₦airaland Forum

The Quran 3:35-37 that Maclatunji quoted is from the Gnostic gospels. I have been looking for the exact one but cannot quite find it as yet. This has been thrashed somewhere on this board in the last 2 years. This is definitely a forgery. I will bring proof once i find it. Its most likely from Infancy Gospel of Thomas or Mary

The Muslims and the Catholics have not answered the question, what are the Pope and Muslim leaders going to dialogue on? Are they going to slow down on the persecution of Christians everywhere by Muslims? Are they going to recognise that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is the way the truth and the life? That He was crucified, and was resurrected? Remember after Regensburg and Oct 2007 when the Muslim leaders wrote a letter asking for a dialogue and quoting Surah 3:64 which you find below.

A Common Word between Us and You is an open letter, dated 13 October 2007, from leaders of the Islamic religion to leaders of the Christian religion. It calls for peace between Muslims and Christians and tries to work for common ground and understanding between both religions, in line with the Qur'anic commandment to "Say: 'O People of the Scripture! come to a common word as between us and you: that we worship none but God'" and the Biblical commandment to love God, and one's neighbour. In the time since its release, "A Common Word" opened an interfaith dialogue between Christians and Muslims.In 2008 the initiative was awarded the "Eugen Biser Award", and the "Building Bridges Award" from the UK's Association of Muslim Social Scientists.

Now read the full Ayah of the Surah. These guys were obviously very economical with that chapter and verse of the Quran.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

This tells you they are not interested in dialogue, but more to ask the people they are having dialogue with to embrace Islam.

We are waiting for the chip....

Frosbel, disregard the attacks. You're not the first and sure won't be the last to be attacked for saying what is true.

On another note, can our brothers and sisters in Africa see why an African could never have been elected Pope? It was always going to be a Pope that will be "inclusive" that would be elected and definitely not a conservative looking one.

The signs are there for all to see but obviously some fail to see. In another thread that vedaxcool opened about the Francis and Benedict having "issues" about Benedicts comment in Regensburg in 2006. So its pretty clear what is happening. All the bets were on Angelo Scola (if you are in doubt, search for news stories after Benedict stepped down) because of what he stood for (wanted to have a dialogue with Islam) and towards the conclave he became favourites but the conclave obviously knew what we didnt know and chose Pope Francis I.

An Indonesian city government demolished a church in front of its weeping congregation Thursday, as Muslim protesters egged on workers and branded the Christians "infidels".
Dozens in the 100-strong congregation wailed as a digger tore down the brick walls, with worshippers accusing the government of "criminalising our religion", in a sign of increasing intolerance in the world's largest Muslim-majority nation.
"My heart is aching and I feel numb watching my church collapse. I went to this church for 11 years," Megarenta Sihite, 46, told AFP, wiping away tears as fellow worshippers, dressed in black, hugged each other.
"Our church can collapse but not our faith. We will continue to come here for Sunday mass."
As the walls of the Taman Sari Batak Christian Protestant Church -- at the centre of a planning row -- crumbled, police in Bekasi city on the outskirts of Jakarta, dispersed 200 Muslim women who sneaked onto the church land chanting Koranic verses.
Along the road Muslim protesters held back by a police cordon had chanted "Knock the church down now", and "Allahu Akbar" (God is greater).
One man shouted through a loudspeaker: "They're infidels and they've built their church without permission."
Members of the congregation had earlier begged the Bekasi city government to halt the demolition, with children clutching signs reading "please do not dismantle our church".
Reverend Advent Nababan shed tears as the building was pulled down. "You just witnessed the government criminalising our religion," he said.
The local government had ordered the demolition of the church for being built, in October 2012, without a legal permit.
However the congregation said the permit was repeatedly and unfairly rejected after they had spent 13 years worshipping at the site unopposed in a temporary shelter.
Nababan said the church had obtained broad support from the Muslim community before building started. Several neighbours confirmed with AFP they had no problem with a church in the vicinity.
Ninety percent of Indonesia's 240 million people identify themselves as Muslim and the country's constitution guarantees freedom of religion.
The Setara Institute of Peace and Democracy, however, says cases of intolerance are on the rise, with 543 incidents reported in 2011, up from 491 cases in 2009. More than 300 incidents were recorded in the first half of 2012.
Christians are among the main targets, along with worshippers who follow the Ahmadiyah and Shiite Islamic minority sects.
Setara deputy director Bonar Tigor Naipospos said the permit issue was being used as an "excuse".
"The problem is the government has shown no political will to stop cases of intolerance in the country. It does not demand the law be upheld and that perpetrators are brought to account," he said.
The Batak Protestant Church has been at the forefront of attacks in the greater district of Bekasi. One congregation was pelted with rotten eggs and urine by Muslim hardliners who denied them entrance to their land, forcing them onto the street.
Naipospos said more of the 39 Batak Christian Protestant houses of worship in Bekasi were likely to face trouble as only 10 had been granted building permits.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/indonesian-city-tears-down-church-front-worshippers-112920503.html

