₦airaland Forum

Henry120:
Boy, this aren't an opinion. They are hard facts!

No

This is literally his opinion.

The opinion of a man who was subsequently destroyed on the stand

Henry120:
I know you aren't smart, but come on, the facts are very clear. That the SAN got sub-standard Ships with obsolete combat suite is not even up for a debate. It is as clear..... very crystal


[b]244. In the DoD's letter dated 6 May 1999 to Messrs German Frigate Consortium and African Defence Systems (PTY) Ltd entitled Request for Best and Final Commercial Offer: SAN Patrol Corvette -Vessel System provided an Appendix B to the letter entitled Combat Suite Baseline for Vessel Best and Final Offer. This stipulated as follows :


"A hardwired solution is not acceptable to the SAN. Architecture to be as proposed on 07th April 1999."
[DT1-0426.pdf]


245. In the case of the Detexis system, the non-functioning of a particular sub-system's system interface unit will prevent other critical systems from operating (for example, if the tracker system's system interface unit fails, the gun system fails since the tracker system can no longer communicate with the gun system in order to provide it with tracking data).


246. Such a failure of (for example) a system interface unit constitutes a single point of failure within the combat suite which violates one of its fundamental design principles.


247. By contrast, in a "distributed" architecture (such as CCII Systems's IMS) all sub-systems communicate directly with one another and thus the need for system interface units and for communication via the CMS is eliminated.


248. Furthermore, the combat suite based on the Detexis system is dependent on a pair of fore and aft switches with processing intelligence and which link the CMS with all fore and aft systems respectively. If the fore or aft pair of switches fails, all fore or aft systems (as the case may be) would fail.
249. By contrast, in a "distributed"


architecture (such as CCII Systems's IMS) there are no switches. There are pairs of concentrators linking the FDDI databus to clusters of sub-systems. The concentrators do not have and do not require, processing intelligence. If a pair of concentrators fails, only the cluster of sub-systems served by that pair will fail.[/b]

Again

You are posting the opinion of one man who's systems were turned bown for another

He will only discuss the cons of the system as apposed to the pros

Are youbsaying all the Admirals of the South African, French and Saudi navies are Id.iots?

Also, Mr Young got destroyed on the stand - I can post the transcripts if you want

Henry120:
go on, keep living in denial, while you sailors sail around in an obsolete ship.

Mr young gave detailed insight on the uselessness of the system SAN got, he was further corroborated by statements made by Armscor and SAN.


242.3 the combat suite architecture based on the Detexis system is essentially a point-to-point system and such a system cannot be described as "modern";

Mr Young is a business man who is emotional because his companies product got turned down for anothers - and it his opinion, which is biased

Are you saying that mister young is right.... And all the Admirals of the French, South African and Saudi navies are wrong?

lionel4power:
theres international standard for grading ships... Ships From 2500 ton to 3500 ton are considered frigates

FREMM comes in at 6000-6900 tonnes

agaugust:
1. A-Darter was ordered by Brazil NOT SANDF....same way Mokopa was ordered by Algeria NOT SANDF

Conclusion : No proof of payment to DENEL, so no sales no purchases confirmed

2. Badger IFV, only 5 units out of 234 planned, only 5 units produced in 15 years

Conclusion : No money to build more

3. Skyshield under construction till 2017.

Conclusion : snail slow speed, may be on till 2020

4. Heavy Torpedo, only on paper Budget

Conclusion: no product name, no supplier name, no deal, no money

5. BVRAAM merlin missile.

Conclusion : Project with no date for completion. Brazil NOT signed to be involved. Missile NON-EXISTENT.

6. OPV In tender

Conclusion : Project Biro exists only on paper for almost 18 years, and will always be at paper stage. NO MONEY !

SAAF procurement dreams are a bunch of jokes !
.

What is this bullshit you have typed out?

I am all for honest debate

But to post these lies?

agaugust:
Long story. You were just doing copy and paste on internet.

You know nothing about sea warfare. Please Sharaaaap !

All facts

Facts you did not know

facts to which you have no response

MikeCZAR:
Conclusion: France installed the combat suite in their destroyer!

