustration sake, do you know how you will spend your entire day tomorrow? I don't think so. You can only make plans and speculations but only God knows and bring things into fruition.

Paul knew what God wanted Him to know, he had no complete picture of what God was doing. At a point he said he wasn't sure if he was going to be killed or not, but every time he finds himself alive he will continue the work of faith(preaching the gospel).

Same applies to any man in scripture, even Jesus told the disciples only God knows time and seasons.

The bible made it clear that we know not how to pray as we ought to, because we are limited by our flesh.
Romans 8
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Only the Spirit of God can pray according to God's will for He knows the complete will of God concerning us.


The bible never said the office of the Holy Spirit was to do what Jesus did- we were informed about the office and roles of the Holy Spirit by Christ Himself. Please check what they are.



Exactly, God revealing a titbit of Himself to man does not equate to the man knowing the complete will of God for their lives. God showed a part of Himself to the patriarchs and pioneers of the gospel does not mean they know the absolute will of God.

Today, God has revealed the part of Himself that was hidden from humanity through Christ/the word(not the bible) but His will concerning our daily living remains secret to man.


Wishful thinking is what you erroneously interpret as God's will.

Do you know when you will die, that is if you think you would eventually do at some point?

Anyone that believes with their hearts and confesses with their mouth the lordship of Jesus is righteous.

Knowing how to spend my 'entire' tomorrow doesn't mean I know God's will. God's will isn't what always happens. God's will is what God desires to happen. It wasn't God's will to have the woman bent over by the Spirit of infirmity. So when Jesus saw the woman he ensured that God's will be done- which was to get the Demon off the woman. That's clear enough.

You have mentioned complete and absolute picture quite a number of times. I just perused this thread again before replying and I couldn't find a single post that suggests anyone bar God has the full picture. What we have said for certain is that there are certain things God has definitely revealed clearly in his word one of which is that sickness and diseases are not from him. In fact anything that impedes the furtherance of the gospel can NEVER be from God. You can decide to place whatever you think should be there in that box.

Paul was befuddled between staying with the church or going to be with Jesus. At a later stage he said "I have run my course, I have finished my race". He was doing the same thing with our Template Jesus who said his meat was to do the work of the one that sent him and to Finish his work. How could Jesus and Paul tell when they had finished the work? They must have known what the work was.

Romans 8 didn't say we don't know how to pray neither did it say we don't know what to pray for. It said we don't know what to pray for AS WE OUGHT to. Which means we OUGHT TO know what to pray for. Jesus said Men OUGHT always to pray and not faint. Which means Men Must/Should pray. So if the same bible says as we ought to know what to pray for then my dear it means we ought to. That's why the Holy Spirit HELPS us to do it. He helps us because we are to know it but sometimes we don't.

The role of the Holy Spirit is part of what got lost with some of those threads. In a nutshell- he is a teacher, advocate, standby, intercessor, helper, comforter, strengthener, COUNSELLOR.

Again with the absolute will. God speaks every day. He knows what your day can be like and he counsels us from within. He is the one who says "this is the way to go" "this is what you should say". Thats my own relationship with God. I don't know about yours.

When it is time for me to leave this world God will let me know. It will never be random. I will not board a plane and crash and I will not be in a car and have an accident. I will not be sick- infact I cannot be sick. I will not be hit by a bullet or whatever that seems to kill people. I know some people on this thread believe they can die like that and most assuredly they will- for if you believe something in your heart and declare it with your mouth you will have what you say. It is not Wishful thinking my dear- that's exactly what Jesus taught and it applies to every ramifications of life and spirituality. I agree with Gombs. When I study the lives of the Heroes in the bible all of them knew what was coming before they checked out and it wasn't a premonition. I will not have any less of the same Grace. Amen.

ayoku777: While it is true that christians suffer and indeed should suffer; even so we should be careful not to attribute every suffering and affliction that comes our way as being something we should go through. Some are attacks from the devil to truncate our destiny, while some are just natural consequences of the fall. Both of which we can and should exercise authority over as new creations in Christ.

