₦airaland Forum

tdayof:
Even IRAN. henry I think we need someone to talk to those oga at the top about the need for homemade manufacturing. Even if it is a fast development on our UAV.
https://blog.tankpedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/309994_10151267004923603_758702725_n-thumb-560x373-171921.jpg

Plastic stealth jets?

africaken254:
yes recently a russian/syrian drone entered israel air space and israel tried to shot it with a patriot missile and a F-16 was sent to shot down but both failed .the drone safely flew back to syria

The significance this?

africaken254:
the discourse started with me clearly stating that most sub-sahara countries (i dont know why others categories south africa among this nations) will find it difficult penetrating a network of legacy air defence systems of soviet era.

This quote is from the SAAF Astra magazine(2005 4th edition):

" On the ground the Tactical Mobile Radar, used for the provision of an accurate air picture, “paints” the aircraft from about 40 miles out and acts as an early warning system that gives controllers the direction, airspeed and number of aircraft in formation. A controller inside ASCARI would subsequently warn the different weapon systems about the incoming bogeys and imminent attack. Weapon systems like the SA-8 SAM then go into a search mode in order to detect the target, get a lock-on and launch a missile. Pilots avoid detection for as long as possible by flying nap-of-the-earth or by making use of stand-off radar jamming, effectively “clouding” the radar scopes, ostensibly rendering their presence a myth. As soon as the aircraft detects weapon systems on the ground, it is able to identify what mode they are in. A shrill audio tone, together with a flashing light inside the cockpit, warns the pilot as soon as lock-on occurs or a SAM is fired. The pilot is then expected to make use of electronic countermeasures such as self-protection jamming and chaff dispensing, evasive manoeuvres and making use of his/her flying skills and tactics to ultimately outwit the ground-system operators. The well-known saying, “chaff is king”, demonstrated it's truth when it once again lent a helping hand in getting pilots out of tight spots when missiles had their unrelenting eyes on them. All information captured by the weapon systems during these mock strikes is sent to ASCARI by means of optic fibres. There it is recorded by the EW evaluators of air crew and ground forces for later analysis and debriefing of pilots and EW operators with regard to their performance during the attacks."

patches689:
Where did the helo with digicam come from?

Bell helicopters. It's the 407 anti-poaching version. It was here for the AAD.

Guess since Botswana like us have poaching problems instead of being flown home after ADD it was displayed and demonstrated there.

africaken254:
the discourse started with me clearly stating that most sub-sahara countries (i dont know why others categories south africa among this nations) will find it difficult penetrating a network of legacy air defence systems of soviet era.

It has been done before and still can be.

ActivateKruger:
Something SANDF about this picture

SADC thing.

Involvement with the region elite units.

andrewza:
Please SAAF did it with legacy air craft. These days those systems will be targets not threats

SAAF had a complege SA-8 SAM system. Which was utilized for training purposes in the 90s and early 20s.

nemesis2u:
i am inclined to believe u on the marketing thing.

but i am positive regarding my believe that someday in the future we will be seeing laser based CRAM. we had Israelis down here and they were very positive about it. looked like it was going to be their next venture.

some info on HEL MD
HEL MD is a giant high-energy laser outfitted atop a 500-horsepower Oshkosh 8×8 tactical vehicle. In its most recent testing, Boeing focused its 10-kilowatt laser on more than 150 airborne bogeys, which included both mortars and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Inducing a high level of heat on contact, the laser system burns the target until it either blows up – in the case of the mortars – or crashes.

The laser now deployed is 10kw (kilowatts), up coming models will be in the 50-60kw range.The HEL MD tracks and engages its targets through a state-of-the-art infrared targeting system.

The brute sources power from a 60kW diesel generator, which spools energy to a bank of lithium ion batteries, giving the HEL MD a feasibly endless supply of drone-zapping laser power … so long as the operators pack a few diesel jerrycans

I'm not saying systems in this class will never prove effective. I'm just not convinced they are all weather capable.

Kinetic munition in the form missiles though highly expensive I believe they are better. Able to attack out of sight targets.

Cost effectiveness is they bring to the field.

nemesis2u:
technology improves every second lolzzz maybe i am cutting it too close

but in 2014 HEL-MD (high energy laser mobile device) 10kw output was field tested in multiple weather conditions successfully by Boeing . it shot down mortars through fog, rain, clouds etc.

though it still has to be validated in snowy weather , if they have done it in the meantime i have no info.

vamooseeeeeeee...........henry240 cant catch me now

Last one before mods are called to throw us out.

There's a bit of marketing there. The multiple telescopes Rheinmetall will have an out of 30kw. Though cause of the number of telescopes.

nemesis2u:
off topic but saw everybody discussing C RAM, let me chip in with laser based C RAM which is the way forward because of greater lethality against a wide envelop of targets , cost effectiveness , etc. already work is progressing in many countries. Rheimetall already has a working prototype i think based on their 35mm revolver gun turret.

and now time for me to vamoose before somebody.....................

Just in time before you can go anywhere!


