₦airaland Forum

manmustwac:
[size=14pt] A Frethinker is someone who forms opinions about religion on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief[/size]

is it possible for ones thought to be independent of certain elements of bias?
is it possible for a thought to be completely independent of external factors. . .no matter how minimal?

why should i pray for nigeria?

KunleOshob:
This concept of belief in the bible is faulty and not necessarily "christian" i think what is more important is belief in the gospel of our lord Jesus christ and obeying his commandments. that is what makes us christians and not belief in the bible which contains so many things that is not in tune with the gospel of christ[especially in the old testament]. The jewish religion and practises which forms most part of the old testament is quite different from the teachings of christ. As christians i believe we should focus more on the gospel of christ than the bible as a whole which is just a collection of books cannonized by religious leaders in their opinion. I am not discounting the bible here but it would help if christians get the focus of their beliefs right. The bible is just a tool to help us develop our faith it is not meant to be what we believe in.

you should not ignore the fact that the gospel of Christ can ONLY be expunged from the bible. it takes an imminent understanding of the bible to gasp the gospel of the kingdom.

if thats u on ur profile. . .then yes.

yes and its lovely. . , its actually better than ninja looking hijab that women wear to mosques.

at least one can breathe in a sutana

[quote author=D-fearless link=topic=350517.msg4939762#msg4939762 date=1258416414]Aloy~Emeka & noetic15 learn 2 spell Allah in Capital Letter cos He's supremacy & not ordinary being lyk me & U. May He increase us in knowledge & guide us 2 d ryt path.[/quote]would u spell spell sango with capital S? if not, why not?

olabowale:
@Noetic: #36 on: Today at 01:16:59 AM » I am wondering if you think you are dealing with children whom you can make to swallow any line(s) of lies? Imagine Jesus crying and carrying on through the prayer periods, whih included day and night and extend beyond the garden, and you are telling us without any quiverness in your voice that all of the is for the "believers?" Wow, what a superior strength displayed therefore we see of the child of slaughter from the loin of Ibrahim (AS)! A little boy if we take Isaac and keep boss woman Sarah away from the scene (how, am sure its impossible, since she was able to force God to force Abraham to send his frst child and his mother into the wilderness, without any further care), and a teenager at most if we take Ismail even with his mother, we can see that if Ibrahim were to make his choice, Sarah will settle on the teenager for slaughter, was able to not cry when the father led him to the slaughter spot.

But Jesus who was coached and made to come on earth for this singular purpose (coaching God and making come on earth, yet still couldnt do it without coming apart at the seams) did not stop displaying his not willing to die, right up to the time he yelled out on the cross, "my God, my God (the truth finally came out, while you are deceiving me saying it is father; haa) why has thou forsaken me", show that he is no God and not willing to die. The chairman of a company cant talk to another Chairman in a manner to indicate that he is below the Chairman he is talking to and if this happens and somebody say that he is still a Chairman is a gullible soul.

All of the above are pure ignoble semantics. ur concerns have been repeatedly addressed.

Abuzola:
Na2day and noetic- you guys are bloody dunce, what is God's will '. So if he decide the cup not to pass away it is not his will ? Awesome dude

u always crack me up with ur

uplawal:
so noetic is a cele man,shio

no be u give me sutana . . . . I laugh in arabic

I was also afraid until i remembered that all muslims are actually going to hell according to allah