Take Jesus for example, the template of our faith; even though He knew He came to suffer, shed His blood and give His life for us; He also knew when NOT TO DIE or just suffer for suffering sake.

There was a time they wanted cast Him down a cliff in Luke 4. Verse 30 said "But he passing through the midst of them went His way.". Another time after saying He and His father are one, the jews took up rocks to stone Him "but He escaped out of their hands. -John 10v39." Did He escape because He was afraid of death and suffering? Or He simply knew which suffering had nothing to do with the will of God

Also here; John 11v53-54 -Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the jew; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

Did Jesus leave Jerusalem for Ephraim out of fear of persecution? Or He simply knew when not to suffer and what affliction had nothing to do with God's purpose?

What about when He told his disciples that they should cross over to the other side, and a storm met them on the way. They woke Jesus up. What did He do? He didn't encourage them to endure it. Or call it "afflictions of the righteous" or "hazards of mission work". No, He rebuked the storm, because it was a storm to be rebuked not endured. And He turned around and rebuked His disciples for their unbelif, becaus He expected them to have done the same in His name.

All these shows that knowing the will of God and being a matured christian also involves knowing when NOT TO SUFFER, knowing when to rebuke a storm and not endure it.

Jesus came to suffer, die and resurrect for us, even so, He didn't just let himself be pushed around, stoned at will or endure every storm in the name of "affliction of the righteous." Infact, if you study the scriptures, you will discover that the only time He let himself be man-handled was from gethsmane to golgotha. No one and nothing could harm Him before then. He was incharge, even of His own suffering. That is Jesus -our template.

Its not everything we suffer that Has anything to do with the will of God, or even something to help us grow spiritually. A lot of them are just natural challenges of life which we can exercise authority over as new creation. And some are even devil-orchestrated storms designed to prevent us from "crossing to the other side". Which God expects us to rebuke in His name, as He did -not endure it.

For many christians "thy will be done" has become just another fancy expression to describe throwing our hands in the air and submitting to whatever happens. We ought to know the will of God that we are asking to be done, otherwise it is submitting to FATE not to the WILL OF GOD.

In closing let me say this, christianity is not comfort or suffering, it is being filled and led of the spirit. Comfort is not carnality and suffering is not spirituality. Christian maturity is beseeching to behold the glory of Christ, and doing that entails both times to abase and times to abound.

If I had seen this before posting I would have simply requoted you. You have said everything I wanted to say.

God bless you.

shdemidemi: Now, you need to understand the Old Covenant the nation of Israel had with God. Self-righteousness was a valid principle on which to approach God under the law. Hezekiah's prayer would almost be ungodly in this present dispensation of grace, he was presenting self-justification, self-righteousness and his own merits.

Romans 3 declared to the church after the resurrection of Christ that none is good, not one. We are all in the cesspool of sin justified only on the back of the righteousness of the only one that is good.




On the contrary, no man knows the detailed will of God. All we know and stand firmly upon is the sure word that says -all things will work together for good to those who are called by God. The day any man knows exactly what tomorrow holds for him is the same day God seizes to be God all by Himself.



These men(apostles) knew nothing about God's holistic plan for their lives. They trusted God's word and thus they were sold out to what they were assigned to do. They never had any a preconceived plan to do miracles but latch on to what God was doing through them by the help of the Holy Spirit at that era of Pentecost(initiation of the church).



No man/no Christian knows God's will for their life like I said earlier, we can only soar with Him as His Spirit leads.

There are so many things wrong with this post and most of them were thrashed out before the decimation of threads that occurred on NL. It will be exhausting to start re-gurgitating some of those truths again.

whether Hezekiah prayed self righteous prayers or not is not in contention. I simply said he got a response from God even when the all knowing God knew why it was better that Hezekiah checked out 15 years earlier than he did. I even concluded that true maturity is accepting what God has willed for a situation. In other words, Hezekiah was better of accepting to check out 15 years earlier.

