₦airaland Forum

@Davidylan: View gbade.x data. He is only 19 years old. Younger than my last child. Even though I disagree with him, we are from opposite ends of religious spectrum, but I do not mind to read his contribution. Even he shorten my name and I have not complaint to him about it. Unfortunately, you are different. You never write with the decorum of any civility and you only criticise other people's writing without providing any tangible materialsof your own. I do not know if Rochester NY has that negative impact on you that mired you in ignorance, since you had told me that your mother is a Doctor, you must have raise right by her!

Go back to the foundamentals of your upbringings. The Yoruba people are go as any people in raising their latest generation. Be as civil as gbade.x, at least. Do not absorb the negatives of america without the positives. The Cuomos, The Kennedys, etc, regardless of their 'whiteness' have respect amongst one another. If you do not have anything worthy to say, stay away from just entering nonsensical and stop just asking questions. American education is more than empty questioning alone in debates.

Also, study havila, Babyosisi, etc and you will find that they defend their religion with materials from Bible. Even though I completely disagree with them, you need to at least try to put something down, not the usual "" You need to do better.

@gbade.x: We have answered these questions before. However, because, Islam is not a religion that allows its adherents to show arrogance, then here is the answer to your first questions. The Qur'an was not revealed to Muhammad in one shot nor all of it in a cave. This is the assertion of the scholars of christendom, eg Havila, Babyosisi on Nairaland and your Mutamushrikuun around the world. The first revelation is in the cave of Hira andit is only 5 verses! There is a period of 13 years of revelations in Makka and 10 years after in Madina. The cave that you are talking about is not near madina. Just this last sentence destroys your statement.

Second answer: The revelations were dictated, as soon as possible. The copies are distributed to all that wants to have it. They learnt it and use it in Salah, other functions, like in marriages, naming ceremonies, funerals, meeting and departing from each other or one another. In every Month of Ramadan, in all the 23 years, what ever was revealed was Qur'an and that was recited one time each to each other by Muhammad and Gabrael. The 23rd year was different, it was recited twice by each entity. That was the year that Muhammad died, without ever reaching the next Ramadan, after Hajj. From all of these, there are various quantity of Qur'an amongs the Muslims, from very few revelation to complete volume of revelation of the Qur'an. However, the most important thing was that there were over several hundreds of muslim men and women who memorized the complete Qur'an during the lifetime of Muhammad. Everyone was a check for the other in the proper recitation of the Qur'an. Today the Youngest can correct the Oldest in the recitation of Qur'an, even in Salah. There is no room for error, unlike your ever changing and never stable Bible!

Answer number three: There is a book titled; Introduction to the Science of Qur'an, by Jamal Sarabozzo, in English and thThe choice by Ahmad Deedat, both in English. From them, you will find picture of the patchments of the Original. Also, in The national Musium of Turkey and I believe that The Musium of London have a complete Al Qur'an and even patchments from the original revelation. You must know that Qur'an is really an oral tradition project. I was very important that people memorize it as much as they can and it is a life long effort, constantly trying to be better in the memorization. It is unlike the Bible.

THe fourth Answer: Al Qur'an is different from Hadith. Qur'an is a complete revelation that answers all questions and there is no Hadith in it. It is God, alone that Speaks in the Qur'an. Hadith is a separate book consisting of saying and action and what Muhammad bin Abdallah (AS), allows from his companions (RA). As stated about Qur'an, the first 'Binded Book form' of Qur'an, was done , under great restistance in the time of the first Khalifah, Abu Bakr. They made it into a single book from all the already written down original revelation and the reassurance/surety of recitation of each verse by many who memorize it. So what you have are two sources agreing/complimenting each other so as to be sure that whatever was available as Qur'an in the lifetime of muhammad is what you have after him and it is what you have today! The complete Book form that was made at the first during the life of Abu Bakr was made because the pagan tribes of Arabia were killing a great number of this group of people who memorized the complete Qur'an. The first Copy was left in the custody of Afsat, the Mother of Believers (RA). In the life of the third Khalifah, Uthman bin Affan, the Muslim community had grown beyond arabia penisula. Hence, it was necessary to have others who were not arabs have a book that they can memorize from. Hence, from the origin Book form of the Qur'an with Afsat, 4 accent based was produced, all to be known as Uthmani Qur'an. The accents were, Makka/Madina, Basra, Bagdad and Koffa accents. It was after this last development that all the uncompleted remnants were collected and burnt.


