₦airaland Forum

MrPresident1:
Muttleylaff, Master of long long Turanci

I held back
Bro your too much dependency on just strong meat alone is not healthy
Try having the recommended daily fruit and salads too
Not sure about English salads
but that Greek salad afterall wasnt that bad on the palate or was it

MrPresident1:
Three lures have been given you my brother , again I say, come

Efrebor efrebor
PMSL, I warned you, you go wound ooo
Saw you reading my rebuttal on the thread you invited me to
Cat got your tongue now, erh

psucc:
Op you're wrong!!!
Paul, in the quoted portion did not mean the way you understand it.
In fact, so many parts of the world is yet to see the Light.

Yes ooo, a soul is born every minute
and so correct that many are yet to see hear the gospel

Dont mind him jaare, Paul in Colossians 1:23, used the Aorist Passive Participle for ''proclaimed''

MrPresident1:
Don't tell us your opinion, we don't need it.
Back your point(s) with scriptures

psucc:
Hahhaahha. When you only choose to believe the ones that suit your likings, how will you know.
Just look around you and tell yourself the truth.
Even here in Nigeria, we still have communities where the gospel has not yet reached.

Paul must have thought of Nigeria et al,
and that's why the Aorist Passive Participle for ''proclaimed'' in Colossians 1:23
didnt say anything about the state of whether the proclaiming is completed, in process or continual

MrPresident1:
Mr Chairman sir, you need to back your point with Scriptures otherwise you are only expressing vain opinions .
The Bible makes it clear to us that the Gospel has been preached to EVERY CREATURE under heaven.

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If you like listen, if you like do not listen, but it is recorded that this message got to you

MrPresident1:
Muttleylaff is brainstorming and consulting all his arsenal
Come here let me tear you to pieces

Aje kun iya ni o je
Aje kun iya ni o je
E ni ti o to nina, tin leri, de na de ni'
Aje kun iya ni o je

if indeed you continue in the faith, established and firm,
and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,
having been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I Paul have become a minister.
- Colossians 1:23 Berean Literal Bible

Proclaimed in ''having been proclaimed'' is the Greek translated word ''keruchthentos'' or transliterated word ''kerusso''

Proclaimed is an aorist tense
What is aorist?
adjective: aorist
It is relating to or denoting a past tense of a verb (i.e. in regards to the original Greek usage)
which does not contain any reference to duration or completion of the action.

The ''proclaimed'' or ''preached'' in the original Greek is used as an aorist tense

That's the Greek rebuttal done, now closely following suit next below, is the part for the biblical rebuttal:

⁶And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
⁷Saying with a loud voice,
Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:
and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
- Revelation 14:6-7

Revelation 14:6-7 above, shows that the gospel is preached even up to the last hour

Jesus once declared, ''No one who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.''

So my brother, heed the warning, there is a lot more great work to be done,
and dont look back, resting on your oars, thinking that the Gospel has been preached to all the world,
that every creature under the heaven has heard the Gospel.
or that every single person right now on this planet has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ

MrPresident1:
Come to the thread Muttleylaff, come.

Come let me make mincemeat out of you

Come x3?
Let he who doesnt heed the warning whistle cast the first lure

MrPresident1:
Oya come to the thread, come and provide your Bible based rebutal there.
We don't want any personal opinions

Be careful what you wish for,
You dont want to invite me to the thread ooo

If I provide you with Greek and Bible based rebuttals in there, you go wound ooo

You should have listened to psucc's gentle reprove
I dont do personal opinions, the naked truth is much better
Personal opinions is one of your specialities
and that's why you want a monopoly of personal opinions

MrPresident1:
https://www.nairaland.com/3730724/gospel-already-been-preached-whole

Read this thread , you will see the where from and come about

I knew all along you were banking on Colossians 1:23
You're on a long thing, literally, if you've been interpreting Colossians 1:23
to mean, the Word, has already been preached to every creature under heaven?

MrPresident1:
Muttletlaff, do you know that the Word has already been preached to every creature under heaven?

Where from and how did you come about, that the Word, has already been preached to every creature under heaven?

JMAN05:
You haven't given any prove yet.

The change from using plural to using singular, is the proof, that Paul is addressing an unnamed woman in 1 Timothy 2:11-12

JMAN05:
No anonymous couple occur in the place we are discussing.
I don't see the role of Artemis on what we are discussing

You're in denial
and, unwilling, though harsh it maybe, to accept reality

No, not just any ordinary Artemis
but talking of this particular goddess, called, Artemis of the Ephesians
(i.e. this goddess, known as Artemis of the Ephesians, is that prominent enough, to be actually mentioned, at least 5 times, in Acts 19)

Things are never as straightforward as we might at first imagined my friend
When you put the pieces together, you will see the role of the goddess, Artemis of the Ephesians on what's being discussed
Paul is debunking the woman's teaching and refusing to allow this woman a platform to spread & promote her false teaching(s)

JMAN05:
Only if you give relevance of your point to the issue being disccused can I reply your comments.

If you can't show its relevance, then the discussion is over.
I can't reply to what I don't know its relevance

Unfortunately I am not big into spoon feeding grown ups

You have no choice than to back out because you've ran out of steam.
You're unable to piece the story together.

You're in water, too deep to stand in
and to make matters worse, you havent got a lifebuoy
So swim back to shore, whilst you still can, before the undercurrent overwhelms you

JMAN05:
Check the purpose of the thread and reply accordingly

A pastor is a Shepherd,
and women are not reckoned as such in the bible

So why do some churches have female pastors.
Does it mean that they don't read the bible?
1 Tim 2:11-12
- © JMAN05

The above is your intro sentence
It is repeated here to highlight, there is no purpose to a thread that begins with a tautology
On several fronts, the thread is DOA (i.e. dead on arrival)
and shouldnt have warranted being accorded any replies

Aside you starting off on the wrong foot with the tautology thing, women and men are not Shepherd
The proper case Shepherd, you used in the sentence after your tautology, is used only for God
and not used for humans (i.e. Shepherd is not and never used for any man or woman)

You mentioned: ''some churches have female pastors''
then asked: ''Does it mean that they don't read the bible''
and ended with: quoting 1 Tim 2:11-12,
obviously referrring to 1 Tim 2:12's ''I do not permit a woman to teach...'' to make a point

That last sentence, above, from your intro post, too, has another faux pas
So please, here is a question, I am extremely anxious for you to reply to:
Do women sing songs in ekklessia, ''church'', congregation
or sing songs in Jehovah Witness gatherings, where men are present?

JMAN05:
I don't think we have anything here again to discuss.
You don't posit that elders cant be called shepherds.

Imagine if my hands werent gloved
I have continually posited that elders CANT be called shepherds

Elders are called to shepherd the flock, isnt same as, elders are called shepherds
The former is whats expected of elders and not the latter

JMAN05:
Yes, no human should be given such as a title.

Good you accept this.
Not even Shepherd, right?
At least you're consistent, in keeping slowly coming around

JMAN05:
But Eph 4:11 occurs as a noun.