As per Romans 3 please read it in context. Paul wasn't saying that no one is righteous- that will be a lie. In the context he was saying no one WAS righteous going by even the standard of the law and indeed no one could ever be. He was trying to set the floor ready to introduce righteousness by faith there.

As per the will of God, there are many of us that know the will of God for our lives. Paul knew his, peter knew his, John knew his and so on. It is not new. If you fellowship with God enough he will speak to you and you will know. It takes nothing away from the scripturesfor what God reveals to you he always does it in line with his word. Remember Paul was told not to go to Bithynia to preach, he was also told that the ship will suffer wreck but no man's life will be lost. That was specific enough if you ask me.

Scripture contradicts you totally on whether the apostles performed miracles because of any pentecost. The Holy Spirit came to replace Jesus as the second paraklete. He does exactly what Jesus did while on earth and he will never stop (I emphasize the never). Also you said if God reveals his plans to a man he ceases to be God. That's another lie. God has been in the business of revealing his plans to his kids. He let Abraham know about his intention to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah. He let Moses know about his plans to wipe out the stiff-necked Israelites. There's a scripture that says the things that God reveals to us are subject to change. If he doesnt reveal it to us then nobody can do anything about it. For example, no one knows when the 'rapture will occur'. That day only God knows.

Many christians know the will of God for their lives. Many of us. If you don't know yours then you better start listening because God is always speaking to us. Many just don't listen and then get surprised when they get into trouble.

alexleo: ^^^Oga you are always wise in your own eyes. Save your long story. God is not a robot. While you make your request to him still make room for his will to prevail. Some of you think you are wiser than God. For me, once I pray for the will of God to prevail it comes out best so I don't know what you are explaining again. Sometimes his will goes in line with my prayers or in contrast but at the end of the day I ll still see that its the best.

Is your God not the one that enters into a man and leaves the man and re-enters the man and leaves the man? Is your God not the one that takes note of women that use attachments and make up? Is that not your petty God? That is the robot we are talking about.

Jesus said the kingdom of God doesn't come through your careful observation. You don't say since God didn't respond to what I prayed for then it is against his will for my life. That's nonsense. Paul prayed to God to relieve him of his persecution and God RESPONDED saying my strength is made manifest in your weakness. The issue is that Paul heard God, he didn't assume like some faithless christians that anything that happens is the will of God.

As you may have noticed, I do not talk about the word of God like someone that is still guessing. I am sharing with you things that I put to work every day with tremendous results. If it makes me look wise to you it is because I am very wise. I prayed for it and I received it immediately. I didn't wonder if it was Gods will to make me dumb instead then conclude "may thy will be done o God". Trying to spiritualize unbelief like some of you have done to your own peril.

You may choose not to respond to me again or you may let God's will be done. What ever that means.

alexleo: Sometimes some of us christians think that God is our robot that we can manipulate anyhow. Yes faith works but faith doesnt mean that God should foolishly fall to your faith even when he is seeing that the faith you are exercising is not going to earn you any good. As much as we are exercising our faith in Christ let us also give room for "thine will be done". God is not a slowpoke. Jesus asked for the cup to be removed(typical of the flesh) but he quickly made room for God's will to be done. This flesh is so selfish and can never give better offer than God. If God in his wisdom feels its time to take me out of this world to come and be with him why should i feel he should keep me more? Since when did my little wisdom become much more than God's wisdom? Some of you are telling stories here. At the end of the day God will always have his way. " I will show mercy to whom i will show mercy". Thats God. If he doesnt want to show you mercy then you are wasting your time.

God always responds to faith. He responded to Hezekiahs faith even when what he demanded for was contrary to God's will for his life. That's the first thought you have to settle in your mind and stop relegating God's word to your experiences.