I hope I answered your questions. Please ask your questions.

@gbade.x: All of that is better than eating pork and all its by products. Its the worst kind of meat. You got my drift!

@Kimba: I believe that there is a verse in the New testament whereby it is stated that in the future, in the day of judgement, some christians will come to jesus, he will say that he does not know them, even as they say to him that they used to perform miracles on earth in his name? Could you confirm that and what is that all about. I am a muslim, so its just that i want to know.

@gbade.x: My 'think', is an expression of which I am not trying to sound very psycho religious in the sight of man. My soul, my heart and the whole of my being are for the pleasure of Allah the Almighty. My heart makes supplication to my Lord all the time. I am very sure of my condition, my brother. I am a very simple man, not arrogant but will defend my honor at all time. I am a Dove when i need to be and a hawk when it is necessary. I am neither meek nor overbearing. So how you living, young blood? Remember, by Allah, Christianity is not for me. Infact, I am working on all by bloodline on this matter.

@Havila: Stop being very arrogant. I swear by Allah Who is the Holder of my soul, if I do anything, on nairaland or anywhere else is for the pleasure of Allah. There is no importance attached to you, at least not by me. Any importance you may think that you have is within your sphere of friends and family members. I am neither. Rather I am a humanbeing, propagating Islam with every thing I have, my person and my wealth. You do not know me and I am sure that if you do, you will know that you are very insignificant, indeed. Some are kings, some are king makers. Allah has blessed me and you are not thought about, not by me in the least. However, if my involvement on this board is choking you, then hold tight, the ride will get real rough from now on. You see, I make my own rule as long as it is in conformity with the established ground rules. You can not frustrate me. You do not have any acutrimen to do it. Again, stop.

To all: I have tremendous freedom, yet I think I believe in God. God allows mankind to have extreme freedom, even that mistakes are made. He also gave us a way out to His mercy, even after a mountain of sins/wrong. Try Allah in the way of Islam for your taste of sweetness.

@Babyosisi: I saw the 2 coloquium between Ms Wafa Sultan and rhe Arab Muslim 'Scholars', on the Al Jezzirra Cable TV channels. Before I give my personal opinion, I will like to say that the interview is mostly her speech. Though justified, but it leads an objective mind to wonder, the subjectiveness of the presenter of this debate on the tube! It was only to project their own agenda. An object mind will not cut out in snippet what she says in a way that you can see that it is obvious that the responses to her were not allowed here.

Now, we in the Islamic worlds often debate in micro and macro dimensions the conditions of the muslims. I know Islam from the American perspective, since I was arelatively stillyoung when I migrated to America. I do not think, my frequent and always short visit to Nigeria will qualify me to be an expert on the total conditions of Nigerian Muslims. I remember though, as a young boy attending prayers, that in the morning and even prayers, where most people were not always in a hurry in their engrossement of life activities, matters that concerns the total wellness of the community as a whole were always on the table. Since there is no separation and standing apart of any life and community's essence of existence from Islam, the african proverb of it takes a village to raise a child was very strong. That is the same experience that I continue to have amongst Muslims in America.

What Ms. Sultan emphasised upon for the most part is that she hopes that the Arabs do get it together. I agreed with her and also hope that this hope will spread to all the disadvantaged pockets of the world, including the American natives and blacks and spanish and even the whites in the alleganeys and the Bayous and the coal mine quarters of American slums. The Muslim scholars argued with her that true justice is the absent of killing or oppression by any artificial barriers. Her argument that the Jews emerged from Holocaust, as if that they did not put up a fight or there was no other people fighting the evil of the Nazi is complete displaced her Ignorance: I read a book about 15 years ago, given to me by my Lawyer, Mr. Samuel NMI Panzaer in NYC. It was an account of a military struggle, which were many, in the ghetto of Warsaw, Cracow, etc, etc. Inshort, the jews never at no time laid down the effort to emancipate themselves. It is natural for people to fight oppression. You know it and i know it.

