₦airaland Forum

Enigma:
I'm afraid you tend to make some rather sweeping and misinformed (maybe even uninformed) statements; even the scholars and academics that you want to rely on for this statement will not put it in those terms! You really could and should do better.

Not so, enigma.
http://bible.org/article/authorship-second-peter
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html

Would you like more?
It's hardly a sweeping or uninformed statement.

frosbel:
Sure , it opened your eyes to a LIE and blinded you to the TRUTH !!!!

Your cheap insults make me wonder if you're even sober when you post.
Read what answersingenesis has to say about inadequate arguments.
Granted, there are lots and lots of really big words there, but you'll get the gist.
Maybe.

OLAADEGBU:
Did you understand the link at all? Where on this thread have I used those type of arguments? Your eyes need be opened to see the gospel truth.

Do you read what you write, OLAADEGBU?
Have you forgotten the discussion about the speed of light?
Did you not understand the link's allusion to silly dino arguments?

And while argument by cartoon is amusing, it lacks, substance.
Here's something for those reading the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Clm6nlWxzc

frosbel:
They are not vald in your opinion.

But for those who have read both books with a substantial amount of history and with God's wisdom , can easily understand what the Man is implying in his beautifully laid out video.

If you want to start defending the Quran , then covert and start wearing their Hijab, then we will trully know that you consider their book as holy

More abuse?
And coupled this time with a strawman.
How original you are. Not.
You really can't get beyond a forum bully attitude, can you?
If you'd bothered to read my posts, you'd see I'm not 'defending' any religion.
I'm calling you out on having posted up an ill-considered and deeply flawed video.
Do you understand the difference?

frosbel:
^^^
You are as blind as a bat when it comes to religion.

It is apparent that your knowledge of the truth is nil and therefore arguing with you will be akin to trying to reason with a non-believer.

Keep throwing your toys out of the pram and raging against God , your deep and unhindered folly will soon find you out.

And yet more raving abuse.
I wonder how that poster who calls frosbel 'passionate' feels when he reads this sort of thing.

I wonder when frosbel will learn that argument by insult only shows just how weak his reasoning is.

thameamead:
, all the footage i have seen of rebels locking up innocent african migrants or executing them and accusing them of bn mercenaries, no evidence of have bn produced of any sort of weapons, most african migrants use Libya as a transit to libya, Gaddafi use to lock them up in appalling conditions in those days, i set up a forum about it last year, it's in the travel section and its under "Nigerians languishing in jail in Libya, the "U" in UN stands for useless, they are not interested in any rescusing any one, they are an organsastion that answers to the West. nobody cares about african migrants standed in libya or innocent african migrants bn executed or beaten to death in Libya, Libya is about the West getting their dirty and filty hands on Libya's oil. i would advise these people to go back to Nigeria, Italy is no better, there are no jobs for them unless they want to go into prostitution or selling drugs, i would also advise them to watch Suprising Europe on Al -Jazeera on Mondays @10.30pm, they need to see how africans with no papers are struggling with no permanent homes.

True about the illegal immigrants in Europe.
Executions? Could you point out the footage, please!

Jesus told the rich man to sell his goods and divide them among the poor.
Nothing about 'prophesying' over money.

Welcome, jillbaby.
All the best in your endeavours!

Log for Monday
Water:
2.1 litres

exercise:
full side planks, eveing
12 each side

food.
Salad-
2 tomatoes, diced
50 grammes lamb's lettuce
1 beetroot, diced
1 onion, sliced
1 carrot, slivered
2 Tablespoons olive oil
salt, herbs

2 slices pumpernickel bread
50 grammes low fat cheese

divided in 2 and eaten for lunch and supper.
100 grammes sliced fresh radishes
1/2 glass good red wine

Thanks for the timeline, HISchild.
I appreciate your effort to post that.

To my mind, it seems important to make sure the seal is authentic and not a modern hoax.
Off to see what BAR has to say about this.

True faith is worthy of everyone's respect.

Twisting the truth and misrepresenting facts, not so much.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/arguments-we-dont-use

Do go over this link from answersingenesis, Eben2.
It certainly opened my eyes and I post it so others can read it.

You refer to the personal abuse you've heaped on me?
I've addressed the OP.
The claims of the video are simply not valid.
Why even bother posting such a thing up?

This is a cruel scam perpetrated with cold reading, hot reading and preying on the vulnerable.