Your opinion and that of the arms deal critic can't be regarded over the decision of French, South African and Saudi Admirals.

edit your post - you made a mistake in your first sentence

agaugust:
Lies Lies Lies....all those projects are grounded or moving at snail speed
.

All those projects are running smoothly '

And it kills you - because all Nigeria gets is second hand junk, or stripped down empty shells!!

agaugust:
It means you don't know difference between frigate and destroyer, so ALL your talk about combat suite is garbage
.

So when I said the French Frigates from the same eara have the same system, it was garbage?

No, its a fact

So when I said the French Nuclear Aircraft carrier has the same system, it was garabage?

No, its a fact

So when I said that the Suadi's brand new Frigate operates the same system, it was grabage?

No, it was a fact

And again, the class of a vessel is determined by the navies who operate it... just like Argentina calls their MEKO a destroyer (and you call aradu a frigate), just like Japan calls their carrier a "destroyer", just like Russia calls their carrier a "cruiser", and just like ROKN calls their cruiser a "destroyer".

agaugust:
You have not posted citation to prove FREMM is a destroyer.

2007, La Fayette was replaced in frontline role by FREMM
.

1. You said the combat system on La Fayette was replaced - liar
2. As an operational warship - the La Fayette remains a frontline combat system

agaugust:
I love how you surrender when defeated

I simply have no interest in pointless arguments.

How does the classing of a FREMM have anything to do with the argument?

And read my earlyer posts -

agaugust:
It's actually the other way round, French La Fayette frigate was in service 1996, the Valour frigate entered service in 2003, you actually copied their old combat suite which they have now replaced with a modern system, buy you cannot afford anything new
.

When did the french replace it?

Citation needed!

agaugust:
Citation needed....like this one http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-over-50-combat-system-trials-performed-on-the-fremm-normandie/

Fool of Gauteng, post citation to beat the French manufacturer specs I posted...post it now !
.

Why are you so desperate to derail the argument with irrelevant topics?

Henry120:
He is bragging about obsolete Frigates...... the Valour class are nothing but sailing rust buckets.


The Ships do not even meet the users basic requirements.

Again, this is according to the testimony of a man who lost out to other bidders

Obviously his testimony is going to be critical

this is his opinion and not fact

Most importantly: He is talking about the systems IMS

And not about the COMBAT SUITE

So, show us how the combat suite is obsolete.

agaugust:
The French manufacturer that built the ship says FREMM is a frigate you dumbazz domingo !

http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-over-50-combat-system-trials-performed-on-the-fremm-normandie/

ALL your arguments about combat suite is hereby de..molished , you know nothing about sea warfare
.

French deem it to be a Destroyer

Just like the Japabese call their helicopter carrier a destroyer


In anycase, who cares?

French frigates introduced when the valour class was chosen use the same combat suite

French flagship uses the same combat sweet

More modern Saudi frigate uses same combat suite

Henry120:
And he says it's from an arms critic!!!


Armscor and CCII systems are now arms critics?".... LOL

Richard Young, who lost out as bidder in the Arms Deal, said an evaluation at the time proved that his company’s Information Management System (IMS) was better than the one selected for the navy's new frigates.

Gee I wonder why he is critical of it?

Anyway, they say that the DATABUS system is obsolete, not the combat suite as a whole

In computer architecture, a bus (related to the Latin "omnibus", meaning "for all" is a communication system that transfers data between components inside a computer, or between computers. This expression covers all related hardware components (wire, optical fiber, etc.) and software, including communication protocols

So, can you please show us how the COMBAT SUITE is obsolete

Thank you

agaugust:
You already lost, the argument, you think FREMM is a destroyer, but it's a frigate. You know nothing about naval warfare, mumu

http://www.janes.com/article/49163/egypt-to-acquire-fremm-frigate
.

French navy deems it to be a destroyer

The category of vessel is largely dependant on the operator.

Just like Japans new "destroyer"

Henry120:
You are unbelievable naive!

You are unbeleivably dense.

You are posting the testimony from an arms deal CRITIC

Obviously he will be critical

Fact is the combat suite is good enough for the French and Saudi Navies

Fact is that the requirements of the Valour class changed as the project developed.

