₦airaland Forum

God is a loving God that is why he created us with mind and free will.

Maynmann:
But according to you if god said rape is good my conscience would have said rape is good right?

Why did david rape another man’s wife, was he not created in elohim image?

exactly, that is why it would be contradictory to his nature as a loving God. However, if God does not exist humans would have no value inherently and so love or hate will make no difference ultimately.

Maynmann:
So nothing is good or bad then except what your god says, why call him a good god then if he decides what is good and bad?

I don’t need a basis to not be a rapist unlike you.

He is good because apart from his laws he gave mean a mind and free will to determine the truth and verify his goodness.

Not only, does his law says love your neighbour as thyself but I have also found out that love is good for all humans because it carters to well being of others.

Maynmann:
I don’t need a basis to not be a rapist like you, if your god said rape is good then is good, so what’s the basis of your morality then?

How can you have free will when your god is omniscience?

You have no basis for it, the only reason you don't rape is because of your conscience, which God placed in you.
A lion does not know whether rape is good or bad, nether does a chimp but you know because you are made in God's image.

Maynmann:
Why did elijah kill those little kids then?

yes but God did not command him to do so.

Maynmann:
What makes a thing good if your god can say rape is good?
And how is that “objective morality”?

A mercedes car does not have a free will.

If God make rape to be a good thing then rape becomes good, ultimately without God no basis for morality.

what is the basis of morality as an atheist?
But free will does not exist in the atheistic world view.

hopefulLandlord:
stay on track my friend. so you're saying what makes these things wrong is because it's universally wrong?

My world view is that God created everybody so doing harm to anybody is wrong universally, atheism has no room for this.

Maynmann:
Is something good because yahweh decrees it to be good, or does yahweh decree something to be good because it is in good in itself?

You will be a rapist if your god told you to be, you don’t know what morality means

If God says rape is good then it will be good. My question is, can you from an atheistic world view establish why rape is bad?


As a theist I believe God exist and as God he alone decide what is right and wrong because he created all things.
A Mercedes car makes a car an add the manual on how to operate the car, you don't go about ranting why Mercedes company should be the one dictating how the car should be driven and the maintenance of it.

budaatum:
The wrongness of murder, lying, fraud, cheating does not depend on individual choice. Before your Yahweh was created, Egypt, Rome, Greece, China and Yorubas along with most societies, all had laws against those wrongs. Most societies figured out for themselves that those things are detrimental to society and are therefore wrong and did not need any gods to tell them that.

We all agree it is wrong but we all cannot explain why it is wrong, and atheist cannot explain why something is wrong objectively, that is the case.

Maynmann:
What makes it wrong?

Your yahweh was wrong when he asked abraham to lie then.

when did yahweh ask Abraham to lie?

Maynmann:
What makes it wrong?

Your yahweh was wrong when he asked abraham to lie then.

Because God is against it.
You are beating about with no bearing, atheism has no basis for objective morality,

Amujale:
Where?

You cannot use your foreign extremist ideology to prove your foreign extremist ideology, wake yourself up when you can't find one archogical evidence of any of your fictional characters.

I suppose this is something you ought to restudy and come back here to make amends to this reaching you have going on.

truth is extreme, because the existence of truth does not allow contrary views.
What is extreme about Jesus?

Amujale:
Ignorance isnt said to be bliss on its own accord, yet, once one has experienced the truth, Ignorance cannot be used as an excuse any longer.


You're jumping the ranch, you cannot invoke false narratives as your source and at the same time neglect your responsibility for the validity of such source.

The Christian bible isn't a history textbook, my advice is for you to bin all the nonsense you're currently reading and instead go and pick up proper history books.

For the umpteenth time, kindly provide us the proof of these fictional characters and false narratives of yours or accept the facts as stated above and make the necessary amends to your viewpoint.

You are not serious.
Almost all scholars and historians agree that the book of the Gospels are true history sources.

hopefulLandlord:
okay, so what's universal morality?

Adultery, taking innocent lives, stealing etc
My friend this is not the point, the point is atheism does not have any basis for morality.

Maynmann:
Is lying moral?
Is lying to save your life moral?

It is wrong regardless

budaatum:
What is objective morality?

objective morality means what is wrong or right is not dependent on individual choice

hopefulLandlord:
what is objective morality?

It means what is having a universal morality.

budaatum:
Nigeria did not borrow from Judeo-Christian world view before the so called Judeo-Christian world view was sold to you. In fact, the Islamic world view arrived in Nigeria before Christianity did, and we had laws against murder, lying, fraud, cheating before it arrived, which at this point makes me wonder what you know about this topic.