There is a good will, an acceptable one and a perfect will of God. Christian maturity is all about walking in the perfect will of God for your life. A totally disconnected issue from what obtains on this thread. Learn to spot the difference.

For one to say thy will be done one must already know what that will is or else you are just faithless and will be tossed to and fro by the devil. Or how else do you explain why Paul healed a man who slept during his service falling from a tall building and dying? Why didn't Paul wonder if it was GOD'S WILL to have the man raised back to life? Why didn't he just concede that it was Gods will and leave the man dead? You see Christian maturity also includes knowing the mind of God at each point in time and this becomes known when we spend time 'koinonia-ing' with him by the Holy Spirit. That's why Jesus could sacrifice his fleshly desire to let the cup pass from him by accepting the will of God- a will he knew about. Same way with Peter and Paul and even John the Baptist. They all knew what God expected of them at each point in time (including how they were to die) and they accepted it exemplifying true Christian maturity.

So the question for you and your ilk is: Do you know thw will of God for your life? If you do not know it you may accept an attack from the devil as one and die miserably even when it was against God's will for your life. Do you pray to be relieved of a situation and when it doesn't work you automatically assume it must be the will of God? What if you didn't have faith as much as you thought for the situation or what if what you thought was faith wasn't really faith?

The scriptures are clear about somethings that we can be sure of. For example, sicknesses and diseases do not come from God. God wants us well because we serve him better that way. Besides he let Jesus die for us. So when any christian is attacked by a disease he/she doesn't need to ask God whether it is his will- it can never be. What we need to do is exercise our God given rights to either pray to him to 'heal us' or command the healing to take place by using his name on the situation. That's why the apostles didn't ask God for his will before healing people. They simply acted on his word. So again spot the difference so you won't be bashed by the devil any how and erroneously think by some weird means that God had a hand in it.

So to know if it was GOD'S time to call you home at least even you agrees that you must hear from God first before assuming it was his will. Then we can debate on whether one should accept such a call or resist it. I believe that is part of what the OP has been alluding to. For example, we can agree that if God says to you- 'preach the gospel to 1000 men' and you have only done 200 so far when you hear a voice telling you to come home you would surely doubt that such a voice is from God, No?

Now you get the message.

The real question is: what is suffering according to the bible?

Freiburger: ^Even if the bible spoke about long suffering, i personaly understand that as the patience we should exercise during the time of crisis, while avoiding doing the otherwise. Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. at the same time, the bible never encouraged laziness as today's pastors will say ''leave all you are doing behind, come to my church 3-4times a week, and the God of Elijah will provide for you'' that is an exact opposite of what the bible mean't with long suffering.

The scripture you quoted says it was fitting for GOD to make JESUS perfect through suffering. Why did God make Jesus suffer? To make us suffer like Jesus or did Jesus do the suffering for us?

The answer still lies in the definition of suffering. If by suffering you mean falling in and out of sickness, Praying and receiving no answers, failing in school, business, life etc. Dying, being broke, scraping through life and so on. Then no christian is destined to suffer. But if you are referring to persecution for the Gospel sake. Being rejected for your faith, family turning on you etc then that one is mandatory and Jesus told us so.

