₦airaland Forum

KunleOshob:
My brother, i am not a dogmatic christian the truth is that there are perceived contradictions in the scripture that is supposed to be "inerrant" as a seeker of the truth i would like to keep an open mind and not just stick to any particular belief becos it is the generally accepted belief. i am a berean christian as such i seek to verify all truths. Forums like this are a good opportunity to learn diverse opinions on topics and as such form an informed opinion. However the way my mind is working given the perceived contradictions is either of two things:
[1] Translation errors
[2] Deliberate stretching of the truth by biblical authors due to their over zealousness in the preaching of the gospel. This stretching of the truth constantly happens in our churches today for various reasons.

Let me personalise it.

A. Do u (kunle) believe that Jesus died and rose?
B. Do u (kunle) believe that (A) is the basis and centre of Jesus mission on earth?
C. Do u (kunle) believe that without believing in event (A), one can make heaven?
D. Do u (kunle) believe in the salvation of Jesus?

Deep Sight:
I will give you $1 Million of my own money if you can point out a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself stated that he was God.

open a new thread. . . . I will gladly educate u there.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=339878.msg4762939#msg4762939 date=1255966692]My view is that the  personal recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God is the highest recognition that can be granted to a human spirit. Such a recognition does not come about by hearing or reading about Jesus although hearing or reading about it can serve as spiritual trigger enabling such a blessed one on a journey that will culminate in the recognition of Jesus as the son of God. Genuine love does not just came from anywhere rather genuine love is one of the emanations or rather radiations coming form Jesus, who in my own recognition is the living personification of Divine Love. This love which comes from Jesus is available to all human beings and all creatures who have the yearning for the Truth. Thus the spiritual desire to recognise the Truth and serve God automatically opens ones spirit to the vibrations of love coming from Jesus. As a human being keep absorbing and using this love, he is getting closer and closer to the source of this Love (Jesus) until finally either here on earth or hereafter after in worlds beyound, the personal recognition of HIM (Jesus Christ) in whose love he or she has been experiencing will come to such a one. For one who has absorbed the emanations of genuine Love from Jesus, love for God, his fellow mwn and all creatures is then his nature. Thus such a one practices genuine love withouth effort for the incomprehesible power of love that emanates from Jesus carries him onward just like a swimmer that swims in sync with the ocean current. If you tune into the frequency of genuine love, you are tuned in to Jesus even if at the initial and intermediate stages of spiritual development, such a one may only be aware of the love that he is experiencing but not the source of the love. If he stay tuned without switching off, he or she will one day come to the recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God. No man will ever enter heaven without this recognition. Imagine that the recognition of Jesus Christ is at the summit of a mountain. Individuals who have more or less absorbed the love of God but have not come to the personal recognition of this source of genuine love have left the bottom of the mountain and are on their way to the top of the mountain and will finally reach the summit if they keep absorbing and using the power of God. At the summit, they will find the crown of their longing, the recognition of Jesus Christ as the son of God.

Meanwhile, there is a tree at the foot of the mountain and many instead of climbing the mountain decided to climp the tree and from the top of the tree, they smile at those who slowly but surely are climbing the mountain. They claim that from the top of the tree that they have a glimpse of the summit of the mountain. But unkonwn to them, the crown at the top of the mountain can only be bestowed on those who climbed the mountain and not to millions who want a short cut by climbing the tree. The gulf betwwen the tree and the mountain cannot be crossed and those who made attempt fall to the ground breaking their legs and even there neck. As he groans in agony from the fall, some people who he  laughed at when he was on top of the tree have already reached the mountain and have been bestowed with the crown.

If Mahatma Ghandi or Dala Lama or any person form any culture, religion or tradition are practicing genuine love, they are like those who are climbing the mountain and their  souls will one day recognise Jesus Christ as the son of God. Millions who have heard or read about Jesus but are not living according to the love that emanates from Jesus Christ are the people on top of the tree at the foot of the mountain. There is still time for them to come down from their precarious perch to the foot of the mountain and begin to climb the mountain. Very soon the tree at the foot of the mountain will collapse and they will break their legs and necks making a subsequent climbing of the mountain impossible. Thus the crown which they erroneously imagined that it is their birth right will be denied them.