Well he renounced the beast and its image and would not worship it so he was beheaded. I dont think there is anything else to be said. Rev 20:4 confirms this. But this was a long time ago though.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years.

@Vedaxcool, are we saying from this article that the new Pope is pro-islam? Since he obviously objected to Pope Benedict's University of Regensburg lecture....I guess I wasnt far off the point when i thought the new pope will be pro-islam and my bets were on Angelo Scola.

Many ways to skin a cat.

Sadly Frosbel is on point. I dont agree with him on some things but even I heard that speech. I listened again to be sure of what he said and yes the Madonna bit just threw me. The bible says Jesus is coming to rapture a church without spot or wrinkle (not madonna).

Someone accused him (Frosbel) of pride, but pride here will be constantly hearing the truth and not walking away from because of history or sentiment.

And for me I admit I got it wrong about who was going to be elected Pope. He was not one of the favourites.

Mormonism has been in Nigeria for as long as I can remember. And I definitely remember them walking on the streets with their (briefcases) in white shirts and black trousers (in pairs mostly) with their name tags on their shirts. There was a church near my school in Ondo in 1989. Their missionaries I guess from the states usually drove Nissan Sunny cars.

Frosbel, me I no get you sha...I am not a catholic so I do not subscribe to their doctrines. Reading the bible I am convinced that Jesus is God especially considering what Snowwy has posted. Lets not get carried away by semantics. Geewan and the Jehovah's witnesses are a different kettle of fish entirely.

Geewan, you cannot use the Quran to prove that Jesus is not God. That is another discussion for a different thread. Jesus Christ is not Isa of the Quran.

Excellent, we have a Jehaovah's witnesses and Muslim on this thread who deny the essence of Christ.

@Geewan Hebrews 1:2 further answers your question Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Everything was made through Jesus Christ including you and I as well as your prophet.

The Jehovah's witness argument is all about Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1. Almighty God and Mighty God. If Christ is not the Almighty God and just a Mighty God, why is He referred to as Everlasting Father? Why is He referred to as Immanuel (God with us)?

I need your clarification on this before we go further. I'm currently having the same discussion with a Jehovah's witness that came to my house 2 weeks ago (at my invitation of course).

The people looking for African Pope should go and look at what these candidates stand for. Then they will have an idea who the next Pope will be. Choosing a Pope is about populism and not about doctrine of Christ. The next pope will be very accommodating to a lot of things (definitely not a conservative or African candidates). You guys can speculate and pray all you want...

@Geewan, this is not the first time this question has been asked. I know the muslim line, that is why I am asking you the question why Allah had to declare Mohammed a warner.

@Ikanium, if you are deeper life then you should know...

I do not know if the OP is an Atheist, Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim. I would want to lean on the second two because Atheist do not normally ask these type of questions.

@Geewan, please tell me why Allah had to declare that Mohammed is a warner/prophet

This is my new project, written off by because of a minor damage, got it dirt cheap from salvage auction. Might keep after I'm done doing her up (just needs some tidying up)

Enilove, thanks for the exposition....and thanks for the Proverbs 8 passage. A Jehovahs witness actually pointed it out to me today which ended up backfiring against him.

