₦airaland Forum

@ osisi

please ignore babs787. . . , he has nothing to say.

olabowale:
@$Osisi: Break dance if you want. You can crump, too. If you don't know what crump dance is, ask somedody who is hipp to it.

As you read your "all scripture is inspired for taeching, and what not," you forgot the other more than 66 books, scripture! THe Douwy, which is with the Catholics. Now woman, which one is the "uncorrupted", the 66 books scripture or the one more than 66 books?

Since the time we have been telling you that you read a corrupt Book, have you had the ability to show us an original? Like Seun the Chairman of Nairaland said in the catholic Thread, "Can the Original/uncorrupted Bible, please stand up?"

Folks, watch how the KJV, NIV, Douwy, ASV, etc are going to be justling for that position. And non can truly stand up.

I remembered the Bible the gave me for Bible Knowledge in High School. This was the pre-1971 publication. When the class of 1971 entered the School, their Bible was different from ours, who were before them!

Osis this was the case with what you call uncorrupted/original! Is that Original to you, uh? Come on now.

why did u not answer my question? why are u so dishonest?

oyb:
you think you are the only one with license to insult /talk trash

oh. . .so u were talking thrash? Now I know.

skyone:
Can't you all imagine; a dead man of over 2,500 years ago if i'm correct still fooling the hell out of some billions of people on this planet earth, honestly it is baffling, crazy and ridiculous.

Be careful not to say that in a muslim dominated environment. Else u might be killed, ostracised, amputated, beheaded or lynched by the faithful of allah in the name of jihad.

(1) Please can anyone tell me of one miracle he performed in the book of quran or surat whatever.

Depends on what u mean by miracle. If u mean healing the sick, blind and deaf, raising the dead and being of help. Mohammed did NONE.

But if u mean sleeping with a 9 year old girl, sleeping with slaves, having an animal like sexual instinct, being blood thirsty, unforgiving, ridiculously dishonest and chief plagiarist then mohammed "TRULY" performed miracles.

(2) Any real prophecy from him

You cant be sure he made no real prophecy. Take for instance one one hand he claimed that Jesus did not die and he also claimed that he (mohammed) is the promised holy spirit. But we have been able to establish where Jesus said in the koran that "blessed is the day I was born, die and will resurrect" This shows that Jesus was born, He died and has resurrected. We have also established from the Koran that Jesus worked with the holy spirit.

But mohammedans claim mohammed meant that Jesus would be born one day in the future, He will become an adult on the same day, die and the resurrect.  we await that fulfilment.
how can mohammed be the holy spirit who worked with Jesus when he was not born until 600 years after Jesus?

If u mean real prophecies, mohammed made NONE. He was busy abusing the 9 year old Aisha.

(3) what was his relationship with God

Mohammed NEVER knew the living God. Mohammed was born into an idolatry family. His father who died before mo was born was called Abd-allah. Which means slave of allah. Mo's father was the slave of the family's local idol called allah. This allah had a wife and 3 daughters.

Mohammed only came to elevate this allah, by displacing the other 360 idols in arabia.

What was his ministry

His ministry was lying, plagiarism, paedophilic sexual abuse, animal-like sexual desires e.t.c

In fact what is the reason behind following this man to hell fire. Pls lets be enlightened and debate on this for a while. I believe people will soon realise their mistake.

You are wrong. There is nothing to be realised. Allah has already ordained all faithful, devout, unfaithful and non-devout muslims including mohammed to end in hell.

I hope I answered all ur questions?

oyb:
osisi, you really need to train these aspiring Islam bashers in manners

your ranks are being diluted by these sorry excuses who cannot stand on two legs without their matriach propping them up

what EXACTLY was ur point?

Aremugangan:
@noetic2, U cldn't prove me wrong. U're stil talkin baselessly,

why should I? I would be surprised if u make a meaning of any of ur posts.

Lagosboy:
Bros if you must debate , do it with someone else not Noetic or you will forever be moving in circles and a sheer waste of time and energy. I have long concluded to ignore his posts.

thou HYPOCRITE . . . . .considering the numerous online atrocities u committed against non muslims on this forum, (when u were a moderator) you are LEAST qualified to preach or talk about decency, decorum or objectivity. That can only work on people new to nairaland.