Processor01: The responses here are quite chilling and sad to read from Christians.
No wonder it is written that whoever loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. If truly you know your father has prepared a wonderful place for you and you really long to be with him then why the fear of death? Oh, I know, you don't really believe that part because life here seems sweet for you and you'd rather be like Esau and live for the now!
This is my problem with feel good messages being preached these days - you begin to think Earth is a Mega train station or airport where all you have to do is enjoy some coolade while surfing nairaland, waiting for your bus or flight to heaven. Not so brethren! It is going to be an air lift like is often the case of soldiers at war. For some, comfortable (on a greenland) and for some, uncomfortable (under the harsh conditions of a desert).
I took time out yesterday to read "Foxes book of matyrs" (please every Christian should download and read) and I was speechless at the persecution that the early Christians suffered. In some cases, a large number of people were led to christ because of the bravery and peace that these Christians exuded in the face of death (gruesome one and not just being shot or beheaded). In fact, in one case, a pagan standing by was so overwhelmed that he exclaimed "Their God must be so great!" - he was executed too.
Now, my question to some of you here;
i) Who does a soldier take orders from? Who decides when a soldier is withdrawn from war? Are you a soldier of christ? If yes, then on what basis do you decide when to be withdrawn or your opinion sought?
ii) Which of your pair of shoes decides what day to be worn or where to be worn? (after all it was bought with your money and belongs to you, right?) So by whose blood were you bought? To whom do you belong? How then do you decide your fate?
Lastly, the topic of this thread should be changed because it is ridiculous! God ANSWERS ALL PRAYERS! Just as YES is an answer, NO is also an answer except of course you feel God is your errand boy and must answer in the affirmative.

There are so many things wrong with the 'feel bad' message some of God's well meaning children end up accepting and endorsing and one of them is 2 pronged- ignorance and doubt (which is really disobedience if carefully understudied).

The first statement you made has been the most misunderstood message from John. John said he who loves the world does not have the love OF the father in him. He didn't say 'does not have the love FOR the father'. These two statements have a very significant difference between themselves. John meant such a person doesn't know that God loves him that is why the person has such love for the world. On the other hand, many interpret the statement to mean John was saying that the person doesn't love God and that is a lie. Many of you here that come to endorse a suffering Gospel (without being disrespectful) belong to the ilk of those that have love for God but are not aware about the love OF God that should be within. Once a man is ignorant of the love God has for us he/she will invariably look for it elsewhere. I mean, what is wrong in telling people the truth: that God always wants you well; that all good things come from him; that in him lies no shadow of turning or doubts; that he has made provision for all that by sending his son to die; that you are consecrated away from the sufferings that the world is to endure etc.

This is the hard-truth- immortality and life has been brought to light through the gospel. God is not in the business of subjecting us to the same uncertainty that the world experiences. We are in this world but not of the world that is why these things do not own us the way it owns you people.

You make a farce of things to think that because I have resisted Satan's desire to take me out of the world so it means that I am afraid of death. Please study, scripture says Jesus came to liberate those who through FEAR OF DEATH were all their life subject to bondage. Why did he do so? Because, Satan used death to cripple people. Lazarus' sisters, Jarius Daughter, Peter as well as other disciples deserted Jesus before because of the same fear. But when they realised the power they had over death they began to serve God better knowing that satan could not snatch their lives at any point like he was doing before. That is the message we are trying to pass. Peter, James, John, Phillip, Paul, Stephen and so on all were tortured at various points. Some of them resisted death until they were certain they were through with their assignments. Some of them didn't bother- they were tired of the world. Some of them didn't know this truth and they were killed. They awoke to a better resurrection but the fact is that they didn't accomplish what they were sent to do and for those of them we have their experiences to learn from. How do you explain the instance when Paul and Silas were slated to be killed but by prayer and singing of praises to God they were miraculously set free? How do you explain when Paul was murdered by the Jews but when his fellow disciples stood around him a man that was stoned and left for dead miraculously gets up immediately and travels the next day to preach in other regions? If he was killed and left for dead by his fellow disciples (assuming they said it was the will of God) would he have gone on to preach the gospel to other regions prior to then? Didn't you read where they hugged him and kissed him good bye at his final moments? Why do you suppose they did that? They knew he had accomplished his assignment. How do I know? Because Paul said exactly so to them even predicting what false teachers will come to do as soon as he is out of the way. It was more than a mere premonition. He knew he had run his course. We too know, so like Jesus we are running quickly because the time is short. We are not living life as though any day we would be snatched like carnal men. NO! When we are done we would check out- either Enochan style or the Moses way.