Thus there can be no genuine love without Jesus Christ and no Jesus Christ without genuine love. The spiritual journey of all human beings does not just consit of one earthlife. This  present earthlife is just a very small snapshort of ones spiritual history. I hope that someday, some of the discussants may be blessed with the opportunity to see the soul  of Mahatma Ghandi and they should ask him who Jesus is. The answer will come as a rude shock.[/quote]1. The above might sound reasonable but it CANNOT be reconciled with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The sonship of Jesus (if believed by anyone) should be held side by side with His salvation on the cross. They CANNOT be separated.

2. I understand from your post on other threads that u have continued to mistake the xtian love for the common love as seen in other religion and the world outside Christ. The love that Christ preached is centred around God. The God subject in this case is pertinent to the divinity of Jesus. The core message of Jesus is the death on the cross, salvation, sonship, resurrection and promise of eternity.
The deduction is this. . . . .
a. Jesus stated clearly that the love of God and one's neighbour are the greatest commandment. The love of God is simply having no other god/deity before/beside God.
b. Jesus also asserted that He is God. He came to offer His salvation from eternal damnation on the cross of calvary.
c. Jesus also stated that those who believe in him/his message are saved from eternal damnation.
d. Those who accept the Lordship and salvation of Jesus are led by the spirit to live the God-like life of LOVE.

Now let us put the above in the same light as your analyses:
# The genuine love like u stated is completely different from the love Jesus taught. The love of Christ is centred around Christ. It involves accepting the salvation of Jesus Christ, being led by his spirit and living his life of love.
# To claim to love God. . .without recognising Jesus as that God. . .is as good as loving a false god like allah.
# Ghandi or anyone CANNOT claim to love God without knowing God.

# many (pastor AIO, kunleOshob and Deepsight) have assumed that Christ's gospel was simply a gospel of love outside of the WORSHIP of God. This is FALSE.
I will assert this using the "Good samaritan parable" of Jesus found in Luke 10: 30-37

In that parable 3 men saw a wounded man on the road. one was a priest, the other a levite and the third a samaritan.  
why did the priest and levite not stop? did they move on out of hate or lack of compassion? was their "inaction" a sin to God?

FYI: The priest and levite did NOT stop simply because by offering help to the wounded man. . they would have touched blood. by touching blood, the priest and levite would become unclean. by becoming unclean they would both be excommunicated and unable to perform their functions in the synagouge. If the priest ever enters the holiest of the holiest after helping the wounded man. . .he would have died and be brought out dead.
So why did they both not stop?. . . . . they both did not stop simply because they wanted to be holy, they wanted to please God.

If u read verse 27: Jesus was clear. . . that the very first thing is to LOVE God before loving your neighbour. u CANNOT love buddha or allah and then love your neighbour. that love is UNACCEPTABLE to God (Jesus).
Submissively . . . . .the route to the acceptance of anyone's sacrifice of LOVE is the acknowledgement of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

KunleOshob:
I am quite aware of the above passage and i never discounted it, what i was just trying to make Noetic see were other scriptures that said something that seemed contrary and i asked him to explain it if he truly understood what he believed in, up till now he has not been able to offer any explaination. He has chosen to remain in the dogmatic box his church has put him in instead of exploring other biblical truths on the issue. I don't claim to know it all, so i am open to knowledge, but i am not open to accept something just becos that is the aspect of the bible my pastor would rather preach to me when i see cntradicting evidence i would insist on clarification.

This thread is strictly about ur beliefs. my beliefs have been questioned and I have answered them here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-336988.0.html
You had repeatedly antagonised my belief, thereby raising the assumption that u disagree with me, but u have not been courageous enough to come up with ur beliefs.
I would ask u one last time. . . . . . Do u think that those who do not accept the salvation of Jesus as depicted on the cross of calvary would make it to heaven? YES or NO . , and state ur reasons.