I disagree with her about the fact that Islam advocated the indiscrimate killing and it is done at a drop of a dime. Evidently, she even as an arab did not understand her own arab language and never was practicing Islam. Islam is not because one has a beard as a man, or wearing the hijab as a woman, it is in the HEART. Muhammad did not change the cloth or the exterior of the Makkans at first. He worked on their hearts. It was this that stopped fromburying their daughters alive, prefering sons over daughters. It was this that weaned them from making women as if they were like properties to be possessed. It was this that made the Muslims became the best in the world in their time , from the slumber that they were from the time of Ismail/Ibrahiim (AS) till Muhammad came on the scene. I can go on and on. It was Islam that developed Al Azhar University that is the mother of all Universities on the planet. Research it. Even Islam elevated Muslims of Mali's University of Timbuktu fame.

Now my agreement with Ms. Safa Sultan, is not because she presented what are not already known to the Muslims. No. She only reiterrated what we talk about all the time among ourselves. Unfortunately, Muslims become very complacant. We mix culture with Islam. There is Islamic Culture and then there is Arabic, African, Asiatic, or other cultures. The Arabs and others mix their ethnic cultures with Islamic culture. Every body tend to forget their religion when they are emotional, yet Islam prove the opposite as practiced by the Prophet and the first generation, etc.

In the near future I will provide stories that are checkable in the history of Islam, which will educate you about the the high standard of this religion. A Jewish scholar said the Qur'an is so thorough that the God that revealed it even tells the Muslims how to take a bath. This is Islam, everything else is separate and apart from it. Again injustice is injustice regardless of who perpetrates it!

@Babyosisi: Happy Thanks Giving. Now to your analogy of Fake Dollar versus real Dollar. Is this what your Bible has amounted to in your heart since the Qur'an says that has under gone metamorphosis? If you dispute this claim, then you should bring us the authentic copy of the original. It has to be an exact copy of the Original. You have to give it to us in the language or languages of its revelation. You have to give it to us in its exact text. Then we have to then examine whatever are the earliest offshoots in the many languages it is now written in. They must be exactly in wording. Then they must be exact in sentence. I am sure you do not have this and even your leadership and the webmasters do not have this.

Here is an acceptable analysis; The chrsitians , conveniently ignore the argument of the Jews that Jesus was no more that a Rabbi in their ethnic history. Why, because they believe that their religion was complete with Moses. They have lived in their history from Moses and up to John, son of Zacarriah, with allof the prophets falling in line in the path laid down by Moses. None had a new viewpoint until jesus came.

However when Jesus made his declaration of New advanced way, claiming that he was their expected Messiah, still advocating the same path and keeping the laws that Moses came with , there was a big problem. You will see that their is no practicing Jew who will say that any of the Old testament verse, refers to Jesus. You will know that that they are still waiting for their Messiah, this clearly shows that from the time of jesus to now, the Jews who are so smart, as per the statement of the Arab Woman Psychologist quite candidly argued with the Arab Muslim scholar on Al Jazzira. Yet, the Christian are quick to argue that the Old testament verses do not refer to Jesus. The stupidity then is between the jews and christians who use this same book to argue each other out of context.

The American agents from the Department of Justice and the people in the US Mint under the department of treasury do have eye for being able to tell us the difference between Fake and real Dollar, even when the fake is flawless that may even full the testing pen/machine that most Marchants have to prevent fake monies from their establishments. I do not want to educate you about money. Do you know that America is telling the world that North Korea is minting the US Dollars in order to fund its evil Nuclear ambition? How is this huge amount of money entering the world currency market? It is real to ordinary eyes, even to the expert it is real, but not the American government who know real from fake and do know that there is a minting of the fake currency currently in production, by the N. Koreans. Please pay attention: They did not say others are producing fake money, they say N. Korea. They say it is being passed around, which means people indeed organization, businesses, governments, perhaps are accepting these fake moneys. I am telling you something here. Please apply it to THe BIBLE.

@KAG and company: Is Physics the only descipline in human field of knowledge? Does human have unlimited knowledge in its history, analysis from a dt? Is it not true that human of yesteryears might argue against what we know as possibility or absolute today? Is is not more than likely that there will be a new knowledge 'considered more advance than today's best knowledge' tomorrow and beyond, if human continue to advance?

Finally, can you use Physics 'please no help from Biology or Chemistry or other scientific descipline' to explain the existence of what we know as human, today, 'a classification that you and me belong to', please hurry! If you can not do this, convincing all of us, without any doubt, please how can you then use it to explain the 'Superior Being that those who believe in His existence call GOD the Almighty'? Please think and do not give us the ambiquous song and dance you use in every entry you have made so far!