But Nigeria and Islamic countries are theistic apart from that the argument is simple,
Atheism has no basis for objective morality.

budaatum:
Rubbish! Countries that don't do your God still have the absolute wrongs of murder, lying, fraud, cheating. We Nigerians had laws against those wrongs before your God arrived there.

that is because those countries are borrowed from Judeo-Christian world view.
The argument is that atheism has no basis for morality and so far no reasonable reply.

Maynmann:
Is something good because yahweh decrees it to be good, or does yahweh decree something to be good because it is in good in itself?

No Not just because yaweh decreed it but morality exist because we are all created by God and therefore has innate value, the atheistic world view does not allow for such.

Wagwanbrethren:
First, you aren't providing any evidence, second you aren't telling me where or how your God popped up since you say the world can't pop up out of nothing. Your God is said to be perfect, why comparing him to a faulty vehicle? 🤣
Why did you even choose to respond to that, and ignore my other points?

In the world, there is much evil. This evil includes natural disasters, diseases, and the suffering of innocent people. If God exists, why does he allow this evil to exist? If God is good, he would not allow evil to exist. If God is all-powerful, he could stop evil. If God is all-knowing, he would know of the evil in the world. This leads to the conclusion that evil disproves the existence of God.

You are still not providing a single evidence of God's existence, neither do you make any attempt to prove how the universe is an evidence of God's existence. For one,there are numerous logical explanation that can be demonstrated on how the universe came about,but can the same be said about your so Called God creation? Explain and demonstrate how he did it!

There are no numerous logical explanation, either the universe is eternal or There is a creator.
By the way if you ate thinking eternal universe then sorry, it has bei g debunked.
All evidence points ro the fact that the universe has a beginning and the ultimate cause should be outside of space and time.
So evidence for God actually exist.
It takes faith to believe the something can come into existence without a cause it is in fact stupidity of the highest degree.


No you got it wrong, the faulty vehicle represent this world and its people.
Just as a faulty vehicle does not disprove an auto maker so an evil world does not disprove a creator.

Secondly, without God there will be no ultimate basis to morality no meaning to life no free will, just mindless atoms floating about

Wagwanbrethren:
Sweetheart, that's your claim and you can't back it up with any proof. I didn't ask what existence popped out of, I only said provide and demonstrate God's existence. Also,if you claim the universe was created by God,and came pop out of nothing,then explain how your God came into existence. Not the rambling, a sensible explanation!

It is important to note that there is a difference between proving and disproving something. Proving something requires that there is evidence that supports the claim
Disproving something, on the other hand, only requires that there is evidence that disproves the claim. With that in mind, it is clear that there is no evidence that supports the claim that the creation is proof of God or that the universe is proof of God. In fact, there is evidence that disproves both of these claims.

For example, the universe is billions of years old, and it is clear that it did not come into existence a few thousand years ago, as some people believe. If the universe was created by God, then it is reasonable to expect that there would be evidence of this. However, there is no evidence of God’s involvement in the creation of the universe. Similarly, the creation is full of flaws and imperfections. If God created the universe, then it would be reasonable to expect that it would be perfect. However, the creation is not perfect, which suggests that it was not created by God.

In addition, there are many things in the world that are not compatible with the idea of a creator God. For example, natural disasters such as earthquakes and hurricanes, as well as the existence of evil and suffering, are not compatible with the idea of a benevolent God. If God created the universe and is all-powerful and all-good, then it is reasonable to expect that there would be no evil or suffering in the world.

It is very reasonable to conclude that the creation is not proof of God and that the universe is not proof of God.🤷‍♂️
Say something else!

I am not a sweet heart by the way.

The existence of evil does not disprove the existence of God no more than a faulty Mercedes benz disproves the existence of a Mercedes auto company.

Look at it this way
You found a shoe in the forest, is it logical to think the shoe got there by itself or is it more logical to think somebody put it there?

It is more rational, to hold the view that there is God because the evidence are overwhelming.

MaxInDHouse:
Of course they will claim there is basis but the problem is they don't know why there must be basis for morality since each of them want to be absolutely free without restraint!

without the concept of God there is no absolutely right and wrong.

budaatum:
Nonsense! It is very objectively wrong for you to murder me or lie to me or commit fraud on me or cheat me or for me to do any of those things to others based on their religion, region, tribe, race or gender. And it is definitely not right for me to murder you or lie to you or commit fraud on you or cheat you regardless of your religion. Besides, if I do any of those things to you, I lack the privilege of excusing myself by asking some God to forgive me so I can go sin again.

