₦airaland Forum

freelance:
It's very important you pay your tithe.

And if I dont??

newdeal:
My take on this?
Its scriptural [Exodus 23:19, Proverbs 3:9, Leviticus 2:14, etc][/b]But there is a caveat here:

[b]If you believe in it, go ahead and give, it will produce good result for you. If you do not believe it, please dont give,
whatever you do for God or even for man that is not borne out of inner conviction is a wasteful exercise.

I'm not sure you've studied the scripture passages you highlighted; if you have, you'd clearly see that you have no business giving firstfruits

fyneguy:
JJY

If you know CE and Pastor Chris very well, you would be laughing at Sir John and his cohorts.

These guys have no idea how far the ministry has gone such that their (Sir John's and his co-travellers') conspiracy is of no effect.

FYI fyeguy, I know Christian Oyakhilome very well, maybe even better than you know him. well, I know he is rich and spreads his money around to cover himself up just like he tried in SA with his elder brother Ken. They tried to offer bribe to extend TV airtime in SA, they got unlucky and it landed Ken in court. finally, he absconds from SA and his wife Ose had to replace him. These guys are running a cartel just like Benny Hinn

debosky:
I will give my [i]personal [/i]opinion on the matter.

First of all, there is nothing that you can do to eliminate all forms of afflictions and troubles - all men will pass through this at one point or another. What we are assured of, is that none of these things can separate us from the love of Christ.

I wouldn't call myself an 'advocate' of tithing, I simply reject the notion that by a personal and willing decision to give 10% of my income on a regular basis as I have decided in my heart is being condemned by some.

Let there be no doubt - even in the new testament, he who sows bountifully will reap bountifully and he who sows sparingly will reap sparingly.

'Tithing' or giving 10% (or any other amount for that matter) is simply a pathway, a tool to be used to achieve God's admonition that we should be givers. Please read the following article by John Piper. It explains my views in principle.

That said, let me now go to your 'questions'.

Giving is not the only requirement of an 'open heaven', nor is it the prime determinant. Most of the blessings from God are showers of grace, not by achievement.
The above applies as well - Tithing is not the central principle of Christian living. Tithing but being lazy and slothful will not bring good living. A wholesome Christian life will enable you to live well in most cases, but even that doesn't always work!
I don't know what 'pastors' you refer to, but I have not been privy nor do I believe any such doctrine. Time and chance happens to all men, and all will pass through some form of difficulty.

I do not know of any 'exclusive' blessings. What I do know is, what you sow is what you will reap. As mentioned above, this plays a small part in the overall basket of gracious love showered unto us by the Father.

If I understand your opinion correctly, the 'open heaven' of Malachi 3 does not apply only to faithful tithers nor does the 'devourer' apply[b] only[/b] to non-faithful tithers.  We get rewarded for hard work, faithfulness and diligence and God in his mercies and sovereign will blesses us accordinly; am I correct?

KunleOshob:
Abi oh, they now came up with this unbiblical concept of "faithful" tithing. there excuse for people who tithe that were not being blessed was that they were not tithing faithfully enough. and faithfull tithing was defined to mean tithing from every income you receive and even gifts that you are given. These crooks teach that you should findout the monetary value of gifts you received and pay a tithe of the value to them. Can you imagine how evil and wicked that is? to be telling someone that is lacking to be giving more to your own purse. It was the early christian leaders that took care of those who lacked financially amongst them. Acts 4 : 32-3

Its so sad  when I remember that I once taught and practiced this lie, I so wish I can unteach some of this folks

Hey guys, I think enough threads on this forum have done justice to wether or not we should tithe today. I really dont think we should go over that again, abi Bro Kunle you never try reach?
I know why I asked the question on this thread; I really dont expect any answer far from what pinky lady has given, but for the benefit of doubt, I'll still wait to see.

As far as these pastors are concerned, theres always something you're not doing right; if its not that you didn't give full 10%, then it will be that you dont have enough faith. Its a 'gospel of blame' that almost always shifts the blame on its adherents.

