₦airaland Forum

@babs787,

Here are what you consider similarities between Moses and Mohammed. I will show you that those that are valid are not peculiar to Moses and mohammed but other Prophets as well.

1. Father and Mother

Isaiah and other Prophets had fathers and mothers as well.

2. Miraculous Birth

Isaiah and other Prophets were not born miraculously as well.

3. Marriage Ties

Isaiah and other Prophets were marriage too.

4. Jesus rejected by his people

Wasn't Mohammed too rejected by his people? This is the case for all Prophets, true and fake alike.

5. Other worldly kingdom

i don't know what you mean by this.

6. No new laws

What are you talking about here

7. How they departed

There is no similarity between Moses and Mohammed here. Mohammed died of sickness while Moses was waxing stronger with age. Moses died peacefully and was buried by Angels. No man knew where he was buried. Moses chose a sucessor before death while the lack of same by Mohammed is what is causing the carnage all over the world now by Sunnis and Shias.

8. Heavenly abode

Are you saying Mohammed is in heaven? Who told you so? who are the witnesses. Moses was seen from the dead glorified and in conversation with Jesus. As for Mohammed, he confessed in fear he does not know what his Allah will do to him after he dies.

@babs787,

Moses was not a Jew but a Levi

This is like saying Tony Blair is not a European but a Briton. I'm sure you know he is both. Same thing with Moses, he may have being of the tribe of Levi, but he is certaibly a Jew or a Hebrew.

Well, both of them married while Jesus never did. You claimed that Muhammed preached Polygamy while Jesus and Moses preached Monogamy, can you please bring out from the bible where it is said that you must not marry more than one wife as said by both of them.

Your arguments are just becoming laughable. The fact remains that Mohammed and Moses view marriage differently which is evidenced by their lifestyle. Polygamy is a consequence of the fall in the Garden but it is not God's divine plan just a Jesus said: but from the beginning it was not so.

I will explain that when we get to the phrase, ‘I will put my words in his mouth’

There is no explanation to this. Mohammed claimed an angel spoke to him and not God directly. If he hears directly from God, there will not be what is called the abbrogated verses.

Here, they were all buried but Jesus rose the 3rd day (as put by Christians) while muhammed and moses never did that.

Why you are bringing Jesus into the picture here is beyond me. Are we not comparng Mohammed to Moses? In any case, can you point out where moses was buried? No. Can you pint out where Mohammed was buried? Yes.

Muhammed did too

What? How many people saw an angel talk to him? None. The only thing close to witness is the observance of his numerous seizures which to a trained eye is no more than a glitch in the brain. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seizure

We are talking similarities, like unto thee and not ‘appearing together’

Is that a way of saying you see no similarities between Moses and Mohammed here?

He performed many miracles just like in the above

You are talking about fairy tales with no validity here. For instance, over 500 people saw Jesus after His resurrection. A tale by one seeking to be relevant is not a proof.

Muhammed saw God too during his ascension to heaven

Is that so? Who ascended with Him and testified to this ascersion. Moses had at least 70 people with him when they sat face to face with God. And by the way, that travel by Mohammed to heaven is no more than a tale told by a great story teller.

@trini_girl,

TayoD, confess now, don't tell me u never try some ganja in your life. I'm sure u have.

The only thing I've tried is a little wine (for my stomach's sake)  .  I don't know for what reason to give ganja a try since my head is very clear as it is.

@trin_girl,

what kind?

LOL! to the power of infinity!

@babyosisi,

when I get to your level of not reasoning like a human anymore,I'll let you know.

I don't know what to make of what you wrote here.

@babyosisi,

what do you call perpetual debt?
mortgage?
School loans?
car loans?
In case you don't know most multi millionaires in Nigeria in legitimate businesses take out bank loans which they have to pay back,how do you think the banks survive in Nigeria?
Money begets money.
The last time I checked Nigeria is not better blessed financially than America,if it were so,you would have been there not here.

Again, you have put forth a human argument here.  As far as God is concerned, borrowing is not a blessing. To be the head, you must be the one lending and not the other way round. Everything that is not a blessing is a curse whether it is mortgage, loans or whatever. Go through Deut 28 again. When you are blessed, you lend and when you are cursed, you borrow. Simple.

I did not come to the You.S. for economic reasons. Financially, I was more liquid in Naija than I am here in the You.S. at the moment.  Asset wise, I do have more now than I did in Naija.  Other reasons brought me to the You.S. and it isn't everyone in the You.S. that is here for economic reasons.