Whether Hezekiah wept sore, prayed for years, sowed seeds, declared words etc is immaterial. The crux of the issue is that he DECIDED not to die at the point that God wanted him to and that is a lesson for those of us that enjoy a better covenant based on better promises as another poster has said. It is actually a struggle for any one to claim that it was the weeping sore or what not that moved God- ONLY faith can. I can show us another person who sought a thing from God in tears but it didn't yield.


Hebrews 12:17King James Version (KJV)

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Scripture says Esau sought his blessings CAREFULLY with TEARS yet he was rejected. Esau wasn't in the "clique" of those who through faith could obtain promises. Hebrews says some others got their dead back to life (because they knew such deaths wasn't according to God's will) while some were tortured and had the option of disappearing from their assailants midst as did Jesus but they turned it down because they looked forward to a better resurrection. Some of them even braggadociosly felt the world wasn't worthy of them so like Stephen they commended their spirits into God's hand and checked out. There are many others that resisted death even when it showed up. They were aware like Elijah and Jesus that they had an innumerable number of angels standing watch over them ready to strike at the faintest call of help. These ones have escaped the worst car crashes, gun shot wounds and even death itself unscathed. Their testimonies are of immense value to us because they give credence to the bible truth that the body of christ is above death. Such that even when we DECIDE to leave this world we would do it in a way that glorifies God.

Praise the Lord! Halleluyah!

Which brings us back to the issue of Hezekiah. If Hezekiah had just accepted God's will for his life and died when God asked him to some of you would have had a case to refer to. But no, he refused to die and God let him have it his way (even though the extra years he spent on earth were miserable).

Gombs and Nlmediator are correct. When it comes to God's kids (like the Heroes in the bible) they all had their say. Several times Paul was destined to be killed but he resisted it all the time. When the end of his course had come, like his master Jesus he declared that it was time and he checked out. It was not a mystery neither was it some random unseen event. They decided it by accepting it. Take a cursory look at Stephen and advise yourself.

Hebrews 11:35King James Version (KJV)

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Some of the Disciples that some of you think just died anyhow have a different account to yours and I think we should do well to listen to them. They were "tortured" we agree, but they had a deliverance to accept yet they turned it down because they wanted a better resurrection and because the world wasn't worthy of them. Period.

If Paul didn't think he had finished his course he knew enough to resist his death. This is the same Paul that was confused between staying with the church or departing and being with Christ. If Peter didn't think it was his time to check out he would have had resisted it too. But they accepted it and that is the lesson for all of us.

A christian should give glory to God in every aspect of his life: Actions, words, life and even death. When a christian enters a plane on his way to preach in a place and dies in a crash he has not glorified God that way. Naysayers and Fearful skeptics A.K.A Atheists will mock him saying "why did so and so die like that?" If a Christian is bed-ridden with sickness and then dies in that state like Elisha did such a death doesn't glorify God. I understand that E.W Kenyon or so walked around telling everyone he knew that God had told him to come home. On that very day he sat on a rocking chair and said to his daughter "I told you Jesus was coming for me. There he is" and then he checked out. Even at the point of Dying, God's power over death was evident. What a way to go. There is another popular MOG in Nigeria whose father checked out the same way a few years back. He was praying with his wife in the morning but instead of re-echoing the words in the scripture he opened he said "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit". The wife was taken aback and kept advising him to change his confession and instead say "I shall live I shall not die, I shall declare the good works of the lord in the land of the living" but he refused and kept saying the same thing: "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit". The man knew that if he changed his confession he will get a different result so he stuck to it. After a while the wife ran to call the young man that stayed with them so that he could talk some sense into her husband. When the young man walked in, he saw the man already lying on his back. The man smiled and checked out. That is the way to go.

The message of faith has to be preached more accurately so that Christians will rule and dominate all the wiles of the devil- including death! It is only when the message is preached that Christians will take advantage of it afterall it is through Knowledge that the righteous is delivered (Proverbs 11:9)