If we want to be honest with ourselves, we should find out the attributes of the God of Judaism, God of Christianity and God of Islam. If they have the same attributes then yes, they are the same God. If not, then they are not same God.

I think we have proved that here severally. God of Judaism and God of Christianity has children that call Him Abba Father. The God of Islam does not have children. There are many more differences but i'll stop here for now.

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; Rev 18:4

He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit (and the signs) are saying..

The African cardinal widely tipped to be the first black pope in modern history faced a firestorm of criticism last night after he laid the blame for clerical sex abuse crises at the feet of gay priests.
Cardinal Peter Turkson, who comes from Ghana, told an American journalist that similar sex scandals would never convulse churches in Africa because the culture was inimical to homosexuality.
‘African traditional systems kind of protect or have protected its population against this tendency,’ he told Christiane Amanpour of CNN.
‘Because in several communities, in several cultures in Africa homosexuality or for that matter any affair between two sexes of the same kind, are not countenanced in our society,’ he continued.
‘So that cultural taboo, that tradition has been there,’ said Cardinal Turkson, 64. ‘It has served to keep it out.’
As the head of a major Vatican department – the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace - Cardinal Turkson is ranked as the 5/2 second favourite to take the papal crown when a Conclave of Cardinals meets next month to elect a successor to Pope Benedict XVI, who announced his abdication last week on the grounds of ill health
Catholics throughout the African continent and the developing world are praying that he will be chosen ahead of the Italian Cardinal Angelo Scola, the Archbishop of Milan, who Paddy Power has made its 9/4 favourite.
But his public comments blaming homosexual priests in for the sexual abuse of many hundreds of children in Europe, the United States and Australia mean his election would be severely criticised in the West.

Ruth Hunt, Stonewall director of public affairs, was among those to swiftly condemn his remarks.
‘Cardinal Turkson’s comments show a surprisingly callous disregard for the human rights of millions of people worldwide,’ she told the Times.
The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests accused the cardinal of hiding behind a ‘weak shield’.

A spokesman said: ‘We hear less about clergy sex crimes and cover ups in Africa for the same reasons we do throughout the developing world - there tends to be lesser funding for law enforcement, less vigorous civil justice systems, less independent journalism, and an even greater power and wealth difference between church officials and their congregants.’
But one NHS psychiatrist who has researched the field of clerical sex abuse agreed with the cardinal that homosexual abuse of adolescent males rather than paedophile attacks on children characterised the problem.

‘I would say he is correct,’ said the doctor, who asked not to be named in fear of reprisals - including the loss of his job.
‘Where the research has been done – for example in the United States and Australia – in the region of 80 per cent of the victims of sex abuse by priests are adolescent males rather than children.’
Pope Benedict XVI has been careful to avoid publicly demonising gay priests over the crisis, focusing instead on meeting and apologising to victims.
Very soon into his pontificate, however, he tightened up the Church’s recruitment rules to make it nearly impossible for gay men to enter seminaries as trainee priests.
In a possible further indication of the Vatican thinking, one of his most senior cardinals also laid the blame for the abuse crisis squarely at the feet of gay priests.
Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican Secretary of State – and the 5/1 third favourite to succeed Benedict XVI - said that some psychiatrists had found a relationship between homosexuality and paedophilia.
‘That is the problem,’ he said.
Amid the backlash, the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales issued a statement contradicting the cardinal by arguing that ‘there is no empirical data which concludes that sexual orientation is connected to child sexual abuse’.
Cardinal Turkson is no stranger to controversy, having offended Muslims last year by accusing them of turning Europe into an Islamic continent. This is another minus against him


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281411/Cardinal-Peter-Turkson-blames-gay-priests-abuse-scandals-facing-Catholic-church.html

7/1 Cardinal Angelo Scola, 71
Country: Italy
Elevated to become Archbishop of Milan by Benedict XVI
Significant views: Wants to work more closely with Islam and support Christians in the Middle East


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276884/Pope-Benedict-XVI-resigns-First-Pontiff-600-years-stand-longer-strength-carry-on.html

You have to read between the lines guys. I hope I'm wrong and i will be the first to put my hands up when a new Pope is elected. Angelo Scola is now favourite (he wasnt before) after 9 days

The next Pope will not be African. I feel Angelo Scola will be the next Pope. The issue is that the African cardinals are very "conservative" and the church wants to be all-inclusive to everybody. Are we about pleasing the population of the church so that we have the numbers and dumb down the doctrine or are we focussed on preaching the unadulterated the word of God....

