₦airaland Forum

@Sisimose,

you people amaze me, how can you keep settling for less
how can u say atleast he is  ''LESS CORRUPT'' ,
I WASH MY HANDS  OFF , we deserve what we get, we really do

Thank you my sister.  They have no idea what they are talking about.  How can you ask me to bless an armed rober.  Someone robs you at gun point and you are consoling yourself that hewill at least spend your money in a more righteous manner than other armed robbers.  What a stupid conclusion by people who will forever be held in slavery!!

@topic,

I called Naija yesterday to speak with my mum.  I was surprised when she said she didn't participate in the presidential voting process. Her reason both shocked and astounded me. She said everyone was turned back by thugs at the polling station during the governorship election.  The thugs told them not to bother coming to vote since they have voted on their behalf!

This is in Ogun State where our current president is from.  Isn't the electronic capture system suppose to identify fingerprints and discard multple thumb prints by the same person? When will these daylight robbery and affront on the collective pysche of our people come to naught?  

I tire for Nigeria o, I am so close to giving up on her!!!!

@babs787,

Good day my people . One of the characteristics of a prophet is that whenever he speaks or prophesis, it must surely come to pass. While browsing through the bible, I came across some prophesies of God Jesus which I decide to put across to my christian friends to assist in explaining to me because the Jesus is my book is never a liar  and is even accorded a high status to the extent that a chapter is named after her mother (Surah Maryam 19). Please I need explanation on these, maybe sister pilgrims and brother stimulus can assist me.

I just understood where your prolem lies. You never sit down to study the Bible as the bible requires - 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God , rather all you do is browse  through it and you come out more confused than when you started browsing. I have mentioned to you before that the only way to read and understand the Bible is to do it the way the Bible dictates, but you never listen. I know the Qu'ran never tells you how to read and understand it, but the Bible does.  Until you follow the Bible's instructions, you will ever remain confused.

Now to answering your questions which are not only trivial but infantile.

1.
Mathew 1 v 23: behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name, Emmanuel, which is being interpreted, ‘God is with us’ Note; He was called Jesus instead and nowhere do we have it that Jesus has the same meaning as Imanuel.

He was also called Christ, Son of David, the Root of Jesse etc. So what is your point?  That Jesus was the regular name He used does not make Him less "God with us", which is what John refered to when he said: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, which is no less than Immanuel.

2.
Mathew 2 v 23: …he shall be called a Nazarene
Note: nowhere he was called such. Nowhere could we find such prophecy fulfilled

A Nazarene is a native and a dweller of Nazareth, and in that the scripturure you quoted answers itself - Matthew 2:23 - And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

3.  Mathew 19 v 27-29: the 12 disciples will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel
Not: but Judas Iscariot who was one of the twelve disciples betrayed him and they finally remained 11 (see Luke 24 v 9)
And your browsing through the Bible does not reveal to you that the place of Judas would be taken up by someone else Acts 1:20 - Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

4.Mathew 10 v 23: but when they persecute you in this city, flee ye unto another city, for verily, I say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the son be come.

Note; the disciples of Jesus fled and they have now perished for 2000 years with no sign of the Jesus.

You make the assumption that the word "you" refers to just the Disciples. Isn't that persecution still happening today? Jesus always have more than the Disciples in mind when He speaks. His thoughts are projected beyond their generation up to ours and the generations after.

5.
Mathew 12 v 39 – 40; An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign but no sign shall be given except the sign of the prophjet Jonah. For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the Whale, so will the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the hearts of the earth.

Note: Jesus was allegeldyl crucified on evening of Friday, but on Sunday morning, Mary Magdalene didn’t find him in the tomb. This makes up 2 nights. Friday and Saturday 1 day. Sunday none

I believe stimulus or someone else already provided with this answere.  Why do you belabour an issue that has already been dealt with. The bottom line is you need to look at the event based upon the jewish tradition and calendar so to speak.

6.Mathew 12 v 5: or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days, the priest in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?

