₦airaland Forum

hisblud: hello berny, thanks for posting it here and welcome. it seems my dear jman05 is too stumped to answer queries about what he believes and he might opt out. unfortunately, u r not jw but sha we will continue. since you were not able to answer my question directly... let me post your answer to your question...

Please permit me to contribute to this discussion.
Jehovah is the supreme being and no one can ultimately change his plans or make his purpose go unfulfilled, he will still achieve what he wants to achieve. But some people whom God had intended to use for some purpose had failed and so sometimes he adjusts his plans to accommodate such but still ultimately achieve his purpose.

His purpose with respects to the Ninevites was to destroy them because they were wicked, but the moment they repented, the purpose was no longer needed. God is not rigid and unreasonable, the reason why he wanted to destroy them was no longer there, so there was no justification for the destruction any longer.

Another example is that of King Hezekiah, Isaiah in no uncertain terms told him that God said he was going to die....In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, 'Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.'" 2kings 20:1

But when Hezekiah begged and prayed, God changed his decision and extended his life by 15 more years.

Another example is that of Josiah, God told Hezekiah that he was going to bring calamity on Judah during the reigns of his sons but Hezekiah, Hezekiah said no problem, it is good, so far the calamity did not occur in his own days. The calamity did not occur in the days of Manasseh although he was taken into captivity and later repented.

But in the days of Josiah, a grandson of Manasseh and a good King of Israel..what did the Bible say.. 2 kings 22:19,20

19because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants that they should become a desolation and a curse, and you have torn your clothes and wept before Me, I truly have heard you," declares the LORD. 20"Therefore, behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes will not see all the evil which I will bring on this place."'" So they brought back word to the king.

New Living Translation
So I will not send the promised disaster until after you have died and been buried in peace. You will not see the disaster I am going to bring on this city.'" So they took her message back to the king.

Obviously from those verses, calamity has been decreed upon Jerusalem in the days of Josiah but his humility and piety made God push the calamity forward or possibly am not being dogmatic about this at all am just saying possibly God allowed Josiah to die early (killed by Pharoah necho at the young age of 39) so that the calamity can still occur as scheduled, eventually the calamity occurred in the days of his sons.

There is also the example of Abraham and the city of Gomorrah, Even though calamity and destruction had already been decreed upon Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked if God would spare the city if the cities had at least 10 righteous people. God said he would spare the city unfortunately the cities did not have up to 10 people.

Jesus even said that because of the chosen ones 'the days would be cut short'...So Jehovah can adjust his plans to eventually achieve his ultimate goal. We know everything he does would always be in line with his righteous principles and to our best interests, that's the confidence we have.

Thanks so much Jman05. I appreciate your action. The path of the righteous ones and our understanding of the scriptures keeps getting brighter and brighter until the day is firmly established i.e until all knowledge has been revealed and fully understood as far as it is humanly possible because there would always be something to learn about Jehovah.

What some people dont know is that we love to know more about God and do his will....we strive to advance our knowledge of his will further and we will continue to do.

JMAN05: ok, so where did he say that 607 BCE is generally accepted Chief Executive of Liars Association?



Dont divert. where did he say that 607 BCE is generally accepted? okwu e bie!!

Hi Jman05....i appreciate your perseverance and all the interesting things you have quoted above, i just want to implore you to please leave out the insults...., its not necessary, it detracts from what is being discussed and it definitely offensive to the person being addressed. In the course of discussing the Bible there is absolutely no need to quarrel or abuse.

While some people tried to get under our skin and even insult us, we should try not not return the insults...proverbs 17:14said 'before the quarell burst forth take your leave.
Its better not to have the discussion than to engage in quarrelling and insults.

Cheers man

hisblud: thanks but no link is provided.

Russell was replying one of his readers who asked him a question and his response was what i pasted above. The response was published in the Watch Tower, September 15, 1914, pages 286, 287 (Reprints, page 5543)

hisblud: thanks but no link is provided.

This is taken from the Watch Tower, September 15, 1914, pages 286, 287.

From all the statements of Russell, we can see that he was a sincere Bible student who kept on studying the Bible seeking to gain fuller understanding till his death. He interacted with a lot of preachers and other Bible students to know more about the deep things of God. He gave credit to those he learn some things from and when he disagreed with them on any point he explains himself as much as he can.

HE NEVER SAID HE WAS A PROPHET NOR WAS HE PROPHESYING....he only said from his studies these are the things he is expecting to happen and even if his expectations are wrong...he said they i.e Bible students will keep on practising peace and holiness....

It is mischievous clergymen of different faiths who ganged up against him that keeps twisting all his statements and even falsifying his court statements in the press to malign Russell and fulfil their own purpose.

In 1914 (Around January):
Evidently in response to those who were claiming that Russell was expecting the end of the world in 1914, early in 1914 Russell released the article in “The Bible Students Monthly”, entitled: “End of the Word in 1914 – Not the View of Pastor Russell, Nor of the I.B.S.A.” Russell was not expecting the end of the world in 1914.

In 1914 (Before October):
Suppose that the Gentile Times should end in October, 1914, what would be the logical thing to expect? Well, I am not sure what to expect.[i][/i] {Page Q89} We could not be sure, we would not know, whether it would take the Lord fifteen minutes or fifteen days or fifteen years to put out the kingdoms of this world. — What Pastor Russell Said, Question 79:1.

A lot of opposing clergymen twisted what russell actually preached so as to discredit him and for people to be antagonized against him. They did this while he was still very much alive and he severally defended himself but those stories and accusations kept on being passed on. I am going to use Russell's reply to show what he 'EXPECTED' [/b]and not what he prophesied.