KunleOshob:
@Noetic
if i do re-call i have not made any categorical statement on that submission as i do not claim to know it all and i am still learning, however what i did was to show you biblical evidence [ which you are yet to refute or explain] that suggests other wise. I would suggestyou go and answer the question posed to you on the previous thread instead of running away and now trying to put us on the spot. you should justify your assertions before askng me to 'prove' my objections to it. I haven't made personal statements yet, just biblical submissions and as you claim to believe in the in errancy of the bible then you must accept the submissions or throw better light on it if it was being quoted out of context or there is another understanding which we are missing in the scriptures quoted.

KunleOshob:
Better still it would be better you start this thread with quoting the basis for your beliefs from scripture so we can annalyze it together and contrast it with other scriptures that seem to be saying something different from what you believe.

my beliefs has been called to question and I have proffered explanation on several occasions to analyze my beliefs. whether u subscribe to them is irrelevant.

This thread calls to question the basis of ur beliefs. so tell us. . .how does one get to heaven? . . . do u have to believe in the death and resurrection/salvation of Jesus? or does one just have to be a good guy who loves his neighbor to get to heaven? what biblical injunction supports this assertion? what exactly is the purpose of the death of Jesus?

There has been several unsuccessful attempts by atheists, deists and "Christians" to assert that those who dont acknowledge the salvation of Jesus Christ as evidenced on the cross, will still make it to Jesus heaven. . . . . if they are good/full of love.

They also claimed that this is deducible from the teachings of Jesus Himself,  . . . I am yet to be convinced. that explains why I have encouraged them to open a new thread to educate our collective ignorance.

This thread now invites: kunleOshob, PastorAIO and DeepSight. .  . . .to tell us how it is possible to disbelieve/reject the salvation of Jesus and still make it to Jesus heaven.

ruhu:
@noetic
The word "spirit"in the bible is synonymous with d word "prophet".This is a prove of that in 1 John 4:1-3:"Dear friends,do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,because many false prophets have gone out into the world.This is how you can recognise the spirit of God:Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God,this is the spirit of the antichrist,which you have heard is coming and even now is coming into the world."
So noetic, i think it should be clear 2 u now how Muhammad was prophesized in the bible.See also John 14:16,John 14:26,John 16:7-14.If u want more explanations, ask.

what is this? an islamic clown attempting to mis-interpret the bible.
No my dear. A spirit is a spirit and a prophet is a prophet. Mohammed is a FRAUD and was not prophesied in the bible. GBAM!!!

lots of love and kisses where have u been?

doctor

lots of kisses

senator

@ OP

by avoiding dangote cement when building

olabowale:
@Tpia; Thats also enough. Avoid confrontations. The heart of humans, only God knows it. Am sure neither of them will insult a woman when she is standing face to face with them. They say in america, (earthly) hell has no fury like a woman scorned (angry)! Lets bygone, be bygone.

@Noetic: Thanks, but I never considered myself as being insulted by you. Otherwise I will avoid you like a plague. Yet those I avoid now, I do not consider as people who insulted me, because I do not hold any grudge, against anyone. Life is too short, so pass the jaw breakers!

Thanks I really appreciate.

olabowale:
@Playboy: As a yoruba man, I am personally disappointed offended when a non yoruba man calls a yoruba woman: Prostitute! Unless you are a yoruba man, then it is as if you have insulted all yoruba women and my mother is yoruba, so it becomes a thing in my own eye an insult on the like of my mother!

As a son of a woman, I am personally offended that you insulted a woman, calling her a prostitute! You have no right to say that and unless you can proof that you she is for hire by any and all, you must desist in calling her such a name, especially when you have women in your life!

As a muslim, I am offened that you insult a womb, especially when you came out of one! Is this what life is in Abuja; insulting women, with words of false accusation? Even a man who finds a woman easy for him cant label her as easy or prostitute, because she may not be easy for other men!