There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither slave nor free,
there is neither male and female;
for you are all one in Christ Jesus
- Galatians 3:28

But Eph 4:11 occurs as a noun is a specious argument
Pity its in plural though
but then I guess that's your one and only lifeline.
and no where else would you find this repeated
PSML, a drowning man will clutch at a straw

JMAN05:
If you don't object to this, the discussion is done with

We are here to feed the sheep, not to entertain the goats
but if you, now, feel like leaving, I am not going to stop you
Soon you'll find that running away or hiding was futile
because someday, you'll look back
and suddenly know exactly all that's discussed so far

MrPresident1:
Good for you

Suspect33:
Dis one u are shinning teeth, let me sef shine my own

Cheesy smile is like a loud infectious laugh
It is likely to spread and influence others doing same

MuttleyLaff:
And he said unto them,
Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
- Mark 16:15

Jesus, in Mark 16:15 above, said: Go into all the world
(i.e. sexuality section particularly included, as them in there wont sniff you, talkless of come into your world)

It is a classic case of ''If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain''

If the souls are in the sexuality section,
so be it, then jump on the soul train
and follow the soul there

The curiosity of checking you out, might just lead them out from sexuality section,
into reading some, if not all, of your other posts, about God's word

Suspect33:
this write-up put a smile on my face, God bless you brother

MrPresident1:
Good for you

MrPresident1:
Yes this is another perspective,
but the problem is that he could get banned and his evangelism is hindered.

My point is, God is able to direct anyone to where he can be nourished, the preacher only needs to push the Word, and make it available.

⁶Next Paul and Silas traveled through the area of Phrygia and Galatia,
because the Holy Spirit had prevented them from preaching the word in the province of Asia at that time.
⁷Then coming to the borders of Mysia, they headed north for the province of Bithynia,
but again the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to go there.
⁸So instead, they went on through Mysia to the seaport of Troas.
⁹That night Paul had a vision:
A man from Macedonia in northern Greece was standing there, pleading with him,
“Come over to Macedonia and help us!”
¹⁰So wec decided to leave for Macedonia at once, having concluded that God was calling us to preach the Good News there.
- Acts 16:6-10

17But to keep them from spreading their propaganda any further,
we must warn them not to speak to anyone in Jesus’ name again.”
18So they called the apostles back in and commanded them never again to speak or teach in the name of Jesus.
19But Peter and John replied, “Do you think God wants us to obey you rather than him?
20We cannot stop telling about everything we have seen and heard.”
21The council then threatened them further, but they finally let them go
because they didn’t know how to punish them without starting a riot. For everyone was praising God
- Acts 4:17-21

Just like in Acts 16:6-10 above, you go where led as you travel through Nairaland
If led to the Religion section, be there,
and if its the Sexuality section you're led to, so be it, go there

Now, Acts 4:17-21 above, shows that threat of banning wouldnt necessarily get evangelism hindered.
You, just do your part of dropping and planting the seed(s) on to the ''earth'' of their souls
The arresting and conviction of souls is done by the Holy Spirit, who will say:
''You do not have to say anything,
but it may harm your defence
if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.
Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

Oh yeah, there will be a court
and God help the one, who hasnt the Advocate, to hold his corner for him

Do you think God wants us to be afraid of banning?
Except where and when explicitly told privately/publicly its off the list/off limits
no where, is out of bounds, for the word of God to be preached

Suspect33:
good morning brether,
i just want to ask, are there place we should not preach Gods word??
Like the sexuality section of nairaland, you get question like 'what did u cme here to find'??

MrPresident1:
Wisdom is profitable to direct.
It is the sexuality section and that place is meant to discuss sex related topics.
Come and do all your evangelism here, God will guide the path of His chosen to where he can be watered.

And he said unto them,
Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
- Mark 16:15

Jesus, in Mark 16:15 above, said: Go into all the world
(i.e. sexuality section particularly included, as them in there wont sniff you, talkless of come into your world)

It is a classic case of ''If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain''

If the souls are in the sexuality section,
so be it, then jump on the soul train
and follow the soul there

The curiosity of checking you out, might just lead them out from sexuality section,
into reading some, if not all, of your other posts, about God's word

GoodMuyis:
MuttleyLaff!
I have few questions for you

#1- Apart from Act 2, other people that Received Holy Ghost, what language was spoken as is "speaking in tongue" did they spoke
and why did they need such language?

Very good question
It is always in the language of the unbelieving members of the audience
(i.e. in the language of unbeliever hearers of Jewish origin)

It needed such language(s) because Jews were dispersed beyond Israel

Preaching the gospel and preaching Jesus is the expected Messiah,
in their languages is meant to be THE sign,
to trigger the unbelieving/unbeliever diaspora Jew & non diaspora Jew
into believing the Good News and accepting Jesus Christ as the expected Saviour

GoodMuyis:
#2- According to you It takes considerable knowledge on ''speak in tongue & pray in tongues''

Yes it does.
With considerable knowledge, the whole gamut of ignorances concerning the truth surrounding the phenomena ''speak in tongue'' and the ''pray in tongue' dissipates
as then, you'll know the truth, and the truth will set you free

GoodMuyis:
What ARE the differences between the two?

The obvious differences between ''speak in tongue'' and the ''pray in tongue' are that:
''speak in tongue'', is expressing oneself in any language, loud enough to be heard and understood in order to make one's thoughts and feelings known

''pray in tongues'', although is expressing oneself in any language,
it unlike ''speak in tongue'' can be silent or mute (i.e. speechless)
as it isnt necessarily always audibly done like ''speak in tongue'' is
In whatever way it's done, it very much is an earnest hope or wish for others or concerning oneself.
''pray in tongues'', can also be an expression of thanks addressed to the Self-existing all-powerful authority influence (i.e. God) or gods

GoodMuyis:
#3- What evidence can you give to ascertain that 99.9% of ''speak in tongue '' claims are not real

Self-incriminating babbling, is one of the damning major reasons and that's the harsh reality
99.9% of ''speak in tongue '' is prattling, travestying the real deal

GoodMuyis:
and give me example of an event where you have seen real one

The three occasions where I've seen people speak in tongues (i.e. speak in a different language) are at Acts 2:8, Acts 10:46 and Acts 19:6
Each instance of the three recorded speaking in tongues happened with articulated utterances
that were coherent enough to other present audiences admitting and understanding the spoken tongues (i.e. spoken languages)

JMAN05:
The fact is, you didnt read my comment well. Thats why you think we were saying the same thing. I bolded what i meant and you were still reading what you mean inside what i meant. Its not my fault.
Read well next time

You might pride yourself
but I never thought, think or say we were saying the same thing

JMAN05:
The issue am after is "pastor" as a noun and not whether it is singular or plural

And I am telling the issue you're after is a non issue
because there is no pastor (i.e. verbatim like that) in the New Testament

JMAN05:
Your position is that the word is not applied to any other person than Christ

110% bible correct

JMAN05:
Although i made some error above, yet your point is not proven yet, as in, that Jesus alone has the title "pastor"

I hear you.
Continue upadan be calling yourselves pastor(s) then

JMAN05:
There is no " pastor/shepherd" (singular) applied to a saint as you posit. You were right on that. I was wrong. That is, if we are discussing "pastor/shepherd" specifically in singular

Learning is never done without errors Thank you for being gracious. Your honesty is admirable.
but hey anytime you read saints concerning "pastor/shepherd" it's mostly, if not all, in the singular and usage is a verb
(i.e. doing, action thing) not as a noun (i.e. title, office things)

JMAN05:
However, stating that "pastor/shepherd" (noun) as a title is not applied to saints is wrong.