@ishmael,

how many of such commandments have u kept or observed properly?? Is it only paying of tithes that God commanded people to observe?? What about the sabbath day, do you also observe it??

for Christ's sake just as the sabbath is of no more significance for a christian to gain salvation so also is the tithes; that was why the apostle Paul said that we are no longer living under any law.

I do keep all the commandments the way I know how. I do not have any other God but Jehovah - do you?  I do not covet my neighbours property - do you? I rememeber the Sabbath day to keep it holy - do you (Christ is my Sabbath). I love the Lord my God with all my heart with all my soul and with all my stregth and my neighbour as myself - do you?  Am I under the law because I obey these laws? - certainly not.  Am I blessed for keeping them - certainly!  Will I be cursed if I do not -certainly!

The law is an attempt by God to highlight His righteous standards to His creation.  There is certainly no sin condemned by the law that is permitted in the New Testament! Ceremonies may have been done away with, but the law of love which is the core virtue of the Law of Moses is still in place today.

Like I said, Christ is my sacrifice and my sabbath, so there is no need today to offer blood sacrifices or sit at home on a particular day.  However, I find no scripture that tells me that Jesus is my tithe or that He is the reality of the tithe.  Until I do, I will keep acknowledging that Jehovah is not only my Lord, but that He is the possessor of everything through payment of the tithe (just as abraham, the father of faith did).

@babyosisi,

research tells us that only 6% of American pentecostals paid tithes in 2002.
Most gave freewill offerings. Who knows the statistics in Nigeria.

From information I got rently, about 12% pay tithe as at last year. 

And the last time I checked,the Church in America is certainly under no curse

It depends on what you understand by a curse.  Curse to me is the absence of blessings.  I doubt if the average Nigerian Christian is in as much debt as the average Aemrican Christian.  Tell me, is being in perpetual debt a blessing or a curse? See Deuteronomy 28:44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

@babs787,

Tayod, you have attacking me based on the unlikes but you have not posted the similarities between the two.

Who is attacking you? What do you mean by the loose use of that language?

Go back and read my post again. I mentioned that there is no thing special about the similarities you claim exists between Moses and Mohammed. All you claim in similarities is common to as many prophets of the bible as I can think of. So your arguments fall straight to the ground.

I am waiting for your paste up from other websites.

@babs787,

Three unlikes

1. Jesus is not like moses, because according to christians, jesus is a God but Moses is not.

2. Acording to christians, jesus died for your sins while Moses did not.

3. According to you, jesus went to hell for three days but Moses did not go there.

based on the three unlikes above, jesus is unlike moses, so the prophesy cannot be for him.

I am dissapointed that you ould only come up with 3 unlikes and yet come to such a conclusion. Let me now tender at least 10 unlikes between Moses and Muhammad.

1.  Moses was a Jew while Muhammad was not.

2.  Moses was a Monogamist while Muhammad was a polygamist.

3.  Moses was literate while Muhammad was illeterate 9at least that is what they claim).

4.  Moses was a Shepherd while Muhammad was a trader (and later a raider)

5.  Moses heard directly from God, Muhammad did not.

6.  No one knows where Moses was buried, while Mohammeds grave is known.

7.  Moses had numerous eye witnesses to his divine encounters while Muhammad had nothing.

8.  Moses appeared with Jesus in the New Testament while Muhammad did not.

9.  Moses performed miracles, while Muhammad did not.

10. Moses saw God face to face while Muhammad did not.

So based on your reasoning, Muhammad is absolutely not the one prophesied in Deuteronomy.

And as per the similarites you stated, same applies to Joshua, David, Nehemiah, Elisha, Isaiah etc, So what is your point?

@Ishmael,

Why do you people always emphasize on some and not all of the old testament laws?? what about keeping the sabbath day holy?? Why do christians ignore keeping the sabbath day holy?? If Tithes must be paid then the sabbath day must be kept holy too.

We are told in the New Testament that the Sabbath and animal sacrifices were a shadow of Christ.  No where are we told that the tithe was a shadow of anything. The tithe is refered to as belonging to God and taking it amounts to robbing Him.

@trini_girl,

I'm disappointed that you're not presenting any valuable rebuttal to my contributions.  I must take this to mean that you're unsure of your position and cannot defend it with relevent scripture, because this is not your style.
However, as  you wish, go ahead and pay your tax to the church sir, I choose freedom.