Up until 1904 Russell had continued to accept Barbour’s view that the time of trouble was to end, not begin, in 1914. In 1904, Russell rejected his earlier view, and he came to realize that “the time of trouble” was to begin, not end, in 1914.
These are few brief quotes below that most directly show Russell’s expectations between 1904 up to 1914, as well as some statements after 1914.
The announcement of his change of view in 1904:

We now expect that the anarchistic culmination of [b]the great time of trouble which will precede the Millennial blessings will be after October, 1914 A.D.–very speedily thereafter, in our opinion –”in one hour,” “suddenly.” — Universal Anarchy: Just Before or After October, 1914 A.D.? ZWT, July 1, 1904, page 197, Reprints 3389.

He plainly states in that article that he had come to believe that the the time of trouble will be “after [not before, as he had previously assumed] October, 1914 A.D.” This is the opposite of the view he had held before.

Again, in 1904:
The fourth testimony of the angel respecting the great time of trouble closing “the time of the end” is not yet fulfilled; but on every hand we can see that the precedent conditions are ripening. This fourth feature is expressed in the words, “And there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.” From other prophetic Scriptures we glean that this great trouble lies 10 years in the future. It will be ushered in at the expiration of what the Scriptures designate the “times of the Gentiles,” October, 1914 A.D. — “Lessons Drawn From St. Louis Exposition”, October 2, 1904, Pittsburgh Gazette.

Here Brother Russell again speaks of that “time of trouble” as not coming before 1914, as he had assumed before his change of viewpoint in 1904, but that it would be “ushered in at the expiration of what the Scriptures designate the ‘time of the Gentiles,’ October 1914 A.D.”

In 1910:
I believe October, 1914, is the time when we may expect that great time of trouble, because it seems to our judgment, as far as we can understand the Scriptures, that is the time when the Gentile period of lease, or tenure, will expire, and when, therefore, we may expect that the time of trouble shall be ushered in; and that time of trouble we understand is the one the Scriptures tell about–a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, a time of trouble which shall overwhelm all sorts of government, and every institution of the present time; and a time of trouble which thus will make ready and prepare mankind for the glorious reign of Christ and his Church, for the blessing and uplifting of all the families of the earth. — What Pastor Russell Said, Question 555:4 (1910).

In 1910:
Nineteen hundred and fourteen is the time when the “Gentile Times” will end. What does that mean? I do not know, but I think it is when God lets go in a general sense of the word, and permits things to take their course; [/b]and we can readily suppose, as the Apostle says, that the course of nature would be set on fire, because of strife. In the world of mankind, I shall expect a time of great trouble, which the Bible marks out as having its beginning about October, 1914. — What Pastor Russell Said, Question 76:1 (1910).

In 1911:
Our readers know that for some years we have been expecting this Age to close with an awful time of trouble, and we expect it to break out with suddenness and force not long after October, 1914, which, [b]so far as we can understand the Scriptures, is the date at which the Times of the Gentiles –the lease of earth’s dominions to the Gentiles–will expire.[endquote] — “Loosing the Four Winds of Heaven”, May 15, 1911, page 146, Reprints 4822.

In 1912:
We are expecting in October, 1914, that a great change will be due. Now, how quickly will it come? Whether on the stroke of the clock or not we do not know. We believe that it will land upon humanity by that time. Perhaps some of it will come before that, but we believe it will be stayed off until that time. Now, dear friends, what if it does not? We are just as well off as the rest. That is what the Bible states. If it does not state that to you, we have no quarrel. And if it does not come we will not try to bring it about. But, on the contrary, we will try to practice peace and holiness withal. We are children of peace and peacemakers, not strife breeders. But we believe the Bible teaches October, 1914, as the time. If that is incorrect for a year, or five, or one hundred years, no matter, it is coming some time, whether we have it right or not. — Convention Sermons Report.
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/Russell/CONVRPRT/crs.pdf

hisblud: Thank you Jman05, no long grammer...So my dear which bible was used ... NOT NWT... which did russell use...?

This is a part of a letter russell sent to a reader and it answers this question.

As respects my education in Greek and Hebrew: Not only do I not claim very special knowledge of either language, but I claim that not one minister in a thousand is either a Hebrew or a Greek scholar. To be able to spell out a few Greek words is of no earthly value. Nor is it necessary longer to study these languages, in order to have knowledge of the Bible. Our Presbyterian friends have gotten out at great cost Young’s Analytical Hebrew, Chaldaic, Greek and English Lexicon Concordance, which anyone may procure. And our Methodist friends have issued a similar work– Strong’s Analytical Concordance and Lexicon. And there is a still older one entitled Englishman’s Hebrew, Chaldaic, Greek and English Lexicon and Concordance.
Additionally, Liddell and Scott’s Greek Lexicon is a standard authority. The prices of these are not beyond the reach of the average man. By these works scholarly information respecting the original text of the Bible is obtainable. I have all four of these works and have used them faithfully. Very few college professors, even, would risk to give a critical translation of any text of Scripture without consulting these very works of reference, which are standard. To merely learn to read the Greek and Hebrew without a six years’ course in their grammars is more likely to hinder than to help in Bible study; far better take the acknowledged scholarship to which I have referred.

Additionally I remind you of the many translations of the Bible now extant–all of them very good. I have all of these and find them useful in comparison in the study of any text–one sometimes giving a thought which another may not. The other day, for curiosity’s sake, I counted Bibles in different translations, etc., in my study and found that I have thirty-two.


The NWT was published decades later.

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Make den give you gun, still come show u sexkillz house, when you reach dia, no ask den wetin make u do o.

