₦airaland Forum

donjazet:
At this point, your bias shines through you.
I should have spotted your disingenuity earlier. You masqueraded yourself as a neutral on this issue when you are obviously a hater. A hater who formulates and employs weak antics.

Just look at that poor line of defense you employed, diminishing the value of Italian and German leagues to make your point. Just like people would say Messi is a tad overrated because he only performed in one league. So by your analogy, Buffon and chiellini are a bit overrated because they shone in only the Italian league? Is the Italian league not one of the top 4 football leagues in the world?

Secondly is jorginho not also shining in his country?? Did he not just win a continental competition? What do you mean found out?? Was it not in EPL that jorginho also held passing records??

As for the coaches opinion. Of course we have our eyes and brain which we use to form opinions but it is foolhardy when your opinion goes contrary to that of elite professionals?
If for example, I have a wound on my hand and 6 medical doctors inspect this wound and tell me it's not just a lesion but Cancerous, won't I be foolish to still have a contrary opinion? I might have read books about the skin but would it compare to the the experience and expertise of that elite professional?

Mind you, every single opinion we have is an aggregation of other people's opinion. We have heard from multiple sources and pieced together our own. In other words, our opinions depends on our sources.
As I said earlier,I'm tired of this argument,I won't be replying further. Go away with your bias and continue hating while the player is balling. You can only sulk and sulk.

LOL. I'm a hater because i don't agree Jorginho is ELITE. Omo, you really deserve Ibime You want your man to be acclaimed as world class when he does not pass the litmus test.

The German Bundesliga is better than that league, yet you still see people calling it Burndisleaguedown or farmer's league which is harsh but with a bit of truth in it. So why should i take the Serie A seriously when discussing elite matters. The French League is also a Top 5 league, why don't we hold them up as a yardstick for elite players after all there are only 4 leagues better than them.

The Messi analogy won't work because he was the best player in a league that was arguably the best league for the most part of a decade. Different teams from that league were winning multiple continental titles at all levels. He was competing for titles against fellow elite players. He also has his records and performances against quality opposition in multiple seasons in the CL to back up his elite status. Same with Lewy, Muller and co.

Buffon and Chiellini are elite not just because they have won 10 league titles but because of their consistency and match-winning performances in both local and international competitions over the years. Between them, they've LED their teams to a World Cup title, multiple CL finals, multiple Euro finals, Chiellini winning one. They are accorded massive respect by both fans and rivals. Can you say the same for Jorginho?

This man ehn. You are comparing a specialized field like medicine and surgery to football coaching. Medical reports are based on facts not opinion. Facts that must have passed standard tests and inquiries and are verifiable. Saying a football player is elite is a matter of opinion not facts. What you can do is make convincing arguments as to why this is so.

Who gives a fucck about his passing records in England? How many titles did he win with it, how many team of the year selections did he make? Not even an assist to show for it. Italian Leon Britton Sarriball was shown up and the golden boy of the system fell with it. Later you will begin to wonder why i discriminate between leagues.

Me sef don tire to dey talk Jorginho. You guys can enjoy him. I definitely will be more than happy to see him play against Bayern if we meet.

donjazet:
Another poor logical thought pattern.

I mentioned several elite managers who all value a player.
The response is to start picking them off individually to show they are fallible. Of course they're fallible and they have all made mistakes individually in their careers but what are the odds that ALL of them combined together are wrong on this one player?? It would be foolhardy to throw away an opinion that is jointly held by the elite managers.

Coaches who have played with jorginho have reaped success.
I said jorginho has led his team to seven finals in 4 years and you screamed, which seven finals?

Since jorginho came, Chelsea have played in 3 European finals, the Europa league final where jorginho made the team of the year. The champions league final where jorginho made the team of the year and the super cup final too. The Carling cup finals which Chelsea lost on penalties to mancity, the FA cup finals to arsenal and Leicester and then his Euros finals. How many is that??
Do also note that jorginho won the Italian domestic cup and their supercoppa Italia with Napoli before he came to Chelsea, also finishing in the league with 86 points and 91 points. Usually high enough to win leagues. Breaking individual records along the way.
Also, About to play another Carling cup final. And club world cup final.