It is very shameful to lie against anyone with such impunity! You must stop calling her such a horrible name; if any of her male folks were to stand in front of you, and you call her that, you will only end up regretting such a blasphamy; would you like it anyone say that to the women in your life? Think about this and I thought the foolishness of past generation was left behind by the latest generation of people!

dont act like a saint. u have been rebuked repeatedly for insulting ladies on this forum?

P.S I hope u have accepeted my opening apology?

Krayola:
Noetic your post makes no sense.

Are you aware that most of these illiterate early Christians became Christians because some Theodosius dude decided to make it the official religion of some empire. And that all it took to become a Christian was to say a creed and be baptized, and to refuse was to suffer, burn, be incarcerated, die. . ? You think the "spirit" convinced these people about the contents of some book they never read, while some guy was waiting to light their asses on fire should they refuse?

Just admit u don't have all the answers. Maybe God does, but your attempts aren't doing him much justice.,

did all ancient xtians accpet Christianity by force? . . . . .did any of them accept it willingly like millions do today?. . , , ,

Pastor AIO:
I perceive an inability to read or write as an inability to read or write. You do realise, I hope, that the greater part of humanity for the greater part of history has been illiterate, and that the majority of christians in the first few centuries were illiterate. Heck even up until 150 or so years ago in europe. oh . . . oh . . oh . . okay, I get it. You don't think that all those poor slaves that were martyred were real christians. Not real christians with a hotline directly to God such as yourself, Noetic. I understand now.

What is an analyses? I would think that once you start analysing a text then you are no longer presenting the text 'as they are'.

Now let me give you an example of twisting and redefining terms to suit your agenda.

Compare what you said above to the dictionary definitions of a pastor.
Pastor means shepherd, someone who is in charge of the wellbeing of a flock (of sheep, but in a christian sense of people). Not just spiritual well being but in all their affairs. A Pastor feeds people. nurtures them. A pastor is not necessarily a preacher ( as you insist) but people can be pastored in different capacities. However I'm sure that you will not acknowledge that because it will not allow you to press your agenda. Now, is that not a fine example of hypocrisy.

1. If an illiterate can make a rational decision to accept Jesus as his/her personal Lord and Saviour . . , .then he/she can decipher the truth. The holy spirit has that responsibility of helping such. And like u pointed out, the large chunk of humanity have been uneducated and have as such not had to read or write but have well ended up being christians. Deducibly one can state that formal reading or writing (literacy) has no place in knowing the truthof the gospel. Some get to know the truth by personal encounters, life experiences, dreams and revelations. To discard or accept these truths is at the discretion of the recipient. So back to my point. . . . , .deciphering the truth remains at the discretion of each individual.

2. ur definition of a pastor is really interesting. why did u not tell us what a shepherd leads the flock to do?
All I did was to define a pastor within the larger christian context. . . .is there any part of my definition that does not correspond to the functions of a pastor?
I have stated why a deist CANNOT be a pastor . . . .am I wrong? how can a deist pastor a spirit filled church? will there not be a diconnect between the church and the holy spirit?

My definition of a pastor stands, unless u deny that the core message of a pastor is the salvation of the flock as commanded.

agathamari:
why do y'all keep quoting the bible? was the question does god allow polygamy or nigeria?

wetin be ur own?

Deep Sight:
"Cross" as used in the NT referred to a burden being carried by a (sometimes condemned) man.

You agree?

I disagree.

Cross refers to the death and ressurection of Jesus as symbolised in His salvation. why would the cross refer to a burden, when Christ had just risen?
can a burden be preached?. . , No. but Salvation can be preached.

So tell me. . .what does that verse tell u?

Abuzola:
'O you assembly of jinn and mankind 'Didn't messengers amongst you come to you, reciting My (GOD) verses and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours (Day of Reckoning) ?' They will say,'We bear witness against ourselves' it was the life of this world that deceived them. And they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers (kafirun)' Quran 6:130

so u dont want to tell me how to get to ur heaven? . . . dont u want me to have fun too?

Salvation . . . , , .so will u now answer my question?

