₦airaland Forum

If God Father = God Son = God Holy Spirit, how can the Holy Spirit be "banned" or "absent" from Heaven?

But I think what Jo was trying to say here was that the sphere of influence of the HS is directed toward here rather than there. Still wrong because God (HS) is not limited anyplace but it was likely just an allegory and I think he can be forgiven for that.

Meanwhile, me too would like to see Chukwudi44 face Image123's poser.

This Image123 is rapidly becoming NL's mobile policeman abi na EFCC.

LIFE is not about gist; it is not about excitement. It is not about making money and leaving trillions to generations yet unborn who MIGHT not even get born. It is not saying "I love Jesus and attend every service in 15 churches" or "I love Muhammad and perform my 5 prayers right". It is the FRUIT you produce. Going to church, noise-making, dancing etc are distractions when we come to brass tacks. Why go dance in church? Isn't Sunny Ade's music or Michael Jackson's better PLUS more professionally performed?

Over and over, I seem angry and insultive on Nairaland - as it were, "an equal opportunity insulter". It is because of the holes I see in people especially those i feel ought know better. Their "vapidness" or ought I say "shallowness". Let me explain - Both major religions believe in one God. Both have precepts, styles, dogma etc. But we mainly miss the beauty of reality whist explaining the bible particularly as insisting all we need do is pray, worship and dance. We believe in the FIRST MAN Adam. But what was Adam's role on earth i.e. what was he created for? what were his job functions? What was he supposed to do? Suprisingly, most belief systems find their roots also in a "Adam" type of start. But as I ask above, what was Adam's God-given task? Why was He to be "as" a God? This is the confusion that our business pastors have found their own explanation for because they miss the beauty of the scripture.

Simply put, Adam was told to "tend" the garden, to be its "solutions provider"! Lets say a plant needed manure. He was to supply it. Lets say a lion cub was abandoned by its mother - he was to bring it back to her. Lets say there was too much water flowing in one direction (flooding) and not enough in another (paucity), he was to re-channel the water so each/both had enough supply rather than imbalance. He was to be to the Garden as God was to man.

He was to be an answer to prayer to all the things that were under his domain. Christ is called the second Adam. Christ did the exact same whist on earth. The Bible says He went around doing "good", REPAIRING or "undoing the works of the evil one" whose chosen task is to "steal, kill, destroy". He was "another solutions provider". Read Isaiah 61 - its insane just how His task was to be that and nothing else. "The Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty for the captives, and release from darkness for the prisoners, , , etc etc".

Look at the work Christ left to His apostles. They were to solve everyone's problems. That is what God wants us to be - IN HIS IMAGE! Not an alternative "God" performing OUR own desires and tying them to Him at any cost. A "solutions provider"!!! That widow is crying- Pay her rent! That Orphan is hungry - feed and house him. Your society has issues - solve them. IF Christians did what Christ did, I believe Nigeria would have no problems. But the business "Men of God" and the Career "Men of the Pulpit" have been manifested and they twist scripture to support indolence, sloth and greed. "Bring your tithes" is what they say! "My God is a good God" is what they say". But then what? The society around you is suffering and is filled with the needy but as long as you have your private jet and SUVs, your God is good. Well, satan truly may seem good to his own.

Our "garden of Eden" is the world around us today. I follow that creed which doesn't allow me find joy in my exclusive prosperity. I do NOT give a flying f-ck what you believe in or where you come from. If I see you have a need (N E E D, not want), I will try to fulfil it whether Christian or muslim, man or woman, black or red. You matter to me not because you're my brother but because I was created to be like God and support Him - 10, 000,000 people are praying (whether consciously or not) and I solve the problems of 20. That makes it 9, 999, 980 people praying. What if 1, 000, 000 people were doing same? That would mean ALL prayers have been solved and there's extra.

I imagine how it'd be if we truly acted our role and answered prayers - because the wealth, knowledge and thought processes entrusted to us were not meant to be hoarded for our own children but to be used for all mankind. We are called to subdue the earth and not other men. Make the earth work for you. Harness the Oceans. Then and only then can we truly be seen as representatives of God. Or as we were designed to be - Sons of God.

As I finish this, I see "Image123" has just posted. I agree in a way as that is another type of role. To show the difference and thus show satan for what he is.

Lets create a new thread for it. Please would you do the honors and create it? I'm behind you. I think NL is about to get the shock of its existence and many "christians" a wake up call

@Inesqor:

I've been waiting for Viaro to come back before asking this but my patience is waning.