@Havila: The best verse of the Bible you are using to respond to me is Roman 12:2? But Roman is after Jesus was already lifted up. And it is a letter, a subjective opinion to some people. That is from God? Texturally and all and remain unchanged? Paul or who ever the author was was a third generation personality, who came after the generation of the companions of jesus.  Then you present two verses of Gospel 'according to' Luke. The operative phrase is in quotation above. In all, you did not use a verse directly from the messenger/prophet Jesus son of man (son of mary). How then do i expect you to have any verse directly from God the Almighty!

In the Qur'an, we see very clearly the speaker is God the Almighty Allah, directly. there is no ambiquity about it. I provided you one of the descriptions of believer. I also stated that there is a ton of them in the Qur'an which I did not mention. A believer has internal, external and behavioural description, among other characteristics.  Part of the quantumfied  value of believer is the unshaken believe and submission to God and going good for His pleasure.

It is ironic that you talked about the heart and you did not think that the heart's values are often seen outwardly. A person who has a good heart does good work. The work is an outward protection of the heart which is internal. A truly believing person has a good and believing soul being nourished in sweetness of faith, having a heart that is longing for deeds that are good and hoping to meet and receiving the mercy of God. Such a person when you see him/her, you will know that they are God conscious.

I remember Tai Solarin of the Mayflower in Ijebu Ikenne fame. He was not a person who pratcised and believed in any religion. However, he said that if he were to practised any religion, it would have been Islam. He spoke about the Salah, for example seems to provide an out let of exercise. The firmness in its orderliness, standing, bending, prostrating, etc.

Isa bin mariam (AS) of Qur'an is different from Jesus of the Bible. Isa never sinned. However Jesus fought, encourage others to prepare to fight. Jesus was confounded in temptation by the Satan, at least three times. Jesus was so weak because of hunger that he transgreed the nature of the fig tree, because it did not have a fruit for him to it. Even though it was not in the season of the fruiting of the fig. Jesus proved that he did not know everything because he should have known and would not have cursed the fig tree that was not providing fruit out of its season. Jesus was reluctant to accept his fate and responsibility before and during being nailed to the cross.

Isa bin mariam (AS) is in conformity to all the character of the quality of the office of the prophethood.

@Babyosisi: In my entry which you culled from, I just do not see how you can come to the conclusion that you came to.  Inshort, I did not admit that Muhammad killed or ordered anyone to kill any innocent soul, or avenge any death. If you have any proof to the contrary, please bring it forward and we will talk about it. Yes Islam/Muslim, under the leadership of Muhammad (AS), the messenger of God  engaged in wars. People were killed on both sides. There were times the muslims also lost wars as well. There were other times, that Muslims won wars without ever fighting or any shed of blood or lose of lives. Victory over makka will come to mind and yet there is another (The Battle of the Trenches, outside madina,if I remember correctly).

Now from your Bible, we find that from youth Jesus was a rabble rouser. Remember when he turned upside down the tables of the Exchangers. How old was he and how far along was his ministry? Remember, again that towrds the end of his ministry, he had COMMANDED his followers, Peter, Mark, Luke, etc (The 12 Apostles, a group that never included Saul/Paul at any time), to sell their cloaks and buy Swords instead, istruments of warfare. What was the purpose of the injuctions, except to prepare for conflicts.

In sincerity, Jesus was not the meek individual nor did he encourage his followers to be as the picture later developed by the Bible writers.

I read your other entries where you you alluded to my quoting the Bible erronously. My sister in humanity, Allah has ordained it that the writers of the Bible, regardless of how many councils set up to rewrite it, there will always that amount of it left to support the claims of Qur'an by it.  By Allah I see what you have not seen yet from your Bible.

Your above quote of the Qur'anic verses are completely wrong. The writer(s) are not even close, in textural content, nor in their summaries. I have Qur'an in front of me and i made references. My dear, do the same. Have a good one. All of us are almost behaving like family members, for real. That's nice.