I could go on and on, to elucidate how this is an elite player but you would only double down because nobody would ever want to drop pride and admit that just maybe they were wrong on this player.

Just maybe they mis-characterized this player or judged him wrongly.
Well, he simply doesn't care, vice captain of his club leading his team to glory and earning his accolades from those that matter.

MEANWHILE, HATERS CAN ONLY HATE.

I only pointed that out to show being world class doesn't mean you are perfect and can't make mistakes. Are these the only world class coaches in the world? What if we find other world class coaches who don't rate Jorginho highly as they do? It's a matter of opinion.You don't expect me to accept Jorginho is world class because Mourinho, Sarri and Tuchel said so. What do i have my eyes and brain for then?

When a supposed world class player is derided by majority of his club fans season in season out, then you know something is wrong. Rival fans are not even intimidated or triggered by his quality. That's Jorginho for you.

Of course, i know all the 7 finals Jorginho played for his teams. My emphasis on the word LEAD. How many of those finals did he play a key role in getting to or winning? Only the Euros. I couldn't care any less about his records in the Serie A. Even the much maligned Bundesliga better pass that snail league. It's no wonder that when he moved to a top league, he was found out and his weaknesses were laid bare. Elite no be by dominating Cagliari, Palermo and Crotone oh.

donjazet:
This is ridiculous. Are you really saying that 5 world-class managers would ALL be wrong on their joint consensus on a player??
If the results were not matching, that would be another thing. But jorginho has played his role in leading his teams to SEVEN goddamn finals in 4 years.

Again, SEVEN finals in 4 years.
I was regarding you as a neutral intelligent observer, that's about to change. You are departing from logic.

Bro, your blood too dey hot. In running from pillar to post defending Jorginho, you are mixing things up and attributing things i never said to me. I already agreed Jorginho is a good player, just not an elite one. That has always been the crux of my argument on this matter.

Even then, your world class coaches can say all they want, it's their opinion. Jorginho played under Sarri, Mancini, Tuchel so i don't expect them to say anything different. The same Mourinho that didn't spot the greatness in KDB and Salah. And Pep, LOL, that man has the sweetest tongue of any manager. He go dey kill you and he go still dey praise you. We at Bayern still remember his infamous 1000 Dantes comment I love the man but his words don't carry much weight with me.

Una don start again. Which 7 finals did Jorginho lead his teams to? The only one i can ascribe a starring role to Jorginho is the Euros. win. He was more or less an active passenger in the rest. Jorginho stans should stop spinning lies

Godx:
No it's not. We are working with facts here not speculation. The fact here is that he asked to be sold and Pep don't keep players against their will.

Did Nolito flop, Yes or No? Nolito staying wouldn't have changed anything. He would have been benched just like Bravo and Pep would have moved on to another signing. Simple.

Godx:
How is that different from Chelsea moving from Kepa to Mendy or realizing Werner wasn't good enough and then proceed to splash 100Milllion for a new striker in Lukaku. Nolito asked to be sold by the way.

Bro, calm down I'm pro-Pep I just find it amusing that someone would take Pep's interest in every player as proof of their quality. Like "Oh, if Pep is interested in this guy then he must be a great player" kinda thing.

Nolito asking to be sold is irrelevant. The point is he flopped and Pep was going to find someone new sooner than later.

Ibime:
In another episode of "Players Pep Coveted", donjazet declares that Manure fans should have no problem with Fred in their midfield.

According to DonJ, "Manure fans cannot know more than Pep, Mourinho, Solskjaer and Ralf Ragnick and Brazil managers who continue to pick him "

LMAO. First na Bakayoko, now na Fred. This Pep na mad man I just pity teams wey dey shadow im transfer targets. Someone that won't hesitate to throw away the said signing if things don't work out and get a new one. Remember Bravo and Nolito? He can afford to try these crazy experiments because he has the resources to correct them if they fail. But you go dey see some mumu clubs buy player just because Pep is interested only to get stuck with them when they flop.

Amoto94:
We didn't set the rules we only met them in place.