Note: nowhere could we find the prophecy in the O.T

I guess you didn't browse long enough to read 2 Chronicles 23 where the Priests and others were commanded to come to the temple on the sabath day and so profane it without being held accountable for obvious reasons.

7.   Mark 1 v 2: as it is written in the prophets, ‘behold, I send my messenger before they face, which shall prepare the way before thee’
Note: Jesus quotes a statement in whch he says appaears in Isaiah, no such prophecy in Isaiah.

Where did Jesus claim that the statement was made in Isaiah? The 'prophets' is more than just the book of Isaiah.  One who studies the bible will realise that Jesus was making refernces to
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: .

8.Mark 10 v 19: thou knowest the commandments, ‘do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, defraud not, honour thy father and mother.

Note; there is no such commandment “Defraud not” in the OT or elsewhere in the OT (exodus 20 v 3-17)

Doesn't common sense tells you that Jesus must be refering to coveting your neighbours property when he said "defraud not"?  And isn't that what Leviticus 19:13 says: Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

9.mark 16 v 17-18: and these signs shall follow them that believe, in my name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues, they shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

Note: some Christians have died as a result of drinking poison, infact, many christiand had lost their lives as a resulty of being bitten by snakes and many are staying long in the hospital awaiting cure. Are they not believers?

Your lack of study ensures that you do not realise that Jesus hinged the fulfilment of the promises on one condition: faith.  Haven't you read that He said traditions makes the word of God of no effect?  Those who had faith in the promises saw a reality of it. Paul was bitten by a deadly snake ad never died, Paul and others cast out demons in Jesus name, spoke in new tongues and healed the sick by the laying on of hands.  That Mohammed died through poisoning only showed how powerless his allah is.

10.The Angel made a promise to many about th miraculous nature of Jesus in this world,

luke 1 v 32-33: ,  and the Lord God will give to him the throe of his father David and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever and his kingdom there will be no end.
Note: but Jesus was not granted that kingdom, he himself made the confession in this world
,  my kingdom is not of this world (john 18 v 33-36). Instead of him sitting on the throne, it was Herod that sat.

I will answer this in two parts. The first is that Jesus will only receive anything given to him directly by His Father. Even the devil offered Him all the kingdoms of the world and yet He refused to receive it becuase it will not be coming God's way.  God's way was for Him to receive the kingdom through His death and resurrection.
Jesus will sit on that kingdom at the second part of His second coming.  That prophecy wasn't for His first coming.

11. Luke 23 v 43: and Jesus said unto him, ‘verily I say unto thee, today, shalt thou be with me in paradise
note: according to John 20 v 17, act 1 v 31, Jesus wasn’t raised until the 3rd day and did not ascend until at least 40 days

When you cross over into eternity, there is nothing like night and day as we know it. Eternity is in an ever present state of 'now' and every point in time is 'today'. The thief receiving justification meant that he will not be condemned to hell but will move into life and will be forever with Jesus in paradise which has no night nor day.

12.John 5 v 46: Jesus said Moses wrote of him
Note: but nowhere could we find such in the OT.

I know you have tried to claim that Deuteronomy 18 speaks about Mohammed, but of course you are wrong as usual.  Deuteronomy 18 and many passages in the pentateuch were talking about Jesus.

13. John 7 v 8-10: Jesus told them he wouldn’t be going to the feast but went later secretly.

I thought we were talking about prophecy here. So what is your point?

14. john 20 v 9: for as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Note; there is nowhere in the OT where we have the above statement.

The fact is that there are several references to Him rising from the dead. However, most of them were in shadows meant for those who study and have His spirit to decipher. Here is a direct reference in Psalms 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

15. Romans 10 v 11: for the scripture said ‘ whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Note; no such statement in the OT.

The scripture refered to by Jesus is Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.  You seem to forget that the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT was written in Greek.

16. 1ST Thessalonian 4 v 17: and the death in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  
Note: Paul had counted himself among those that wil be alive during the 2nd coming of Jesus. He even counted himself among those who will meet him in the air.