Again you continue to go to the websites where lying is the theme of their operations. It will be better to research the Qur'an before you accept the information from thesites. We call these people of the sites Mutamushrikuun. They have evil knowledge. the reward will be evil. Can they list the names of the 600 battles and conflicts and times in the madina era. It seemed as if your people already agreed that there was no conflicts started by the muslims in the Makka era. Now any Yoruba will tell you that the expression ' Awa la wan be', starting of with prural pronoun does not mean it involves more than one person. It simply means the speaker is powerful or having some kind of dignitary value attach to its pwrson. If human can use this 'we' pronoun, then is it restricted from god to use the same 'we' to emphasis His Important. Tell us where we can find, from Islamic History Books where Muhammad (AS) and his companions (RA) killed Jews and/or Christian as your persons have indicated. We, in islam only use your Books, to talk about your religion in the light of the Qur'an and Sunnah. We do not have the latter day Apostle/saints, the equalent of Paul.

@Havila: My saying that the Muslims are poorly attached to Islam, their religion isto serve as a reminder to me and muslims about our poor observance of Islam. If Muslims are strongly and sincerely observing their religion, you will find peace and transquillity on earth. So your heaving a sigh of relief is presumptious and really lightfooted, if you know the benefit of having truly believing Muslims in your mist.

In the Qur'an, Allah says in Suratul Fath (Victory Chapter 48, verse 29) that the the Believers have a trace of submission on their face, and in the unadulterate books of old before Qur'an they were described very clearly in them. When I learnt about this believer's quality in Qur'an, I began to pay attention to the faces of people, immediately after the Salah. I notice, always the calmness on the face and in general the Muslims are younger looking with more radiant skin, free of skin deseases! Havila, do your research and do not make any assertion that is at best full of emotional irrationality, but alway without substance. I am not attacking you, but I am removing the weak foundation and the footing of your statement about Islam. You should look up the description of true believer in the Qur'an.  Think about it.

Earlier, you indicated that you have material source that provides proof that the Qur'an has 'ever' been changed  in sentences and words. Please provide title and author. Further you had used the dead sea Scroll as your yardstick to talk about the complete authenicity of the Bible. If I follow your statement, then I must ask you that does the Dead Sea scroll contain every word, verse, chapter, book in the Bible, without antthing missing therein. Everything from the beginning of genesis to the end of Revelation. If revelation is the last book. If then the Dead sea scroll does not contain everything, then your statement, falls on its face, again, unless you can give us a better explanation to prop it up. Do you believe the Old testament as much as you believe the new . I am just curious.

The fact that Muhammad was an illiterate, as it was your statement. It is true that he was an illiterate, but do not you think that his Book that he claimed that was revealed to him is more than a work of a common illiterate, who has no special support. Indeed a support that is extra ordinary, a Supernatural power/support at that, seeing very clearly the completeness of this work. Yet he was not arrogant and try to usurp the fame of it all, giving all credit to his Lord, who (whom) he calls Allah? Has there been such an illiterate with such a phenomenon in the whole history of man, before jesus and after jesus, other than Muhammad (AS, to allof the prophets), alone? If you look at all the prophets, they have the same characteristics as Muhammad; all men, all from noble families among their people, all were shephards, all wore beard and all were shy people, almost to bashfulness.

You must know that all of the Qur'an was not revealed in makka and the cave you mentiond is in Makka and still there even as we speak. Further, there were witnesses to the majority of the piece meal revelations. They included male and female, many and few, day and night.

Finally, the Qur'an says that your Bible is corrupted. I had provided the verses in earlier entries. Your Bible complains that the pens of the scribes have changed the words in the Bible from its original places. These two statements mean the same thing. The Qur'an is right and the Bible proves it, very directly. Doesnt it?

@Babyosisi: The History of the Islam of Muhammad (AS), is very complex. You have to have strong heart, immensed in true belief. This is the foundation of altimate success. Babyosisi, your christian website giving desitation about Islam's war is a pure source of confusion. I see why that any one with a good soul and a pure heart will leave Christianity upon seeing the shameless lies the people of knowledge from it tell against Islam.

You should ask this people at the site to give you any fight that the muslims got involved in before badr, which occured in Ramadan of 2AH. Muhammad (AS) and his companions (RA), spent 13 years in makka, being oppressed to the point that some went on minor migrations to Ethiopia, seeking the protection of a 'Just' Christian King, who later died as a Muslim. Tell me, when in the 13 years in Makka did the muslims race any Cain?

Ask this liers at the site, if they could tell you when was the first incursion and what was it known by. They will tell you nothing, because, there was none, until Badr. The reason for Badr was not that the Muslims were itching fr war. The muslims wanted the Makkans to compensate them for the properties which left behind in Makka. I am sure you will understand that even a lamb push against the wall may just turn around to bite, even without the Incisors and Canines!