You people no go kill persin

Amoto94:
Should we say Pep's time at Bayern was a failure based on your assertion?

Comrade, why nau?!!

lordfalcao:
Chelsea aside. Italy can’t find a Dm in the whole world to replace him?

The excuses you guys picks as joke writes themselves

Of course there are DMs in Italy. But how many of them are real quality? When you have someone like Pirlo play for you for over a decade, the standards are high and no random player would just do. Jorginho happens to be the best of an average bunch. Just like Germany keep persisting with Havertz and Werner since they haven't had a quality striker since Klose retired in 2014.

nihilistjnr:
Bros the guy said,people don't see Rodris deficiencies because City is typically not on the back foot

I responded with - We saw it, and gave an example if when we saw it.

Context.

Chairman, make we no drag this matter too much. I don gree for you

timbros:
If a player doesn't contribute anything to the team, what is the best and simplest thing the coach will do? Bench him. He contributed nothing NOTHING.

But why will a coach tweak and alter his formation and tactics to suit that player who contributes nothing to the team? I mean, isnt it way more easier to drop a player to the bench than look for a way to play that player even when it requires to tweak your normal formation before you feature that guy?

Sarri tweak his team to accommodate "useless" Jorginho. Tuchel tweak his formation to accommodate "useless" Jorginho. Mancini tweak his tactics to accommodate "useless" Jorginho..... What am I missing here? Wouldn't it be easier for these coaches to simply drop him from the team?

Well, maybe Jorginho belongs to this Italia Mafia that somehow kidnap the family members of these coaches threatening violence if they bench Jorginho.

I don't understand.

Chairman, you suppose dey calm down. I never called Jorginho useless. In fact, i said he's a decent player. Only Tuchel tweaked his system for Jorginho, others only persisted with him in theirs. You think if those Tuchel had better options he would play him?

At Italy, he is not even the best midfielder. You think if anyone in that Italy squad was half as good as Pirlo was, Jorginho go see starting shirt? The only person with quality suitable for that CDM role is Verratti but he can't play that role because of his rashness and lack of a cool head. Morever his skills as a elite ball progressor are irrepleaceable in that Italy squad. Shey na Gagliardini or Locatelli go bench Jorginho? If only Tonali was a bit older and more experienced we for no dey talk this thing.

Jorginho is a good player but not an elite one. Simples.

nihilistjnr:
See first sentence of bolded for context.

Still doesn't prove anything. You say Rodri's lack of pace means he won't play well in Liverpool and Spurs. On what evidence? You forget that playing for Spurs and Liverpool means him not playing as high up the pitch and playing with more defensively solid midfield partners. He would be less exposed to counter attacks and his lack of pace wouldn't be much of a problem.

donjazet:
This is a myth you've let yourself believe, unfortunately.
Jorginho played against mancity, Tottenham, realmadrid, Liverpool, ATM, Porto etc and came out of tops in almost all of them with Chelsea out possessing all of them bar mancity.

Does any opposition get stronger than these?
You've really bought into that whack fallacy that jorginho is not press-resistant. HE IS.
He does break between the lines by finding pockets of space to evade pressure and pass the ball.

Furthermore, if all your coaches are "bending down backwards" to cover for you, what does it say about the value of that player?? Doesn't that highlight his absolute importance to the team?
Don't let minority opinions fool you. A whole lot of us appreciate the intelligence and genius of jorginho. That's why he's the European footballer of the year and 3rd place overall best in the world.

Bro, you are the one peddling half-truths and myths. Real Madrid had more possession than Chelsea in both legs, almost 70% in the second leg at the Bridge. Atletico, Spurs and Porto don't count as they play a low-block defensive system. Can you bring out at least one game, never mind two games against top-level midfield opposition where Jorginho controlled and ran the game in the last 12 months? I will wait.

Jorginho press-resistant? Don't make me laugh. Person wey dey always panic give backpass under little pressure. The only time he receives the ball facing his goal and plays forward is when there is no one pressing him. Abeg.