I am rather busy and that is why I have been unable to make rebuttals line after line. But that aside, I have pointed out something very relevant to this whole conversation which you have been side-stepping. In response to my submissions, you kep quoting scriptures that are compleely irrelevant to what I have said.

I have made clear that Abraham and Jacob were not under the law and I am particular about why the two paid tithes on ALL their increases despite the fact that there was no law. Please do not refer to the tithe as practiced under the law of Moses to address this issue as it does not fit.  So tell me, why did Abraham and Jacob considered it covenant obligations to pay tithe and why shouldn't we? When we have gone past this, then I will begin to deal with the N.T teaching about the tithe.

I am also reminded how you claimed in our other discussions that Melchizedek was actually Jesus Christ.  If indeed he was a pre-incarnation manifestation of Christ (which I don't believe so), how come he received tithes then and not now?

And by the way, you have no freedom to rob God.

@trin_girl,

Again, you are refering to tithing as practiced under the Law of Moses. How was it done before the Law of Moses ever came into being?

Where does all this tithe go? To any pastor here or friends of pastors, please what do you do with the money?

I can't recall Abraham asking Melchizedek the same question. We say our faith is patterned after Abraham and yet we do not do his works. What kind of children are we?

@trini_girl,

You are making one obvious and unintended mistake in your reading and explanation regarding this tithing issue.  Tithing has nothing to do with the law.  Tithing was brought into the law and did not originate from the law.

Abraham and Jacob were not under the law and still paid tithe. I am not under the law, so why should I not pay?

Your rendering of Hebrews 7 isn't really refering to tithing per se.  Our need that Jesus fulfilled as a High Priest is not to give us permission to eat that which God says belongs to Him.  Tithes belong to God mcuh before the law came into effect and a transient law does not remove an eternal fact.

Abraham did not offer agricultural products as tithe and neither did Jacob.  How you claim the tithe is only agricultural products is still beyond me.

@Babyosisi,

You are putting forth a lot of human argument which sound good to the reason but in my estimation, don't hold up to the light of divine revelation.

Giving, whether in a time of plenty or a time of need, is never an easy thing in most cases. You can always think of a thousand and one things to do with that money.

I think you are the second person I have heard talk about some Pastors requiring their members to pay tithes from their credit cards. Needless to say, that is not the Bible. Tithes are a percentage of your increase and not a percentage of a want. God is not a task-master and will never have you go into debt to pay up what He expects from an increase.

I am often perplexed by people's argument that our needs should take priority over God's. God said if you do not pay tithe, you are robbing Him. When did He turn over the ownership of the tithe to us? He already promised in His Word that He will give seed to the Sower. If you have no seed to give, perhaps it is because you are always fond of eating them.

While I have disproved everything that trini_girl has tabled as argument against the tithe, I am yet to find anyone show me where the N.T. says the tithe is done away with. Please do not say we are not under the law anymore because Abraham and Jacob were not under the law and yet paid tithes as a matter of covenant relationship with God.

@babyosisi,

trinigirl this is one I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I have no qualms about this.

The tithes were agricultural products,animal rearers were not expected to tithe.
There were three types of tithing in the old testament and on one type they sat together and ate their tithe?

You are looking at the tithe as practiced under the law of Moses.  the trick is to consider how it was done before the law of Moses came into effect. 

When was the last time anyone participated in consuming their tithes?

Don't we do that eac time we are in church and are fed by the word of God through mediums and materials paid for by our tithes?

Abraham gave tithes of the spoils of war,I am yet to conquer any wars!!

Abraham gave of his increase.  Jacob his son, learning from his father also paid tithes of ALL his increase.  Wasn't Jacob a Shepherd?  Genesis 28:22 - And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Please brethren don't let anyone intimidate you and tell you a curse is upon you when you don't tithe.

So was God intimidating those He said are cursed if they stole what belongs to Him - the tithe?

It is not so!

I disagree.

@trini_girl,

I have decided to respond to your submissions since it appears it is the basis for most of the contributions on this thread so far.  Here we go.

1. Tithing was never money, it was food.

So it was food that Abraham took as spoils and gave to Melchiizedek? I think not. Melchizedek was the one that brought bread and wine to the table as a sign of the covenant.  Abraham gave Melchizedek the tithe of the treasures he retrieved from the war and not foodstuff.

2. Tithing was for the tribes of Israel

So which tribe does Abraham and Jacob fall into?

3. Tithing was under old testament law.

That may be true, but the issue here is whether tithing predates the law of Moses or whether it is just a part of the law.