Why? Eph 4:11 where you know the title pastors applied to some saints, it would be wrong to say such title is not applied to any saint because it occurred in the plural. That is very wrong. I ve seen no proof for that.

My brother, if you want to be called and prepend your names with Pastor, that's fine.
You arent answerable to me.
You wont be giving account and explaining yourself to me

JMAN05:
You are right. Its verb. I was wrong

Well...

JMAN05:
There is no doubt that Jehovah is the Supreme Shepherd.
However, he has also instructed some humans to shepherd His sheep.
Although it occurred as a verb, one who shepherds a sheep is a shepherd.

Secondly, Eph 4:11 identifies humans as such.

Just because the Shepherd asked you to feed His flock in absentia,
then that automatically and officially makes you a shepherd
Yeah right.

JMAN05:
You have issues with parts of speech. That's glaring.

There isn't any anonymous couple in that chapter. Whether you are also seeing vision, I don't know

Seeing visions? My man got jokes

JMAN05:
I will look that up for knowledge sake. however, it doesn't have any connection to the discussion

Dont be too hasty to make dismissive remarks before doing your looking that up for knowledge sake

JMAN05:
There is no connection to the discussion I find there.

You will eat these words
Personally I would've dropped a comment after looking up for knowledge sake

JMAN05:
I do

Good

JMAN05:
Where did you get this anonymous couple from?

You scoop petroleum from the surface
Pick up diamonds on the ground. Pearls float on water surface isnt it
You've fallen victim to surface level bible reading and studying

Remember particular letter Paul wrote to Timothy started at 1 Timothy 1 and not 1 Timothy 2
Paul began 1 Timothy 1, by first reminding Timothy of how he told Timothy to stay at Ephesus
so Timothy can stop men teaching strange doctrines (i.e. false teaching)
Fast forward 1 Timothy 1 to 1 Timothy 2, things have gone from bad to worse

I'll leave you after your knowledge quest to draw in the line to the goddess (i.e. Artemis of the Ephesians), Genesis 3:16 and Genesis 4:1 dots

JMAN05:
What are you referring to as a singular verb there?

What is a verb?
- a word used to describe an action, condition, experience, state, occurrence
and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence
such as hear, become, happen, shall be saved

When a singular subject (i.e. she) gives you singular verb ''she shall be saved''
It is that singular subject, one woman, who is, will be saved

JMAN05:
Continue is plural verb,
but "they" is plural pronoun.
If you don't want to tell yourself the truth, I ll withdraw from this discussion.

What gender is ''couple''?
Please give me an answer now

"They" is a singular pronoun
OK, tell. Is couple singular or plural?
Couple is a singular noun, firstly, because ''couple'' has no gender
Secondly, because ''couple'' here is one
and so therefore the "they" referring to the anonymous, one couple, in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15 is a singular pronoun

JMAN05:
The "they" is informing you that what he said immediately above doesn't refer to one woman, but women

Why arent I surprised you're sticking to your unloaded guns

JMAN05:
His subject was role of men and women in the congregation. So, in discussing women, he used they to show that what he said above apply to all women.
Some translations worded it in a way it came clearly:

An American Translation says "but they will be saved through motherhood, if they continue to have faith..."

A New Translation of The Bible by Moffatt says "However, women will be safely through childbirth, f they continue to be faithful..."

The New Testament A Translation in the Language of the people reads: "But women will be saved through motherhood..."
So that place is referring to women as a whole. If these and the commentary doesn't convince you, then let it slide.

You have issues with parts of speech. It helps to consult ones note you know.

SMH
It really is true that theology does influence our translation

GoodMuyis:
Sir MuttleyLaff!

I have few questions for you

#1- Apart from Act 2, other people that Received Holy Ghost, what language was spoken as is "speaking in tongue" did they spoke and why did they need such language?

#2- According to you It takes considerable knowledge on ''speak in tongue & pray in tongues ''. What ARE the differences between the two?

#3- What evidence can you give to ascertain that 99.9% of ''speak in tongue '' claims are not real and give me example of an event where you have seen real one
I take a break here for coffee,
coz i know reply is going to be long

https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
Just be ready & prepared
to answer all my questions
when I start asking you too

GoodMuyis:
Good Day Fellow Nairaland brethren,
I came from a church that preach the Holy Ghost Baptism but with less emphasis on Speaking or Praying in Tongue
in fact I have never seen any preacher on pulpit doing so (can may be doing so at the secret place I dont know).
Everything I need to know about Holy Ghost Baptism is being taught
and Speaking in Tongues being the evidence of the experience

The latter part of the bolded statement is a blanket statement
made from not understanding why speaking in Tongues in Acts 19:1-5 had to happen

GoodMuyis:
Although, years before I dont so much care about the experience but I still pray for it.
But as at mid 2015 I began to thirst so much and so love to be Baptized in Holy Ghost, hence I pray for it more than ever till date.
On January 28, 2016, at the early hour of the day around 3AM I woke to pray, for someone some minute into the prayer the movement of my tongue change as if i want to miss word pronunciation i pause to continue with prayer same thing occurred i just continue saying the word coming out of my out for the next tens of seconds, but with the burden in my heart for the person am praying for I had stop so as to hit hard on my prayer point.

On the February 8, 2016, I was disturb from my sleep by an event i dont want elaborate here, during the period i cant sleep anymore so i decide to turn my sleeplessness to productive prayer, thanksgiving and for people. After the prayer i want to end it with praise, I just start singing and to add emotion to my praises I went on my kneels saying the praise of God; not up to a minute, the words change again in my mouth and i continue saying longer than the first experience on Jan 28.
Contrary to what or how many did claim to experiences speaking in tongue for the first time, that they feel the urge to do so,
I DID NOT feel anything, I DID not feel the urge to speak it just came like switching a car gear when climbing a high hilly Express.

Now my concern is the Word of my Mouth was so different to what I've from so many who Did or claim to pray in Tongues,
even if am asked I cant say any country did speak that way.
I wanted to be sure am not influenced by the sermon am listening to in which the preacher Pray or Speaks in tongue,
in fact its been a while I have listened to such sermon.
I wanted to be sure and not hiding under deception of fake Tongue.

Kindly share what your first time experience is with me [and other]
CC: vooks, analice107, CharleyG1, sonofthunder, superior1 and everybody

JeffreyJamez:
Utter BS!
Speaking in tongues according to the Bible
meant the deciples were able to speak in Different languages other than theirs
so they could preach the gospel to those people who spoke said languages.
Not this rubbish the op posted here.