Criticism in my part of the world regarding laser based platform over kinetic munition based system is that the former isn't all weather capable. Similar to when GPS was introduced to air to ground guided munitions cause their effectiveness was reduced in cloudy, misty weather or when there's around.

Yes, I think they(Rheinmetall) were working on the multiple telescopes version but still based on the same turret.

ActivateKruger:
I'm not denying the value of C-RAM systems, however missiles are very costly to be integrated.

In a case like Bangui where cheap rockets would be fired at the airport... How many missiles would one have to use to deflect those many rockets?. Remember rockets and mortar are cheaper and easily available than missiles and you would just run out of them within a few minutes of while rockets and mortar would be sustained for hours-on-end.

Funds for system integration into the existing command and control will be cheaper.

One of the capabilities the upgrade provides is the ability track and locate the origin of fire.

Rounds which are fired by not so well trained people with their advisors aren't going to be accurate. The system similar to the Israeli Iron dome engages threats which are going to fall where your assets are. Fire can't be sustained in a residential area.

andrewza:
What the problem with the 35mm guns, remember the DPG on the frigates can do a lot more than the Cheata CRAM could ever doand though I could see a navlized version it would supplement not replace. The DPG are not going any where and are one of the best CIWIS out there.

The 35mm was not purchased for C-RAM. They air defence and that is it. The Sky Shield Radar is what made it possible but even then that was the uninitiated but welcomed result of making the radar better.

Far more basic version of the gun with a far more basic radar have the most kills from the Falkland's war

Let's just say they are troublesome.

Maybe in attacking surface targets.

It isn't just the fire control unit(radar, IR sensor etc)

I believe it was the because of funds that the revolver guns which were demonstrated to the SANDF(Their C-RAM capability) were aren't purchased.

ActivateKruger:
Unless there's very important objects you're protecting in your base, like aircrafts or a person like Nelson Mandela is around THEN the costs are justifiable otherwise not even JZ is worth that saving.

The battle of Bangui imagine if the regional decided to intervene and SA had to capture Bangui again.


The air port there would be a sought after target by rebels still in the city. Mortars, Chinese rocket launchers etc.


Or say the FIB had to retake Goma from M23.


Paratroopers or elite troops can be insisted into the air port seize it to be used as a command post, logistics base etc. Aircraft bring supplies will be a target hard to ignore so attempts will be made to destroy them on the ground.

ActivateKruger:
You forgot the Umkhonto SAM, even if it's just 8 of them are fitted. You'd need a submarine to get rid of one when roaming in your waters

The Umkhonto and an Exocet class missiles would be an overkill.

Maybe a naval or SAM version of the A-Darter missile.

ActivateKruger:
True that, nothing justifies firing a missile at an oncoming projectile if the projectile itself is not a missile.

The assets provided are way expensive than the missile used to protect the area they are situated.

Can used to protect rear areas or assets: Command posts, fuel and ammo stores, artillery, ground based air defence systems, air bases etc

In Operations other than war(OOTW) parliament buildings, events(such as the World cup, Madiba's funeral) etc where VVIPs are on the ground, Power stations or plants (Koeberg). The area can be protect.

In OOTW ROE will be tight the decision to engage will come from the top (ministry level). In an urban sitting threats can be masked from the line of sight cannon systems while a decision is sought.

Again our forces will not have the cover of the Gripens at all times only to follow on later.

ActivateKruger:
How many missiles would one have to fire to stop free falling mortar shells?

If mortar hits a machanised or motorised platoon, they can simply press on and gunships can deal with it. BUT if it's a base or camp that's under 120mm attack, then definitely someone is not doing his perimeter patrol because how on earth does an enemy sneak in such a big firing pipe within range.

Doctrine and SOPs would be drawn on how many missiles are fired at a single target.

In most African peace missions the rear areas stretch into the nearest cities. With us Africans we can't supply our forces with air drops.

It's easier to smuggle weapons into the cities. Peacekeepers can't open amd search every bag of coal coming into the city.

patches689:
Missiles are fvck expensive though

Cheaper to look at a auto-cannon based platform

I concur.

But missiles are still better.


Auto-cannons spent more time on a single target. Effectiveness of them is a bit iffy when dealing with super sonic anti-ship missiles.

Besides replacing the dual purpose guns with another cannon based platform would mean getting something foreign. The Rheimetall revolver gun(Naval version) of the Skyshield being the likely system to be acquired.

Imagine the Biro vessels with: 76mm gun, Remote controlled machine gun, The C-RAM missile and the Mokopa missile. Way heavily armed.

I believe there's a market.

ssaengine:
Another one of Denel's projects that the public forget about. Marlin family of missiles....80-100km range.

Hopefully with the new government in Brazil funds will be invested into this project.


Maybe a new ground based launcher will be developed. Meaning Denel can go back to designing boosters attached at the "back end" of the missile not around the body like the Umkhonto SAM.

ssaengine:
We're not like the Americans....no budget to have dedicated skills for each project. Usually a mix and match. If a specific skill is lacking in-house, can always give CSIR (for example) a call. Or perhaps a university or 2.

CSIR is the heart of SA's defence industry.