4. We no longer live under law, but under the dispensation of grace.

Abraham and Jacob didn not live under the law either yet they paid tithes on all their increases.

5. We are admonished to give, give cheerfully out of love on another and for God, whether it's 5, 10, 15 or 50%

Nobody compelled Abraham to give the tithes either.  He recognised Melchizedek as the type of Christ who mediates the covenant he had with God and also recognises that Jehovah is the primary Possessor of all things while he is the secondary Possessor.  Abraham gave cheerfully.

6. The death and resurrection of Jesus has given us a wonderful, better NEW covenant, that replaces the covenant of law and judgement with mercy and grace.

Abraham was also not under the law of judgement as you refer to it.  And by the way, the priesthood we have in the New Covenant is fashioned after that of Melchizedek. So what did Melchizedek do? He received the tithe and confered a blessing.  Needless to say that Jesus does the same thing.

7. Nowhere in the new testament is there scripture that supports the giving of 10% of you salary to a religous  institution

I really don't understand what you mean by religious instituion.  As far as God is concerned, if you do not pay the tithe, you are robbig Him.  That principle is very clear in the book of Malachi and in Melchizedek's meeting with Abraham.  Melchizedek emphasised that God posseses all things, and Abraham acknowledged it through the payment of the tithe.

8. Nowhere under the new convenant does it make tithing a mandatory pre requisite for being a "member" of any religous institution.

I really don't know how to respond here because I know no institution that asks people to pay their tithes as membership dues. Abraham paid tithes as a covenant obligation and Jacob did the same as well, learning very well from his father.

9. Religion has used this lie for their own personal gain and is totally contrary to the teachings of Christ.

So Mellchizedek and Abraham were in connivance to contradict the teachings of Christ?  I tire for this thinking o.

10.  The tithe (food) in the old testament was never used for the church building, but kept in a storehouse so that those in need, in times of drought can be fed.

Once again, this notion is not supported by the first instance of tithing we see in scriptures.  Abraham paid the tithe not for the poor, but to acknowledge 1. his covenant with God 2. that God is the primary possessor of all things 3. to provide gifts for Melchizedek's ministry as a Priest 4. to receive the blessings of the covenant.

11.  The principle of the tithe is the same principle in the new testament.  Give and it shall be given back to you, sow and you shall reap harvest. Both substantially and spiritually.

The principle of the tithe is to acknowledge yourself as God's steward and to receive the blessings of the covenant.  And by the way, there is a difference between the principle of giving and receiving and the principle of sowing and reaping.  The first has to do with blessing people while the second deals with sowing into the Gospel.

To discuss this tithing issue, you need to focus more on those who paid before the law even came into effect, rather than put your attention on how it was used and practised under the law.

Cheers.

@topic,

When Governors (especially those in Baba's bad books) were suspected of corruption, EFCC pounced on them without due recourse to the law and the constitution. On the other hand, when the Presidency is found wanting, out leaders feel it was high time they set up a panel to review and reconcile the obvious gaps.

Where is the EFCC? Why the selective treatment?

I hope OBJ and co will renovate and revamp our prisons before they get out of office. It is almost certain they will be spending a good portion of their retirement time there.

@Backslider,

This TV YOU SEE I HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF IT HOWEVER IT IS MY PERSONAL CHOICE TO HATE IT. HOWEVER I WILL NOT PREVENT ONE TO WATCH OR NOT TO WATCH.
THE ENLIGHTENMENT IN THE TV IS 2% the Rest is evil that is my PERSONAL.

Thanks for letting your moderation be known unto all and for not insisting that others must be guided by your persuasion.  

However, this still does not answer my question or inquisition. Does the DLBM still consider the T.V. the Devil's Box by doctrine? I am very close to DeeperLifers and I have even been to a Pastor's home while his kids were watching T.V.  While not asking him any question, he said he hardly allows his kids to watch T.V. and the day I visited was one of such exceptions. Unfortunately for him, I have been there several times and found the T.V. on almost all the visits.

@TV01,

Is there an alarm bell that rings in your head each time there is mention of politics or tithes on this forum? Are those words the carcasses that get your eagle hovering above our heads - sometimes annoyingly?  

In any case, while I have no problems with you getting rid of your out of production 'black and white' telly, I am amused by the fact that you can still surf the web where there is significantly greater evil than there is on telly. Just like the wine and the telly that you have mentioned, there is significantly great evil associated with them, just as there is significantly great righteousness associated with them.  And much to your chagrin, same applies to politics as well.