Here's an example of how this is done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP7Ys9ocTk

rezzy:
The money collected was not for the pastor, its for the church. ,

Do you think scammers' tactics are appropriate in a church?

You DO go on, OLAADEGBU!

It is good that you did a little bit of research using your favoured google to find out that it was on the web at least you got to do some "work" instead of just relying on being spoonfed.

Of course this stuff is on the web.
That's why it's so amusing you do cut and pastes without citing the source.

I've noticed you favour answersingenesis.
Very out of date, you know.

Edited to include one of the more intersting answersingenesis articles.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/arguments-we-dont-use

, Even one instance of using a faulty argument can lead someone to write off creationism as pseudoscientific and dismiss creationists as shoddy researchers—or charlatans!

A final reason for avoiding flawed arguments is that it leads to faulty thinking. ,

edited to include the list itself.
You may find some things there you recognise!

uments.)
Arguments that should never be used

Moon dust thickness proves a young moon.
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall. (If so, how could Adam and Eve have eaten and digested their food that they were told to eat before the Fall?)
NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s “long day” (Joshua 10) and Hezekiah’s sundial movement (2 Kings 20).
There are no beneficial mutations.
Darwin recanted on his deathbed.
Woolly mammoths were flash frozen during the Flood catastrophe.
If we evolved from apes, apes shouldn’t exist today. (In an evolutionary worldview, mankind did not evolve from apes but from an apelike ancestor, from which both humans and apes of today supposedly evolved.)
No new species have been produced.
Ron Wyatt has found much archeological proof of the Bible.

Arguments that should be avoided (because further research is still needed, new research has invalided aspects of it, or biblical implications may discount it)

Evolution is just a theory. (“Theory” has a stronger meaning in scientific fields than in general usage; it is better to say that evolution is just a hypothesis or one model to explain the untestable past.)
Microevolution is true but not macroevolution. (People usually mean that we see changes within a kind but not between kinds; however, the important distinction is that we observe changes that do not increase the genetic information in an organism.)
There was a water vapor canopy surrounding earth before the Flood.
Mitochondrial Eve is only 6000 years old.
The Gospel is in the stars.
The Japanese trawler Zuiyo Maru caught a dead plesiosaur near New Zealand. (Later research showed it to be a basking shark.)
The earth’s axis was vertical before the Flood. (Genesis 1:14 reveals seasons did exist prior to the Flood.)
Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.
Stars are closer than we are led to believe.
There was no rain before the Flood. (Genesis 2:4–6, a passage commonly used to support this, is speaking of Creation Week, prior to the creation of man. It may not be wise to assume this projects into the future until the Flood.)
The speed of light has decreased over time.
There are no transitional forms. (It would be better to say there are no intermediates between two different kinds. We find variant transitional fossils for animals within the same kind—horse to a horse for example but that is expected in a biblical worldview.)

Common misconceptions/misunderstandings

Earth’s division in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25) refers to catastrophic splitting of the continents. (How could the mountains of Ararat in Genesis 8:4 have existed on Day 150 of the Flood for the Ark to land in, if the Eurasian, African, and Arabian plates had not collided to form these mountains yet?)
The Septuagint records the correct Genesis chronology. (Methuselah would have lived 17 years after the Flood without being on the Ark. This is a problem.)
The phrase “science falsely so called” in 1 Timothy 6:20 (KJV) refers to evolution.
Man could only live to 120 years as per Genesis 6:3. (Then how could many of Noah’s descendants outlive 120 years, including Abraham? This makes better sense as a countdown to the Flood.)
The Intelligent Design Movement is a Christian movement.
Women have one more rib than men.
Archaeopteryx is a fraud.
The Geneva Bible Society used Voltaire’s house to produce Bibles. (This has never been verified.)

[Editor’s note: For your convenience, links are given to some articles presently on the website that discuss the topic. We hope in the months ahead to readdress many of these issues and provide the most current thinking on each. During this process, we will be expanding these lists to include more items. Check back for updates.]

Pastor AIO:
In other words many have died over such Trivia.  The bible might be trivia but is the lives of the people that have died over it trivial?  

Of course so much of this rests on how individuals choose to interprete the bible.  If you are looking for essential teachings that are unaffected by scribal errors, then you are in a different boat from those that take the bible to be literal inerrant truth.  
We will ignore the fact that those essential doctrines are derived (by interpretation) from the actual literal words in the bible.