Joagbaje:
The problem with CELESTIAL CHURCH started with OSCHOFFA the late founder. He allowed ungodly practices which became foundations and are now hard to change. especially after his death .I believe he was called of God, most Pentecostals may not agree with me, but hear me out.
In the days of the emergence of Cele, Africa was a dark continent and a den of idolatry practices . God needed a counter power. He began to call ordinary men. Farmers ,carpenters etc. Oschoffa was called in a spectacular way, with proof and mighty signs , He raised dead to life, Healed the sick. That was the best God could get from Africa .Many people were converted from idolatry to the church or to “Christ” but people soon began to desire physical things to put their faith on. So the church allowed “parallel truths” replica of truth and idolatry. Candle and eggs to replace animal sacrifice, incense and all to replace ritualistic worship, water cleansing to replace ritualistic bath. palm front crosses to replace chrm and armulet. Rules and laws like "touch not taste not." These were comfortable for the people of those days considering their background it wasn’t uncommon. The church began to build on suggestions, “inspiration, revelation and prophesy, There was a time of hope in the 60s when they used to have some bible classes, you must have your class card to be anointed , but all that stopped.
Whenever truth is rejected ,men go after false value, like Aaron building “golden calf” in the days of Moses, Roman catholism too was born by the introduction of roman idols, and chaplets into the church,
The word of God is our guide and judge. A man of God has to study the gospel to be sound. Miracles cant teach you the bible. Even prophecies are to be judged by the word, not by feeling or experience.

The above is pure lies and fantasies. . . , otherwise what is the basis of ur assertions?. . the source of ur misinformation?

olabowale:
@Noetic:« #28 on: Today at 12:05:09 AM » Is that his will or the Will of God, since we heard him praying to God that He should let the cup pass off his head? What I see here is that it is true that it is the Will of God that was done, and not the will of Jesus, who begged, prayed, cried, wept to no acceptance of his request?

this has more to do with deductions from the prayer of Jesus, . . .the issue of His divinity has been addressed several times already.
Jesus foretold his death in previous chapters and rebuked peter for wishing that he (Jesus) does not die. So Jesus was comfortable with dying.

His prayer in the garden is simply an illustration to believers to always submit to the will of the father.
This is not rocket science why are u struggling to understand this simple fact?

you are now officially the chief CLOWN of nairaland

[quote author=na2day? link=topic=350517.msg4927230#msg4927230 date=1258240281]the dude it the biggest illiterate i have had the displeasure of coming across in life, ever ! if i were his father, i will disown him asap![/quote] I am sure abuzola's father is proud of his illiterate son

Abuzola:
Luke 22;42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."



Jesu regreted at last

mathew 27;46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

illiteracy is a disease.

He asked that God's will be done. . . .was that not what happened?

posakosa:
<missed you>

missed u too

olabowale:
@Noetics: « #4 on: Yesterday at 09:10:05 AM » Is it impossible that Yahweh or Jehovah neer answer a single prayer by anyone; Jewish or Christian religion person? Even the person you call God? I remember that God did not answer the prayers of Jesus made seeking help against being persecuted which ended by him being nailed on the wood!

what prayer of Jesus did God refuse to answer?

i wish her a speedy recovery. death or terminal illness is not a good experience for anyone.

does allah answer any prayers?

Abuzola:
@noetic- Are you now telling me that this is yet another contradiction in the bible ? Can't wait to compile it and publish it

what do u understand by the word "contradiction" ?

Abuzola:
Compiled by Abuzola






is a bastard to be blame that he was born into the world by his shameless parents ?

Jehovah did not want to know who born the bastard, he has vowed to torment the bastard instead of the parents, this is unfair, jehovah forbade the generation or descendant of the bastard heaven. i was shocked and almost burst into tears when i came across this verse, this means a bastard has no hope, poor bastard,


'No bastard shall enter the assembly of the Lord, even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants shall enter into the assembly of the Lord' Deuteronomy 23:2

David was a bastard.

Not only did Jehovah make David king, He (David) also ate the holiest of breads in the sacred chamber of the temple. So the bastard David did the holiest things any priest would do and he also became king. Jehovah is merciful.

toneyb:
Do you care to tell us why they are recycled rubbish?

cos over and over again ur fallacies and fals assumptions have been rebuffed. ur ignorance has also been repeatedly educated. one wonders why u have to recycle these baseless claims all over again.


on a side note: how have u been? its been a while. . .I missed ur wahala

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=349560.msg4891302#msg4891302 date=1257794635]I have a religion. . .my communication with my creator using the many encounters of my daily life as the temple of truth.