@TV01,

And what law of Moses are we talking about here?

@Backslider,

Okay, maybe I'm getting this thread off track a little, but I still have unaswered questions. How can we refer to T.V. as the devil's box and yet use it to propagate the Gospel? And how can the internet be so evil as well and yet you are propagating the Lord as best you know how through that medium?

I am reminded of what Paul says: I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Doesn't this apply to T.V., internet, money, politics etc as well?

@topic,

Here is what Jesus has to say: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

@Backslider,

Good for you. If you consider the T.V. as evil, to you it is evil. As long as you are fully persuaded in your conscience, your moderation is noted of by the rest of us.

However, isn't that same appearanc eof evil present in more ways via the internet through which you plan to hook up your monitor (better word shold be computer)?

Mmm. One thing catches my attention in all this. Has the DLBM rescinded its decision about the Television? I just wonder why they are now broadcasting on the airwaves when members are not allowed to own televisions? Has their been a change in policy towards the ownership and status of the T.V.? Anyone in the know should please share!

This is not to distract from the discussion. Just wanted to know what's up in that arena.

@Coloba,

I do feel for you and hope many will learn from your experience and not through their own.

I'm however curious about one thing: Which God are you refering to? Clarifying this will help us to know how to be in agreement with you. There is One whom the Bible refers to as the Balm in Gilead. If you have faith in Jesus, then I know your sins are forgiven if you repent and believe in Him, and that His healing power is available as long as you can tap into it.

Cheers.

@damosky,

the bible says that there is going to be a ressurection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and they would be judged according to their deeds. if then you have recieved your judgement and sent to hell fire, would you be ressurected back, then judged, then sent back to hell? why would there be judgement for those who have recieved the judgment of eternal torment again?

One thing that I think we should put into consideration is the fact that there is no time as it were in eternity. Eternity is in an ever present state of "now".  If you get into heaven today and ask the saints how long they have been there, the answer you'll get is "today". I hope you catch my drift.

That being said, the folks in Hell will also come to the white throne judgment where all unbelievers will appear before the Father. Believers will receive their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

So in other words, no one has yet received their full reward until after the judgements.  Hell, like I said previously is like a detention center like Alagbon where an accused is being held before being thrown into kirikiri (the lake of Fire).  See 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;.  This scripture is very clear that while these angels are still held in Tatarus (Hell), it is only temporary till they receive their due rewards after the judgement.

The rich man arrayed in "purple" almost certainly represents the rich law bound priestly elite, whilst Lazarus typifies the poor/gentiles who have Abrahams faith. It's a parable. Jesus was demonstrating to the stiff-necked, hard-headed, religious jews that the KOG was being opened up to the nations.

I have stated before that this is not a parable but a lesson of history. Here are some reasons why I hold to this belief:

1.  Jesus never mentions a name in his parables. He almost always starts his parables with the statement: the KOG is like ,

2.  Jesus used the word "certain" in describing the rich man and Lazarus. This is a definite article that indicates he had particular people in mind.  See verses 19 There was a certain rich man;  20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,. Jesus was essentially saying there was a particular rich man and  there was a particular beggar.

3.  In starting this parable, Jesus began by with the phrase: "There was", which shows He was talking about an event that took place.

The notion that the grave has two distinct parts one for the wicked and one for the righteous is nowhere portrayed in the bible. It is from old Jewish lore. One that The Lord used to make a point.

Actually, the grave has 3 dinstict parts:

1. Hades - where the unrighteous dead are held for a while. You can liken it to Alagbon which is a detention center before being sent to kirikiri (lake of fire). This is the place refered to as hell by most people.

2. Abraham's Bossom - where the righteous dead used to rest before Jesus moved them up with Him to heaven  Ephesians 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now when the righteous sleep, they are imediately transported to heaven - 2 Corinthains 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

3. Tatarus - This I believe, is the lowest part of the land of the dead where the angels who sinned in the times of Noah are kept till the judgment time - 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. . The location where they have been kept is called Tatarus and it is found in 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; . the word translated Hell in 2 peter 2:4 is actually the greek word trasliterated as Tatarus.

Apart from the above proofs, the Bible clearly teaches that Hell has several parts: Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?. The greek word translated as parts can be better translated as "compartments".

The fact that Hell is below the ground is also taught by other scriptures as Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath , and like I said previously, hell and abraham's Bosom are in different compartments below the ground by the sheer proximity we see of both in the story about Lazarus.