I don't think you understand what i mean by breaking lines. It means threading balls in between the opposition defensive lines. Not neccesarily to directly create goal scoring chances but progressing the ball into attacking areas. Jorginho lacks all of this. All he does is make 5m backward and sideway passes, which is not bad, don't get me wrong. I get the concept of recycling the ball but that ability to work the ball into dangerous areas is what seperates the best from the rest.

The reasons the coaches keep bending backwards is a combination of 2 factors. Firstly, there is no better option or solution in sight, the moment they get one, Jorginho's place might come under threat. This is more likely at Chelsea than Italy. Secondly, favoritism, these coaches are humans and they are also prone to sentiments and bias. They see a bit of themselves in Jorginho, as he is also a student of the game so they take to him not because he is one fantastic player.

nihilistjnr:
I'm talking merely about Rodri facing a counter attack. Theres a reason Kyle Walker is now more a less a 3rd centre back.

Positional play is irrelevant if someone can come to your position and gap you from there... especially if that someone is a glass ankled snail like Harry Kane. I was shocked when I saw Kane pacing Rodri to the point where even the commentators dey laugh.

You agreed with someone's assertion that Rodri cannot play in Liverpool and Spurs system which i disputed. There was no mention of counter attack in that submission. Walker playing almost as a RCB is an emergency plan on counters which is not even needed much these days because Rodri is winning balls higher up the pitch.

Rodri is not the fastest DM around and there is no shame in admitting that. But he more than makes up for it with his ball-winning skills and positional intelligence.

You think someone that has excelled in constrasting systems like the ones at Atletico and City won't play well in a middle ground system like the one at Liverpool and Spurs? LOL

User09:
Oh...he's elite I assure you.

No point dragging the unending argument as neither side will concede

LOL. Maybe in another multiverse. Definitely not this one we are living in. Oh, i get it! it's because he won the best player in Europe award and finished third in the Ballon d'or rankings. Bro, that guy is just one lucky modafucka.

donjazet:
This is wrong, I have always conceded that jorginho has certain weaknesses. His pace is a weakness but many elite DM's also have this problem but they have other attributes that more than makes up for this. He's a very intelligent player.
And moreso he has a bonus attribute, just like pirlo and Xabi alonso were freekick specialist, jorginho is a penalty specialist. That's an added bonus of his game that has enabled him become one of the highest scoring DM's of the game.

I understand no player is perfect and they all have their limiations. But in Jorginho's case, his limitations are glaring and could cause serious problems for the team if ignored, hence the reason for his managers bending backwards to cover these deficiences.

I'm not too particular about his lack of pace but his lack of press-resistance and progressive passing is a big issue for me. He is a flat-track bully controller who only shows up when lesser-talented opposition sit back but disappears in the tough matches when things get hot in the middle of the park. His defensive work rate has improved but this is more down to Tuchel's system than any work on his part. He still can't play in a 2-man midfield without having 3 CBs behind him.

But i agree he understands the tactical aspect of the game, which is why all his coaches love him. But he is a player first, so that doesn't mean much to me. If na by that one, make e go collect Uefa pro coaching license

He's great leader also. He motivates his team mates and gives his all. Can you see a pattern emerging here, it's all intagibles with Jorginho rather than any strength you can point to. He's only a decent passer, he can't shoot, he can't break lines. Chance creation zero. Set piece ability nil. But he does score penalties which is a superpower to you LOL. Do you know the probability of scoring a pk is 75%? You want to compare that to scoring from freekicks, scoring screamers from 35, 40 yards. Bros, abeg nau. Things would be more interesting if he was the one winning those penalties in the first place

[quote author=nihilistjnr post=109153824]Bro we noticed.

Kane did the man dirty that day

🗣️ "He is messing with them like you wouldn't believe..." @GNev2 hails a stunning performance from @HKane leading the line for Spurs

📺 Watch on Sky Sports PL
📱 Follow #TOTMCI here: https://t.co/BY6LlTS5JE
📲 Download the @SkySports app! pic.twitter.com/IUrKzvcruv

— Sky Sports Premier League (@SkySportsPL) November 21, 2020

is a bit unfair on Rodri. Yes, we all know he's not the fastest but to imply he can't play in Liverpool's or Spurs system is a myth. This clip was from last season, barely halfway through his second season with City.