@ DeepSight

have u ever read 1Corth 1:18 . . . . . . . .?

The fundamental question is "What is the truth?" . , . . . .

Abuzola:
Luvola you again, didn't you admonish us, you contributed to the thread by laughing, no prob

how does one get to this heaven? . . . it sounds like a lofly place.

@ OP

i hope u have found a meaning to ur dreaming?

A man who rejects the salvation of Jesus will reap what he has sowed, , , or am I wrong?

OLAADEGBU:
noetic,

Here are some resources for answering the critics of Noah's Ark that has been raised on this thread.  I hope they would be useful.

OLAADEGBU:
This is an article by a scientist and theologian on why Christians should believe in a global flood.

thanks. . . .I would surely go through the links.

Abuzola:
Get out jare, how can you insult one's God and then say you no get beef for that worshipper. You are a disgrace to jesus

there is a huge difference between abuzola and allah? . . .my apology goes to abuzola. . . , what have I done wrong to allah?

Abuzola:
Hmmmm ! This is just a temporary repentant, am sure you will go back to your blasphemy, that am sure.

I am not apologising for exposing allah as a FRAUD. I simply apologised if I have attacked u at any time and u feel offended.

POSAKOSA1:
Hi Noetic

howdy?

Purist:
@noetic15

Your last response in our Elijah debate, and your subsequent responses on this thread have just confirmed by fears.  You're a pathetic and dishonest debater.  I sensed that the first time I engaged you.

There seems to be this inherent, albeit unhealthy pride in you, that makes you to always rebut condescendingly whenever an opposing view/idea negates your submissions. Not a good "Christian" virtue, if you ask me.

This is made evident in the way you mischieviously evade questions by trickishly answering questions with questions, and the more criminal one - attempting to make the other party look stupid by inferring that they have misinterpreted your post, or that they read upside down, or that they cannot read at all.

Anyway, it's obvious what you're up to, every sensible person here can clearly see through your mischief.

I give up on you. . . for now.

I guess banom was right.  Deep Sight, continue at your own risk.

you are entitled to ur opinion.

manmustwac:
YES! I have felt insulted by some of your posts, but even thought it hurts i just choose to forget about it. So what made u come out with this topic then Are you genuinely sorry or do u just want them to unban noetic and noetic2

@Abuzola
am expecting your apology next. Especially to me for giving me wwork to delete your spamming

I am genuinely sorry. , .simply because I cannot have anyone address me the way I have addressed others on this forum. For that I am sorry.
My apology does not include anyone who banned me. . . . .they owe me apologies.

mazaje:
Noetic my man no need for that as far as I am personally concerned. . . . .I like you even though we disagree ALL the time but I have been able to learn somethings from your posts here no Lie. . . . .the only thing I dislike about your post is the way you attack other christians that disagree with your opinions and personal interpretation of the bible. . . .I thought you guys believe in the same thing? You don't see atheist and muslims attacking each other over personal opinions and interpratatins the way you guys do. . . . .

Thanks mazaje.

[quote author=Playboy* link=topic=338767.msg4747864#msg4747864 date=1255719824]For me i accpet your apology,  but i know that even a monkey in a punzi or suit is still a monkey, lets watch and see if you have changed ,

Meanwhile, are you not supposed to be apologising with a shinarp, cant you see the number of people only you insulted, nawao, even  tpia the nairaland witch queen dont have these number of enemies. [/quote] enjoy!

Deep Sight:
Ata boy! What a good boy now!

But i am a little dissapointed. When i saw the title, i hoped you were opening this thread to recant all your dogma.

Statements such as Mahatma Ghandi is going to hell? That needs to be recanted too!

But thanks, this is very very nice and big of you, dear Noetic.

By the way, do you know the whereabouts of your brother in christ, Davidylan? He's been missing for a while.

Ghandi going to hell is the result of rejecting the gospel. , , . . . .its not a dogma, its just the consequences of his inaction.

David is probably busy ATM  . . , he would be back as soon as he can.