Read Suratul Anfal Chapter 8, known as the Spoil of war, verses 5-19 will be sufficient . From it you will find that the Muslims who were fasting were reluctant warriors, but God the Almighty has ordained this fight for them. The time had came for them to become fearless and to have strong hearts. If you read the books on Islamic wars, you will find that in Badr, the Muslims were located in a place where it was possible for them to have total control of the water from the Well of Badr. But the Muslims even showed tremendous mercy on their enemies by allowing them to fetch enough water according to their needs.

People fight person to person, in those days. The battle of Badr was no different. Ali bin Abi Talib was the first to step out to fight for Islam. He was a young man, but he had a great belief, not wavering and never compromising. Compromising in the matter of religion is unIslamic. Muhammad (AS), prayed to Allah to defeat the Makkans in the blatant displace of arrogance and hatred for Islam and Muslims (Those who do not associate anything with Allah in all things including worshi). The Almighty revealed to Muhammad to throw a handful of dirt in the direction of this disbelieving people. Babyosisi, you need to read the story and you will see that Allah is the Only One that can honor or debase a soul, a people a nation. Let us wait and we will see the decision of the Most Powerful, alway complete in His Majesty.

About Khalifah Yaazid, this is not my problem. His action about killing the grandson of the Noble Prophet is a fullfilment of the Hadith of Myhammad about this and others.Muhammad loved those grandsons and i will leave Yaazid's case to his Lord. My case to my Lord, directly without going through anyone. Tell me in the 23 years of the prophethood, let me know how many people that Muhammad Killed or ordered killed, then I will tell you their evil deeds.Today, the psudo kindness of the Christian leadership around the world, show me any good that they did without a selfish underpinnings,then i will tell you many blatant evil actions that even you in your nature can not see or feel that you need not confess this to your friends or fellow human. You must never forget anybody can have their own twist on any particular issue. The Muslims who are claiming that anybody can be killed unjustly and using ethnic hatred as the reason do not have any Islam in them or they are hiding their real religious position. God declares that you shouldn't be unjust to anyone because of your dislike for their behavour or who they are. Nor should you be unjust to them because of your hatred of their hatred of you. All that I have said are in Qur'an and Hadirh.

Unfortunately, most muslims are no closely attached to Islam. No wonder that we are in this terrible condition. However, we will continue to seek improvement. The office of Khalifah of Islam will be occupied again. God Himself will have the office alive again, InshaAllah. You will see in Suratul Fayh (Victory), where Allah confirms to His messenger that Muhammad and his band will enter Makka, victoriously. It happened without a single drop of blood.

Think about this.

@Havila: I sent you a respone, yesterday, but unfortunately, to a wrong thread: Why I am not a Christian anymore. Anyway, you need to know that your entry above lacks real substance. You can not suceed, as an enemy of Islam. Infact, if the whole world were to gether up and declare its enemity against this religion, they will indeed fail and in the day of judgement will have their due justice.

Iwill concur with you that you can be an enemy to the Muslims. This is possible that you maysuceed in it, at least in an artificial sense. You may hold this view and archieve worldly success. However, the reality of it is that for this artificial reason, you may never enter Islam. I know, today, muslims are viewed with a negative eye, because of many reasons.  However, the justice of consciously rejecting Islam is a certain reality that will definately come in the day of judgement.

From your entries, one may thing that it is the west or the christian nations that invented FREEDOM, etc, and it is just a recent phenomenon! Let say in the last 1000 years. In my entry to you yesterday, I indicated that Constitution and covenants that covers the whole arrays of people, ethnically, religiously, was what Muhammad (AS) established in Madina. That was over 400 years before the generous 1000 years I indicated for your 'people' You need to read about Muhammad and stop the miraged Ostrich head buried in the sand phenomenon. It just ain't so.

Your concept is you versus us ideology. Even the white people who brought Christianity to Africa, are not as this hard. It seems as if your world is different from what the Muslims are part of. The world is accepting Islam daily. Whether you like it or not. Islam will be victorious. If you live long enough, you will witness it with your own eyes and hears the call of prayers , even in your own bloodline, InshaAllah. You speak of semetic as if it is the Jews exclusive property. No, even the Yorubas and Igbos, etc, are ethnic semites. Indeed all Arabs, by bloodline and all muslims by religion are semites.