"Origin of Sin", "Inerrancy of the Bible", "Trinity" etc all seem to be much the same TO ME as discussing "freedom of the press". They remain semantics. The issue is what exactly is the "message" of the scripture, the "meat" of the Gospel. what exactly is the Gospel itself and what were you/I/the "Sons of God" created for? I have some weird theories which I'll defend with my life and today, I shared them for the first time ever with a much loved member of this forum though not on the forum but private mail.

Whats your take on the above?

@DS:

You too, Lawyer? Whats Satan's take?

Tpia:

You >> A Total Wonder!

Isaiah 45 verses 5,6 & 7:

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The above is what DS wishes to hear and yes, its there in the Word. However, the text shows that just as Inesqor and Aletheia have repeatedly stated, evil is the consequence of creating good. You make one and the other is automatic. What was at the beginning was God. Fini. His decisions and standards of good automatically created evil.

@Tpia:

Sorry but please, what are the "questions springing up"?

I think the OP just gave his own view and whist it may seem wrong to you, it obviously seems ok in his estimation

@DS:

Replace "instincts" with "desire" if that will butter your toast

@Jenwitemi:

Your theology is faulty. Rather than depend on hearsay which you have decided to give credence, why not study? The KOH you speak of - is it in the past or present or future? Or did you create it in your own mind as an amalgamation of hearsay, past, future and wishful thinking?

^^^ You will never understand until you face truth, Jo! For now, you are blinded by your stomach and so cannot see truth if it hits you in the face loosening 2 molars.

But it ought be clear to you that so many others are not blind to the truth. As stated above, your tummy has put blinkers on your eyes but not on others

I remember a phrase from a song from an old movie

"The good lord God gave man a hand of Iron, to do his work and not complain,
the good lord God gave man a hand of iron, BUT
with a little bit of luck, with a little bit of luck,
someone else will do the blinking work"

Many would be too young to have seen "My fair Lady" but the above taken from it aptly describes this issue. The one singing has decided that the hand "could" RATHER be applied to compelling another to do his work. That, he calls luck though acknowledging the fact that the hand was created for his own work. That is what is happening on this page - people trying to blame God for evil to make themselves feel better about their lives.

God's laws remain true till today. Our choice to live filthy remains OUR choice. Rather than seek to blame God for our greed and poor choices, why not decide for change. Its childish and reprehensible to say the creators of Chocolate or Tobacco were the ones who gave you diabetes or cancer. All you had to do was zip your gut. Some others did that.

@Mai-suya:

Your humility shows and your claim of being young in the faith is sincere. As time passes, experience and reality will inform you of satan's methods. Consider -when he went to Jesus, he quoted scripture to try to get Christ to do his own bidding. Each time, discernment made Christ reject the plot of satan. In the same way, much of Chris oyakilomes teachings are very sound scripturally. That allows the listener lower his/her guard. The excitement he has so well practiced generating also makes it appealing and then like satan, he requests a deviation from the precepts of Christ.

Nobody here has personal contact with the oyaks cat. I'm not a pastor and do not wish for such position after what the oyaks have turned it to. So its not envy or jealousy. The reality is that these people are starting with truth and ending with a lie and we are called to love. Love will not ignore his brother walking into a trap or watch him enter a snare.

On helping them win souls, why not look at God's Word and try to compare with the Apostles. Where do you find them requesting money to "win souls". Was it money that won Saul AKA Paul? Was it money that created the movement named after pentecost that lasts till today? Was it money that Peter used to get the cripple to rise? Ananias and Sappiha - where is the effect of money in the supernatural judgement ? Where is it with the serpent that bit Paul and made his observers decide he had to be a "god"? Were suchlike not the catalyst for what lasted to today? Or was it the Oyaks who made Xtianity the world's primary belief system?

Brother, you will NOT find those believers that the Bible considers as worthy of mention EVER seeing money as a tool for evangelism. Christ Himself told them not to equip themselves - "eat whatever is set before you" is what He said, not "request for prophet offering and special anointing gifts etc".

Where do the Oyaks get their own theology?

Was it the priests or the people that God was talking to in Malachi? Reading from Mal 1: 6 shows the truth.

Please tell us then - who was supposed to bring tithe into the store house? Note this was the tithe of the tithe that the priests were stealing. Just like you people do today

Jenwitemi:

Inesqor has started to explain but let me try to give another perspectivenon this issue.

Until God made laws and said, "this is bad", there was NO sin or transgression possible. Once laws were in place, sin became a possibility.