There are other threads here, Pastor AIO, where people are encouraged to deny science because the bible is literally 'inerrrant'.
How many children have been tortured and mutilated in 'exorcisms' promoted by pastors?
How is it  man-lover people are ostracised and persecuted in a modern society?

These are things advocated by those who claim the bible is 'inerrant'.


[quote author=Indirah? link=topic=751616.msg9090281#msg9090281 date=1315306040],  but i think you will be very hard pressed to find ANYBODY who beliefs in that kind of inerrancy these days. ,[/quote]Would it were true and may God hear you, Indirah!

edited to add-
Indirah, watch that OP video.
I think you'll agree it's really quite over the top.

Please accept my best wishes for a special day and for your future happiness.

[quote author=Indirah? link=topic=751616.msg9089837#msg9089837 date=1315302720]All that I will ask you is simple - let us be CLEAR on what we mean by corruption. As Enigma has asked, is a scribal error or an omission a corruption? I don't think so.

No serious person doubts that there have indceed been errors, omissions, mistranslations, etc
I think the main issue that should concern a serious (not pedantic) mind is whether such issues are of any consequence in overall biblical doctrine.

If they are not, then the critic is being trivial and pedantic

IMHO the questoion you posed about the last words of Jesus is both trivial and pedantic because his last words are of no consequence to overall bible dovctrine. what exactly does it matter if this or that writer heard or transcribed this or that words first or last? It means NADA, and shock me that u will make an argument out of biblical corruption by refering to such trivia

If you want to show corruption in the bible, what you should do is to show the OP that the bible has been so corrupted, mistranslated, added to, etc, that its ESSENTIAL TEACHINGS have become LOST AND CONTRADICTORY

and if u dont do that then harpoing on about such trivia as what was his last word is just childish IMHO[/quote]Of I understand your point.
I tried to make it clear my response was to that OP video.
Have you seen it?

Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Harping on trivia?
I disagree, Indirah.
Plenty people have been persecuted because they refused to believe the bible to be inerrant, you know.
Plenty of people have denied themselves medical treatment and education because they believe the bible to be inerrant.

Okija_juju -
Thanks for posting up that list of 'tactics'.
I hope it will make readers aware of how the unscrupulous 'work' a congregation.

here's an intersting source for learning about dinosaurs:
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2010/05/tracking-the-origin-of-dinosaurs/

Is the Smithsonian good enough for you, OLAADEGBU?

a good place to start the story of the dinosaurs is with the mass extinction that occurred about 251 million years ago at the end of the Permian. This event, the worst mass extinction in the history of life on Earth, drastically cut down the diversity of the dominant terrestrial vertebrates (such as synapsids, a group containing our ancestors and creatures more closely related to us than to reptiles) and allowed the surviving groups to radiate in a changed landscape. Among the groups to evolve in the wake of the disaster were the first archosaurs, and these were the earliest representatives of the group to which crocodiles, pterosaurs, dinosaurs and numerous other lineages of reptiles belonged.

As you can see, there is no question of dinos and crocodiles being considered 'of the same kind', as their families divided millions of years before Noah ever floated his boat.

https://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4889/dinosaurevolutionarytre.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


And the mass extinction referred to here is, of course, considerably previous to the one which took out the dinosaurs.

Viewed as a whole, the story of dinosaurs is a tale of how life on Earth reacts to mass extinctions. Dinosaurs rose to prominence because of mass extinctions, yet most of them (the exception being their bird descendants) succumbed to another ecological catastrophe 65 million years ago.

Back to work!
How much easier it is to disciplined when one is quietly at home on hols!
Anyway.

Log for Monday.
water-
1.9 litres

exercise-
none!!!!

food-
2 nofat yoghurts
50 grammes crude almonds
150 grammes gnocchis with tomato sauce (oh, Italian food!)
50 grammes lofat cheese Maasdamer
1 1/2 glasses of good red wine

The good news- a pair of jeans I couldn't pull the zip up completely at the beginning of my war on fat now need a belt to stay up!
A new blouse fit well in the upper arms, no more 'sausage' effect there!
Yes!
Eating less andexercising really work!

Bible not corrupt, Obalende?
Tell me.
How does the Gospel according to Mark end?
At what verse?

Passion is one thing, twisting the truth is another, MyJoe.
That OP video was a showcase of hypocrisy and I wasn't going to let its falsehoods go unchallenged.