The case of the Miracle wheat

It was said that In 1913, Russell unsuccessfully sued The Brooklyn Daily Eagle for libel when that paper exposed his fraudulent attempts to sell ordinary wheat at the exorbitant price of $60 a bushel, claiming it was "Miracle Wheat.''

What actually happened.

In the year 1911 J.A. Bohnet, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and Samuel J. Fleming, of Wabash, Indiana, each having a quantity of Miracle Wheat, together presented to the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY the aggregate of about 30 bushels with the proposition on their part that the wheat should be sold at $1.00 per pound and all the proceeds arising from the sale thereof should be received by the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY as a donation from them, to be used by said Society in its religious work. The wheat was received and sent out by the Society, and the gross receipts therefrom were about $l, 800.

Pastor Russell did not get a penny of this. His connection therewith was this, that he published a statement in his journal, The Watch Tower, giving notice that this wheat had been contributed and could be had for a dollar a pound.

Pastor Russell did not discover the wheat, nor did he name it, nor did he receive any personal benefit therefrom.

Pastor Russell sued The Eagle for damages. The facts given here are taken from the record of the trial of that case in the Supreme Court of Kings County, New York. Figures appearing in parentheses, thus (fol. 774, etc.), refer to folios of the printed record of the case now on file in the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of New York.
The chief issue raised by the pleadings in this case was whether or not the wheat in question was superior to ordinary wheat.

Eleven witnesses testified to its superior quality over other wheat.

Following are the names and addresses of the witnesses: Kent B. Stoner, Fincastle, Virginia; Joseph I. Knight, Sr., 1067 38th Street, BrookIyn, New York; Isaac L. Frey, Lower Mt. Bethel, Pennsylvania; Frederick Widener, Belvidere, N.J.; Henry D. Ayre, Cleveland, Tennessee; William Pray, Mansfield, N.J.; William I. Tomlinson, Kirkwood, N.J.; Edward W. Hunt, Stratford, N.J.; Dr. Joseph A. Carlton, Palmetto, Georgia; J.A. Bohnet, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Samuel J. Fleming, Wabash, Indiana.

The eight first named never heard of Pastor Russell or his religious teachings prior to the trial of this case, but had been experimenting with Miracle Wheat and found it far superior to any other wheat.

Mr. Stoner Mr. Knight went to Europe and exhibited the wheat in the agricultural departments of various countries (fols. 129-131). Neither Mr. Knight nor Mr. Stoner had ever corresponded with Pastor Russell, nor had any acquaintance with him or with any of his associates prior to the time of the trial (fols. 82, 154). Prior to his meeting Mr. Knight, Mr. Stoner had sold some of the wheat, always at $1.25 a pound (fols. 80, 83). In 1908 he sold four pounds at $1.25 a pound to Joseph A. Carlton, a dentist of Palmetto, Georgia, the owner of a 256-acre farm (fol. 162). In 1909 he sold two pounds to Frederick S. Widener, of Belvidere, N.J., for from somewhere between two and five dollars (fol. 396). Mr. Widener gave some of this to Isaac L. Frey, a farmer of Lower Mt. Bethel. Neither he nor Mr. Frey had any connection with Pastor Russell’s work (fols. 395, 387, 383).

William I. Tomlinson and Edward Hunt, farmers of New Jersey, also experimented with this wheat.

All of these persons who thus bought their wheat directly or indirectly from Stoner, the discoverer of the wheat, or from Knight, his partner, found it to have remarkable reproducing qualities (fols. 385-392, 396, 470, 1, 478-480).

The first plant found by Stoner had over 4,000 grains to the stool. In the Fall of 1904 he planted 1,800 grains, and each gram yielded an average of 250 grains. The average return from ordinary wheat in this section was about ten grains for each grain of seed (fols. 75-78). Mr. Stoner found that a peck to the acre, that is 15 pounds of Miracle Wheat, produced over forty bushels (fol. 88). He has raised as high as 80 bushels of Miracle Wheat to the acre (fol. 92).

Thus it is seen that Miracle Wheat produced twenty-five times as much as ordinary wheat in proportion to the amount sown.

Mr. Henry A. Ayre, a farmer of Cleveland, Tennessee, with thirty-five years’ experience, bought some Stoner (Miracle) Wheat in the fall of 1909 or 1910. He sowed one-half bushel to a scant seven-eighths of an acre and reaped a little over twenty-six bushels per acre. His is a poor wheat section, where the yield of ordinary wheat is about 8 bushels per acre.

Mr. Ayre found Miracle Wheat hardier than ordinary wheat, standing the winters better and stooling much more than any other wheat he ever saw. It stood a freezing winter where rye had frozen out (fols. 299-402). He had the surrounding farmers raise this wheat for him under contract (fol. 407). He raised as large as 64 stools from one plant of this wheat.

Miracle Wheat took first prize for him in the Fall of 1910 at the Appalachian Exposition, for Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina, and also took first prize at the State Fair in Tennessee, and at his county fair (fol. 406). He grew Exhibit 6, a stool of Miracle Wheat containing 49 stalks (fols. 408, 943).
PASTOR RUSSELL’S FIRST KNOWLEDGE OF MIRACLE WHEAT

On November 23, 1907, H.A. Miller, Assistant Agriculturist of the United States Government, filed in the Department of Agriculture at Washington, D.C., a report upon the wheat being grown upon Mr. Stoner’s farm, highly commending said wheat (fols. 1185-1188). The public press throughout the country at the time took notice of this report. Pastor Russell’s attention was called to it, and on March 15, 1908, he published in his journal, The Watch Tower, some press comments and extracts from the aforementioned Government report. This was Pastor Russell’s first knowledge of Miracle Wheat, which wheat Mr. Stoner and others had been experimenting with for three years or more.