I await more answers!!

pinky lady:
@poster

there is no point arguing with you guys, all i know is that God
through the Bible commanded that tithes should be paid,
correctly and with a joyfull heart, i wonder what your problem
is concerning the payment of tithes, if don't believe don't,
cos i don't see any reason why you should discourage people
from doing what they believe in. but as christains our main
priority is to walk according to the commandment of God.

all peace.

One down, next please

fyneguy:
JJYOU,

It's actually wrong for the guy to be so treated (if he was so treated, as we never read the other side of the story). The security guys should have sent him away if necessary.

However, bad belle people are taking it too far by making it ''oh yes that's the way the church is'''blablabla

especially, when supposed christians are involved in this.  People should learn to correct in love.

Why would'nt it be taken too far; compare your last post with the one that attracted so much attention, theres a lot of difference man:

fyneguy:
lol

Funny people

and you really think this has brought Pastor Chris down? 

It's obvious you guys know little or nothing about this man's ministry.

Well, the man's ministry is bigger than what your little minds can bring down. It's too late.

You must be thinking that Christ Embassy is just one of those roadside struggling churches which can fall like a pack of cards with the blow of the mouth.

You know what? - Keep wishing Christ Embassy speedy downfall while God continues to increase it in grace and growth.

pinky lady:
1. there is no how somebody would pay his tithe with a joyful heart without having an open heaven

So whats your definition of an 'open heaven'; Good health, peace of mind, promotion, breakthrough, prosperity?

pinky lady:
2. the possible explanation for poor tithe payers struggling to make a living might be either there are not paying up to the reqiured amount which is
one-tenth. and may i remind you that a tithe that is not up to one-tenth can not be called a tithe so its as good as saying that such a person has not paid his tithe

Listen to yourself!! thats about the dumbest thing I ever heard. So are you saying categorically that poor tithers dont get open heaven
because they're not paying the full 10%?
I think I recomend hard work and diligence for them!!

pinky lady:
3. in answer to your no. 3 question, its true, God through his word which is the Bible clearly states that devourers will not attack those who pay their tithe faithfully

So if a brother tells me he was robbed or that he lost some amount of money or that a business deal went bad, I can conclude from that that he must not have been paying his tithe faithfully right?

pinky lady:
4. only God knows how to deal with the non tithe payers

I thought the devourer was supposed to eat up their finances and health

simmy:
I'm overawed by some of the responses form the post. None of the supporters of Chris Oyhakhilome faulted the veracity of the story. Instead they kept saying stuff like"you cant bring him down". Believe it or not, i think your responses have done more damage to the church than the original post itself

You should know thats very typical of CE members

Where are all the tithe advocates? I need your answers on this one

fyneguy:
@Sir John

You should know by now you are the last person I will join issues with. You and I know you have been commissioned by some church competitors to bring down Pastor Chris and CE, as your sponsors see him as a threat to their survival.

I often chuckle at your desperation at this ignoble mission. I wonder how much time you have left for you to achieve the goals.

I dont have any business with Mr Chris and his money spinning empire or his business competitors as you rightly called them. I'm happy with my life; at least I dont have to give out my hard earned money for expensive suits, shoes, bleaching cream, relaxer and gel.

fyneguy:
where does the bible say Pastors must not buy Hummer and Navigator?

What you guys dont know is that the cars may even be gifts.

Did the members of their churches complain to you guys they were suffering?
Abeg if una no know wetin to talk, make una shut am.

How are they supposed to complain when they've been hypnotized and brainwashed huh!!