First of all, let's not forget Rodri has spent most of his still young career playing in low-block counter-attacking teams like Villareal and Atletico and a switch to playing as the 6 for a ball-dominant side that plays high up the pitch like City do wasn't always going to be smooth. His positional play had to be perfect. He couldn't risk playing too deep when City were pressing and woe betides him if he gets caught out playing too high up the pitch, on a counter-attack as he is not the fastest in a foot race. It was like walking a tightrope. And he struggled initially. The pace of the English game stunned him and it took a while to adapt.

The reason for this 'escort' tag was the initial struggles that came with playing in this new system. Pep addressed this issue with his assistant, Juanma Lilllo and worked on improving Rodri's positional play and telling him not to move too much. What we are seeing now is a Rodri who is better placed to deal with counter attacks. At a point this season, City had gone on the longest sequence of games, 15 i think, without conceding a chance from a counter until all hell broke loose in that opening 20 mins of that 2nd half against Leicester. A big part of that has been down to Rodri, who has won the most balls in the final third of the pitch this season for Man City.

I hope with these few points of mine, i've been able to convince you, and not confuse you that Rodrigo Hernandez is not an escort

OVA200:
Alot of people does not understand football here actually.

I'm reading something and my stomach is turning.

Bro, no be only you As in. . Both sides actually have strong points but the extreme views they both hold on the topic makes its hard to make a case for either. Ibime sees nothing good in Jorginho while Don J thinks he's the best thing to happen to Chelsea's midfield The truth is somewhere in the middle, and it is while Jorginho is not a bad player, he is nowhere near world-class. He does the basics well enough but there is nothing in his game that makes him elite.

Android17:
"mocking" and "thickness" this early in the conversation? [b]Do you know Manchester City averages more attendance per game than Liverpool?[/b]Do you know that they have a big deal with Puma? Do you know they have won 3 of the last EPL titles and get the top money for TV deals? Do you know they got to a UCL final and got a lot of money for coming close? Do you know they have a big deal with Etihad? Oh, it does not help with your narrative. So it does not count.

I'm pretty sure the emboldened is wrong. Rival fans don't call their stadium Emptyhad for no reason. Even Pep dey beg fans make dem come stadium. That's how bad it is.

Another clutch moment from Rodri. An injury-time winner today to add to that game-saving block at Anfield against Liverpool and not forgetting a potential goal of the season vs Everton. That man has been the best DM in the PL this season by a mile. It might have taken him a while to adapt but now that he's got going, some of y'all might need to start tendering your apologies A proper holding midfielder that sets his team playing on the front foot whilst not neglecting his defensive duties, unlike that fake Brazilian penalty merchant masquerading as a controller. I no mention anybody name oh

80sjamshophip:
The comments there man Just look at how they are insulting him, his wife and kids. Funny thing is that he doesn't give a Bleep about them and he's still going to post same thing next year

Salah na coconut head, e no dey hear word E no send them. They can froth at the mouth if they like. What those idiots don't realize is, celebrating Christmas has gone beyond religion, it's a cultural phenomenon. It is the biggest holiday of the year and it ushers in the New Year. There is no rule that says Muslims can't celebrate Christmas. Even atheists join in in the celebrations.

80sjamshophip:
Salah has posted just Go to his page and read the comments

He has done it again! I've been waiting all day for this I was thinking maybe he had bowed to pressure this year. The comments section is crazy as always.

nihilistjnr:
Leyqute where are my pictures for godsake.

Thunder go still fire you where you dey Mofo

Omo, i still remember this yarn

Here's a little fun fact to excite United fans. Did you know that the last 3 CL titles have been won by clubs coached by German managers, each one different from the next? Klopp with Liverpool in 2019, Flick with Bayern in 2020, Tuchel with Chelsea in 2021.

Now, you probably know where i'm heading to There are only 2 German managers who are yet to win the trophy left in the competition as at now. Nagelsmann at Bayern and Rangnick, who has just taken over at your club. Coincidentally, the last two German managers to win the CL trophy took over mid-season

Then there's the Brazilian good luck charm. In the last 16 yrs, every team that has won the CL has had at least one Brazilian in their side. The longest streak of any nationality. Which is where Pastor Fred comes in not forgetting Alex Telles. Unfortunately for us at Bayern, we don't have a Brazilian at the moment which is something we hope our sporting director will be looking to rectify come January.