Atheists, I'd say, would in fact mostly have an objective morality as opposed to the subjective morality that a religious person might have, especially since some religions approve of murder, lying, fraud, cheating where other religions, region tribe, race or gender are concerned. It is after all not atheists who pour petrol on thieves and set them alight on Nigerian streets, and being a pastor does not mean one may not lie or cheat others.

That said, a person's morality is always mostly subjective to the person regardless, though we can all accept that some things like murder, lying, fraud and cheating are objectively, and should be subjectively wrong too.

Why is it objectively wrong?

You cannot be an atheist and have an objective morality meaning morality values that is true to everyone regardless of region, tribe, race or gender?

Meaning you cannot say murder, lying, fraud, cheating, or any vice is objectively wrong but that does not mean that atheists are not moral only that they have no basis to say this or that is absolutely wrong.

Wagwanbrethren:
Geez, I only requested for a proof of God's existence. That's all.
At least if you claim he does exist, you should be able to prove it! 🤷‍♂️

The creation is the proof of a creator.
It takes dumb faith to believe existence pulp out of nothing.
Order and structure always comes from Intelligence.
These evidences are all provable.
and interpreted it according to experience.
How do doctors know there is cancer in someone, they diagnose and interpret the result.

From our experience the bones of a bird is different from that of a mammal.

The evidence for God is this universe, we examines the reality and see that life always comes from life, order and structure always comes from Intelligence, so a well structured and well put together universe plus the existence of life points to an ultimate creator.

Wagwanbrethren:
The moment you realize there is no God(s).
Intelligence and curiosity. Plus, we were all born without any belief, religion whatsoever!

If there is no God, then there is no freewill, morality becomes subjective meaning nothing is absolutely, right and wrong.
Existence becomes illogical and meaningless.

Amujale:
Kindly point us to one archaeological evidence for any of your fictional characters, just one.

There are tons of evidence that proves the books of the gospel as true.
The primary evidence for Jesus existence are the books of the gospel and archeological evidence points to the book of the gospel as true. Here are a few

Amujale:
What type of logic is this?

This isnt a question regarding a competition on the number of historical characters any of us can come up with, is it?

It's you claiming that your fictional character is meant to be real, quit buck dancing, and provide us with genuine proof or simply accept the facts as stated earlier.

It is your logic, what do you prove a historical document as genuine?
Hope you know that the books of the Gospel are regarded by scholars and historians as genuine but you an ignorant man disagree.

Amujale:
The sources you're claiming are based on fakery and falsehood, this isnt a slight to the publisher's, Wikipedia is one of the most unbiased and reliable encyclopedias that exist out there, the point here is directed at your so-called sources, out of what was meant to be hundreds of historians in those days, the only ones that you could come up with in your post was Josephus and Tacitus, coupled with the fact that these are widely known to be problematic and as such rendered as being without any merit.

Josephus was a colourful commentator, the same one credited as the writer who invented the Jesus storyline, eliminating this particular writer out of the discussion.

Nope you can't eliminate Josephus without any proof,
What is the proof that Josephus invented Jesus story line?

Tacitus writings are forgeries.

source:

•Tacitus and Bracciolini: The Annals Forged In The XVth Century authored by John Wilson Ross.

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/9098/pg9098.html

haha, you are one funny clown I have ever met, so all the modern scholars that endorses tacitus as a true historian and writer all all crazy?

There never was a person who walked this Earth called Jesus Christ, all the narratives you're peddling are based on a combination of fakery and falsehood, these are the reasons they're called false narratives.

It's pretty simple, we MUST bin all these foreign extremist ideologies and concentrate our focus on reality.

emotion is not proof.
Scholars and historians generally agree that Jesus is historic person, that actually existed, take not these historians are not even Christians yet.

Fun fact do you know that there are more archeological evidence for the historicity of Jesus than for Julius Ceasar?

Amujale:
Are you going to answer my question, yes or no.

It isn't a trick question.

Since by your own wordings, you claim your fictional character to be real, then it shouldn't be hard for you to prove it.

Kindly bear in mind that there's no appetite here for any inconsequential gibberish.

I'm assuming this to be the opportunity you've been craving to substantiate the false narratives that you continue to perpetuate.

Go!

what false narratives, scholars and historians have found that Jesus was an historical person, even atheists, pagans etc they found out that Jesus really lived and walked on this earth.
But you that is ignorant that have done no research declare him as fiction.

Is Mohammad a fiction or an historical person?
Is nelson madela, Christopher Columbus
, Isaac Newton fiction or historical figures?