Even the South American and Asian cardinals are perhaps more conservative than their European counterparts.

They can make all sorts of excuses about the Africans not being ready and some of us mights see racism at play but the its deeper than that. Its going to be about populist vote and who is seen to be building bridges. My 0.02 cents.

Well the Nairaland Islam section is a subset of exactly what is happening worldwide. The other side has to back down because they always have their way by resorting to violence or threats of violence....That should tell you something and no, you don't have to think to hard.

ah Corrado VR6...memories :-), definitely up for fun after my 205GTi

Hello Siena, sorry to hijack again.. Regarding the question I asked the last time about swapping out a 1.4 engine for an Audi A2 1.4 16v 75ps (not sourced one yet), will it be OK fitting a 100ps engine in A2? Will it pass emissions test? Not sure if there are compatibility issues especially with engine codes

I'm still dragging my feet on replacing/fixing the engine as the problem only becomes an issue when idling for more than 5 minutes or thereabout. When stuck in traffic, I tend to give it some throttle ever so often to prevent it from idling too long. I hear this is an issue with the 1.4 engines.

Your advice is appreciated. Thanks again.

The next pope will be Angelo Scola 71 (Archbishop of Milan)...Wait and see

@Alexis, me too i have been waiting oh...But in actual fact, we will wait forever because no one can produce such...If their scholars have not been able to produce such, then he definitely cannot do so...

I said on this board in the past 2 weeks or so, if you are patient enough they will dig a hole and trap themselves.

But doing dawah in the west is perfectly Ok. Shakes head...

Madam, thank you jare. Next time he wants to create such a thread he will create in the muslim section where we really cannot rebutt his claim else we get banned or our posts will be hidden

F00028, so who are Al-Jabbah and the likes of Ibn Ishaq? Are they not your earliest scholars? It doesnt agree with you and suddenly its their opinions. Sadly Surah 3:7 disagrees with you.

Reason why i asked the second question is that Al-Jalalayn and Al-Qurtubi disgree slightly with the third who was sent to strengthen them. Simon Peter was said to be the third. If you dont agree with the tafsir of Ibn Kathir and you want to choose Al-Qurtubi or Al-Jalalayn, it still asks the question, who sent the messengers? It definitely was not Allah. It was Christ that sent the three. A prophet cannot send messengers.

You said Allah did not reveal their names or town because its not important. If its not important, why was the verse revealed?

Before they begin to try and disprove the tafsir, you can see the chain of narrations (Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu`ayb Al-Jaba'i,) this proves its authenticity because its not just one person speaking it...

2 questions regarding this Surah 36:14 verse is who sent these messengers? Is it Allah or is it the Messiah? Clearly not Allah because we know that Simon and John and Paul were Apostles of Christ. But a prophet CANNOT send messengers! Mohammed did not send any messengers but Christ sent messengers and the Quran confirms this!

So if Christ can send messengers, that means Christ is God.

Second question Hadeeth Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet(SAW) said:

There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 37, No. 4310)

But Christ sent these messengers and they came before the messenger of Allah. Either Christ did not send these messengers or the messenger of Allah got his revelations mixed up. They cannot both be true.

Stalwert and F00028 please answer

@Stalwert & F00028, what you guys do not understand is that your Quran asks you to listen to your scholars. Who else to listen to but Ibn Kathir, Al-Qurtubi, Al-Jalalayn etc

Surah 3:7

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

This is the tafsir of Ibn Kathir, one of your greatest scholars/commentators on the Quran....If Ibn Kathir can say what he said, do you know better than Ibn Kathir? Read the commentary, it says of Surah 36:14 that 2 were sent (Shamun - Simon and Yuhanna -John) and they disbelieved them and they were strengthened by a third and his name was Bulus - Paul. Go and ask the Arabs what they call Paul in Arabic and the city was Antioch - Antakiyah. I waited for you to conclude in your minds that i did not know what i was saying.