Malachi 3:10-12 probably is one of the most popular bible passages today. This is no surprise at all as it is constantly brandished by pastors and several other church leaders for whatever purpose they hope to achieve.
I do not intend to start another endless debate on whether or not tithing is for the new testament Christian; I just have few questions for the proponents of tithing:

Malachi 3:10-12
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

If this passage plus the claims of some clergymen are anything to go by, there should hardly be any hungry tither in the world; so here are my questions:

1. Can you say that true tithe payers always have this ‘open heaven’ experience?
2. What can possibly be the explanation for poor tithe payers struggling to make a living?
3. ‘And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes’ pastors have used this passage to mean that true tithe payers are always
     exempted from seasons of lack, misfortune and unwanted loss, is this true?
4. What blessing is exclusive for the tithe payer which non-tithe payers like me and kunleOshob cannot enjoy?

fyneguy:
lol

Funny people

and you really think this has brought Pastor Chris down?

It's obvious you guys know little or nothing about this man's ministry.

Well, the man's ministry is bigger than what your little minds can bring down. It's too late.

You must be thinking that Christ Embassy is just one of those roadside struggling churches which can fall like a pack of cards with the blow of the mouth.

You know what? - Keep wishing Christ Embassy speedy downfall while God continues to increase it in grace and growth.

You mean you can write such junk after reading that story? what a shame

Image123:
@SirJohn
Are you mocking the Spirit,please don't.

off course not, those were just bunch of words or do they sound familiar to you?

Libraktondalabaya bashakatelebo aktro-zebrakonshna baklevontroskibra. Liba pakato deiza shaktalebronto kelebayaha brandave?

yeah Image123, you can say that again

Image123:
could know all the right things about it,but its never the same with the experience.If you had the experience,you will know.

@papa,
I thought as much; you know it wasn't hard for me to figure it out.

Papa:
While you and many other nairalanders can experience such a thing when it wants or needs to happen, some of us make it happen when we want or need!

You see young man, some of us have practiced this part of God's word enough to make it happen when we want or need! And it's not only in the area of money! Even favor!

_{what on earth makes this one think he has experienced anything more than anyone here? what a pity!!}

@papa,
One of the things about living in a world of delusion and fantasy is that most of the time you feel you are way up there and every other person is way down there. I've been right where you are and even more but was bold enough to walk away when I realized it was all delusion.
Enjoy it while it lasts bro!!

away4real:
To him that chooses not to pay his Tithe in faith God bless you, to him that chooses by faith to pay his Tithe and give a First fruit offetory God bless you also. As long as it is done in Faith. I only wonder the faith needed not to pay thithe, hmm, thats a new one Faith not to pay thithe.

You don't need to wonder; some of us have been walking in that 'faith' for some time now and its as glorious as you can imagine

Chris Oyakhilome once told his flock that he usually gets unusual deposits in his bank account; he found out later that it was angels depositing the money in the said account. Not long after his tale, his members and pastors started claiming to experience the same thing. He even went further to tell them that money is a spirit, infact an ÁNGEL and that when you speak in tongues, you are sending the angel called money on an assignment

Classical brainwashing if you ask me

Papa:
This couple had to preach in a Nigerian village where few if not no one, understood english - which happened to be the only other language they could speak. The wife got up and started preaching in english; it was evident the people couldn't understand. The husband was really not feeling it - so he decided to boldly go up and speak in tongues as though he was interpreting his wife in tongues. He just trusted that the Holy Spirit would if not through words, then through expressions, explain to the people. They had no idea what they were doing, but little did this couple know that the man had been speaking the native language fluently. People got saved at that meeting!

Not that I doubt the move of the Spirit okay, but can you please tell us exactly where in Nigeria this happened and probably the name of the ministers

Papa:
MY FIRST EXPERIENCE:
I was at a church when the pastor gave a word of prophecy that angels (especially in the form of people we don't know) will come to us and offer to give us money for absolutely nothing. Not long after, his wife explained in another teaching that we can instruct the angels in tongues to speed up the occurence - THE TRUTH IS: You may not even know if or when you've given the instruction or not - but the Holy Spirit who loves you more than you can ever love yourself will put the accurate [i]mongolian [/i]words that mean exactly that - AT THE RIGHT TIME - in your mouth.

And this is why we are encouraged with every opportunity we have, to speak in tongues,  you never know when the words buried in your spirit - at a particular moment - are for you!

