₦airaland Forum

Excellent write up bro. Even the joys of Heaven is not such that will naturally be appreciated by the senses except as the Spirit reveals Him to you and gives a foretaste of glory.

Jozzy4:
Imagine ! After you quote psalm 139 to prove that possess can mean FORMED (amplified) , anything formed is created .

I quoted Psalm 139 to establish the fact that 'possess' is used in inseparable connection with being 'brought forth'.

My conclusion doesnt contradict , God give birth to the earth means God form/create it (psalm 90:2) the same hebrew word is used

NO WAY! A different word is used! Do your research properly.

A right thinking person know God is not a woman that he should give birth , that expression refer to creation ! that means the septuagint LXX rendering @ prov 8:22 is correct

A right thinking person also realises that God is not man and is not bound by the copulation-to-conception ordinance! Again reading our meaning to vs 22 while ignoring the context, vs 24 and other parallel passages is wrong.

Man beget through se.xual intercourse leading to birth , tell me how he was begotten ?

I can only go as far as the Scriptures. Attempting to mentally fill in the gaps and condemn or accept is the recipe for erroneous teachings.

Jozzy4:
Appreciating possess in the light of proverb 8:24 , been GIVEN BIRTH to simply means Jesus is created . Do you agree ?

Your conclusion contradicts other portion of Scripture that call Him the Only Begotten.

NO TRUTH IN SCRIPTURE CAN BE ESTABLISHED INDEPENDENT OF OTHER PORTIONS AND ANY BELIEF THAT CONTRADICTS OTHER PORTIONS IN THEIR CONTEXT AND INTENT, IS ERRONEOUS

Besides, Proverbs 8:24 says:

In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy with waters,
Youngs' Literal Translation.

It seems the highlighted is a conclusion you strongly (and wrongly) want to achieve and its apparent that you are determined to rewrite that Proverbs 8:24

Consider this:

mā·yim.
מָֽיִם׃
with water


niḵ·bad·dê-
נִכְבַּדֵּי־
abounding

ma‘·yā·nō·wṯ,
מַ֝עְיָנ֗וֹת
[there were] fountains

bə·’ên
בְּאֵ֥ין
when no

ḥō·w·lā·lə·tî;
חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי
I was brought forth

tə·hō·mō·wṯ
תְּהֹמ֥וֹת
[there were] depths

bə·’ên- 24
בְּאֵין־ 24
When no

biblehub.com

It will be wrong and misleading to separate 'possess' from the 'bringing forth' process!

Besides I find the contradiction in your post quite indicative of bias:

"Appreciating possess in the light of proverb 8:24 , been GIVEN BIRTH to simply means Jesus is created"
If you agree that 8:24 means giving birth, how come your conclusion contradicts your premise?

Jesus was, is and will ever be the Only Begotten of the Father, according to the scriptures!!!

Jozzy4:
Whats your point ? Because possessing my intestines simply means God Create them . Are you now saying wisdom was possessed means wisdom is created ?

My point is that we read the passage in its context, appreciate the usage of the word 'possess' with respect to the process of 'bringing forth', vis a vis the usage of that word with reference to the same process in a similar passage, in order to be objective and fair in our analysis.
Holding to 'possess' while ignoring the others that set things in the right perspective is to distort the thought given by both passages.

Jesus said," I AM THE WAY...NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME"

We can only come to God by Him bro.

There is no religion that saves. Salvation is in Jesus Christ!

Jozzy4:
Thanks for this analysis .

From the above , God possessed my reins means God formed my intestines , right ?

Then that means wisdom been possessed in Proverb 8:22 means it was FORMED .

Notice that Psalm 139 describes the art of possessing as part of the process of being brought forth; it will then be wrong to single out that word and ignore the context or the part played by that verse in what is being described therein.
Both the OT and the NT agree to the fact that He is the Only Begotten!

Jozzy4:
Proverb 8:22 said wisdom ( Jesus) was created , the LXX agrees with that rendering . So when we read at proverb 8:24 that wisdom is been given birth to , thats very easy to understand and perfectly agrees with proverb 8:22

THE CONTRADICTION :

Most modern translation disagree with the LXX septuagint " created " because it contradict their theology , so They Render Proverb 8:22 as
" wisdom was possessed " .. This raise the QUESTION : How can wisdom be GIVEN BIRTH TO if its already possessed ?

Proverb 8:22 " wisdom is possessed"

Proverb 8:24 NO , " wisdom is given birth to"

Can someone explain this contradiction ?