Dr. Joseph A. Carlton, of Palmetto, Georgia, reading in Pastor Russell’s Watch Tower the aforementioned notice, purchased from Mr. Stoner four pounds of this wheat for which he paid Stoner $1.25 per pound, or $75 per bushel (fol. 169). He planted a pound and three-quarters to one-fifth of an acre, took accurate account of the yield, and found that it was eight bushels and 24 pounds, or 504 pounds. Georgia is not a wheat State (fols. 16@, 163). Yield of ordinary wheat in that State is from 5 to 20 bushels to the acre (fol. 164). In 1910 Dr. Carlton reaped 62 1/2 bushels of Miracle Wheat from a little over two acres (fol. 165). From one single grain in his field 71 stalks were grown (fol. 168).
Mr. Bohnet got a peck of this wheat from Dr. Carlton. He sowed 14 pounds to one-half an acre and reaped 8 bushels. One-half of this he sent to Mr. Kuesthardt, of Port Clinton, Ohio, editor of the Ottawa Zeitung, a German county newspaper. Samuel J.

Fleming, of Wabash, Indiana, got five pounds of seed from Bohnet and 20 pounds from Kuesthardt, and sowed 25 pounds to about one acre of land, and although it was late in the season his yield was 34 bushels. Average yield of ordinary wheat in that section (sowed a bushel and a half to the acre) is about 20 bushels (fol. 234).

The Brooklyn Eagle, to offset all this testimony of practical farmers and wheat raisers, produced but a single witness, namely, Mr. Ball, of the Agricultural Department of the United States Government, who was neither a farmer nor wheat raiser.

Mr. Ball testified that he was "connected with the U.S. Government with the Department of Agriculture as an Agronomist and Acting Cerealist in charge of cereal investigations" (fol. 732). His imposing title was about his only recommendation. He produced a memoranda of experiments with Miracle Wheat, supposed to have been made at the Government station, by persons whom he was unable to name.

There was absolutely no testimony in the case showing that Pastor Russell had induced a single person to purchase Miracle Wheat. Not a word tending to show that anyone was defrauded, On the contrary, shortly after the publication of the libel by the Brooklyn Eagle, the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY published broadcast over the country and sent to each purchaser a notice that if anyone was dissatisfied with his purchase he might have his money returned, and the identical money arising from the sale of said wheat was held for a year for the purpose of refunding. Not a single person asked to have his money refunded.

The jury, being largely composed of men of strong religious prejudices, and at least one of them an atheist, disregarded the testimony of the 11 practical farmers and wheat raisers, and the several exhibits of Miracle Wheat actually produced and shown to them, and decided the case in favor of the Brooklyn Eagle, upon the unsupported testimony of one Government official who never raised a grain of wheat in his life.

In 1906 Russell ' s wife successfully sued for divorce because of "his conceit, egotism, domination and improper conduct in relation to other women," and won a settlement of $6,036. The court severely censured Russell and called his conduct "insulting," "domineering" and "overbearing" to a degree which made life intolerable to a sensitive Christian woman.

This is another distortion of what happened between CT Russell and his wife by the same Rev Ross. This is what Rev Ross said:
"He (Pastor Russell) sought to evade payment fixed by the court by fleeing from one State to another, making it necessary for his wife to get an extradition order, which she did, and which led to the condemnation of the cunning pastor by a third court, and the increase of the alimony."

This is what happened.

Rev. Ross probably did not know that extradition proceedings cannot be resorted to enforce a money judgment. No "extradition order" was made, nor were there any extradition proceedings. Upon the hearing of the question of alimony, the Court adjudged that Mrs. Russell should receive from her husband the sum of $100 per month. This order was made March 4, 1908. The amount of alimony was never increased.

In the early part of the winter of 1908 arrangements were made to transfer the main office of the Bible Society’s work to Brooklyn, New York, for the reasons heretofore stated. Some time was required to accomplish this work, but the removal, which was open and above board, was completed in March, 1909. The Pittsburgh papers made mention of the removal. Pastor Russell remained in Pittsburgh until everything was removed that was to be removed, himself being the last one of the office force to leave Pittsburgh. No attempt was made to interfere with the removal, as indeed there could not have been any successful attempt.

In December, 1908, Mrs. Russell filed certain suits to set aside the transfer of property made by her husband to the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, and to enforce the payment of alimony.

Prior thereto, at a hearing of the testimony on the alimony branch of the separation case, Pastor Russell had testified that before the organization of the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, both he and his wife having consecrated their all to be used in the religious work in which they were engaged in serving the Lord, it was agreed between them that all of his property should be turned over to the WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, FOR THAT PURPOSE. The property was his and he had the right to do with it as he pleased. That after their separation, acting in good faith and in harmony with their said agreement, he had transferred his property to said Society, and that he had not the means with which to pay the amount of alimony allowed by the Court. The personal property had already been exhausted by the Society.
Early in April, 1909, and after said Society and Pastor Russell had removed to Brooklyn, the aforesaid cases came on for hearing on motions, Mr. Carpenter and myself appearing on behalf of said Society and Pastor Russell. After hearing the motions, the Court took the matter under advisement and afterwards decided it, holding that Mr. Russell’s transfer of the property to the Society was a fraud on his wife and that the alimony must be paid. As it is well understood, a man’s act may operate as a legal fraud against another, even though he acts in absolute good faith. Besides, court decisions are not infallible, as we all know, because rendered by imperfect human beings. At the time of the rendition of this decision, Pastor Russell’s residence was in Brooklyn, but he at the time was in Europe, on his semi-annual lecture tour of Great Britain. He had not been advised of the decision of the Court upon this point. He stated to me prior thereto that he would be glad to pay Mrs. Russell, but he had no money, which fact I knew to be true.