Bravo!
You almost had a bullseye having a go hitting the nail on the head.
Wow, I am gobsmacked.
''this rubbish the op posted here'' is an elephant in the room

GoodMuyis:
Support your answer with Bible reference,
not assumption

⁵And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
⁶Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together,
and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
⁷And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
⁸And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
⁹Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
¹⁰Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,
and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,(i.e. both Jews and converts to Judaism)
¹¹Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
¹²And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
- Acts 2:5-12

Realise that 99.9% of ''speak in tongue'' claims are not real and set yourself free
''pray in tongues''? Pfttt

Baby tongues? SMH

Historically, there's no force yourself to ''speak in tongue''
Historically, there's no trialling ''speak in tongue''
Add insult to injury and making matters worse, there is no recorded biblical reference of any ''pray in tongues'' past event(s)

The biblical and real ''speak in tongue'' historically has always been spontaneous...

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered, the point is to discover them

It takes considerable knowledge on ''speak in tongue & pray in tongues''
just to realize the extent of ones ignorance concerning the truth about each and them two things

JMAN05:
Goodness! Oga,
"They" is not a singular pronoun. You don pass this abeg

Wetin, wetin
Ko ara e da soun. Hold on to your knickers jor.
Ki la ngbe gan, ti oun yedi?

"They" is a singular pronoun
OK, tell. Is couple singular or plural?
Couple is a singular noun
and so therefore the "they" referring to the anonymous, one couple, in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15 is a singular pronoun

JMAN05:
If you dont understand why plural pronoun was employed, let this commentary help you. It is from your scholars:

Calvin's commentary:
"1 Timothy 2:15
In consequence of the old translation having used the expression, "the birth of children," it has been commonly thought that this clause refers to the children. But the term used by Paul to denote "child-bearing" is a single word, and therefore it must refer to the women."
(from Calvin's Commentaries)

Here we go again making this personal
What have I to do with Calvin?
Rather than facing reality and recognise the truth, you're palming me off to Calvin.
What are you trying to insinuate or achieve with the ''It is from your scholars'' remark? SMH

Your ignorance is seriously cramping any worthwhile contribution I try putting out
Just put Calvin aside, if you really want to understand 1 Timothy 2:15
or know the true and proper gist behind Paul's ''she will be saved through childbearing'' remark
(i.e. the saved during the process of giving birth to children remark)

I am not keen on going into details about the ''she will be saved through childbearing'' remark
as it will not only take pages trying to explain but will also take a lot of time
I will however advise, you look up who and what Artemis of the Ephesians (i.e. Acts 19:1-37) is
Look into the alleged role she performs during child bearing
(i.e. sparing, saving and protecting women from death during childbirth)
and/or of her strong connection with childbirth in Ephesus

There always is a point that you cross
You have to move beyond a dot
2 dots at random might give you a line or pattern
3 dots joined together however will make a picture
so, my friend, why not connect dots then
You'll get the picture, bro, after simply joining the goddess, Artemis of the Ephesians, Genesis 3:16 and Genesis 4:1 dots together

JMAN05:
The logical conclusion is that Paul gave the advise, one for men and another for women. It appears you are saying the same thing.

however, i dont agree that an anonymous couple is implied in verse 11-15. The "they" refers to women as a whole.

Yes, of course, I am saying the same thing that Paul in his layered advices, switched from the use ''men'' and ''rich or privileged women'' (i.e. he used plurals) in 1 Timothy 2:8-10 to deliberately and decidedly using ''woman'', ''man'' and ''she'' (i.e. these are singulars) in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15.

You do see, accept and agree that there is a switch from plural to singular, dont you?

JMAN05:
The "they" refers to women as a whole

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,
if they continue in faith and love and holiness with sobriety.
- 1 Timothy 2:15

How is it possible you say, that ''they'' refers to women as a whole?
Your assertion that ''they'' refers to women as a whole is disjointed
because you arent just not following through the different and changing pronouns in 1 Timothy 2: 11-12,14-15.
but also not closely connecting the switches from singular to plural as they should be

''she'' (i.e. the anonymous woman in 1 Timothy 2:11-12) will be saved . . .
provided they (i.e. the anonymous man and woman couple, in 1 Timothy 2:11-12) continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (i.e. soundness of mind)

1 Timothy 2:15's ''she shall be saved'' is a singular verb, referring to one woman that she will be saved
''if they continue'', on the other hand, is a plural verb and singular pronoun/singular they,
saying if the anonymous man and woman couple of 1 Timothy 2:11-12
continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control (i.e. soundness of mind) then the woman will be saved

Why didn't Paul just use ''they'' on both ocassions, if he really was writing about/ to women as a whole? Hmm?

''she'' and “they” (i.e. the singular and plural verbs) cant both refer to women as a whole.
It'll be grammatically incorrect if it did

JMAN05:
What here do you not understand?

It's me who should have a long time ago asked you this ''What here do you not understand?'' question
Forgive me.
I continue to underestimate the depth of your ignorance on this subject matter

JMAN05:
You are contending that only Jesus is called "pastor" (noun), and that saints have pastor applied to them as a verb. This is wrong.

I will make this easier for both of us
Produce a list of saint/believers in the NT, explicitly and specifically addressed as pastor/shepherd

JMAN05:
Didnt you see that my comment is dealing with the WORD "Pastor" itself?
Or didnt you see the pastor in quotation marks?

This more the reason, why I asked you to produce where in the NT is the WORD "Pastor" itself

Its common knowledge that there is no ''pastor'' in NT,
and that's why I warned you not to interchange "Pastor" with ''shepherd''
but you still went ahead using ''shepherd'', knowing well that you will look in vain for the word ''pastor'' in NT

JMAN05:
I am faulting your claim of using the word pastor as noun for Jesus and verb for some saints. The word was never a verb for saints. And that even the word TRANSLATED pastor is never a verb. You see me bold-face "word translated" in my reply.

Yes and that's why I've been pointing out that, the word ''Pastor or pastor'' is reserved only for Jesus, as a title and especially so when used as a noun

Saints/believers when gifted with ''how to feed'' the flock (e.g. pastors and teachers)
are carrying out function as in pastoring/shepherding verb wise and not given titles
The noun and at title is for Jesus

PMSL. Surely you cant be serious refuting pastor used as noun for Jesus
and pastoring/shepherding used as verb in relation to saints/believers

If you are, then clearly, I am no match for the level of ignorance you've so far doggedly pursued and all along been displaying

The below is your 18 pitiful attempts in listing where pastor (i.e. in singular) is mentioned in NT

1/ Matthew 9:36 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - About without Jesus
2/ Matthew 25:32 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
3/ Matthew 26:31 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
4/ Mark 6:34 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of when without Jesus
5/ Mark 14:27 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

6/ Luke 2:8 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Before Jesus' birth
7/ Luke 2:15 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Leave to Jesus' birthplace
8/ Luke 2:18 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Talked of Jesus' birth
9/ Luke 2:20 Greek poimenes, English shepherds. Noun - Back from Jesus' birthplace

10/ John 10:2 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
11/ John 10:11a Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
12/ John 10:11b Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
13/ John 10:12 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
14/ John 10:14 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
15/ John 10:16 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

16/ Ephesians 4:11 Latin pastoris, English pastors/shepherds. Noun - Figuratives, feeding human souls

17/ Hebrews 13:20 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus
18/ 1 Peter 2:25 Greek poimena, English a shepherd. Noun - Talking of Jesus

The less people know of a subject matter, the more stubbornly they think they know it
Take this as an unexpected learning opportunity
See, no pastor (i.e. as in verbatim and in singular) mentioned in NT

JMAN05:
The word translated pastor is poimen, it occurred 18 times. I ve given you all the occurrences. Or you think that since KJV used "pastors" in that verse, that all translation translated "poimen" as pastors?