Its up to you to accept that even your scholars had no issue with Paul the Apostle. A lot of questions raised here but i wait for you to come back...

When We sent to them two Messengers, they denied them both;
means, they hastened to disbelieve in them.
... فَعَزَّزْنَا بِثَالِثٍ ...
so We reinforced them with a third,
means, `We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.'
Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu`ayb Al-Jaba'i,
"The names of the first two Messengers were Sham`un and Yuhanna, and the name of the third was Bulus, and the city was Antioch (Antakiyah).
... فَقَالُوا ...
and they said,
means, to the people of that city,
... إِنَّا إِلَيْكُم مُّرْسَلُونَ ﴿١٤﴾
Verily, we have been sent to you as Messengers.
meaning, `from your Lord Who created you and Who commands you to worship Him Alone with no partners or associates.'
This was the view of Abu Al-Aliyah.
Qatadah bin Di`amah claimed that;
they were messengers of the Messiah, peace be upon him, sent to the people of Antioch.

http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/036%20Yasin.htm

But Allah said in Surah 36:14 that Paul was a messenger of Allah. Do you now disagree with Allah or what?

Surah 36:14 Sahih International
When We sent to them two but they denied them, so We strengthened them with a third, and they said, "Indeed, we are messengers to you."

36:14 When We (first) sent to them two apostles, they rejected them: But We strengthened them with a third: they said, "Truly, we have been sent on a mission to you."

Can you see that? Allah strengthened that with Paul. This means Paul is an apostle of Allah. If Paul is an apostle of Allah, what beef do you have with him?

Stalwert: ^
Looks like the trinity the father, the son and the holy spirit, similar to Hindu trinity which came way before Paul fantasies indeed. as usual they can defend their religion without rushing to hide behind the Qur'an! The greatest tragedy of the bible remains all the authors are anonymous individuals, infact the gospel bears no name of the writer, christians simply named anonymous book by any name they thought fit, I wonder what the gospel according to Luke means? Why not the gospel by luke? Off course those who print the bible would tell u point black, we really don't know who wrote what, yet Christians stake their salvation on anonymous individuals . . . Confusion galore indeed!

I will ask again, what is the issue with Paul?

This is supposed to be word of God. Umar bin Al-Khattab tells Mohammed something, Mohammed likes it and suddenly Allah reveals it to Mohammed JUST AS UMAR SAID IT. Allah must have liked what Umar mentioned to Mohammed. Is he all knowing and wise?

Hadeeth No 396 Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab

My Lord agreed with me in three things:
1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)
2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.
3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume1, Book 8, Number 396

(Surah 2:125) Sahih International
And [mention] when We made the House a place of return for the people and [a place of] security. And take, [O believers], from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer. And We charged Abraham and Ishmael, [saying], "Purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who are staying [there] for worship and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer]."

Surah 24:31 Sahih International
And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.

Surah 66:5 Sahih International
Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.

these can fit anybody.Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 11:2
Isaiah 16:5
Haggai 2:9

Madam Plappville, i think you should leave this guys with their delusions. There has to be something else behind not believing Isaiah 9:6 of all verses in the bible.

I posted on a thread that ParisLove open in the Islam section. It was there for 2-3 days before someone saw fit to hide it. I knew it probably was going to be hidden so i made a copy of it

@Paris_Love, actually you will not find those verses because its one of those verses that are missing from the recompiled Quran

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, ‘We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) IN THE HOLY BOOK,’ and consequently they may GO ASTRAY by leaving AN OBLIGATION that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal intimate intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816)

This can mean the verses were there before but are no longer there
This means the quran is incomplete (obvious) and that means their is corruption somewhere because verses are no longer there
Also Umar knowing those verses existed once before, why did he not add them when recompiling the quran?

But Allah promised to guard his revelation in Surah 15:9, and i quote, we have without doubt sent down the message (my emphasis, the verses of stoning were sent down) and we will assuredly guard it from corruption.

There is an obvious corruption because thoses verses are missing, therefore are not guarded from corruption.

Please explain.