During the absence of Pastor Russell in Europe, as aforesaid five men, his personal friends, without his knowledge, ascertained the amount of money required to meet the judgment of alimony. They raised more than the necessary amount among themselves, placed it in my hands and sent me to Pittsburgh to pay this judgment. I went to Pittsburgh and with Mrs. Russell’s attorneys settled all the litigation, paying to her every cent, interest included, which the court had allowed her, together with all the court costs. These facts appear from the court records. Mrs. Russell has never been cheated or defrauded out of one penny by her husband, but has received everything that the court allowed her.

We submit that the furnishing of more than $10,000 by his five friends to relieve him of a judgement as above mentioned, and that without his knowledge, is a strong testimony of the high esteem in which Pastor Russell is held by those who know him.

So these personal of properties of Russell were long pledged to be donated by Russell and his wife to the work of God, and after their separation, he donated the properties, his wife on hearing about it later sued for alimony. She was awarded a settlement of 6000 dollars which Russell could not even pay because he had given out all his properties, it was his friends that gathered the money and paid for him and then a monthly payment of 100 dollars was also awarded which he kept paying from his allowance. He acted in good faith and was not an attempt at defrauding his wife.

This was what led to their separation.

DOMESTIC TROUBLES

Pastor Russell was married in 1879. For the first thirteen years of their married life he and Mrs. Russell lived happily together. They were both engaged in religious work, and had been even before their marriage. A semi-monthly religious journal, THE WATCH TOWER, was published, of which Pastor Russell was and still is the editor. She became dissatisfied with his manner of conducting this journal and attempted to dictate the policy thereof. Being the head of the house, Pastor Russell would not submit to his wife’s dictating the manner of conducting his business affairs. Without notice, she voluntarily separated herself from him in 1897, nearly eighteen years after their marriage. For nearly seven years she lived separate and apart from him, he furnishing her a separate home.

In June, 1903, she filed in the Court of Common Pleas at Pittsburgh a suit for legal separation. They had been actually separated for nearly seven years. In April, 1906, the cause came on for trial before Justice Collier and a jury.

It has been remarked by a number of lawyers who have read the record in this case that "no court has ever before granted a separation upon so slight testimony as appears in this case."

The record discloses nothing except a misunderstanding between husband and wife, and which at one time was adjusted, by mutual consent. The issue being submitted to the jury they evidently concluded that, being already actually separated for a period of seven years, a legal separation might as well take place.

That Mrs. Russell herself did not believe and never has believed that her husband was guilty of immoral conduct is shown by the record in this case where her own counsel (on page 10) asked Mrs. Russell this question: "You don’t mean that your husband was guilty of adultery?" Ans. "No."

There never has been an absolute divorce of either of the parties.

Flawed Character
Rev. J.J. Ross published a pamphlet that exposed Russell's false claims and doctrines. He revealed that Russell "never attended the higher schools of learning; knows comparatively nothing of philosophy, systematic or historical theology; and is totally ignorant of the [biblical] languages [i.e. Hebrew and Greek]". Ross concluded that Russell's teaching was "anti-rational, anti-scientific, anti-Biblical, [and] anti-Christian." Russell unsuccessfully tried to stop circulation of this damaging information by suing Rev. Ross for defamatory libel. However, he not only lost the suit, but in the process perjured himself in court when he lied under oath about his knowledge of the Greek language. In the end Russell admitted the statements about himself in the pamphlet were true.[color=#550000]

Now let me state that CT Russell is a man that was seeking the truth of the scriptures and he consulted with several people, clergymen and others of his time so that they can all gain a better understanding of the scriptures....They got a lot of things right and some they were wrong about but they still kept on studying the scriptures to gain a better understanding....till today....the study of the scriptures continues and the light still keeps getting brighter and brighter until the day becomes firmly established....Prov 4:18
The Man himself has the frailties of all humans but lies and lies and lies were said about him to discredit him.

The Ross Libel

Rev. J. J. Ross, of Hamilton, Ontario, published a libelous pamphlet against Pastor Russell. A warrant was issued for the arrest of Ross. He evaded the officer for some time and even failed to keep his appointment at his church to prevent the officer from taking him into custody. Finally, he was taken before George E. Jelfs, Police Magistrate, on the charge of criminal libel. Upon a hearing he was committed for trial. Upon motion, the Superior Court quashed the commitment because of a technical error the proceedings. Ross was again taken before the Magistrate.

When the case came on for hearing the second time Pastor Russell, who was a necessary witness, was away on an extended trip in Panama and other parts of the South, filling appointments previously made, and had no notice of the date of hearing. Ross and his counsel tried to make it appear that Pastor Russell was evading the trial. As soon as Pastor Russell returned to Brooklyn and heard that he was wanted he immediately notified the Magistrate that he was ready to come to Canada. He did go and gave his testimony. Again the Magistrate committed Ross to appear before the high court to answer an indictment to be preferred by the Grand Jury. When the case came on in that court the Judge of the court in charging the Grand Jury relative to its duties, among other things, said to the jury: "Unless the jury finds that this alleged libel would cause a breach of the public peace in Canada then no indictment should be returned, but the parties should resort to civil suit for damages." The jury returned "no bill," and it is manifest that they could not have done otherwise under this charge of the Court, for the reason that Pastor Russell lived in Brooklyn, New York, and Rev.

Ross lived in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, and it would be physically impossible for the libel to cause a breach of the public peace when the parties were so far apart.