I dont care what KJV, all I cared about and asked you was to give me where in NT the word pastor (i.e. in singular) is used
and specifically warned you in advance not to interchange the word pastor (i.e. in singular) with the word shepherd

JMAN05:
Psalm 23 stated that Jehovah/Yahweh is my shepherd, not Jesus. Of course, the term was still applied to Jesus in John 10:11 as I gave above

https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
What else can I do here
than to just laugh this off

JMAN05:
Your analogy doesnt fit, since the bible itself applied the word shepherd (noun) to elders. (1Pet 5:1,2; Acts 20:28). Granted, Jehovah is the Supreme Shepherd, while Jesus is a shepherd of higher sort than human shepherds, but human shepherds were not called shepherd in the verbal sense as you claim. You have given no good proof for this.

I cant believe you wrote this
You must be working really hard to remain ignorant

Go over 1 Peter 5:2 and Acts 20:28 again for proof,
You'll find out that it is poimaino (i.e. verb) that's used
and not poimena, (i.e. noun) that's used concerning the elders

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, the sheep under His care.
Today, if you hear His voice:
- Psalm 95:7

And you are my sheep, human sheep of my pasture,
and I am your God, declares the Lord GOD.”
- Ezekiel 34:31

The One and Only Shepherd (i.e. the One and Only Pastor) of souls is the self-existing all-powerful authority influence known as God
I wont go further than this on God, if I do, it'll leave you squirming

JMAN05:
That Ephesians mentioned pastors/shepherds which the lord has given to the church. Since we see that elders are thus designated in other scriptures as spiritual shepherds, this part of the scripture is still referring to the elders as gift given to feed Gods sheep. No one is instructed to feed Gods sheep, only the elders.

Your scholars understand this well, only that some under the influence of satan is setting a standard different from the one Jesus himself set. May they be accursed. I repeat, may all of them be accursed for raising commandment different from the one Jesus set. In fact, they are already disregarded. (1cor 14:37, 38; gal 1:8, 9)

Vine's Expository Dictionary, although not a JW says:

poimen >, NT:4166), "a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks" (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian "pastors," Eph 4:11. "Pastors" guide as well as feed the flock, cf. Acts 20:28, which with v. 17, indicates that this was the service committed to elders (overseers or bishops) (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow,
an undeserved curse does not come to rest
- Proverbs 26:2

You're not only now making this personal
but also already gone grumpy on me
and having a fit of the sulks too

JMAN05:
The word is poimen.

I didnt ask you about the word poimen
What I explicitly and specifically asked you about was the word, pastor
and where you claimed have found this explicit and exact pastor word mentioned 18 times in the NT

My suspicion was correct that you're conflating shepherd with pastor,
and that's why I asked you:
Or are you interchanging shepherd with pastor?

JMAN05:
It appeared in Matt 9:36; 25:32; 26:31; Mark 6:34; 14:27; Luke 2:8; 2:15; 2:18; 2:20 John 10:2, 11(×2),12,14,16 Eph 4:11 heb 13:20; 1Pet 2:25

Partially exempting Eph 4:11, glaringly there is no pastor word from this your list ooo

Eph 4:11 is the closest you'll ever have in finding/seeing the word ''pastor'' in the NT
and as it happens, that word pastor in Eph 4:11 sef, isnt in singular but is in plural
(i.e. pastor with an appending ''s'')

Who is your Shepherd? Remember Psalms 23?
Well, no one else but Jesus is the Shepherd (i.e. noun)

Feeding (i.e. verb) the flock isnt a licence to be called a pastor/shepherd
That title is reserved for Jesus, the True, One and Only Shepherd

It's similar to a parent administering medicine to an unwell child isnt a licence for the parent to be called a doctor
or cooking for the family isnt a licence to be called a chef

And Christ gave some, apostles;
and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;
- Ephesians 4:11

How is the flock fed? by Ephesians 4:11's the combo of pastors and teachers
Ephesians 4:11 is gender agnostic, its no respecter of person
Now you see why and on what basis a woman is made to feed the flock

I think it'll be a low-esteemed man finding/seeing a woman teaching good, right and correct in private/public, that will want to shut up her up and/or shut her down

JMAN05:
"They", singular pronoun?
Yet you are praying I understand something as clear as it is written

¹¹Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
¹²But I suffer not a woman to teach,
nor to usurp authority over the man but to be in silence.
¹³For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
¹⁴And Adam was not deceived,
but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
¹⁵Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,
if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 2:11-15

If they (i.e. the anonymous husband & wife couple) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
How many couples are in a ''husband & wife relationship''? One isnt it?
Well, that's one example from many, of how a singular pronoun (i.e. a ''singular they'') comes to be used

JMAN05:
And what did verse 8 say? Man or men? Answer.

Bro dont you see that Paul's advices/instructions were layered?
Where, centring around verse 8, it started with general and wide advices to men,
then moving on to verses 9-10, equal and applicable advices to women in general were given
before lastly in verses 11-15, drilling down to the anonymous husband & wife couple

JMAN05:
I see no support for ur claim in those verses

The eyes are useless when the mind is blind
so I am not surprised you see no support for the obvious in those verses

JMAN05:
It is CLEARLY discussing male and female.

Of course, it is CLEARLY discussing male and female
Thank God, that, you CLEARLY, at least see it is discussing male and female.

JMAN05:
But u have right to ur beliefs

¹¹Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
¹²But I suffer not a woman to teach,
nor to usurp authority over the man but to be in silence.
¹³For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
¹⁴And Adam was not deceived,
but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
¹⁵Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,
if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 2:11-15

''I do not permit a woman to... '' is different from ''God doesnt permit a woman to...''
''Woman should not...'' is clearly different from ''woman must not...''
''Let the woman...'' is clearly different from ''Let the women...''

Who was this woman? Who was this man?

All the nouns and pronouns used, there in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, are in singulars (e.g. woman, man & she)
Also ''they'' is a singular pronoun
Evidentally, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is, Pqul addressing a localised anonymous couple (i.e. unidentified husband & wife) issue
and far from the truth, is it oe Paul proposing a global ban on learned women from teaching privately or publicly

If right now, you still don't understand this, then as we live in hope....pray, maybe one day, you will.

As a side note,
I dont know the reason why Paul seems to hold Priscilla in a higher esteem than he does her husband (e.g. 2 Acts 18:18-19, Timothy 4:19 and Romans 16:3)
He even has a pet name for Priscilla.