Almost every weapon system developed or in production in SA can trace it's roots to CSIR. From missiles, ECM, Radars, vehicles even the Rooivalk.

But stealth tech is something else not taught anywhere. Just hoping we didn't lose the chaps who started in this field.

chinese8107:
China autogyro drone

Autogyro (or Gyroplane )

An autogyro is characterized by a free-spinning rotor that turns because of the passage of air through the rotor from below.The vertical (downward) component of the total aerodynamic reaction of the rotor gives lift for the vehicle, and sustains the autogyro in the air. A separate propeller provides forward thrust, and can be placed in a tractor configuration with the engine and propeller at the front of the fuselage (e.g., Cierva), or pusher configuration with the engine and propeller at the rear of the fuselage (e.g., Bensen).
Whereas a helicopter works by forcing the rotor blades through the air, drawing air from above, the autogyro rotor blade generates lift in the same way as a glider's wing by changing the angle of the air as the air moves upwards and backwards relative to the rotor blade.The free-spinning blades turn by autorotation; the rotor blades are angled so that they not only give lift,but the angle of the blades causes the lift to accelerate the blades' rotation rate, until the rotor turns at a stable speed with the drag and thrust forces in balance.

Autogyro is a never crash aircraft.even if losing power in air,it can make a free fall gliding landing,becaue of very light weight.

Or it can be hand made a none drone version

Wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed that the DP..RK has these as part of their plan to insert the first wave of SF troops to South Korea if war ever comes.

Henry240:
The Badger is quite a beautiful vehicle.

Only if beauty hypnotized opponents.

Though I wish for it to never have to fire it's weapon in anger, it has to justify if it indeed deserves it's name (Ratel).

Like it's animal namesake it has some thick skin. Promises not to mind bites in the African Bush.

Badger don't care.

ssaengine:
http://itweb.co.za/mobilesite/defenceweb/home/item_id-45213/

Denel Dynamics unveils Cheetah C-RAM system

"Denel Dynamics has unveiled a system it is developing to protect deployed forces against rocket, artillery and mortar attacks.

The Counter-Rocket, Artillery and Mortar (C-RAM) system combines the Rheinmetall Skyshield protection system and Denel's Cheetah missile system, which is currently under development."


If things go right over the next few years this system will be a game changer. I know we've been told to TRY and look neat & tidy , as various delegations will be coming to campus to get more info on the system. But most informal at the moment.

Wish a naval version(CIWS) of the missile to be developed in the future to replace the problematic Dual purpose guns.

Looks like the defence force isn't satisfied with the performance of the 35mm guns in the C-RAM role. Rheinmetall demonstrated their revolver guns to the defence force prior to the upgrade.

Now that the C-RAM missile looks like to be going ahead. Wonder what will happen to the Stealth Ingwe.

Would have gave SA an opportunity to maintain skills not taught any where but I doubt the lads with the skills(stealth tech) are still around.

frumentius:
Or, instead of starting from scratch, come in as 50% partner with Denel so the Bateleur -stalled after the prototype because of a lack of funds - can finally be developed.

Highly unlikely the development of this aircraft would be resurrected.

Banking world snatched many.

jakeporeshenko:
Senegalese trooos training, these guys seem properly kitted

Marines?

ssaengine:
1. South African A-Darter missile
2. Intial design of Chinese PL-10 missile

They initially thought they could steal a lot more info on A-Darter. So initially just went ahead with our design. And when the initial stolen info dried up, they were forced to use their own intellect and change their design.

P.S this is an unofficial story and may or may not be completely made up :-)

The new PL-10 design resembles the IRIS-T SRAAM.

Ingwe light.

patches689:
OMFG

Yes dude.

Well played. Good find!

Saw it last night, not great but getting there.

Journalists are protected as promised.

Wish they had uploaded the video on YouTube.

"Escorted by the legendary Rooivalk combat helicopter, Carte Blanche travels to a recently-captured military camp deep in the tropical forests north of Beni, in the Democratic Republic of Congo. John Webb gains exclusive access to the SANDF’s forward-operating bases in the infamous Triangle of Death in North Kivu province as we visit our soldiers on the frontline in the battle against ADF rebels. We find soldiers who have distinguished themselves both in the field of battle as well as in crucial."


http://carteblanche.dstv.com/player/1121344/

Rooivalk combat support helicopter.

Henry240:
I remember how his troops cried when they lost him. I can still hear them wailing.

1 January 2014.

Charismatic leader.

Strange that both him and his boss. The guys who were critical in defeating M23(which was said to be supported by some neighbouring nations) are now gone.

FIBUA training.

DRC army.
FARDC.
Late Colonel Mamadou Ndala.

patches689:
Slavs sit on top for the quick dismount, it's also a "tradition" that dates back to ww2 and was helped along by shitty cold war designs

Doesn't matter what you give them, or how long you spend on the training field... As soon as they get into the operational area they start surfing IFVs.

It's just how they are.

In some battlefield in the 80s.

Rebels would fall from IFVs they were riding on top. Troops inside would observe fellow kwachas quickly taking weapons, and other personal things from their fallen comrades and bury in shallow graves.

HE shells or bombs are deadly.