Thus it will be seen that the issues were never tried and never determined. Pastor Russell did not resort to civil action for damages, for the reason that he was advised that such an action would be useless, since Ross is irresponsible financially and could not be compelled by such a proceeding to publish a retraction.

SOME OF THE WITNESSES Row 1—J.A. Robinson, M.D., Taunton, Mass.; J.W. Doane, Supt., Truro, N.S.; M.S. Davis, Teacher, Orange Cal.; A.M. Zimmerman, Mfr., Lancaster, Pa.; G.W. Evans, Halifax, N.S.; A.F. Oberg, Mcht., Cromwell, Ct.; C.W. Stambaugh, Mfr., Demorest, Ga.

Row 2—I.I. Margeson, Pomologist, Boston, Mass.; A.B. Landrum, Photographer, Waco, Tex.; J.F. Davault, Mfr. Anna, Ill.; W.H. Meneray, Rancher, Winnipeg, Man.

Row 3—W. Hall, M.D., Wilmington, N.C.; F.G. Mason, Ins., Springfield, Mass.; E.B. Douglas, Undtkr., Chelsea, Mass.; H.R. Smith, Mfr., Wichita, Kas., D.E. Dilts, Frederick, Okla.; M.S. Workman, Rep., Boston, Mass.; E.W.V. Kuehn, Mcht., Toledo, O.

Those stories and outright lies you called 'amazing facts' are just wicked lies used to malign CT Russell. I am going to shed more lights some of those cases cited so that sincere people can see the true story. i am not going to bother with the doctrinal issues because those have been discussed a thousand times..even though some things we never teach are also mentioned there just to discredit us.

Contactman: i liked those amazing facts you just mentioned about Jehovah's Witnesses. Could you please mail them to me @ mandavoo@yahoo.com thanx

Those are not facts, they are orchestrated lies engineered by the leading clergymen using the press to repeatedly hound CT Russell.

Ozichim: Don't misunderstand the thing, When you reference Jesus Christ you are actually referencing God (the same person). That is why if you honor Jesus you are honoring the Father.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

NB: God does not share His Glory with any man or anybody

JW doesn’t honor the Father because they don’t honor the Son.

If Christ is the one reigning now then does it mean that Christ is above God now;
ie So until Christ has finished conquering every enemy including death, Christ is equal/above God.
Or for now Christ is not under God or is above God until the last enemy is distroyed; see yourself.

That place (1 Cir 15:25-28) is referring to the end of time when after everything; Satan, his agents and sinners would have been judged, the new earth and new Heaven would have descended and God will now be all and all and will reign forever.
There will not be need for salvation, so the need for Christ name to be used then is not relevant after this. Let me ask you before Christ was born, it was only God’s name (Jehovah, Yahweh etc) that was been used then, So were was Christ.
Remember Christ said that before Abraham He was.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

So it was after and for the purpose of salvation that Christ was made manifest. So when God has finished everything about salvation everything about Jesus Christ will be referred to God only.
Infarct, He is the same as God, subjecting Himself under God is what He has been doing even why He was in earth.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So don’t be confused, Christ has been reigning since and He has always put himself below God, but He is the same person (God)

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

So if Christ is Alpha and Omega, then what is God? So If He is not under God now and He is resigning, where is He now?
Mr man He is the same person.
JW should drop their demonic doctrine; Repent or you perish.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

There is nothing confusing in the Bible.

Don't misunderstand the thing, When you refrence Jesus Christ you are actually referencing the same person. That is why if you hounour Jesus you are honouring the Father.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Jesus christ was a messenger from God and the Jews refused to accept him but they claim they worship, honour and love God, But Jesus was telling them that if you dont honour me who God sent then you are not honouring the person that sent me. That does not make Jesus his father, what he said is that if you disrespect me you disrespect who i came to represent. Even in the human diplomacy, it is the same. The ambassador represents the country, the messenger represents the king that sends him, if you attack the embassy of a country, you are attacking the country. JWs honour Jesus christ very well, but if you think making him God almighty is honour....it is not, it is blasphemy.

Christ is reigning with the authority of God, he derives his legitimacy, power and authority from God, So how can he be above him that gave him the authority...there is nowhere in the scriptures where God placed himself under Christ...he is always depicted in a lower position to God in all references to him...He is always seen at the right hand of God, never on Gods throne.
Before Abraham..before the the creation of anything else....Jesus christ has existed for uncountable number of years with his father in heaven...(islam does not teach any of these, so please stop lumping us with islam)

I Have to go now i will talk on the alpha and omega expressions later

Ozichim: JW is just about 176 or a little more year old. Christians fighting war does not mean that they were sent by God to fight. There have always been wars and politics that affected Christians.
Christians have been mattered so many times before, God always know how to handle the devil and glorify Himself in the end. Don't accuse Christians about any war; war will always affect them in one way or the other.
If Christians should start to defend themselves; War will start in Nigeria. Many Christians are ignorant of devises of the enemy, which I'm sure you know if you are a Christian.
Christians have never fought any war as a Church, but as a country or tribe or politics.

That JW does not do those things doesn’t make them true bible preachers.
Yes Christian may support any action against any action that may affect them negatively. There by siding one party or the other in a war.

Christians can’t just support the Killing of other Christian by Boko Haram in the North. So, If war starts because Christians refuse to convert to Islam then they are now fighting war. Of course check this out yourself, JW will not join Christians in anything, but they can join Islam or other religion to destroy Christianity.
Find out about this.

You were the one that mentioned that if Christians are peace lovers and that if Xtians were interested in wars, Islam and Jehovah's Withnesses would have all perished.
The truth Jesus taught was that we should not engage in warfare but history has shown that 'christians' or christian nations has been interested in wars as much as anybody else which is not what Jesus taught. Whereas the Jehovah's Witnesses you mentioned have been known to refrain from all forms of warfare.