[quote author=$osisi link=topic=285557.msg4057840#msg4057840 date=1245430809]People of da book you mean
Those who died without the law will be judged without the law,the Bible says
That has been taken care of.
Da book is complete [/quote]do u really think u can educate an islamic "mullah"?

olabowale:
You must be pathetic, Noetic! Open your eyes and mind to learn what the thought of the poster is. He realises that there is a disconnect by religion. She is not likey to change. He on the other hand had just become "practical Muslim."

Abuzola advised thathe could marry her. Except that he should consider the future and his own mortality.

Where is thinking? Is there any reason for your outburst, if only you are thinking straight? NO! Now, think straight and dont respond to anyone else, except you are making sense!

Darn Christian fanatic!

You are so "gifted" that I hardly make sense of ur posts any more. what are thou talking about?

lukesh56:
i want to thank everyone who have advised rationally, except Naetic or what is his id?  i can understand that marrying her will go a long way to affect the children in terms of their religion. But i dont want to be regarded as an ingrate. I'm in dilemma

are u educated at all?

this is the 21st century, both parents (male and female) have a say in the physical and spiritual life of their children, at least before the child matures.

why should a christian lady marry a fanatic, self righteous muslim who is not objective enough to know that religion is a personal thing? Another embarrassment to the islamic community.

olabowale:
@$Osisi: Am wondering if the love your lord and your neighbor stated by Jesus, as you claim in NT, does not kill off the OT, where there is more than love of God and Neighbors expressed?

How about the Kosher laws, etc? What about the Tabernacle, and the ArK of the Covenant, etc? What about the Temple Prayers, like how Moses worshipped?

You and your derailed the Thread by injecting nonsensicals. The Christian lie is always shifting like Quicksand!

are u now ready to accept Jesus as ur Lord, GOD and Saviour?

toneyb:
If he opens a thread you will never answer anything(because you have NO answer for anything), you will only continue you gimmicks by telling him to dis-prove what you have said you were going to provide answers for.

I agree.
With due respect . . . . .you are not intelligent enough to sustain a debate/argument/discussion. Thats my deduction from my correspondence with u.

Huxley don't even waste your time.

Huxley, I hope u take his advice.

@ Huxley

You have not opened a thread to ask ur 20 questions. hope they would be intelligent questions though.

toneyb:
. Let me play the game you love playing all the time, prove to me logically as well as intellectually and provide adequate evidence to show that I have said nothing.

This is what you said.
I have given you my answers. You have not even tried to show me that those assertions make any sense at all talk-less of them being nothing but the "truth".

ok.

Aremugangan:
@noetic2, na u no fit read n write. Ow many times u don remix ur statements nw? U're nt bold nor competent enof 4dis discussion. Mayb u invite som1 d@s mor skilled @manipulating words. U lack dexterity. Dnt rply unles u av somtin meaninful 2say. I min somtin lyk "truly, jesus is nt lord or d bible is nt completely d word of God"

did u make any sense?

olabowale:
you dump and dull boy as a dumb bell. are you blind that you did not see words that speak about mercy and things of favor? darn you. i see why you are a christian. read all the bible, you will not see as much of mercy from yahweh, jehovah, jesus as much as in the simple chapter i posted above.

i have nothing further to discuss with you, darn time waster. you thing my time is not precious? good bye.

FOR EVERY ONE VERSE IN THE KORAN YOU PRODUCE THAT SHOWS THAT ALLAH IS FORGIVING I WILL PRODUCE 5 VERSES THAT ESTABLISHES THAT ALLAH IS UNFORGIVING.

Why is this a problem for u olabs?

toneyb:
Sorry to say but you are being very dishonest. I said according to the christian hypothesis salvation is not a free gift to all men, I also went and explained how it can not be a free gift because you first of all have to subscribe to the christian doctrine of believing before you can partake in the salvation process. I didn't even expect you to throw what the bible had to say under the bus because you want to make a meaningless point. The bible says disbelieve or faithlessness in the christian hypothesis is a sin and says that unbelievers are condemned already. If salvation according to the christian hypothesis is free then it will not require any form of belief. It will be just what it is a free gift to all mankind. Since you have to believe first then it is not a free gift because it requires some form of belief first and foremost. You first have to believe in jesus to be able to partake in the christian salvation process. That act of believing disqualifies it as a free gift since you first have to believe.