Henry120:
[b]
241.7 the Detexis system attempts to achieve system reliability by means of a combination of dual-redundant, dual-homed Fast Ethernet switches, duplicated Network Interface Cards ("NICs" and software-implemented data packet duplication and selection logic, but reliability is compromised by the following :

241.7.1 the use of duplicated NICs is undesirable since hardware is doubled and each NIC requires the processing resources of its host, which is limited;

241.7.2 data packet duplication and selection is a potentially dangerous redundancy mechanism in mission-critical systems, since it violates the atomic commitment principle, namely that data transactions should either complete successfully ("commit" or fail completely ("abort", with no partial state. This is violated by the transmission of duplicate data packets.

242. The Detexis system also failed to comply with the requirements of the NSR quoted above in the following respects :

242.1 in the Detexis system the combat suite as a whole is not "based on" an architecture using a databus. Only the CMS component of the combat suite utilises a databus. The CMS in turn connects to the rest of the combat suite by multiple point-to-point (or hard-wired) links; and

242.2 the databus in the Detexis system is thus not a "multirole" databus, since it provides functionality to the CMS only and cannot provide clock synchronisation nor timestamping services nor bulk data transfer services to the combat suite, those being inter alia the functionalities of the databus specified by the URS (Para. 7.1.1 thereof);


242.3 the combat suite architecture based on the Detexis system is essentially a point-to-point system and such a system cannot be described as "Mordern".[/b]

Still posting the opinion of an anti-arms deal critic?

Answer my two questions and stop wasting our time with these meaningless copy + pasts

agaugust:
The new french ship is FREMM not La Fayette http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/fremm/

Aradu is a 1980 warship with 2001 refit new combat suite. Valour frigate has 1996 combat suite and 38 year old scrap-yard gun.

Aradu and Valour frigate struggle with same generation of combat suites. France is far ahead.

Stop this fooooooolish suiiiiicide argument, you lost !

Augustus.

Do you wish to compare capabilities of the combat suite??

Age of upgrade is irrelevant - as we taught you when you bragged about "modern" radar on your F-7's (Which turned out to be ancient)

Henry120:
Get ready for some more humble pie!

Open wide boy....... I want to feed you more humble pies.

By posting testimony from an anti-arms deal critic?

Do you understand what the term BIASED means?

Post all you want, until you answer my 2 questions your posts are largely irrelevant

agaugust:
Nope, your sources say La Fayette frigate, meaning same combat suite on a 20 year old obsolete French warship.

Your own source led you into s.uicide mode on a happy weekend like this

Same combat suite that was around when the Valour Class was selected and built.

Same combat suite in operation with frances newest frigates and Carrier

If the 20 year old La Fayette is obsolete... what is the Aradu... allmost TWICE as old!!


And the La Fayette remains the newest FRIGATE in the French Navy as they deem the FREEM they have in service to be a DESTROYER

Read what I said befor starting stu.pid arguments

Henry120:
241.6 the real-time performance of the Detexis system is deficient due to its employing the Transmission Control Protocol/ Internet Protocol ("TCP/IP" which has inherent deficiencies in this regard, specifically its Time-Wait state machine and primitive message priority scheme. According to the Internet standard RFC 793 a connection can stay in a Time-Wait state for a maximum of four minutes known as a MSL (maximum segment lifetime); this is highly deficient and unacceptable for a real-time system such as the combat suite;

Again, you are posting incomplete testimony from an anti-arms deal critic.

Now show:

1. How does this relate to your allegation that it is obsolete?

2. How does this make the Valour Class inferior to anything in your arsenal?

As usual, you displace stunning cognitive dissonance

agaugust:
You and I have argued this last year and I proved it all, I updated it on wikipedia and showed my sources to EVERYBODY on this thread last year, Harpoon databases and Spanish navy ships website. I see no need for a repeat, "In 2001, another refit (with American assistance) was undertaken, and the ship returned to operation. The obsolete AWS 5 radar and PHS sonar were replaced with a Signaal STIR (I/J/K) 60 nm/120 km fire control (range, bearing, altitude), DA-08 90 nm/180 km air (search, track) as well as an Atlas EA80 20 nm/40 km passive anti-submarine sonar (bearing, class), in addition to these, all other systems including weapons were cleaned, overhauled and put in good working order."