The word 'possess' is also used in relation to being brought forth in Psalm 139:13
For thou hast possessed my reins:
thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. AKJV

Consider this passage in Amplified

13 For You did form my inward parts; You did knit me together in my mother’s womb.

Meaning the hebrew word there used still talks of the process of being brought forth as Psalm 139 shows.

Jozzy4:
So Rev 20:13,14 mention hell - gehenna shey ? Get your facts right , the verse mention HADE'S not gehenna .

If you read the place in Revelation 20, it says the DEAD small and great...meaning those
like the rich man etc that went there will ,by the second resurrection, be brought out.

Isaiah 66: 22-24 is talking about dead Bodies Okay .

Again Revelation 20,''I saw the DEAD small and great STAND before God...'' If you consider the context in Isaiah quoted as a time when death will be no more after the second resurrection , how would you differentiate the dead in Isaiah from those in Revelation.

Jozzy4:
@ Mizjanet ; Thanks for those deep thought questions that force my friend to do neccesary research.

well....

@ underlined , show me where the bible said hell - gehenna will be cast into the lake offire ?

see Revelations 20:13,14

, its DEAD BODY bro ' check the underlined.

it is not possible that they will be resurrected and killed again! Being cast into the lake of fire is described as the second death.

McSterling:
It beats me how an "all wise God" , an "heavenly" father", one who's supposed to be the quintessence of benevolence, a just judge, the mind that made this magnificent universe that we haven't even learnt a quintillionth about even with everything we now know, would deem it reasonable to create a grim, sick and morbid situation where his creatures who are incomparable to him in every respect would be punished infinitely in a fire for the choices they made in a very finite life (less than 100 for most).

Once again,"Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. And , according to Justice, any one who chooses to follow the devil will not be denied his destination!"

And this is supposed to be justice? And not to forget, he is omniscient and could have prevented or obviated the need for such a situation but didn't.

In a responsibility-shifting attempt man wishes God take the blame for his wrongs while man takes credit for his successes! Why? What else was not done that should not have been done? The final choice rests with the man! Now somebody on another thread craves hell; what then? from the quotes she(he?) knows of such a place, what choices lead there etc and in a daring attempt to assassinate his(her?) conscience in order to freely indulge her perversions or his lusts decides for hell...what then?

It makes one marvel at how such a being could have made the universe. Seriously, he doesn't seem smart enough to have made this universe. He could never understand quantum mechanics or special relativity even if Einstein explained it to him. He's way too petty, petulant, impulsive and simple to be such an intelligent mind. He pays too much attention to trifles and quibbles. Even I, a young homo sapien below thirty, do not pay such attention to quibbling matters let alone the creator of the universe. That's why guys like Thomas Payne and David Hume couldn't accept Yahweh as the creator even though they believed in a creator. Let's call a spade a spade. Yahweh is dumb! Very dumb!

No He isnt. If you will bring God into the picture (though you deny He exists) then bring satan and all his cohorts along after all hell (LAke of fire) was made for them and they will enter first before man! If you in trying to be humanistic, blaspheme God because of hell then remember that justice for satan and his cohorts has its time and place and while that time approaches, all men (like Adam) have their free moral agency and choose who they'll follow.

MizJanet:

Answer me :

Since the hell in Mark 9:43 -45 is literal , why are peoples feet and hand not going into it today ? Where do the feet and hand of a dead man go to ? Hell or grave .

Waiting ...

Of course when a person dies, he is buried in the ground.

A careful consideration of scripture shows that the final judgement in the lake of fire is interchangeably called hell, everlasting punishment, everlasting destruction etc
The reference to physical body parts by Jesus therefore points to the final Great White Throne Judgment in Revelations 20:12-15 this will take place after the second resurrection John 5:29. Revelations 20 establishes the fact that the torments of hell-gehenna is a temporary one as hell-gehenna will be disposed off in the lake of fire meaning the reference to everlasting fire points not to hell- gehenna but to the lake of fire.

Now Jesus spoke about fire that will never be quenched a fact that actually points to the final judgement as shown in:

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth which I make shall remain before Me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.

24 And they shall go forth and gaze upon the dead bodies of the [rebellious] men who have stepped over against Me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.
Isaiah 66:22-24

Dead bodies after the tenor of Genesis 2:17- separation/cut-off from God.

Meaning after the Great judgement, the location of the lake of fire will be visible.

MizJanet:

Oh ! No wonder frosbel said those who are deluded are those proclaiming this myth .

everything in that verse is symbolic except hell . Delusio.n indeed

Since the hell is literal , answer joz4 question : churchman where will ya feet and hands go to? Hell or grave

I want you to further expose your delusion

Answer .. Am waiting

Read the response to his question.

frosbel2:
wrong.