So United fans, you can start dreaming The stars are starting to align for a 4th CL title. Don't say i didn't tell you oh!

Neymar1095:
K

Thanks for stopping by. Bye!

Neymar1095:
The first paragraph just shows you don't watch Psg. No need wasting my time on you.

LOL, e wan escape. Mr man, i saw PSG under Tuchel and i know he played Neymar as a number 10 instead of his usual LW position to mitigate PSG's creativity and ball progression issues in midfield especially with the constant injury problems of Verratti. Neymar did his bit and Mbappe also contributed. No one in their right mind would refer to Mbappe as Neymar's sidekick. Neymar's position only assumed a slight bigger importance in the latter stages of the CL due to Mbappe fitness issues. Mbappe no be anybody's boy oh!

Neymar1095:
You are typing nonsense. Anybody that watched Psg constantly through out Tuchel reign will tell you Neymar was Psg best player by a mile. It's only under Pochettino Neymar has struggled not because of any nonsense decline you are preaching but because Poch changed his role and has not used him effectively. The fact that Neymar struggles at Psg but gets to Brazil and keeps scoring and assisting ridiculously should tell you how stupid and clueless Pochettino is. Lmao Neymar on form has no mate in world football.

He was on par with Mbappe under Tuchel. Let's not make it seem like he carried the team on his back. Tuchel left in December 2020, we are in December 2021. That was why i said he's regressed. Under this same clueless Poch, Mbappe has been shining but no it's Poch that is behind Neymar's struggles. Poch is the one responsible for Neymar not imposing himself on big matches. We still remember how he choked against Bayern in 2020. Even the much maligned Messi has more goals and assists than Neymar since he joined PSG. But blame it on Poch.

No goal in his last 7 CL knockout stage matches. Only 1 in 10 games since joining PSG. Na to dey statpad against Red Star Belgrade, Basaksehir and the rest e sabi

Android17:
The year in question is August 2020 to August 2021. Count down starts from beginning of last season to his role at the Euros. It is why people who were angry Messi won over Lewandowski were missing it.

You might have a point though. But i'm not too sure about the period under review though. They don't make enough clarification on these things. Another issue is when the form was sent out to the players and the deadline for submission. I would imagine a period of about a month and a half to allow for full participation from the players. Some might voted early as September while some might have waited till the very end, say November before casting their votes. If a larger proportion of the voters voted late, i'm sure Salah would have made that list due to recency bias.

Neymar1095:
Neymar declined lmao. That was a nice joke.

As expected, the fanboy comes to the defense of his idol. It's clear to anyone with working eyes that your MCM has regressed. He is not even among the best 8 players in the world now, never mind top 5. He has now even been relegated to the third best player in PSG, a team he was supposed to be the top dog on. Neymar only made that FifPro list by reputation and not by actual performances on the pitch. Even in the Ligue One, he has been poor and his stats actually reflect this. PSG have Mbappe to thank for keeping them flying in the league in the midst of passengers like Neymar and Messi.

Roland17:
Good to have you back.

Thank you, boss. I've been around for a while, just low-key. Arteta don suffer for your hand this season oh

Android17:
Your point about Neymar is valid. I would have used Harry Kane (not Salah) to replace him.

There's no way Kane gets on this list ahead of Salah. His atrocious form this season dampens whatever chances he might have had. But wait o, wetin Salah do you people? The man is arguably the most in-form player on the planet and people are still casting doubts as to if he deserves a place on ordinary preliminary list for the best players in the world. Na wa oh!

There is no justification whatsoever for Salah not making that FifPro XI list. Whether he deserves to make the actual first XI is a much closer debate. Lukaku also deserves his place on the list despite his recent dip in form. What i find surprising is no one talking about Neymar making that list. That guy has declined in the last year and a half at the very least. I'm not even going to talk about the other categories. Things like this make it hard to disagree with those who write off these awards as glorified popularity contests.