Back on track, but you have right to your Men's Club, where women are expected to be seen and not heard

JMAN05:
I repeat:

I can count 18 times that the word translated pastor appeared

Oya now, list them,
List them one after the other, supported with chapter, verse & Bible translation version
where you found pastor mentioned 18 times in the NT

luvmijeje:
Oga, hopefully with my few questions, your inner eyes have been opened.
If you're not man enough to admit your folly openly, hopefully you will be a man enough to admit it in your closet.

I've said it before and I'm going to say it to you.
God's is raising female ministers in this end time and no gate of hell can stop it.
No rules of men can stop it.

Any man who dares stop the moves of the Holy Spirit will be crush.

JMAN05:
Stop stop stop blaspheming by calling the holy spirit.
Do u want to perish in heresy?
Or it could be that u are under a demonic influence. That is the only

1 Cor 14:34-38

34 let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak. Rather, let them be in subjection, as the Law also says.
35 If they want to learn something, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the congregation.
36 Was it from you that the word of God originated, or did it reach only as far as you?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or is gifted with the spirit, he must acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are the Lord’s commandment.
38 But if anyone disregards this, he will be disregarded.

The account says if you are gifted with the spirit, you will acknowledge this writing.

Therefore, If any thing is reviewing something different from this, that is a demon. You are threading into a very serious path, a sin which cannot be forgiving. Pleeeaaase stop involving the holy spirit into a falsehood.
The account says that this is the Lords commandment, any one who go against it will be disregarded.
Be warned! Don't think that this is a mere nairaland discussion.

If you wish to be disregarded, ignore what the Lord says are the place of women in the congregation. Its ur call.

The Lord speaks; many, many women spread the good news
- Psalm 68:11

Nobi just now yansh don tay for back ooo. Hin tay nobi small
Hin tay long time sef before all dis end time tings,
wey God put hand inside for this business of raising godly, gifted female ministers
Priscilla sat heavyweight juggernaut Apollos down teaching him and explaining to him things he did not comprehend

Priscilla was ahead of her time
Today's women have not only come a long way
but have now also come off age
No one is GOING to deny a female to speak, especially if she's teaching good and correct

Gender is not the primary concern/issue in 1 Cor 14:34-38 or 1 Timothy 2:11-12
it was about refuting and keeping in check falsehood teaching (i.e. heresy) domineering wives were bandying about

Sarassin:
For me, neither conversation necessarily constitutes historical evidence that Jesus spoke Greek

Your denial doesnt invalidate

Sarassin:
In particular I doubt the conversation between Jesus and Pilate could have taken place, at a minimum not in the format reported in John 18. Why? Because Pilate having issued and signed the arrest warrant for Jesus in the first place would be very well aware of the reasons Jesus stood before him

On the contrary, firstly, it was the Jewish authorities (i.e. high priests and the scribes) who sent out orders that anyone who knew where Jesus was should let them know, so that they might arrest and snuff Him.

Secondly, why would Pilate send Jesus to Herod, if Pilate really did issue and sign the arrest warrant for Jesus?

But you have a custom of asking me to release one prisoner each year at Passover.
Would you like me to release this 'King of the Jews'?"
- John 18-39

Its obvious Pilate didnt want anything to do with Jesus because he saw Jesus not being a threat and innocent of charges brought against Him
As seen in John 18-39 above, also in Matthew 27:15, Mark 15:6 and Luke 23:13-24) Pilate in vain, strenuously even tried to release Jesus

Sarassin:
therefore in my view the statement in verse 35; Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?
Is entirely superfluous and out of context, it is (again in my view) entirely self-serving by the author of John

Superfluous? Are you trying hard to wind me up
The authors of Matthew, Mark and Luke, are they, allegedly, too in on the covfefe?

Sarassin:
The conversation between Jesus and the centurion is quite intriguing it is entirely possible that the gospel writers who wrote much later in the first century and at the turn of the century in diaspora when the Greek language was more widely spoken simply made assumptions that Jesus did in fact speak Greek and wrote accordingly

So you reckon, the conversation between Jesus and the centurion was spoken in a tongue other than Greek

Sarassin:
Not necessarily, historical accounts tell us that Pilate regularly sent out "crucifixion crews" to round up Jewish trouble makers and summarily execute them

Pilate tried to free Jesus,
vouched for Jesus that He wasnt a trouble maker or threat to the Romans

Sarassin:
Anyways, I'll go with Pilate's famous words "Quod scripsi, scripsi"

If going Latin, then that could only be in a Mel Gibson's film.

JMAN05:
I disagree. Anybody? How can that ever be proven?

1Pet 5:2
2 Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly"

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Verse 17 of acts 20 shows that Paul was addressing elders here. Now why were they made overseers? It says "to feed the church of God". Elders are the shepherds, elders are not composed of women.

That's what can be proven not anyone is allowed to feed

So in the absence of matured men the flock shouldnt be fed
During the absence of men, capable women shouldnt step up to the plate to feed the flock, hmm?

JMAN05:
That is not teaching

No?
So Eve didnt instruct Adam to eat take and eat the fruit then?
To whom was the authority of the garden handed to?
Who exercised their authority over Adam?
Who instructed Adam to take, have and eat the fruit?
Who taught Adam to eat the forbidden fruit?

JMAN05:
No, you reply without taken the context into consideration. The portion discussed what men should do in verse 8, and later it came and stated that women shouldn't teach falsehood over a man according to you. If we follow such interpretation, then the restriction is to men alone, not women nor the congregation. Since the context is about men and women, and what women shouldnt over men, the counsel will be limited to men. How can you expect anything less from a reasonable person?

Please, please, please, where do you read ''men''?
The context is about a singular ''man'' and not plural ''men''

JMAN05:
Paul never said or implied that Eve ever exercise authority over a Adam.
He drew a principle that establish men as being created first which should teach anyone there need for men to occupy a headship role over a woman.

1 Tim 2:13-14
13 "For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor"

PSML, yeah right. Like you've never that many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first

Anyway, no female, if teaching right & correctly is a threat to a headship role
Responsible headship's expectation is to step in and check all arising erroneous undertakings

1 Tim 2:14 is instructive, look at it very carefully.
Why wasnt Adam deceived? He already and before hand knew the right thing to do or not to do
Eve, on the other hand, was deceived after hearing the wrong thing,
transgressed the command, instructed and involved her husband to do what he was not supposed to do

JMAN05:
When you quote a post, quote the complete idea expressed.
Detaching it too often would make the writeup unnecessarily long, even the response may be meaningless.

It becomes necessary when debunking or counter responding to arrested portions of the quote

JMAN05:
Nope. Where?

NVM. Would be uncomfortable having a woman teaching good and right to a gathering
(e.g. maybe standing on podium evangelising and teaching in a market place)

JMAN05:
I don't agree with you. You seem to be giving in to popular opinion as advanced in society - women right!, women emancipation. Gods arrangemwnt is the best, it isn't unfair for xten women who were created by God for a supportive role.