Anyway, I did speak in tongues as much as possible that week - THE VERY NEXT SUNDAY - I was at a completely different church where people are against what the previous church believe - after church, some brother shows up (he's a deacon I learnt), and till today can't explain it. He walks up to me and put the equivalent of 5,250 naira in foreign currency in my hands and says ", 'THEY' said I should give you!" He still doesn't know who "they" are? I don't know who "they" are and no one can still explain otherwise who "they" are. 5250 naira in 2005!

This SAME - EXACT - incident took place MORE THAN ONCE!

THIS IS ONLY ONE! OUT OF MANY MANY MANY LIVE EXPERIENCES OF MINE!

See, God wants us to experience EVERY good thing His word has for us and more! I just believe what I find it in the word - because, it's not common that you receive what you don't believe - so I simply believe God and it works for me - you should try it sometime; I'd love to hear of how it works for you too!

Keep well my friend!

This is your EXPERIENCE like you rightly termed it; and I hope you know that no ones experience no matter how extraordinary can validate or invalidate Gods word. I have had similar experience and even more extraordinary ones but I didn't have to speak in tongues in any case. I'm sure there are nairalalnders too with the same story so my dear leave that matter.

these pastors will not cease to amaze me; why does it always have to be money all the time. I've heard pastors say stuffs like this on several occasions.
Your story sounds like what you'd hear in a christ embassy church 

@ttalks
good one, especially on the 'tongues of angels' coz this is where charismatics miss the whole stuff.

@Image123
ttalks has replied you on my behalf; I hope it is well understood?

father ab:
My dear poster,
From your inputs on this thread, i realized you are very sincere.
My advice for you is not to mind all those who have no important thing to say to you but just want to excercise their freedom of speech rights.

Now to begin with, Firstfruits has so many scriptural backings. One straight-foward verse is  Ezekiel 44:30 ''And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house''.
Now the issue is firstfruit is a covenant practice. Being purely a covenant affair makes it an individual decision. It is a practice of those who wish to tread great waters in all aspect of life.

My first job was a N40k monthly stuff. I gave the firstfruit (everything) but i spread it over some months. Do you know that the time i paid the last coin, I got a N120k job in the same Lagos. That is how i have been moving upward at an unusual speed since then. Gen 50:5 ''Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.''

Besides all these, there is an inner fulfilment when men of God who are making great impact enjoy your money, when they eat of your sweat. Especially those of them who have little or no supports. The same quality and quantity of reward a person gets for doing God's work is the same you will get in making it possible for him to do that work.

Ignorant gullible sheeple

Image123:
@SirJohn
tongues of men is the speaking in tongues in languages that other people can understand.You may not necessarily know what you're saying and it may be a one off thing.
tongues of angels is speaking in language that communicate direct with heaven.Its usually edifying the speaker and glorifying Christ.TThe people around do not understand it.
Groaning in Spirit is what it is basically.Groaning.Its usually an intercessory form of prayer i.e on behalf of others known/unknown.Its quite serious as it involves saving life/lives
gift of tongues is what it is.Gift.Its different from the initial experience of speaking in tongues after the baptism of the Spirit.It is more frequent

I hope this could help you a little.Please,as I said they are all manifestations of the Spirit,not some man made act.Some people over time see others manifest this gifts and end up copying them until they could actually be deludthinking they possess the manifestations.The best thing is to live a life that pleases God and to be surrendered to God the Spirit to use you to manifest the gifts,not the vice versa

I'm sure apostle Paul will have a good laugh if he was alive to see what you wrote here . I advice you study the subject without bias; its obvious you just spewed out what you have heard off several pulpits and publications.
I'm very much interested in the 'tongues of men'; how come we don't see it in operation anywhere among the charismatics? its always the same gibberish you hear everywhere. I'm sure its the same thing you speak Image123:
"raba shakatalahaya, mando groshe, balaronsky latarabadoshka, eidosonshka laribonda lahate"
what other manifestation of tongues have you seen apart from this gibberish??

coolruler:
If this topic has been treated before, pls send the link. I would love to read it up.