I am sure you have your view point and loves your religion, do not creat disaster for yourself. You and all mankind can not defeat Islam. Do not let your hatred turn you to a person who closes his eyes from all kind of goodness. God says in the Qur'an that those who are enemies of Islam and the Prophet Muhammad (AS) are enemies of Allah, His Angels and the believers. The Curse of Allah, The Angels, Jinns and humans are upon them and in the day of Judgement they will have a grevious punishments. Havila, you and me have no power over the decision of God. We were born and we will surely die. God will raise us up for Judgement. Look at the Sky. Regardless of how far man can go in space with or the machines, spacecrafts and all, the first heaven will always be unreachable. Yet the seven heavens, layered on top of one another are still part of the world. The hereafter does not begin until after the place of the "Lote Tree."

It has been described to us that the size of the whole universe with all the galaxies, etc to the size of the first heaven, is like the size of a ring from a finger that is dropped in Sahara Desert, looking at the desert from the space, trying to find the ring! Each heaven below the one directly above it is in the same spatial and volume relation as describe between our earth and all the galaxies to the first heaven. You think that the Creator of all of this, is in need of a son and unable to forgive and show mercy, except He has to first punish an innocent man by the hand of those who would meter tremendous punishment on him. Some even believe that this God came down to learn the nature of man. When it is this same Almighty that created and gave them the nature in the first place! You think the heaven created by the Lord of the world should be over and above The Majestic and Most Powerful? It is impossible.

Most people think that the office of the Caliphate will not happen. It will happen. Give it time. For 99 years, the Christians under their several crusades did not allow a single prayer to be made in masjid Aqsa Sherif, in Quds, Palestine. Today, prayers are offered, again. No one can fight God, no one and be victorious. Freedom is not a christian thing, but all humans. You as a christian should encourage your brethrens, the world to all the muslims to practice their religion as it is in Qur'an and Sunnah, the way Muhammad (AS) practiced and led his several 100,000 companions (RA), while he was still alive. There was no prophet that had such a large followers while alive among his people.

@ Babyosisi: If anyone kills any soul without justification, whether the community was strong enough to condemn the act or not, the decision is with Allah, alone. The issue is that it is not acceptable to oppress or kill any whil ethat act is really an act that is unjust, whether you are an entity, a group, a country, an ethnic group, using your wealth, your force of arm or other comparative advantage. Evil is evil. You know it when you see it. You may be weak that you can do anything to change it, even afraid that you can even express your desention, but your heart should hate it.

@Belloti: You speech above, reminds me of the response of Jafar bin Abdullah (RA), I think that was the name of this Companion, who was chosen as the Governor of Yemen. When Prophet (AS) asked him how he would rule/judge the Yemenis, he said in answering by The Book of Allah. Allah's Messenger asked him, what if the solution is not clearly direct from the Book of Allah, (for example, you see very directly that Allah says make Salah. This is direct.)? Jafar says then i will go to the Sunnah. Again, prophet Muhammad (AS) ask if you do not see a direct solution from the sunnah (This may be because of limited knowledge of the totality of the Qur'an and Sunnah. There is no single Muslim that has complete knowledge of both), then what? Jafar answered, I will use my mind (Comprising of the Brain and the Heart, as long as it is withing Islamic Jurispudence. Muhammad (AS) then raised his voice Thinking Allah the Almighty for blessing the Ummah with people who have Independent thinking.

I thank Allah for giving you wisdom. Alhamdulillah. Salaam.

@Babyosisi: I laugh after reading your response above. You do not worship paul, yet he has more imput than Jesus on the New Testament and it was he that developed the Trium/Trinity doctrine. Yet you worship Jesus and not God since God and Jesus are not the same. Is it not written in the Bible that you must not worship God and marmor?

@Havila: Thank you for your response. I for one agree that 'politically correctness' is unacceptable and it is a sign of hypocracy. We both agree on something. i also have realised that I need to delete my age from my personal data, so that we can both annonymous. Now to both of you and babyosisi, I thank you again for being firm on your belief, supporting each other as appropriate.

Muhammad (AS) said that those who are good before accepting Islam, are the same that are good in Islam. What this means is that you become improved as you pracice Islam more consistently. You see this amongst the American black, the caribbeans, etc. Some used to to be hardcore, now are the best of their communities and good citizenries of their countries. I know and they all say it is ISLAM that remolded them. It changes heart. For me, I used to trade bank papers, big time, having accounts in the top world banks. But when I heard about Riba and its consequences, I stopped. Zina too, was like a second nature to most people. It is Islam that got rid of its love from the breast of man.