Every person I come in contact with is a mediary of exchange. In that exchange I'm sharing what is beautiful and noble in the depth of my soul, per chance the other person would respond with a more beautiful and radiantly divine blossom.

Anything else outside of that is hatred camouflaged as religion and falsely claimed as the voice of God.[/quote]I think u should start by defining the "god/God" u worship?

toneyb:
Davidylan believes in stories, fairy tales and myths that are FALSE, stories he has absolute no evidence for(Lies and myths), Stories like talking donkeys, talking snakes, stars fighting along side humans, sun that revoles round the earth, mythical global flood, a man living inside a fish for 3 days, clouds that have pillars etc but still calls others deluded, I can not help but laugh with scorn at his pathetic delusion.

same old recycled rubbish

why do we keep hearing of these prophecies after the events. . . why not before the events?  

KAG is back from exile. . , . . , after absconding from answering posers on evolution

1. The man was astounded. “Worship me. . .?” he muttered, his brows furrowed in deep confusion. . . “But I told them to worship only God. . . I told them not to call me good. . . I told them only God is good. . .[Mark 10:18].

2. Silent, Gabriel regarded the scene below. The worship of the sons of men drifted upwards in various brightly coloured threads and coiled around the spirit of Jesus of Nazereth, holding  him fast in limbo, as his delicate soul was not made for worship. . .

3. The man shook his head and tried to clear his memory.
“I told them” he insisted. “I said it several times. I told them through Paul that there is only one God, and that I was only a mediator [1Timothy 2:5].

4. I told them the Father is much greater than I am [John 14:28].

5. I told them not to hold on to me, because I too have a God, I told them clearly that I worship God, and that I would ascend to my GOD [John 20:17].

6. I told them to know God only, and that God merely sent me [John 17:3].

7. Why on earth would they call me God, when I said all these things!??”

8. Restless, but immovable, he continued his thoughts – “Did I not tell tem clearly that I do not know all things, and that only the Father knows all things [Mark 13:32]?

9. Did Cephas not write that I have a God and Father who I worship [1st Peter 1:3].

10. Did Luke not tell them that I was only a mere man accredited by God [Acts 2:22]

Gabriel remained silent by his side. He seemed helpless and dejected. “They also hold on to your death as their salvation.” He whispered mournfully.

11. “I can’t believe this” the man said. “Did they not record that I prayed to God to avert the cross? Surely they know my prayers in Gethsemane” [Luke 22:42]

“It seems they misunderstood everything” Gabriel offered.

12. “But how could they?” The man was still perplexed. They heard me complain about their plans to kill me simply because of the words God sent me to give them [John 8:40].

13. They heard me ask on the stake that God forgive their act of Killing me [Luke 23.34].

14. They heard me tell the parable of the Vineyard also. That parable should have made it clear!” [Mathew 21: 33-46].

1. To gasp the messages of Christ in the verses above one must identify the pattern of His choice of MESSAGE/WORDS and AUDIENCE.
My point is that, Christ made certain pronouncements to the general populace, often in parables or few words with more meaning. He however simplified or gave the naked TRUTH to his choice disciples. It is important to understand this simple fact before analysing each of the verses above.
Instances that support this assertion are
a. in luke 9:18-2* Jesus asked his disciples "who the people say he is". The point is that Jesus knew the people had a different opinion of Him, but He never corrected their opinion nor revealed His true identity to them. It was peter who gave the identity of Jesus that was subsequently established/confirmed by Jesus Himself.

b. in mathew 13:3-33 Jesus told parables to the people. . . . it was not until verse 36, when all the multitude had left and his disciples asked Him that He then gave explicit meaning of the parables.

From A and B above, one can deduce that Jesus spoke in parables to the multitude (they formed a meaning from this parables). The meaning formed from these teachings is NOT the naked truth in comparison to the analysis proffered by Jesus exclusively to His disciples.

now looking at your verses.