PSML. Jesus was there before me
It was a woman's prompt that kick-started Jesus' public ministry

Reiterating, please go re-read John 4:4-30, pay attention to John 4:27-28, it's an eye-opener to an insight
Now do you really think that Jesus, in John 4:4-30, went to such great lengths and singled out the ''woman'' for her to internalise the impartation of knowledge she received

When Jesus' and Paul's are laid down side by side, it's not rocket science, whose example of the two needs to be followed

JMAN05:
No, I don't look down on a woman's ability to teach. Some of them can teach more than some men. But men perform specific roles in Gods arrangement that women are not told to perform. God created women to offer complementary role that are still special. But for things to go decently and by arrangement, God has assign men the role to feed the sheep. I can't see any woman in the issue about circumcision in Acts 15:3, 6. Does it mean that there were no women with experiences back then? Their were, but God didn't assign them such role.

No, it means back then was a patriarchal society

JMAN05:
Again, men are the heads of their families. Does it mean that no woman can ever manage a family, or be head of it? Never! Some women can do such work. But God has not assign that role for them. There must be a head, and God has chosen men for it and women to support them. God organises His things very well. 1cor 14:40.

If you really subscribe to the biblical notion that women are made to complement men, then are you saying God hasnt equipped women to complement men in areas of teaching/feeding the flock

JMAN05:
That they aren't called pastors as a title does not mean that the word "pastor" for some saints are not noun. "Pastor" occurs as a noun in the NT

When you cook for the family, you are cooking (i.e. you're not a cook)
Food for thought, there are 30 men and one lady survivor shipwrecked on a remote and deserted island.
Is the lady, a believer grounded in the undiluted word of God and armed with a bible permitted to preach, teach and feed the 30 non believer men?

JMAN05:
I can count 18 times that the word translated pastor appeared

Are you sure you counted 18?
18 in the new testament.?
Or are you interchanging shepherd with pastor?

Hairyrapunzel:
Since jman05 has decided to take the scriptures literally I have decided to take the scriptures literally

Floating boats is a prerogative

Hairyrapunzel:
144000 were undefiled by women and were virgins quote all verses as far as it doesn't mention 144000 its of no use

Jws say only 144000 will go to heaven amongst these are married women and married men that were in the religion prior to 1935

Bible says this 144000 are those who were undefiled by women and were virgins and also belonged to 12 tribes

After these things I saw a large crowd from every nation, tribe, people, and language. No one was able to count how many people there were.
They were standing in front of the throne and the lamb.
They were wearing white robes, holding palm branches in their hands
- Revelation 7-9

Why stop and park at Revelation 7-4, when following in hot pursuit, as seen above, is a self-explanatory Revelation 7-9

Hairyrapunzel:
The jws 144000 don't even have a tribe
Jman05 should come and justify their own doctrine as to why it is against what the Bible actually says then I will justify my own stance on having female preachers and pastors

Who's to blame, the game or the player?
A great player doesnt just stand back and play the way he's being coached.
He rises up to occasions and turn the game around on his own

Hairyrapunzel:
If jman05 has decided to take the verses literally why can't I take verses literally

Ooookay ooo

blueAgent:
Catholics to praying to dead saints is it biblical.
One of the customs of Catholics is to pray to dead Saints to intercede on their behalf in Heaven.This doctrine is based on the belief that dead Saints are alive and already in Heaven this erroneous belief is one of the biggest decits of Satan.We will take a look at this issue with the Bible as our guide.

First what is the State of the dead? are they living or do they ascend into Heaven immediately after death.

Considering the State of the dead,saints including Mary,Paul,Joseph,e.t.c while do Catholics still pray to them. It is apparent that they are praying to Idols and Demons in the name of praying to Saints.Mary,Paul,Peter,James,John,Stephen e.t.c  are all sleeping in their graves they neither eat,work, Think, or hear nor intercede in prayers on behalf of others.
This  evil doctrine has been sold to the public especially Catholics who believe that dead people go straight to Hell or Heaven immediately after death.
People go to Heaven or Hell on the Judgement day or day of resurrection not before then. Daniel12:2,John5:28-29 & 1cor15:12-14,1cor16-19.
John  5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This bible verses confirm that the dead and Saints are not in Heaven but are waiting for the resurrection for if they were already in Heaven  the bible will not be talking about a resurrection of the Saints or the dead.what will they be resurrecting from since they are already in Heaven?
To Catholics pls deciet from praying to dead Saints they cannot hear you or intercede on your behalf.Only one name has been given to us by which man can be saved and that is the name of Jesus  Acts  4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Only Jesus not any dead saint or Mary or Paul or Pope.
We are expected to pray to God only through the name of Jesus not through any dead Saints John14:13
no other person can.mediate between man and God, not Mary,Paul or angels but only Jesus Christ is our mediator 1Timothy  2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Christ and the Holy Spirit  which is the spirit of Christ can intercede on our behalf Romans 8:34,
Romans  8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.  8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Thank You.

MuttleyLaff,
Splinz, Openmine

What a delightful ruffle some feathers written post
So much agreed with and enjoyed reading it

JMAN05:
The issue is about spiritual shepherd.

Physical(s) is/are often but a shadow of something spiritual

God is no respecter of persons
Anybody is permitted to feed the flock

JMAN05:
I don't see how the reference applies

You can knee-jerk or widen the goal post as much as you like
but the below is a reminder of your exact post that I gave that response to:
A pastor is a Shepherd, and women are not reckoned as such in the bible

JMAN05:
You seem to be dividing "over" between teach and authority

No bro, I used ''over'' for both Whenever you teach, you effectively are exercising authority over another
and influencing such with instruction

When God asked Adam about the command, he was told to comply with
Adam's response, effectively was, the woman God gave him, taught and exercised authority over him, to eat from the tree whose fruit he was commanded not to eat from

JMAN05:
This isn't the right way of understanding the verse

Yes it is sire,
and the right way of understanding the verse is to get rid of any myopic attitude bordering on being misogynistic or acting sexist

JMAN05:
Secondly, if I understand you, your point is that teaching as referred to in that verse refers to teaching falsehood over a man. While it would be wrong for a woman to teach falsehood

Thank you
so if a woman isnt teaching falsehood, what is the hullabaloo all about then?
Instead for the common good to encourage it, why stifle the gift and spirit?

JMAN05:
there is no way we could understand Paul's writing to imply such

Bro, Paul's writing is easy to understand
especially when kept in the back of the mind that, context is king

JMAN05:
If that were so, the command would have been that "women shouldn't exercise authority over the congregation"

Whether a man or a congregation makes no difference
Misleading a man is bad enough, talkless misleading a gathering (i.e. congregation)

JMAN05:
Limiting the counsel to men won't be plausible

Re-read the narrative again
It's over: ''a man'' and not about/over ''men''

JMAN05:
And such counsel would have been given to men too cos it won't be directed to women as if they are the only gender capable of teaching falsehood.