As for the posters who have actually tackled the reality of NT inconsistencies, I for one applaud your efforts and honesty.
They made for excellent reading and reflection.

Possibly, queensmith, but the point is that congregations can be fleeced by the unscrupulous.
And it happens all the time, as we all know.

OLAADEGBU:
Is that how you answer questions from your teachers, by posting wiki links?

Are you ignorant enough to think you can compare a Uni course with posting on a forum dedicated to a general readership?
Get serious.
Wiki is an excellent jumping off point to self education.
I've used wiki extensively here precisely because it is available 24/7 to everyone.

OLAADEGBU:
I will be happy if you can refer me to where I have done this so that I can make amends.

Just on this thread?
For starters, the cartoons aren't sourced.
I've pointed an example of where you do this on another thread, but for clarity, I stick to exaples on this thread alone.

OLAADEGBU:
In 2 Peter 3:5–6 Peter is criticizing uniformitarianism; the concept that the rate of geological change today has always been the same: “

"All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."   

In opposing this view, Peter reminds his readers that scoffers deliberately ignore two events: the Creation and the Flood, which were unique in earth history.

Peter refers to this same Flood of Noah’s day in 1 Peter 3:20 and 2 Peter 2:4–5. 

In fact, there is no reference to a Luciferian Flood anywhere in Scripture, If you disagree can you point it out?

Where did you get this from?
I know.
But do the other readers?
It's from here, word for word:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v5/n4/closing-gap

In any case, it's well accepted 2 Peter is a forgery.
I've pointed this out before.
2 Peter has no place in adiscussion about dinosaurs.

Phat Booty- Get to a doctor!

Rust, I think you may have missed Evil Brain's point- it's about preventing pelvic infections.
My point about hand washing before sex, both in company or solitary, is for the same reason.
Morality has nothing to do with condoms or washing your hands.
Avoiding pelvic infections is the priority here!

nsodo- This is very interesting.
Could you post up the studies which show these herbal remedies are effective?

Ah, here's an example of what I meant by cut and paste posting without sourcing.
OLAADEGBU wrote:

The Bible claims that God destroyed the earth and the creatures inhabiting it in the worldwide Flood.  Nineteenth-century geologists argued that rock layers and the fossils found in them were formed as sediments were deposited slowly, but today geology confirms that many rock layers were deposited catastrophically, burying fossils within only minutes or hours.

So if the Bible wins hands down in every earthly thing we can test, why don’t people trust what it says? The issue is not the truth of Scripture, but vain reasoning and “willful ignorance” (Romans 1:21; 2 Peter 3:5).

without posting the source of this pronouncement.
An unwary reader might have thought OLAADEGBU was writing somthing original, something he's actually studied.
But that isn't the case!
It's lifted from here, word for word:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yQCdT80EyiIJ:www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v6/n2/scientific-accuracy+Nineteenth-century+geologists+argued+that+rock+layers+and+the+fossils+found+in+them&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a

As you see, OLAADEGBU  hid the source of his post.
Intentional deception or intellectual laziness?
I let the reader decide!

Hi, OLAADEGBU and frosbel,

My, my but it's interesting to see how threatened  you are by Wiki.
I can't understand why you feel so threatened by wiki- it's a fast and above all, available resource for the general reader.
As I've pointed out many times,
Wiki is the FIRST, not LAST place to go for information.

I use it often when posting to a forum of general readership because it's clear and easy to understand.
At the end of each article, and this is especially true of the more interesting articles, there are tonnes of excellent links, for those who want to learn more.

As an online resource, it's difficult to beat wiki.
But with my usual disclaimer- it's a beginning point.

So what is wrong with citing a source available to everyone 24/7 who reads and posts here?
Surely it's more honest than cutting and pasting  articles and posting them up without giving their provenance, don't you think?

One almost has the impression you people want to keep the readership here ignorant.
I hope that's not the case!

So, OLAADEGBU, I'd like to think you and your compere have had your go at bashing wiki.

Let's go back to dinos!
And since you've brought it up, geology, too!

Frosbel, the last true Christian, eh?
What a whited sephulcre you are!
You start a thread claimingthe Nt is incorrupt, you ignore the evidence this is not the case, and now you sulk.
Do you really think your God is served by this approach?

Does it matter, MyJoe?
My question is important in the context of the OP, my religious beliefs, not.

I hope you're not posting up copyrighted material, Godprophet!

Could you give a source for that information, please, HISchild?