I laid out how the salvation concept even from the bible it self has evolved from the OT to the NT, from the bible god accepting animal and human sacrifice to Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice. And I said how that concept does not make any sense to me. Your rebuttal is not even intellectual poor but does not make any sense at all.

Hell fire is a concept that was developed by the christians or the writers of the gospels and new testament scriptures, as i aforementioned, If you actually read the OT, there is no salvation, no heaven to go to, no hell to be roasted in you are just appeasing god so he doesn't kill you and your family. I said hell is just a concept which evolved and was later attached to the christian belief system and you are asking me if i have a choice of not going there, , This to me is the same thing as asking me if i have a choice of not going to the home of the invisible spagethi monster that orbits the sun. I was just stating how the concept had evolved.

Why do you also find it difficult to grasp other people's choice to disbelieve in the jesus story? I have stated my reasons for not accepting the salvation hypothesis. Any body that reads my post knows that I did not display any ignorance at all.

You just throw words around, what do you mean that I have not logically stated any reason to suggest that I was not born in sin. What is sin? Has any christian ever stated any logical reason to suggest that people are born with sin? Is the original sin concept logical? According to the christian hypothesis every body is born into this world with sin because some people that lived 6000 years ago ate a fruit of knowledge from a tree. . By the way how does knowledge reside in a tree/fruit and how do you get knowledge of right and wrong by eating from a tree?. Where is the said tree of knowledge of good and bad that adam and eve ate from? I find this entire concept and hypothesis outlandish. Remember you said that you were going to show me that the christian hypothesis is "true", so far you have not even attempted to show how it makes any sense talk-less of it being "true".

I can also play the games that you love to play all the time by asking you to logically show me and provide tangible evidence to show that I or any body owes a debt to your god, but I won't, I will just say that this claim does not make any sense at all.

You have said nothing.

Yawns, too much talk no substance at all. You said that I should state what I acknowledge in the christian hypothesis and you will then show me that they are true, so far you have not even said anything at all that makes any sense other than running around in a circle telling me to disprove what you promised to show me is true. You are just running round in a circle the way you normally do. I expected to come here and see how you will show me that the christian claims are true but I expected too much as usual. So far you have not been able so tell me any thing that makes sense talk-less of showing me that it is the truth. You have only repeated the unsubstantiated ideas, thoughts, fantasy and imaginations of ancient men that live 2000-3000 years ago who though that the world was going to end during their life times.

This is called Dishonesty. when did debate mean "show u"?

What is this? You said that you were going to show me that your hypothesis is true?

Show u what? when did debate mean show? This is ridiculous.

olabowale:
I have to spoon feed you? Take initiative, man. I already responded to your challenge. Its on, buddy.

you are so pathetic. . . .u took 2 days off to go and consult ur islamic scholars. . . , too bad. lets see what u have got.

whats the meaning of all these rubbish and nonsense u are posting here?


we are discussing the FORGIVING nature of allah. I am awaiting ur first verse.

lukesh56:
i beg you, dont say what you have no knowledge about. i will advice you to keep your mouth shut on this topic you raised.

why? are u going to "jihad" the poster?

An unintelligent islamic sycophant.

This is ridiculous. No one asked why EXACTLY should she change her religion for u?

So that u can marry 3 more and divorce her by saying it three times abi? . . . . .pathetic.

muhsin:
Here is what the word literate is defined:
lit·er·ate
adj.
1.
a. Able to read and write.
b. Knowledgeable or educated in a particular field or fields.
2. Familiar with literature; literary.
3. Well-written; polished: a literate essay.
n.
1. One who can read and write.
2. A well-informed, educated person.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/literate

LOL
In what language? Answer: Anyone.
Is Arabic not a language? Answer: Yes, it is.
Whose words deserve to be called silly? Answer: noetic2, of course.
Think again.

is it too much to ask for objectivity? what has literacy in this context got to do with read and writing norms. we are talking about thinking and reasoning. I asked u if the northerners can think/reason in arabic?

If they can, they wont be muslims.

muhsin:
The thing with these deluded, brainwashed Christians on this board is getting freaking sick, wallahi.
The demoralizing atrocities committed by non-Muslims on this earth cannot even be said, for you'll end up writing volumes of books. Yet one misguided ordinary Nigerian is here, recklessly and tactlessly, saying who kills Osama's father, this and that. Pathetic.