The choice of doing right or wrong belongs to us. As long as we are tempted and do not act on the temptation, we remain free of sin. Satan acted on his instincts and decided he wanted more than was his due. That was the onset of sin. Its like saying a gun kills. No, people kill. And they don't just kill (in this case) - they DECIDE to kill

@Mai Suya:

You seem in a hurry to make your conclusions. That is very sad.

Whether wealthy or not, you can give to your pastor. The issue is why! Why does God give us? Is it because He expects something from us or because He loves us. Why did Satan say to God that God's hedge around Job was the only reason why Job worshipped God? Was it not because he wanted trouble for the man? And if you decide to give God (who owns ALL things), the Bible says Christ lives with the poor. So who should you give?

Anyway, if you are a true giver, you will behave as God and give because you emphatise with somebody's need and want to be an answer to prayer. You will give in thanksgiving to God. You will give because you realise that all you have is a trust given to you by God which ought be used for His work. And what is God's work? Caring, loving, releasing captives, wiping tears away.

Joagbaje and his cohorts give because they want more. For them it is business, an investment, a way of arm-twisting God and that is reprehensible. But you do not have to believe me. Why not read the Bible and show where any of Christ's Apostles behaved like Jo and his master Chris? Just one example, please, of the Apostles giving because they wanted more. The people who walked with Jesus physically gave out of the little they had FOR THE POOR. Paul refused gifts and even boasted he was pleased working for his bread and water and not taking from any congregation. Or please show where they collected tithes or prophet offering or whatever?

Then come back and tell us - what work does chris oyakilome and coy do? What is the source of their extreme wealth? On this forum, I have spoken of a gentleman, a former bank manager who said God called him to go to a fetish village and live his cushy life. He left his own 2 cars and official cars and duplex in Bodija, moved into a village without electricity (first time I went there, I feared) and years after he got there, electricity came there. When some of us came together and got him another car, he sold it and used it to enhance the school he had taken there. Suffice it to say they look at him like Christ - he gives them. He feeds his sheep. That is a man of God. He does not have a single acolyte because he will not countenance such. He does not have any "worshippers" who defend him. His precedents speak for him and his generations will be blessed. Please remember that this man had wife and three children before he moved to the village. Imagine how they felt or how he felt not been able to provide for them all the things they were used to prior to that. But he saw God's work as greater and forged ahead. He has single handedly destroyed the former dependence on occultic powers by his personal life there. Then tell me - was he doing it in the spirit Joagbaje details above?

Do you know any CE members? What do you say of them? Fruits, sir. Your fruit shows who you are, not gist. Not a Prado jeep. Not cheating people and saying you are teaching them investments. Who God wishes to bless, He blesses regardless of tithe. If you disagree, tell me where Dangote, Babangida, Opray and Bill gates pay tithe to.

@Jo:

This is simple english - It is GOOD to GIVE. It is scriptural to give. The benefits of giving are greater than those of taking. Please note that those benefits are not neccessarily financial. The motive is also an issue. Real givers are not looking for returns. Those who give for returns (all the tripe you spout about it being God's plan for prosperity) are only investing and not giving.

Now whether you give to the poor or to a widow or the fatherless or to your so called "man of God" (for what child of God isn't a man of God), giving is good.

The point I make above is that once giving is twisted to refer only or mainly to "men of God", there is a problem. And that is what you and your peers have turned it into. And your giving is actually NOT giving but investing - you give 10 because you believe you will get 20 then give that because you expect 50. Tell me then what is the difference between you and Dangote?

In absolute terms, Chris Oyakilome has less need than the average orphan needing food or the widow searching to pay her rent. But you and co turn scripture around to make it seem as though Oyaks is the needy one and giving him is what will open the windows of heaven. In effect, you are making people look at the whole concept of giving as you do - you refuse to do right and cross sea to get converts and then you make them twice as terrible as yourselves.

"In God's Name PLC" is what you should be called

^ Would like examples of such situations where people are against giving to ministers.

What is wrong is doing that exclusively and with the wrong motive i.e. Because you wish for returns or special favors. another perspective is that men of God whose thrust is worldly are likely not what they claim. Where your treasure is, there will your heart be

@Brothers:

I think you guys were too much in a hurry.

It would normally, be laudable what Jo initially stated but his caveat following it clarifies his stand. He wants you to [1] give to God (in church whist the Bible says Christ lives with the needy) [2] give to the poor [3] give to projects in church whist the Apostles gave to uplift people not build monuments to pastors [4] give to the man of "god", again in church [5] give to your parents

Minimum for church using a linear math model would be 60% of your gifts. Please realise tithes are not included here so church may actually get 90% with parents and poor sharing the crumbs.