It is a mighty myth believed only by the deluded or deceived.

Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. And , according to Justice, any one who chooses to follow the devil will not be denied his destination!

MizJanet:

Silly post .. Cutting off limb is symbolic but hell in that same verse is literal ? Uh

YES!!! HELL IS LITERAL! How do I know this? Just the same way I know the other was symbolic: Comparing scripture with scripture!

Jozzy4:
Zero scholar , now you run to another verse . Shame !

Rev 20:12 picture the resurection and final judgement which hasnt occur yet .

I know! Did you read this:
Besides, the imagery used here was symbolic and the audience then (though primitive) understood hence you dont find any of the Apostles or Jesus Himself cutting off anyone's limbs!

frosbel2:
What sort of being will send a creature he loves to a place of never ending torment ?? You may be talking about Satan.

It is a matter of choice and consequence. And the consequence of alternatives being communicated clearly ahead of time!

The topic of this thread, "Why would a Loving GOD send me to hell" shows that human nature remains the same:

When a student passes an exam he says," I got an A in biology"

When he fails he says," The teacher gave me a D in biology"

We hate to take the blame and be responsible for our mistakes and their consequences!

Edidiong21:
YOUNG LADY, MAY GOD BLESS YOU IN JESUS NAME, AMEN.
PLEASE, ALL YOUR BIBLE VERSES ARE ALL IN OLD TESTAMENTS WHEN THEIR WAS NO GRACE.
JESUS HAS COME AND DIE FOR OUR SINS IN NEW TESTAMENT, THEREBY TAKING AWAY THE ANGER OF GOD OVER SIN.
PLEASE, DON'T QUESTION GOD SO THAT HE WILL NOT BRING HIS ROT ON ONLY YOU. HE IS ALMIGHTY, THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, HE HAS RIGHT TO DO ALL THINGS.

This is a digression!
Can you establish the highlighted from the Scriptures?

What was the purpose of the solemn warnings and exhortations to holiness of life we find all over the NT?

Do you realise that the sermon on the mount is what Grace enables us to do besides forgiveness; and not just forgiveness of sins and a privilege to," go and continue sinning just remember to ask for forgiveness"(Heresy)?!Titus 2:11-13

Besides, do you also realise that the New Testament as prophesied and fulfilled did not purport to change God's nature but man's nature?

The reason why this issue should not be considered is because the parchment was from animal skin meaning the carbon dating read the age of the animal whose skin was used for the parchment. If the scrolls of other writings of that era are similarly tested, the same results might be found!

Jozzy4:
The underlined require you to use ur thinkin fa.culty, your hands and Feets are buried in the grave not an imaginary hell .

With what will these STAND?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, [size=13pt]stand[/size] before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
Revelations 20:12a.

Before you 'think' things away, help yourself by embarking on an exhaustive study.

Besides, the imagery used here was symbolic and the audience then (though primitive) understood hence you dont find any of the Apostles or Jesus Himself cutting off anyone's limbs!

Because the Loving God gave us a right of choice and being a God of Justice will not deny us our choice and its consequence! Is that against love? Not when that love has done all things possible to warn us.(and as a principle, He forces none thus each is responsible for his choices and we cannot change that)

As for hell,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-47

Now this is an example of someone saying he PREFERS hell (of course ignorantly). Ultimately, the choice of our eternal destiny is ours not God's! Hence it will be wrong to say God sent him to hell, rather he chose to go there!

menesheh:
Dear Christians,

I hate to break this to you but the Old Testament doesn't give a fvck about you. It's not yours & it doesn't address you.

Ouch!
Isaiah 56:3-6
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, The Lord will surely separate me from His people. And let not the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4[b] For thus says the Lord[/b]: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths and choose the things which please Me and hold firmly My covenant—
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial and a name better [and more enduring] than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.
6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord to minister to Him and to love the name of the Lord and to be His servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it and who holds fast My covenant [by conscientious obedience]—

starlingslimnet:
My brother,if I may interfere, the main reason the Jew reject Jesus as the Son of God his first,because he is in our form; the Jews cannot comprehend their God YAHWEH becoming a man. Second is, every Jew knows the Son of God is a God and that's why when Jesus said He is the Son of God they sees it as blasphemy. If Christ is not equal to God the Jews will have no problem believing on him; but saying He is the Son of God he is telling them he is God.