Any way, let me call your attention to sth.: a Muslim is a brother to a Muslim living wherever on this planet. If Osama takes a retaliatory actions over, for instance, the killings of Palestinians, Afghans, Somalis, etc Muslims he did a justifiable and rationale action.

If a non-muslim had said the above, the result would have been . . . . . . . .

islam, muslims and their HYPOCRISY.

blame for what?

very meaningless a thread.

he was poisoned and died. No evidence he went to aljanat as allah says all of em will go to hell.
Too bad. . . .a prophet who made no prophecy, did no miracle, and lived unjustly could NOT foresee his own poisoning and avert it. Last prophet indeed.

The bible says "it is appointed unto men to die once, after that judgement" I believe mohammed has received judgement. , .yes u are right, thats where he is.

toneyb:
Normally when you give somebody a gift you do expect anything in return. Salvation according to the christian hypothesis is not a free gift since the bible god expects something in return you first have to believe before you can get that gift. I am only trying to point out that Salvation is NOT a free gift as christians like to claim it is according to the christian hypothesis.

You havent proven anywhere here that anything is wanted in return of salvation.

praise/worship is optional.
believe/dis-believe is optional. faith/faithlessness is not a sin. Faith is a gift and is optional.
u also have the option of not going to hell. but u dont believe in hell. . . .do u?

u honestly have not said anything thought provoking.

That's because you have to first believe there is a god to believe in jesus. the premise behind him is immoral and primitive.

According to the christian hypothesis people are supposed to believe that there is an all powerful, knowing, loving entity out there who loves humanity wants nothing more than their worship but the best idea he can come up with to save people (from himself) is by killing? what kind of nutjob thinks this is a good idea or even something that would cross the mind of a being like mentioned above? he requires the wholesale slaughter of animals(and sometimes humans) as sacrifice unto him for a few thousand years resulting in millions of deaths, alters covered in blood, and then they have to set them on fire because god likes the smell (Gen 8:20,21)?

If you actually read the OT, there is no salvation, no heaven to go to, no hell to be roasted in you are just appeasing god so he doesn't kill you and your family.You cant even make it to the Jesus story without realizing it is a stupid concept and one that was made up by primitive people. god himself fails right out of the gate making Jesus a non issue.

Jesus in a further act of "love" this god decided to come to earth (himself, his son, michael, or whatever you believe doesn't matter as none of the scenarios work), in the form of a human being as the ultimate blood sacrifice. So he has this fleshly body beaten to a pulp and then killed in a gruesome way so that people don't have to kill animals(or sacrifice themselves) anymore to him and people can be saved from his own wrath.  .

I cant believe u said all this. Am I dreaming?

was it not u that said this:

"Salvation according to the the christian hypothesis is the concept that god, as part of divine providence, "saves" humanity from spiritual death or eternal damnation [/b]by providing for them an [b]eternal life ( afterlife),"

So if according to u salvation entails a divine providence, spiritual death and damnation and an eternal life, none of which can be proven with human sensual abilities. Isnt it safe to state that to believe in salvation u must also subscribe to an after life dogma? so why are u going on about believing in Jesus or not believing? is He not the center point of focus of the "salvation" concept?

ur argument here was really intellectually poor. I am disappointed.

Now it gets even worse (depending on your interpretation of the bible) as now this Jesus introduces a new concept- eternal torture/punishment.

what do u understand by hell fire? who was it originally made for? do u have the choice of not going to hell fire?

In this system you have to acquire salvation through Jesus (just exactly how is still open to debate after 2000 years) where if you die before being "saved"- you are toast.A man can rape and murder an unsaved girl and she will go to hell, he on the other hand can "find Jesus" in prison and live happily in heaven for eternity. 

It'd be like your god throwing everyone in the ocean and then dangling a life jacket asking "ok, who doesnt want to drown?"

Why don't i believe in Jesus? because he isn't good enough, his father isn't good enough, the whole idea and hypothesis isn't good enough. he is nothing more than a twisted, sick, idiotic concept of a thug that was invented by very primitive minds and no one in their right mind would buy into. it may sound all good on the surface when you hear about how you are loved, protected, helped in this world and you get to go to heaven when you die, but why are YOU condemned in the first place because someone ate some fruit 6000 years ago? PLEASE.