Ah, there is something called ''the Law of First Occurrence''
Paul's counsel here is centred around the first time this happened.
Paul, historically, went back to the beginning
The first occurence where a woman incorrectly taught or exercised authority over a man happened in Genesis 3:6

JMAN05:
We read : 8-12

8 So I desire that in every place the men carry on prayer, lifting up loyal hands, without anger and debates.
9 Likewise, the women should adorn themselves in appropriate dress, with modesty and soundness of mind, not with styles of hair braiding and gold or pearls or very expensive clothing,
10 but in the way that is proper for women professing devotion to God, namely, through good works.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent."

Verse 8, shows the work men should perform in the congregation.
Verse 9, he says "likewise, the women should..."
That is a switch to another gender in assigning responsibility

Aye, like you always comply with literally ''lifting up holy hands'' when praying. Yeah?

JMAN05:
The advise is for a christian meeting, a church service.

Yes, that blueprint, his advices were for Ephesus and its saints

JMAN05:
It appears that some women in the first century were of the habit of challenging the authority of men during 'church service'.
No doubt that is why he said that this is what should happen without "anger and debates"

The "anger and debates" was pertaining to the men (i.e. 1 Timothy 2:8 )
and no where referenced the women (i.e. 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

JMAN05:
Such was exemplary women in the bible.
It shows that women do have some among them with good qualities.
Some of them do have teaching skills. They could give good advise.
These are not in dispute here, no

I know that when all's said and done, there always is a but
Where is the but? I am expecting your but
Did you too see the unconscious male prejudices in your remark

JMAN05:
The issue here is how a christian service should run. The men take the lead in prayer and in teaching the flock. This role is filled by the elders who act as shepherds. (1 Pet 5:2)

The issue here, is you seem to be aversed to women teaching men or a gathering of saints
and so digging in your heels hiding behind mutiple biblical verses

JMAN05:
While women can teach, the arrangement is not to say they can't,
but men reflect Gods glory and authority,
both in a xten home and in the congregation. 1 Cor 11:1, 7

There always is the famous but
and the petty legalism rationale
especially when being adhering to the letter rather than the spirit

JMAN05:
Priscilla is not said to have taught in a christian meeting

The absence of not said doesnt mean she didnt
if Priscilla were to live now, she would be teaching in a saints gathering
and teach wholesome lot more and better than most of today's male counterparts

JMAN05:
Don't understand your verb and noun pastor stuff.

Verb is a word or phrase that describes an action, condition or experience:
Noun is a word that refers to a person, place, thing

Jesus is a Pastor (e.g. noun)
Though saints pastors (e.g. verb) they arent called pastors (e.g noun)
How many times is pastor written /found in the NT?

Hairyrapunzel:
The bible specifically said those who have not been defiled by women and were virgins

I know the bible specifically said those who have not been defiled by women and were virgins

Now, the questions I'll like your honest and prompt responses from, are these:
1/ Who do think this woman is/women are?
2/ How did the woman/do the women defile the ''men''?
3a/ Are you saying the subjects mentioned in Revelation 14:4 are literal and/or physical virgins?
3b/ Are you saying the subjects mentioned in Revelation 14:4 are about males only?
(i.e. it is an exclusive males only clubs?)
4/ Are you used to the terms, the ''Moabite women'' spirit (i.e. ''Moabite women'' & the Church in Pergamum)
and the Jezebel spirit? (i.e. that woman Jezebel and the Church in Thyatira)
5/ Are you yet cognizant with how ''defiled by women'' and ''defiled by woman'' are interchangeably used in the bible?

Hairyrapunzel:
what translation of the bible do you use?

All available translations I can lay my hands on
plus large, varied and other accommodating resources used under guidance

Hairyrapunzel:
Revelation 14:3-4.
3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb

Hairyrapunzel:
So since the 144000 were undefiled by women and were virgins
So you are saying women could defile women in the bible?

Yes,
Read Revelation 2:14 and Revelation 2:20 to see the evidence

Sarassin:
Doubtful, most Greek speaking Jews were of the diaspora.
We are talking here about Jews who were condemned by Pilate in Jerusalem

Not talking of hellenized Jews nor non-greek speaking Jews who were condemned by Pilate in Jerusalem
but just about possiblity of Jesus speaking in another tongue apart from Aramaic or Hebrew
hence bringing up the convo that transpired for example between Jesus and Pilate or Jesus and the centurion

Sarassin:
No intention to distract, my point is the Romans were nothing if not consistent and Pilate was an equal opportunities hangman, Jesus was just one of a procession of Jewish men accused of brewing rebellion who came to a sticky end

Jesus played along to accomplish His purpose, destiny and/or destination

Sarassin:
I would be hugely interested in any direct evidence showing that Jesus spoke Greek

³³Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
³⁴“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
³⁵“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied.
“Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
³⁶Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.
If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
³⁷“You are a king, then!” said Pilate
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king.
In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
- John 18:33-37

⁵When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
⁶“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
⁷Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
⁸The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof.
But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
⁹For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me.
I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
¹⁰When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him,
“Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
¹¹I say to you that many will come from the east and the west,
and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
¹²But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
¹³Then Jesus said to the centurion,
“Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
- Matthew 8:5-13

There you have two convos,
first is between Jesus and Pilate,
the second is between Jesus and the centurion

Sarassin:
but Pilate did not require the services of a translator in order to hang a Jew

Would have needed a translator if it were non-greek speaking Jews

Sarassin:
hehehehe ...Hardly!

Why not?
C'mon. Is it because the filthy lucre is not tempting enough?
I was only pulling your leg
Couldn't resist the gentle tease though

Hairyrapunzel:
Jman05 according to jws only 144000 men and women inclusive will go to heaven but the bible specifically says in revelation that this 144000 are those who had not being defiled by women and were virgins

Had not being corrupted or defiled by the world
and not, had not being defiled by women

Hairyrapunzel:
So how do you explain women being among the 144000 when the bible clearly states that it is only Virgin men?

The bible doesnt states whether they are all males, all female or male and female
so I wonder how about this claim that the bible clearly states that it is only ''virgin'' men

Hairyrapunzel:
If women can be among the 144000 going to heaven according to your teaching then why do you think women can't preach in churches or be pastors?

JMAN05:
Why should men be head of women at home when the same women will rule with them in heaven?

Not following you on this
Care to elaborate what you're trying to get at with this?

JMAN05:
Gods arrangement is that women not exercise authority over a man

Gods arrangement is that women not INCORRECTLY exercise authority over a man
or INCORRECTLY teach in the congregation.

Do you accept that Zipporah CLEARLY & CORRECTLY exercised authority over a man called Moses?

JMAN05:
or teach in the congregation

²⁷Just then his disciples came back.
They were shocked to find him talking to a woman,
but none of them had the nerve to ask, "What do you want with her?"
or "Why are you talking to her?"
²⁸Then the woman left her water jar, went back into the town, and said to the men
- John 4:27-28

Bro please go to re-read John 4:4-30, that John 4:27-28 above is just an eye-opener to an insight
Now do you really think that Jesus, in John 4:4-30, went to such great lengths and singled out the ''woman'' for her to internalise the impartation of knowledge she received