That would be too hasty...but they can bring on a few of them to join the home-based super eagles and watch things. one or two of them can be included in the home-based eagles.
The super eagles left full-back is a weak-link, Echiejile is not that good and i would love to see how okon can be tried over time to see if he can fit in.

Booshman: Sorry, I had a feeling I was getting into "the realm of the unanswerable" with my questions. Didn't mean to pry. Just wanted to get as many details as I could, before I needed to fill in the holes with my own stuff.

Also, thanks for the pronunciations. I was more on the right track than I thought.

And surprisingly, I've heard of Obos before; from a fascinating book I read entitled "Kings, Magic, and Medicine" by Chief Dr. Daryl M. Peavy. Who was an American that studied Edo Medicine under an Esan native doctor for years. Where he was awarded the title of Okhaemwen and still continues his research on the Iha Ominigbon/Oguega divination system in Edo State. The book talks a lot about Edo spirituality and mentions some of the various non-Yoruba related gods. As well as some folklore related to them. It was an invaluable resource, for someone like me, who's not a Nigerian native.

How ya doing...the best way for me to help you with the pronunciation would have been to send you voice notes, or if you are have an Bini/Esan native that speaks around you there...
I had an uncle from my mom's side who was a famous obo, and we used to go to the village when i was small, some other Obos come around for some festivals and they sing songs and do some displays of power and stuffs like that. i would love to read the book you mentioned....should throw some lights on some things.

Ozichim: You are right and that is what Christ has been seeking from the very first time.

But if Christ is the Son of God then He is God. When you honor Christ you hornor the Father, when you give the glory to Christ you are giving the glory to Christ. But God has made it in a way that every man must come to Him through this name Jesus Christ.
Hence if you honoreth not the Son, then you honoreth not the Father.
So Christ is not above God. It is the same person.

Christ is the son of God does not make him God, it makes him the Son of God. There are other people in the Bible that were also called sons of God...does that also make them God.

The person of God is different from that of Jesus, the scriptures shows this in too many places numerous to recount...even after his resurrection to heaven, the Bible shows them as separate individuals...Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God, Paul said Jesus went to the most holy and presented the value of his sacrifice to God, ;.....the Bible called him the high priest (dont forget a high priest serves a God/gods).....Rev 1:1 says the revelation of Christ which God gave him and which Jesus sent thru his angel to John..

Ozichim: Come out clean. what are you saying?
Christians has a lot to say about peace and Love, If Christians are interested in war and killing there won't have been Islam and Jehovah witness.
Christains are peacefull people and preach peace, infarct Christ is the authur of peace (Christ is the price of peace).
Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

For centuries Churches has allowed politicians to use them to propagate their wars...during the biafran war, 'xtians' in the Nigerian army were killing a predominately 'xtian' biafran army and it has been so in all major wars for the past hundreds of years. The bloody wars of Europe were fought by 'xtian' armies and were heavily supported by the different churches. Christians throwing away the bible and killing each other, Catholics killing catholics and protestants killing protestants because of some political gains.

Early Xtians were never interested in the wars of the Nations until apostasy came into Christianity, and JWs have never been interested in wars nor have they ever supported any war.

Ozichim: The Bible said the name was exalted above every other name. " Any name you can think of is name". including the name Jehova." You cannot ask why.
That is why we must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is the name that when you call upon every knee must bow. This is the highest name for Christians now.

From your comment you are implying that Jesus is now greater than God the father...that is so so so wrong.

9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has [a]freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name,
10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee [b]should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 And every tongue [[c]frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Can you see from the above verses that the exaltation of Jesus to a higher position, the sole purpose and eventual result is to the 'glorification of God the father'. Every action Jesus did was to vindicate and glorify his father and at the end of everything he will subject himself to God.

As shown in the comment above 1 cor 15: 25-28, clearly argued against what you said....Jesus was never exalted to God's position. Nobody has ever and will ever be equal to Almighty God

Lightening: Pls read John 1vs 1. There is no other name given whereby we might be saved (Acts 4v12). At the mention of that name every knee in heaven, on earth and under the earth bows.
Pls check.if they are in your own bible.These are deep.revelations that defies carnal argument.

The knees that would be bent does not include the knees of God Almighty, the father exalting Jesus shows that Jesus was taken from a previous lower position and then exalted to a new level, but the father that exalted him did not now take Jesus to his own position neither did he put Jesus above himself.

Booshman: - Oooooh, I see. His sister was just warning not to lower his guard, simply because he defeated all those humans. And I can just give Joromi's sister an appropriate an Edo name. One that fits her role and personality. Thankfully I have a huge list of Edo names at my disposal.

- The fact that his sword was magical just makes the legend even more impressive. Because Joromi is a normal person, so it's easier for people to put themselves in his shoes. Like a "David and Goliath" type of story. Only African, so it's even more incredible. My only question about the sword is was there any mention of how he came across the it? For example, did he find it in Agbon Elinmi? Or did he carry it with him from home? If it's the 2nd option was it always magical or did it become magical once inside? Or am I totally wrong and he acquired it another way?

- Also, how do you pronounce "Agbon Elinmi"? Is it "Ag-bun El-een-me"? I haven't even tried the Edo dialect yet, because I'm still trying to get the Yoruba dialect and tones down first. Don't want to confuse myself by trying to learn two languages at once.

- Oh! What happened to Joromi's sister? She wasn't left in the Spirit Realm was she? And is her fly transformation one that she can reverse? Because to be quite honest, living as a fly would be horrible!

Sorry for asking a million questions, but I'm VERY detail oriented. I have to be! Because that is what makes for the best stories. Including major details and minor ones.