Now to your response, Havila, I like you. Afterall, you always have something to say, a verse here, a verse there, to support your view point. I remember that I read 'The Drummer Boy" by Nkwesi. It was a good and interesting story. But it was a fiction. That is the reality of the Book. Your last entry like a conclusion of a thesis/experiment. You fail to provide apparatus, procedure, observations, inferences, etc, etc. If any muslims were to present islam like that, one should ask the Question, proof it.

Today you have the exact recitation of Qur'an as it was recited, the very first time, during the life of Muhammad. All the essential places and structures are intact and available. The Ka'aba for example, is a place where the hunter and hunted of all aminals come to circle/circumbulate, yet they will never attack each other, nor is ever any droppings permitted! Ask your associates in medicine. Some of them are muslims. You have Zam Zam water quenching the thirst of Million arount the world. The Hajj is the first United nation of the world.

I agree with you that you are strong, but on what ground, Reality or Memorex?

@Babyosisi: If you read them,then you would have been able to approach the subject with cogent points. You did not completely read my advice to you, in that the second part encourages you to give me your finds. And please do not tell me that its the ol same oh, same oh. That will be a capout.

By the way what is the Cr book that you quoted so much from? Was that written by Jesus or a prophet before Jesus. Please do not tell me to take what happened after Jesus, specifically the 'Yabis" of Saul/Paul.

See, I can be funny too. It is not street, so it may be dry to you. I need to put more humff to it.

@ Havila: Are you for real or this is comedy for you? The issue of corruption is staring at you in the Bible: Your says that the Pen of the scribes have entered and change things from its proper places. I do not need to direct you to the exact place in your book.You know it but may choose to ignore it. You need to prove the Bible itself wrong and then lowly people like me who are not christian. Tell the holy spirit to explain it.

Muhammad (AS), speaking to Jews and Christians about is Islam was to invite them into it. It was not to compromise, because he did not compromise with anyone, neither the people of the books nor the Pagans. Ifact his follwoers (RA) who migrated to Ethiopia did not compromise in the face of potential capitulation! They told the King Al Nagash that Jesus was not God nor son of God, but was a honored prophet/Servant of the Almighty, born of virgin birth.

You need to read the history of the Alnagash ofEthiopia who later died on his way to meet the Prophet. Muhammad made what is known as Salatul Ghaib on him after his death. You will also know that Muhammad followed the law and commandment of his Lord; not partial in any way. I guess this goes to the Comforter clear quality. Muhammad did not make salatul Janazzah on his on Uncle, Abi talib who never became Muslim, even though they love each other so much!

Your claim that Muhammad (AS) resulted to convertion by force or be killed is untrue. Maybe you mistakenly took Muhammad's era for the Spanish Inquisition or the whole European Crusade. I guess the madness of "CRUSADE" is still going on in the mind and the actions of the leadership of the offshoot of 'ROME". If Muhammad have resulted into kiling asyou said, please give us the time period in makka or madina. We find that when Makka was conquered, every inhabitant received complete and general anmesty, including the woman who ordered the killing of and eating raw the heart and liver of Hamza. In Madina, we realised that there was a constitution to live by. This constitution covered every citizen and did not discriminate against anyone, Muslims and others, alike. This is to show you that Constitution was not a new thing in Islam, but unfortunately, the Muslims are now the people doing against it.

If you have God, why toying with His creation. We have a statement in Islam: Why worshipping the creation when you can worship the Creator.

I ask again, which is First, God the Almighty or Jesus?

@Babyosisi: Read my entry, first and even the sites that i have directed you to in my past entries. When you do this,response to me with some information from them, then I will go to your website. Its a 2 way street. This is marriage in training; you can master it and no one dominates it, but you do your best at all time.

@Babyosisi: Then, in other threads, let us not go off from the Core subject/Topic. But then, you can still approach my entry her, or make a new thread for it and lets talk about it. Take good care of yourself and have a great time in the coming holidays. I do not eat Turkey as an animal because of my family's involvement in animal husbandry in Nigeria. So I may just eat what I normally would eat on and get involved in in any regular Thursday.