Matthew 25:Everlasting fire ~ Means just that, fire that cannot be quenched until it fully consumes. This is clearly outlined in 2 Peter 2:6 & Jude 7.  Likewise Everlasting punishment is easily understood as an irrevocable judgment. The second death is final, from which there will be no ressurrection or further pardon, hence the judgment handed down is final, eternal.

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life This passage is clear about what awaits the condemned ones - torment.  Even if we regard the everlasting to mean for a time period, the word punishment does not mean annihilation by any stretch of its use.  That same word is used in 1 John 4:18 and it does not suggests anything close to anihilation.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.   The problem I have with your interpretation of this verse is that you suggest S&G have already gone through a judgment that is yet in the future.  If indeed the eternal fire consumes until anihilation, why would Jesus say that S&G will still be up for judgment according to Matthew 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
My understanding of the eternal fire as used in Jude is found in Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. This scripture tells us what makes the fire eternal - it is from heaven.  That fire is different from the once that we know simply because of the source.

Luke 16: Even if one adopts a literal interpretation to this parable, there is nothing to suggest that the time spent by the wicked in hell is eternal. Is there anything, anywhere in scripture to suggest that Abrahams bosom is heaven?

The wicked can't spend eternity in hell because hell itself is not eternal. The lake of fire is eternal. Abraham's bossom is not in heaven, but actually in the ground like hell or hades. Remember it was actually side by side with hades. Howver, the occupants of abraham's bossom have now been moved to heaven when Jesus ascended.

@Bobbyaf,

It was already explained to the fora, and possibly you if you read it, that the phrase forever and ever is a faulty translation. No honest greek student including myself, could possibly walk away accepting that translation of forever and ever, when what was meant was "from ages unto the ages when we stop to consider that the original phrase existed in the plural.

Assuming I accept this your explanantion, how do I explain away Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. If everlasting contempt is for a period, then we must accept that everlasting life is also for a period.

So my burning-paper example above was just to show that the destructive effect of the fire is eternal , and not the fire itself.

This is a very bad example to butress your point. Do you realise the fire feeds off of the paper and it quenches as soon as the paper is all gone? That does not make the fire an eternal one does it?

@cute-ass,

BUT on the other hand i think abortion should be made legal. . . . . . it should be a thing of choice, if someone insists on having it despite the religious consequences then that should be their decision to make

Let me rephrase your statement the way I understand it. BUT on the other hand i think murder should be made legal. . . . . . murder should be a thing of choice, if someone insists on murder despite the religious consequences then that should be their decision to make.

In my humble opinion, the greatness, worth and civility of a society, government or organization can be measured by the way it treats its weakest and most fragile members.  Our unborn children are the weakest members of our society and how we treat them says a lot about how great and civil we are.

Taking inspiration from the scriptures that say "a living dog is better than a dead lion", Rev Chris Okotie said the following "Life in its basest form is still superior to death".

@babyosisi,

Is the situation in Nigeria so desperate that stealing can now be spiritualized amongst Christians?

Your statmement reminds me of what Jesus said: "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"  No wonder Nigeria is in such a mess.  If the church that is meant to be the light is so engrossed with corruption and the love for mammon, what hope is there for the society at large?!  It is so disgustingly frustrating!!!

@donnie,

@Backslider             As christians, we were born Holy when we were born again and as such we must live Holy lives. However, this is not the same as living 'holier than thou' lives. I Suggest you guys(church police) go look for the pastor of one of the many Christ Embassy branches in Lagos  who recieved money from the man; tell him what you have to say and hear his own side of the story so that you don't continue to heap condemnation on yourselves.

And while we look for that Pastor, we will also like to get in touch with Oyhaks himself who wrote a commendation letter to the man.  Here is what Oyhaks wrote in the letter: "I trust you are both fine and experiencing the glory of God in a greater measure laughing your way through, "  "In your life, God will do mighty things. He will cause you to excel and lift you up so high that the world can't but take notice of you, in Jesus' name. Amen"  See http://www.thisdayonline.com/archive/2003/03/30/20030330rel01.html

I guess we have all indeed taken notice of this thief in sheep's clothing.  And for those who say Oyahks had no hand in this money, I guess you have to come up with some other lies to explain away the letter he signed adressed to the thief.

The only people who heap condemnation on themselves are those who claim white to be black and vice versa.  How can anyone try to defend this daylight robbery in the name of Christianity?!

@babyosisi,

Thanks for calling a spade a spade. I don't know when being criticised for stealing becomes affliction for the sake of Christ.