Now u are talking, by making assertions.

You exercised a choice, an option by refusing to subscribe to the Jesus story/believe. why then is it difficult to gasp other people's choices of believing in the Jesus story?

christians believe in an after-life, where Jesus reigns. Toneyb, you have NOT stated any logical or intellectual reason to discredit the christian salvation doctrine. I was expecting a lot better than this. Your claims on gift, praise, worship and hell have revealed an ignorance on ur part and a contradiction as established here of ur understanding of this salvation concept.

I wasn't born evil, wicked, full of "sin" and in need of salvation (and don't even try to tell me that all the lovey children I see around me were born evil), im sorry if you've been convinced you are but I know what kind of person I am. I am humane, honest, and helpful to others. i love my family and friends, i am an intellectually honest person who evaluates my situations and makes the best decisions I can can based on the available evidence. So the christian hypothesis makes no sense, it is only a feel good hypothesis that even christians themselves fail to agree and accept some some of its basic concept because of how nonsensical it is.

All u have done here is to state an opinion of personal assessment. Nothing here adds value to the issue at hand.
You have not stated any logical reason to suggest that u were not born without sin. by providing this (logical analysis of ur sinless birth), u logically discredit one of the christian pillars of salvation.

You simply dont subscribe to the christian salvation doctrine. . . . . .that does not mean this doctrine is false. u have simply expressed ur personal opinion.

Not according to the christian hypothesis. According to the Christian hypothesis you first have to believe and do some rituals with include praise and worship before you can partake in the "gift" of salvation.

I have already clarified this, unless u have any logical explanation to my refute. This is done and dusted.

You have never heard about because you do not read your bible very well. The bible says that " He that does not believe is condemned already". Faith is not a  free gift according to the christian hypothesis because you first of all have to believe in other to be able to receive that gift, that's the point I have been trying to make all along.

I thought u understood the subjects at stake. The reward for ur choice whether u accept this gift or not is called judgement. refusal of this gift, means u owe a debt, which u must eventually pay in the after-life.

I do not believe in the hell brouhaha and I do not feel threatened by it as you are trying to suggest. I was only giving an example of a threat and I used hell as an example. I can NEVER feel threatened by hell because I KNOW it does not exist. It is only an idea and imagination of ancient primitive men, which was invented to keep people in line.

Fine. But it seems to be the defining factor of ur anti-salvation stance. Do u know how many times u directly/indirectly referred to hell?

No insults intended. But I gained nothing from ur post, I expected a robust logical argument that rubbishes the salvation doctrine, all I got here are opinions and recycled misconceptions of this doctrine, which anyone on the forum could easily have refuted. Please ensure that u state ur logical and intellectually objective basis for disbelieving anything. It helps the quality of the debate and other readers enjoy it too. No offence.

Lets assume I was in ur shoes in this debate, what would I do?
1. I would state logical emphasis/analysis that discredits the concept of a sinful nature at birth. You did not do this, all u did was to state a personal opinion that suggests otherwise.
2. I would state logical emphasis/analysis that rubbishes the concept of being accountable to an invincible deity at death, to illustrate that I have no spiritual debt to pay.
3. I would admit my dogmatic stance on the impossibility of an after life where Jesus is Lord, but respect opposite dogmas and call for a debate. And many more.

all of these would have made this debate intellectually driven and thought provoking. This posts was simply a recycling of word, no new knowledge was transmitted.

Sure, like the idea of original sin and satan.

What do u understand by the word belief/believe?

olabs, come and state ur case.

muhsin:
I pity you, Tudor. How you still define the word 'illiterate' portraits your ignorance and stupendous stupidity, for its the same way colonial masters did in the early 20th century when they first set their put in the North.

Who is illiterate? Go anywhere and ask: any person who can read and write cannot be called by that name. And the Northerners, since then and now, majority of them can, at least, read Arabic letters and write in Arabic-based Hausa, i.e. Ajami. Are they illiterates?

This is ridiculous.

reading and writing has little or nothing to do with literacy. Can they think in arabic?
A child is taken to islamic scholars at the age of 4 to cram and memorise the words of a language he has no understanding of, and u call the literacy.
can u mushin think in arabic? why do u think the koran is thought in arabic? Its simply because of the "incredibly nefarious" things it contains.