This is frustrating but also absolutely illuminating, because these are the type of stories should be known the world over! Every African legend that I've heard has been nothing short of "simply fantastic!"

Now your questions are asking for answers legends and myths don't care to answer.... .. we would have to embellish the story and agree on plausibles.... but like i said it is your story...you are kind write it as it fits your purpose...if it was history then we would need to be more careful.

Now to the myriads of questions:

I ma not aware of how he got the sword, but we could say he won it from one of his most difficult opponent on earth or maybe we say the guy bequeath it to him as he was about to die believing he would be the most worthy to wield it.... or we could say one powerful medicine man made it for him....warriors and wrestlers dont go for battles without fortification from medicine-men we call the obo pronounced or-bow.

Agbon Elinmi...this one is tough...it would be A as in Apple, english has no equivalent for GBON... but your suggestion should suffice just make the 'g' very soft and almost silent....

Elinmi...E as in egg then 'lean' and then 'me'

Of course she came back and could transform back.

macof: No! Only religion with lies go around giving u a condition
"believe or rot in hell for eternity"

Islam and christianity claims truth but they are against each other, so who is lying?

Wat if both are lying?

wat if the truth are the ones that don't even claim truth or evangelize atol?

Wat if our ancestors are smart and blessed with knowledge to realize the gods and know their importance in the universe? have u ever thought of this?

Wat if paganism is the truth?

Wat if the gods are not demons as Christians say?

Wat if the real demon is the one casting out demon?

Wat if Jesus never resurrected and the Bible is full of lies and confusion?

Wat if Israel is not the chosen nation? That all nations have been the same in the eyes of God from the beginning

Wat if Israel is worshipping a mountain God?

Wat if Islam is worshipping a moon God?

Wat if Jesus has been edited from the story of Mithra(persian/roman God of Sun, salvation and purity) and Horus(Egyptian God of war, sky and protection)

What if this is not the real world and we are living in the matrix, what if there is a multiverse, alternative world where you are a xtian/muslim.

The eaglets are better than these eagles. How can small boys control and handlee ball better than these men.

The Sister was not telling him not to tell the new demons about his exploits. The Sister was just acknowledging his prowess in the song but then warning him that these are not like his human opponents but this is the spirit world and that he cant hope to succeed like he did on earth. But of course you can embellish the story to suit your purpose, its a legend and am sure it has been re-told in a number of ways to kids.

Joromi's sisters name is lost to antiquity

He uses a Sword, but of course the sword is magical to achieve all it did. then Joromi himself would have been 'cooked'.

The name of the spirit world is 'Agbon Elinmi'. Agbon is world, while Elinmi is spirit. so that makes it spirit world. My dad use to scold my sister when we were little calling her Ekhun Agbon Ekhun Elinmi... Which means the laziest of the world and the laziest of the spirits. We laugh over it now a lot.

macof:
Messing while praying could be disastrous

Alfa Seltzer: Satan forbid that I become a head knocker with gay tendencies. Imagine showing my ass to fellow men pretending I was praying!

Like i said you guys are comedians, laughter is good for your health.

A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones......Prov 17:22

macof: African juju is not spirits working. Even pagans who deal with this things know it's just normal forces of nature bending to suit u. It's more science than u can imagine.

It's lack of knowledge that causes all these atheist here to say thrash

What is now working, is it the leaf they put in their mouth or the 'gbere' abi it is the 'bante' they tie on the waist. When someone uses a broom to touch a goat and the goat died instantly, what kind of science is that.

Even if they are bending the forces of nature, the point is what are they using to bend it, who is helping them to bend it.

ghostofsparta: After you post your update, would reply you.

Interesting Thread.

While i would not believe most of the superstitious stuff going round, but the sheer number of people who claim to have witnessed things that are totally unexplainable, the amount of money people have spent to purchase charms to effect some result and the fear people have had for centuries about these powers can not just be dismissed.

I will mention just a few example: A long time ago my uncle lived in a house with a very troublesome landlord, there was a day the man quarrelled with one of the tenant, he told the tenant if he dare come out of his room he is going to die, the tenant said he was just making noise, so the man sprinkled some stuff in the passage/corridor and dared the tenant to come out. The tenant came out and immediately he stepped into the passage the man fell down and die. That was the day my uncle left the house and a number of other tenants also left.

A cargo truck had an accident along the express and some boys accompanying the truck were injured, but nobody could find the driver, while they were looking for him, one of the boys sighted him coming from the opposite direction totally unharmed, when the driver was accosted he denied being in the truck, but people said he should be searched and they found under his clothing charms and amulets, then the guy now owned up. This was witnessed by a friend.

There are other eye-witness accounts of different kinds i have been told, now why would these people just start lying their heads off to me if they did not actually see it happen.
There are too many instances of similar things happening for it just to be coincidence.

Alfa Seltzer: Wow! The full chapter is even worse. See jesus telling his soldiers to run away. No wonder!

Then from verse 32, the powerful creator is pledging revenge against his creatures . "If you do me, I go do you", like an illiterate vagabond. So pitiful and pathetic.

You are just a jester and are for a certainty not a muslim, no muslim derides Jesus or any of the prophets on whom salawat is said. Many of the 'atrocities' you are citing were 'committed' by people that were honoured in the quran and as many of you say were muslims.

I wonder how they are going to enforce this. I know many of those drivers already run shifts on their own because its quite strenuous to drive for 12 hrs continuously on Lagos roads. Even the bus conductors dont work everyday they also rest on some days.

But it is the Agbero law they should enforce, these people are in everybodys face and they are terrorising the poor drivers and commuters everyday.