1. Mark 10:18
In the above verse Christ was addressing a random member of the multitude who came to ask a question. I say this because in mark 8:27-30 Jesus addressed another audience. This time the audience was the chosen few, who were privileged to be His disciples. He revealed His true identity to them here. The only time Jesus ever publicly revealed His true identity to a multitude, He was almost stoned to death John 8:58.
So when Jesus said in the above verse that only God is Good. . . . I believe that from my primordial post where I defined who God is. . . . .u now know who the God, Jesus was refering to is.

2. 1 timothy 2:5
your assertion with regards to this verse is best described as ignorance (no pun intended).
let us read what was said in verse 3 of the same chapter "For this good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour"
Paul calls God our saviour . . . . . . . Jesus died on the cross and resurrected,  . , He is as such the basis of SALVATION, He is the SAVIOUR.
So when Paul talks of a God, who offers salvation. . .he is refering to the saviour. . . .we all know who that is.

in analysing verse 5. . . Jesus is called a mediator. This is interesting.
I will use the holy spirit analogy in my primordial post to describe Jesus. remember I said that the holy spirit is the manifestation of God's power as evidenced at the point of creation and in the affairs of men. the holy spirit is not a person or spirit neither is he a being. . . . but is the direct manifestation of God's power and influence.
So when a person has the gifts of the spirit or manifests the fruits of the spirit, he is simply manifesting the God-like nature of a spirit filled God. God is a spirit and the Holy spirit is a manifestation of His power. The same applies to Jesus. If u read the bible, all of the ontological attributes of God belong to Jesus, this simply implies that Jesus is simply the physical manifestation of God, just like the holy spirit is the manifestation of God's power. . that explicably illustrates the divinity of Jesus. The bible attests to this in Acts 4:12. . . .refering to a salvation bearing name and 1 timothy2:3 calls the bearer of that salvation name GOD.

3. John 14:28

This verse has been cited by several people to assert that Jesus is not God or that He is inferior to God. My response has usually been that "Is God definite to be absent from heaven when present on earth" ?,  . . . ,

. .  . . . .more analysis to follow brb

contd . . . . .

5. The bible states clearly in John 1:3 that Jesus is the creator.

6. The prophetic word that preceded the birth of Jesus calls Him the mighty God (isaiah 9:6)

it is in lieu of these that I will address ur verses.

Deep Sight:
Thanks Noetic, i am still listening, but please do take some time out to address the verses i pointed out. Note that contrary to what you said, they are not "just one or two"  verses but more than 12! When we have that many clear references within scripture to Jesus not being God, then surely there is an issue to be discussed that goes beyond "twisting" the scripture, which David has accused me of.

Still listening. . .

I will also address your points. . .

Cheers.

I will address ur verses. . . , my previous post is an attempt to lay a foundation for my points. . , this is what my next post will also be aimed at. it is in my subsequent post that i will address ur verses.

David response is well appreciated for its audacity. . . I would like to approach the debate from another point of view.

1. we need to have an appreciative understanding of the subject matter. the subject here is God. our understanding of God is simply distinct and for the sake of clarity I would like to define God for the purpose of this thread.
Who is God? God is
a. the maker of heaven and earth as recorded in the bible.
b. the God of the patriarchs . . . .Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
c. The one whom the prophets including Jeremiah, Isaiah, David, Nehimiah, Moses et all worshipped.
d. The one who appeared to moses in the burning bush, gave israelites a great deliverance and led them to the promised land.
e. The one who gave 613 commandments to the children of Israel through moses
f. The I am that I am, Ancient of Days, Rose of Sharon, Prince of peace, Rock of Ages, Lion of the tribe of Judea, Ressurection and Life, covenant keeping God, Light of the world, King of Kings, first and last, alpha and omega, first born of the dead, the way truth and life . . . . . . .
g.  The inspiration behind the gospel.