In my estimation, its 6 in one hand and half a dozen in the other.

Why are so many refusing to believe DeepSight? This is no longer about the occurence but DeepSight's veracity.

^^Point taken

What "reborned" him? Or ought I say "by what process was he "reborned" that would have allowed him do same?

Which is the issue. The above shows they are claiming sameness with Christ and not small "g"s when the chips are down!

^^ "amazing" reasoning there.

Christ was opening a door and saying that because you come through THAT door He opened, you'd be able to do many things even to the point of surpassing Him. Yet here you insist that what He meant was that you could create another door, open that yourself, then do whatever you wanted.

How does it work when you put the cart before the horse? Still, I guess the above was only meant in the spirit of academia rather than reality. As Image123 would say - "the letter killeth".

@Bastage:

Maybe you should look at it like this -

"On the day named after the Sun God, I kneel at the foot of the crucifix (designed for implementing a painful death) and consume symbolic ritualistic fare."

I'm not certain Brown believes Sundays are set aside for Ra or that crosses were symbols affliated to Ra

"Grammatically", there exists no distinctions! In reality though, my own problem is with the tacit "implied" support given them. Moses was to be a "god" to the people and Aaron his priest. That is how THEY intepret what you support. But this is a different covenant and there are no "Moses'es" (forgive the grammar). Now, if such no longer exists OR following the Bible meaning, EVERYONE IS NOW MOSES, then the title of "Moses" is useless. Do you now get what I mean? Whats the usefulness of the title "god" if everyone is a god?

And that is why there is concerted effort to glorify some ministries above others. So you hear things like "everyone must be under a pastor", He is a "Man of God", etc.

What you still are not getting is regretably, what you used as the basis for this thread. So its there and you're missing it. When they talk to you and I, AND GET CALLED OUT, they lower the heat and it becomes small "g". But that remains a mask. Look at what you wrote! Look at Tonye-T's post above! Look at my "Paula White" thingy. Look at the patent glorification of pastor chris anytime they mention him. Consider Copeland saying he too could easily have done what Christ did. There's not a small "g" there.

The best you can give with their interpretation is that we (you and I) are your small "g"s, they are big "G"s and God is the distant somewhat distinct "g". Thats in english. In the Bible's language however, that distinction is not made. "g" = "G"! And there are 2 "G"s according to the Bible - the real and the fakes. The third one doesn't exist.

BTW, the concept of ruling over the world makes us as Lords over it, not over others (we were to subdue the earth and not other men). In effect, we can "lord" it over what we "create", not over ourselves (at least not until man can match God and create man). WoF turns SPECIFIC individuals into "gods" and makes servlings of others. I would say then -  the problem with the WoF teachings is that it takes a truth and turns it into a lie. There may be many shades of gray, DeepSight, but Black is not White

Faith is another large issue which you've imported with your latest post. It cannot be treated in concert with the current without us losing focus. Let's settle the current issue

@DS:

You are wrong because you are not getting the point. The Bible is not ambigous when it says we were created in the image of God. We all know that is what it says. The point is "that does not make us Gods" in the same way the God IS. At best, we are transient, a passing fancy, so to say. Being a solution provider means acting in the place of God, being LIKE Him and not becoming Him.

Thats the naunace you seem to miss. I see myself as created to be as a wife to her husband, to Christ. A Helper. A guy is crying out (audibly or not) to God and I am able to take away his pain by offering the assistance he needs. Thats God-like - I have stood in the breach for God by the Grace of God and with His help. The people I despise claim that they, like God, are able to do things. And they take, then give back some, then magnify the small to seem huge. What do you say to a "Christian" (Paula White) who takes "atonement offerings"?

When Jesus spoke of faith achieving great things, it was in the context of trust in God, not trust in self. Your "faith" friends will back down at the very last and accede that yeah yeah yeah, Jesus is superior BUT! And they stop with the "but". That is not Christian, not matter how many titles you put before your name! And neither is it christian to do this for profit (couched in any form or other of deception).

Count on it, DS, me and Jo do not agree on the "Gods" issue. For him, it is for profit. For me, it is a responsibility. Motive makes all the difference.

I actually agree with DeepSight's reasons. What I think he fails to realise is that many people here, though assured that these people will as easily do the stated as breathe, wonder if this particular example is not a figment of his imagination and concocted out of thin air. But the story is credible as we all know they do worse regularly. So keep your name to yourself, DS.