OLAADEGBU:
Wiki educated graduate.  You want me to waste my time on articles you have not bothered to read yourself?  If you have read them why do you find it difficult to answer my question?

An interesting accusation.
You have something to back it up other than your own delusion?
I did answer your question telling you where to start reading basic informationon a subject you claim to be interested in.
Also, of course I post links to help others learn.

You, on the other hand, quote internet sources without referencing their source.
That isn't good etiquette, you know.

I'm not sure which is funnier, OLAADEGBU's argument by cartoon or this reply.

OLAADEGBU:
The Infinite Creator of cause! , In the Bible we are told that God has given His word to men to write down so we can know how everything came to be.  The Holy Scriptures, which is God's Word, even though it was written down by men, tells us repeatedly that it is the Word of God.  This is God who was certain of what He was saying, and who is Omnipresent.  He is not like a human being who can tell lies or doesn't know everything or that changes his mind or story or who wasn't there.  I have faith in God who was there and is certain of what He has said and that makes my faith certain.

Well, what you've done here is actually a perfect circular argument, in case you didn't know that.

Tell me, do you really believe the stars hang in the firmament?
That the Sun revolves around the earth?

OLAADEGBU:
This is the Strawman Fallacy.

Actually, no. I'm following the OT there. Interesting you see how out of place the claim is. Check out your OT again if you don't believe me.

Do know what a theory is?
Did you know that Gravity is a theory?
And why?

OLAADEGBU:
If you don't believe in Newton's second law of gravity as it relates to humans then try jumping down from a tower block since you believe its just a theory.

One thing is Newton's Laws and another is the Theory of gravity. Look it up before indulging in what is a classic strawman argument.
You know what a strawman argument is?
Here's a handy definition for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Did you know that Jericho has been excavated to remains dated to 9,000 BC?
And the remains show no evidence of a flood?

OLAADEGBU:
Faulty appeal to authority.

You are joking, of course. How many links would you like on the subject?
For starters, herre's Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho

There is no such thing as a scientific law.
Laws are only in Maths.

OLAADEGBU:
Appeal to ignorance.  Why don't you check your favourite wikipedia to see if that is correct.

I did.
I suspect whoever's coaching you in your answers didn't, though.

OLAADEGBU:
The particle-to-human evolution is not science it is a fairytale.

Don't you wish! This sort of knee-jerk assertion is what I'd expect of a religious fanatic. But do give a source, please. I'd love to see where you find this stuff.

Or do I need to direct you to Wiki again?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

OLAADEGBU:
Appeal to authority.  You can at least make your case here if you are sure of what you are talking about.

I think you got your answers mixed up here.
Try again.

I'm always amazed by people who have no qualms of using the benefits of the mass of scientific advances built on what we know about the world around us, yet use the computer to dispute the speed of light

OLAADEGBU:
Appeal to emotion.  Try harder next time. 

Again, it looks as though you got your answers mixed up.

Look.
Up-date your sources, which are terribly out of date and really take away any seriousness from your arguments.
Find out what the logical fallacies are (wiki has excellent sections on them) before misapplying them yet again.
Find out what a scientific theory is before you start criticising it, so you don't expose yourself to ridicule again.

Read your OT!
Read what the two different orders of Creation are.
Find out the part where the stars are literally hung in the firmament.
Find someone else to coach your answers- they aren't doing you any good at all.

frosbel, you are certainly no prophet!

frosbel:
Having debated with many Muslims here and elsewhere , it does not take rocket science to decipher the the context of their questions.

You know what his words were, and you come here asking me to hear what I have to say and then go on a typical Allah rant.

I am sparing you the trouble by ignoring that silly question.

Typical Muslims and their circular, pointless arguments.

Jesus is Lord, Muhammad is false and ALLAH is a fake.

I am sorry but this is the TRUTH.

Love,

Frosbel.

Your post says so much about you.
Do you have any idea just how small you appear with these unfounded claims?
I could sport with you some time more on the subject of your ill-judged and ill-mannered outburst, but I'm interested in how you can defend the 'incorrupted' text of the NT.
I suspect those reading the thread have had enough amusement at your expense.

Come, answer the question, what were Jesus' last words?
And so the readers of this thread have no doubts about you demented bigotry, let me assure one and all I am not Muslim.
Though I honour and respect all peoples' religious choices. Would you could say the same, frosbel!

So answer the question, frosbel, you're running out of excuses.
What were Jesus' last words?