The point of what we are trying to say is "Christ is God in flesh"

Yes but He is distinct from the Father yet One with the Father!

bingbagbo:
A comparison of the Old and New Testaments provides powerful testimony to Jesus’s identity as God. For example, a study of the Old Testament indicates that it is only God who saves. In Isaiah 43:11, God asserts: “I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.” This verse indicates that (1) a claim to be Savior is, in itself, a claim to deity; and (2) there is only one Savior—the Lord God. It is thus highly revealing of Christ’s divine nature that the New Testament refers to Jesus as “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13).

Likewise, God asserted in Isaiah 44:24: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself” (emphasis added). The fact that God alone “makes all things” (Isaiah 44:24)—and the accompanying fact that Christ is claimed to be the Creator of “all things” (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2)—proves that Christ is truly God.

What about explanation for the quotes I posted?

How would you explain this:

13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, on the clouds of the heavens came One like a Son of man, and He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.
14 And there was given[b] Him (the Messiah)[/b] dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom is one which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:13,14

bingbagbo:
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD ALMIGHTY GOD

2 Peter 1:1

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Shed more light on:
2 May grace (God’s favor) and peace (which is [a]perfect well-being, all necessary good, all spiritual prosperity, and freedom from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts) be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, [c]precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

16 For we were not following cleverly devised stories when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah), but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty (grandeur, authority of sovereign power).
17 For when He was invested with honor and glory from God the Father and a voice was borne to Him by the [splendid] Majestic Glory [in the bright cloud that overshadowed Him, saying], This is My beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased and delight,
2 Peter 1:2,16,17

And
And [now] I am no more in the world, but these are [still] in the world, and[b] I am coming to You. Holy Father,[/b] keep in Your Name [[a]in the knowledge of Yourself] those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We [are one].
John 17:11

Not forgetting:
[Rather, I will say,] Father, glorify (honor and extol) Your [own] name! Then there came a voice out of heaven saying, I have already glorified it, and I will glorify it again.
29 The crowd of bystanders heard the sound and said that it had thundered; others said, An angel has spoken to Him!
30 Jesus answered, This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sake.
John 12:28-30

lexiconkabir:
isnt it funny how flexible the bible is? you can twist it as you like! if you want to prove that jesus is God, jesus is not God, there is one God, there are three gods, you shouldnt judge, you could judge, you can lie, you cannot lie and so on, by God's grace you can prove all that with the bible successfully. why is this so? because different men wrote it with different ideologies claiming to be "inspired by God" viz "holy spirit" the bible says you shouldnt judge in mattew7:1 and yet again you successfully proved that you can judge by giving 1corithians2:15 isnt this a contradiction? funny religion that likes codemning others whereas all they follow is CONJECTURE as the quran described it!

The place quoted (or should i say misquoted) by the op talks of judging in the sense of discerning something, it infact states, ," he that is spiritual judges all THINGS" not all MEN!. As regards the op, even Jesus denounced the hypocrisy of the pharisees!

Matthew 7:1 does not forbid this as written in the OT:
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Leviticus 19:17

Rather, Matthew 7:1 is clearly explained in James 4:11
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Therefore Matthew 7:1 refers to speaking evil of a person as though you knew their thoughts and intentions (quite different from slander of backbiting); uncharitable criticisms etc

Viktor1983:
Both parchment and the writings are considered in carbon dating.

Carbon dating is not always accurate a small error can take u ±50000 years.

Still reading the article to find out who conducted the datings.

Thanks

lexiconkabir:
(1) the test was done on the parchments only...........(2) the test is of 95.4% confidence interval, maybe you should click here to see more from wikipedia.

Alright thanks.

frosbel2:
many of these verses have been either translated with ulterior purpose or interpolated into scripture.

So what exactly was written originally?

I will take Jesus words more seriously than the words of any other man.

But they were Inspired according to 2 Peter 1:21. Ephesians 2:20, Ephesians 3:5 and John 15:27 also shows that they spoke and/or wrote as ones appointed by the Lord

Jesus said there is only 1 master.

Being Him but He gave some Apostles Luke 6:13, prophets,evangelists, pastors and teachers! Besides the Holy Ghost set some as Overseers over the Church!(Acts 20:28)

This of course does not mean we should not have leaders aka elders and pastors but they must and should operate in the context of servitude and humility, never lording it over the church.

Just as Peter (also a man) wrote through inspiration in addressing his fellow elders 1Peter 5:1-5

Pls let she/he who knows answer:
1. Does carbon dating 'test' the parchment or the writings thereon?
2. Is the procedure accurate ?
3. What control is used to establish the results obtained?

You just did! And so it is!