Heard in Church last Sunday that as a true Christian, it is mandatory I fork over my WHOLE salary for this month(I just got a new job), to God. Pastor says its the Law of the Firstfruits.
Is this true? is that the way the Bible really laid it out? How then do I survive and meet all my obligations?
Your thoughts on this please.

Firstfruits ko, second food ni

Image123:
@Infomizer
[b]Actually in the scriptures,there's what is called tongues of men,then there's what is called tongues of angels.There's also what is called groaning in Spirit and there's what is called the gift of tongues.[/b]They are all of the same Spirit though varying manifestations.Of coursse,we are all aware that there are fakes and devil's remixes of ALL the gifts,that's why we should test every spirit and the usefulness of the display.Is it for edification and is it from God.Don't get carried away with gifts.Strive for purity.The devil can live with gifts and con people with gifts,but he go try with purity

@Image123
Kindly explain how these gifts you mentioned differ

Mimiiiis:
What's wrong with a little hope?

Nothing wrong with it, if its not shrouded in deceit

@Davidylan
You can say that again

donipal:
though i was in attendant on few occassion but it all depend on your faith to receive healing.
unfortunately, i couldnt attend last sunday's seminar.
note that am not a member of christ embassy, wz invited by a friend

Yeah donipal, that's always how it appears when you observe from a distance; what you'd observe by participating closely will most definitely be different.

Again donipal, don't let anyone fool you with 'faith talk', its usually the recourse for faith healers whenever they do not achieve the results they brag about. Its always easy for them to throw the blame on the miracle seeker, after all, there is no meter to measure faith.

From the scriptures, we have been able to establish both on this thread and several others that faith is not 'always' required for healing or miracles to take place; even if it was, must it always be the seeker who does not have faith? what about the minister? Remember the case in the Bible where the disciples of Jesus could not cast a demon out of a young man, did Jesus blame it on the young man who was possessed? No, instead he blamed it on lack of faith on the part of the disciples. Matt 17:14-20

This reminds me of a particular woman in one of the Healing School services I attended in May 2008, she came all the way from Germany to the healing in Lagos to be healed. She said she was possessed with thirteen evil spirits that keep tormenting her; according to her, she hears their voices and they always threaten to kill her.

Pst Chris ministered to her, but a very funny drama took place afterwards; I noticed that the lady, after being ministered to went after Pst Chris but was prevented by the ushers from getting too close. After he was done with ministering to others , Pst Chris asked that the lady be brought to him, he asked what the problem was, that was when she now told him about the thirteen demons and that she could still hear their voices. Pst Chris then decided to minister again to the woman. He asked for the demons to leave, and after a while he told the lady to go that she was free; the lady stood there confused and told pst Chris that she could still hear the voices.

At this point she even began to plead with pst Chris to please help her, he prayed a second time and told her again that she was free, he even asked her to confess with her mouth that she was free. The lady obeyed and spoke out saying "I am free", Pst Chris then said "Its over" this German lady shook her head and said "I'm sorry pst Chris I cant say I'm free when I'm not, I can still hear their voices even now" At this point, pst Chris was in a real fix, the whole auditorium was dead silent, infact I felt embarrassed on behalf of pst Chris.

He immediately began to employ all the tactics known to him to get this lady to accept a non-existent freedom, but trust Germans, she didn't budge one bit. Finally, after about 45mins, pst Chris gave in and then asked her to go. He then told the audience that "this lady needs to attend five more sessions" i.e the lady was to complete five healing school sessions before she would be ready to be delivered. Hmmmm!!

So judging by scriptures, who needed to have faith in this case: is it the poor lady who flew several miles across boarders to attend 2 weeks of healing school or is it pst Chris who claims to be anointed of God?

dappy777:
Sir John,

This is some very disturbing account you have of the healing school. I dont know what to believe now.

I have to attend a session to confirm the accuracy of your stories.

Feel free, although you just missed the most recent session in Lagos. I'm still waiting to see if there is anybody who observed the session.