The point you wish considered is why would such thrive? I believe it thrives because we have turned all things into an academic exercise - Christianity has become a guy practicing in front of his mirror. Grammar, inflections, timing and delivery, of course accompanied by favorable peer review, have become of more import than the spirit behind Mankind.

My personal musings inform that if created in the image of God, man ought be a solution provider - a homeless child needs a place, give it to him! A deprived young woman requires help to complete education, offer it to her FREE. Feed widows, the orphans etc. These are the tasks God does - answering prayers and providing succour and all for free. The best you can give anyway is to say "thank you". But where the basic message behind Christianity details the above, what we have today is people seeing the belief system as a means to their own glorification - either as tithe-payers (expecting "returns" from God) or as tithe-collectors (I ate my cake and still got it). Which is why your MOGS win and why only a very few of us detest the concept.

Sadly, DS is part of the problem when you see the legality and not the motive. You see a guy using language constructs to explain away theft, avarice and greed and you say "His words are scriptural". So why do you have issues with such going the hog and demanding money?

The truth is that the real message has been lost. We were created in the image of God. But how many of us are truly "gods" (solution providers and creators). Maybe that is what we ought discuss - what exactly should a Christian be like?

@sweetnecta:

I believe the person I spoke to is mature enough to understand the Bible is a message and not a textbook thus he'd get my point.

Why not tell us what's right rather than just damning another's opinion. Your people are renowned for giving offence whist unable to take same.

But if you feel up to it, today'll be fun

^^^ Not defending anything there, Sir. I believe I see a subtle shift as creation progresses from the impersonal to more personal up until man. And then came woman (which explains the inherent complexity). Language like "created", "made" become more obvious.

Not that any of this adds value to the thread's reason!

^^ 

Really wish you'd allowed him twist himself into a pretzel over inheritance of Naira from poor people. That is the insidiousness of their false Gospel. Rather than allow scripture to explain scripture, they quote in part and switch to default (419) mode where they start with truth and subtly end with a lie, at which time, the lie has been buttressed with the misquote.

Their preference for this world's pleasures show them up more than anything else.  To them, Heaven can go jump.

Inheritance ko, car rental ni.

^^ Seems it was the heavenly bodies and weather that He "spoke" into being. The others were created (Adam was made and breathed over).

@debosky:

I am certain of having received such help of the Spirit of God myself and so have no issues with what you just stated.

It is the insidiousness and gentle shift from God's Will to Your will that first struck me here. Then the credits - Anita Oyakilome which has now been changed to Chris Oyakilome. So tell me why the change (not of the words but of the author)? So who's the brilliant preacher? And what would that brilliance suggest if not his "glorification" and a sale? Seemingly condemnatory words but, ,

One last thing - The Apostles had the empowerment of the Spirit and used it to develop the Kingdom of God, not acquire cash. When you read the above, do you get ANY sense of applicability to the spiritual? Did not Christ say His kingdom was not of this world? I repeat - do you get the faintest slightest inkling when reading the above of its applicability to the Kingdom of God? Motive/intent are in my estimation, what makes things right or wrong.

@Debosky:

Lets break down the above -

[1] Decide what you want
[2] Focus on it
[3] Concentrate
[4] Work

Did you ever read Norman Vincent Pearle? Did you ever take an exam? Did you ever decide to lose weight? Did you ever make up your mind to go after the darling of your heart? So please tell me - whats the difference between what you did and whats above? Or was it the HS when you were in high school (before becoming Christian)? Or the HS that helped you lose weight etc?

You're right I've had issues with Jo in the past. But you're wrong that this is a witch-hunt. Often when you post, one can see the wisdom of God in what you write. It is YOU writing. Jo is not like that - he is a pen in the hands of another person. That is the first problem. Then comes the issue of motive. The above is a sale, a means of getting acolytes/customers. He is selling CE. But church ought not be sold. Then comes the meat of the post itself.

When God empowers, He does it for a reason and He can allow the gift to be dormant for a season. That is wisdom. And it is because He sees the end. I am positive such has occured to you. It is called "Thy will be done on earth". When the time/season comes, it will manifest. The above pushes us in another direction. With it, we're not looking at God's sovereign plan/design but rather at what we wish. But it is couched in "Chritianese". This is just the power of positive thinking, not HS empowerment.

HS empowerment comes from simply realising you have divine support and trusting in that, rather than trusting in the ability supposedly now INNATE in you and using such for whatever you desire.