Given the above definitions. ,   is Jesus God. . . . .YES . . . . why? how?

understanding the ontological divinity of Jesus requires more than the alienation or extraction of a bible verse to suit a preconceived dogma. It involves the contextual impart and relevance of the message that describes the ontology of Jesus. My point is, u CANNOT single out one or two verses and then attempt to use them as a literal basis for supporting ur position. The divinity of Jesus is best viewed from the contextual point of view i.e examining the direct and indirect implications of the pronouncements of Jesus.
To illustrate the ontological divinity of God that supports His God ship, I will proffer analysis emphasising the nature of the Holy Spirit and subsequently Jesus and also the import of the OT.

1. The bible (Genesis 1) talks about Elohim making the heaven and earth. Elohim signifies plurality, indicating the presence of more than one being at the point of creation.
The bible starts by stating in its first verse that "in the beginning, ELOHIM created heaven and earth". The bible does not tell us how heaven was created, but I can deduce from this verse that both the heavens and the earth were created at a point in time called the "beginning". This implies that heaven did NOT precede the earth.
The implication of this verse is that there were beings (as described in human language) at the point of creation. This is because Elohim is a plural word. Since the heaven was not created at that point, who were the beings that were present at the point of creation? the bible answers this question itself.
In verse 2 the bible states that "the spirit of God was moving over the formless nature of the earth". who is the spirit of God? is He a person? or a being? . .  . The bible also provides answers. in john 1:12 . . . The bible calls this spirit the power of God given to believers at the point of salvation. The bible also calls those that are led by this spirit the sons of God (romans 8:14).
The implication of the above verses is that at the point of creation, one of the beings present called the holy spirit was not a person or a being but the POWER of God, The holy spirit is simply the POWER of God. what then is God without His power? what makes God, God without His power?
The bible proceeds further at the point of making man. . . .there was a conversation between the plural "beings" present . ,   . .one told the others to let us make man in our own image, the bible does not record any response from the others.

My submission on this events in Genesis one is that Jesus was part of the beings present, but just as we understand that the holy spirit (who was also present ) is not a being, person or figure but the power of God. . .this thread intends to unravel the personality of Jesus.
bear in mind that Jesus boldly asserts that He precedes the point in time called "beginning" (rev 22:13)

2. In john 8:58 Jesus said that "before Abraham was, I am". This statement is subject to several interpretations, but the reaction of the listeners is NOT subject to several interpretations. They picked up stones to stone Him to death. They accused Him of blasphemy.
The implication of this verse is that Jesus BOLDLY asserted to whoever cared to listen that He was/is GOD.

3. From two above one can state that Jesus appeared to the moses in the burning bush and was the one who confidently asserted that He was I AM that I AM.
in 1 corinthians 10:1-12 The bible offers cogent analysis into the ontological divinity of Jesus. the following are deductible from 1 corth 10:1-12
a.  Jesus followed the israelites from Egypt to the promised land (verse 4)
b. Jesus was the rock that was struck by moses which produced water (verse 4)
c. when the children of israel mumurred against God and tempted Him. . . . they were tempting Jesus (verse 9)

4. In john 3:13 implies that unlike any primordial being (including prophets) no man had gone into/outside heaven except for Himself who descended from it.

The implication of the above (3 and 4) is that Jesus preceded the earth, the patriarchs, prophets and all those we know of. it also implies that Jesus preceded the heavens and the earth (rev 22:13).

. . . . .brb

David will address ur concerns as soon as he can.

Deep Sight:
Abi o, giant contradictions that David will not accept. . . but a comprehensive reading shows emphatically that the bible does not teach that Jesus is God.

what contradictions?
u single out verses and then attempt to reconcile them with ur dogmatic and unChrist-like beliefs/opinions. , . .subsequently contradicting the intents of the bible message.
If there is any attempt at contradiction, thats what ur position on this thread represents. Its however not surprising that David has once again EXPOSED ur IGNORANCE.
I hope this thread educates ur dogmas and ignorance.

@ uplawal

Where is the original manuscript? Another lie from allah and his slaves?