Now you show us proof of new combat suite in Valour frigate, that you have removed the 20 year old navionics...show proof !
.

Ok, now compare that to the valour class combat suite shall we?

You ready?

Henry120:
Are you daft?

A boat that doesn't meet the basic requirements of the buyer is obsolete.

No.

It does not meet certain requirements that were changed due to a multitude of reasons: from cost, % domestic design, manufacturers issues etc

If the navy started with unrealistic requirements, and then had to curtail requirements due to cost and availability of platforms, it doeskin mean what you got is obsolete

Now, show:

1. How does this relate to your allegation that it is obsolete?

2. How does this make the Valour Class inferior to anything in your arsenal?

Henry120:
You will eat humble pie this evening. I'll continue feeding you humble pie...... you want to mess with a Nigerian abi?





The source is available for all to see. It isn't hidden.

You can post all the testimony you want, it proves none of your allegations.

Now show:

1. How does this relate to your allegation that it is obsolete?

2. How does this make the Valour Class inferior to anything in your arsenal?

As usual, you displace stunning cognitive dissonance

agaugust:
Valour frigate refit ? Did you change the whole combat suite ?

Show us proof !

Sources say you changed old engine, is diesel engine your combat suite ? Olodo Rabata
.

My point exactly

SHOW US PROOF OF ARADU COMBAT SUITE REFIT!!

Henry120:
[b]

241.2 furthermore, the combat suite based on Detexis system is essentially a hard-wired point-to-point solution rather than being bus-based and its potential for growth and upgrading is thus severely curtailed; this being directly contrary to the SAN's own formally stated RFO requirement;
[DT1-0321.pdf]


241.3 the Detexis system does not provide synchronised clocks for the time-stamping of data;
241.4 the transfer capability of the Detexis system is only 165 bytes in 6,5 milliseconds, which falls far short of the capability required by the URS (4 000 bytes in not more than 5 milliseconds);


241.5 the Detexis system's node-to-node synchronisation accuracy is at best only of the order of 10 milliseconds (10 000 microseconds), contrary to the 500 microseconds in a worst-case scenario as specified in the URS - a factor of 20 times worse. In fact, the end-to-end synchronisation accuracy of the combat suite based on the Detexis system will be considerably worse than 10 milliseconds due to its hard-wired component. This accuracy is critical to the combat suite's air defence function;[/b]

Ok

You have shown that there are better systems - which cost more money

You have shown that the URS were changed while the project developed.

Now, show:

1. How does this relate to your allegation that it is obsolete?

2. How does this make the Valour Class inferior to anything in your arsenal?

As usual, you displace stunning cognitive dissonance

Henry120:
"Are we discussing France or South-Africa?".


Your combat suite did not even comply with Amscor URS.


Obsolete boat for an obsolete Navy!

Do you know what URS means and what requirments were stipulated?

I found the source you are using (despite the fact that you wouldent post it because you knew we would see that you were posting sections out of context!)

I know, and I know you have been posting trash again.

agaugust:
Nope, that combat suite is on 20 year old French warships that existed almost a decade before Valour frigates, according to your own source.

FREMM frigate and Horizon are the new frontline warships of France.

Only South Africa got ripped off as usual.....plus a 38 year old main gun on your new warship, $300 million frigate
.

Same combat suite that was around when the Valour Class was selected and built.

Same combat suite in operation with frances newest frigates and Carrier

Same combat suite in Sauid's most advanced and newest warship

Henry120:
240. Furthermore, a number of the evaluation team's criticisms of the Detexis system identified aspects where the Detexis system did not comply with the baseline requirements specified in the URS (in particular, Points 1, 4, 7, 8, 10, 13 and 15).

241. The IMS was in fact (as the evaluation team found) a superior product and the Detexis system was in fact deficient and failed to comply with the URS

And so?

One product was better than another - it was also more expensive.

And with reference to your first statement - do you know what URS stands for?

agaugust:
Combat suite of Aradu was changed in 2001 refit. Same level with Valour frigate
.

Valour class was refit just now... 2015 capabilities

Make stup.id arguments and I will make them too.

If you wish to say they are the same, then post capabilities and compare them. Age does not define the quality of a system.

Aradu has 35 year old hardware and combat suite.