How can u read the english koran and still be a muslim? you need to read and digest allah's thoughts towards u as stated in the koran.

As for the northern muslims, nothing in their character and intolerance shows that they are educated/literates.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=284907.msg4044520#msg4044520 date=1245257070]Ha? [/quote]

get ready to be a slave of allah.

but u never asked me to open a thread initially. . . . .   did u?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-285557.0.html

KAG:
It is after we've deduced that esensed has an ontology - and I already did so - that we can ask esensed, not me, what his or her ontology, away from the basic generalities, are.

why do u like walking in a closed circle? since u have established that esensed has an ontology, what stops u from defining/stating that ontology?

toneyb:
From a legal point of view Salvation isn't a gift, it is extortion.


ANALYSIS OF "GIFT"

Gift - The act by which the owner of a thing, voluntarily transfers the title and possession of the same, from himself to another person who accepts it, without any consideration.

Consideration - A benefit which must be bargained for between the parties, and is the essential reason for a party entering into a contract.  Basically, it is the "quid pro quo" of the bargain.  If a donor doesn't bargain for and gets nothing in return for the donation, then it is a gift.

In the case of "salvation" there is a quid pro quo.  Salvation will only be given if you "believe" or "say the sinner prayer" etc.  It would only be a gift is it was donated without any consideration

A gift can be rejected. A gift is a reflection of the giver's generosity. Its acceptance or rejection is totally dependent of the receiver's good will.

In the case of salvation, Christ died cos the "wages of sin is death". This death is a second death. Its not important u subscribe to this analogy of afterlife/eternity. For all have sinned and come short of God's glory.

From this I can deduce that there is an eternal debt which all of mankind owes. someone has paid the price in the form of a gift, it is however dependent on the recipient to accept/acknowledge the gift.

ANALYSIS OF "EXTORTION"

Extortion - Extortion is a criminal offense which occurs when a person obtains either money, property, services, or any thing of value from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion.

Coercion - Coercion is the practice of compelling a person or manipulating them to behave in an involuntary way (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force.

The elements we have to rpove to convict him of extortion are:

1) Obtaining
2) A thing of value
3) Through
4) Threats

well stated.

1) Obtaining - He gets your praise and commitment to worship him.  It goes to God and not to anyone else.

I believe that I have addressed this issue in the "why I am a christian" thread. But in this context, praise is an appreciation to the sender of the gift for a job well done. This is done simply to get another gift. It is optional, not compulsory.

2) A thing of value - He basically gets your whole mind.  You must not only say you believe, you must BELIEVE.

I have never heard of anywhere where faithlessness is referred to as a sin. neither have I heard or read of anyone in the bible who sinned by being faithless/believe-less. As a matter of fact faith is a gift. ur faith in ur friend/sponsor/parents grows with time, as they stand there by your side, so does ur faith in GOD.

Abraham had a gift of faith and was called the friend of GOD, for believing in an invincible GOD.
Thomas refused to believe that Jesus had risen, he was NEVER condemned for his disbelief. faith is optional and grows with time and faithlessness is not a sin.

3) Through - He doesn't get your mind as a gift from you.  He only gets it through the use of some tactic.

I dont want to make assumptions, please elaborate on this.

4) Threats - "I will burn you in hell for all eternity" seems like a threat to me.

This is false. Hell is optional. u have the option of going to heaven.
You shouldn't feel threatened by what u dont believe/subscribe in. Take for instance I dont subscribe to obatala, sango, allah and orunmila as such I dont fear their perceived repercussions.

If however u feel threatened, I guess its because u are troubled that u are on the wrong path.

So, to sum up, when God says that if you do not do a thing (believe in him, accept him as your savior, do the normal christian ritua, whatever) then he will torture you forever, he is NOT giving you a gift.  He is committing extortion.  (As long as we agree that your praise of him or worship is a "thing of value."   Seems to be valuable to God since he is willing to torture people for it.) . So Christians, stop telling people that salvation is a gift or is free.  It's conditional on whether or not you say the prayer(worship God) and force yourself to believe.

you are only expected to believe in hell fire if u believe there is an after life and a GOD.



is there any other christian belief u find ambiguous?

@ olabs

have thou accepted defeat?