Your assumption is totally untrue. Paul's point was the order of ascension and not that he will be alive when Christ comes back.  He, like I would made a statement expecting the Lord's return at anytime. If I were refering to the resurrection today as well, I will mention that the dead will rise first and those of us alive will rise afterwards.  That I say that does not mean I'm implying I will be here when Christ comes.  The same Paul mentioned in severeal scriptures about his impending death and sacrifice for the cause of Christ.


In summary babs787, you need to study more and stop making uninformed statements for obvious reasons.

@babs787,

You just don't get it do you? May I ask you one question as well. Which one of these jesus is the one spoken of in your Qu'ran?

@topic,

I think the first question you should ask yourself is: Does my faith (Christianity) permit me to marry someone of another faith (a muslim in this case)? I'm sure you do not need to be told that the Bible forbids such an arrangement.

How can you be "one" with one whose Lord is different from yours?

@nossycheek,

Get me right! All I said that at times when you want to attain some spiritual height and go before God in prayers, maybe in dry fasting, couples may have to abstain although with consent from both parties.

I am not sure I will say it the way you did. In any case, Paul encourages abstinence during a time of fasting and praying - 1 Corinthians 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

@topic,

I don't think the poster intended to compare the poor of both countries. Rather, his intentions is to bring to the fore, the negatives in those societies as well. They tend to focus and showcase our dark side, why can't we do same?

@topic,

I would love to take some pictures of street beggars and post right here but I am afraid of being sued if discovered!  Will Seun and other Nairalanders pay my legal fees in the event of litigation?   

@papi22,

Hardly did Obasanjo realise that he was talking about himself!!!!

@Mckren,

While you cannot completely remove a nation form the faith of its citizens, you can also not separate the faith of the citizens from the fate of the nation.  Everyone who has attained any level of sucees has done so based on a premise.  Okotie is where he is today based on his faith and the principles of life he imbibed from the bible.  You can not separate him from his faith, the same way you cannot separate Ya'radua and the likes from their faith.

As you have mentioned however, the sole document that binds our country together is the constitution.  Okotie has made this abundantly clear and said he will not allow any prayers (either by moslems, Christians, traditional worshippers etc) at his State functions.  Rather, Stae functions wholud beginning and end with the National Anthem.  This is someone who understnads what nationhood is all about.

I'm surprised you have no idea what he stands for since he has been saying the same things for the past 6 years or thereabout and not just during election time.  Here is a link to the manifestoe you asked for:  http://www.freshdemocraticparty.com/freshManifesto.pdf

@Agboola1,

i think if he wants to be a politician he should and if its music, teaching or  preaching it will be wise he chooses a profession and face it squarely.

What makes you think he can't be all that at the same time.  David was a King, a Prophet as well as a Psalmist at the same time.  None of the offices was in the way of the other.  He testified of going into God's house to worship 7 times each day.  Though a Pastor now, he has composed hundreds of songs which are used in worship in his church.  He is gifted, learned and a ver good Administrator.  Think of it this way, the church is the most vibrant and dynamic institituion in Nigeria today.  Much of this can be attributed to the pattern that trail blazers like Okotie put in place.  Such administrative and leadership skills are required in our nation today.

@topic,

And somone is trying to brainwash us here that PDP is not power-hungry afterall!!

@Sage,

If you CANNOT find that verse, is it too much to say so and rest the case, bros??

Over to you!!!!!!

@Stimulus,

You get patience o!!!

@topic,

What is it with all these incidents involving our politicians.

First Ya'radua was flown abroad for medical emergency.

Atiku followed with a strained muscle after exercising.

Then we learnt of the death of the AD flagbearer.

We were later spared the sudden death of Chris Okotie who was in a plane crash.

Now it is Buhari in a car accident.

Who is next? Is this a bad omen or what?

@Agboola1,

If god actually called somebody to lead he wont loose

Where did you learn your theology from? So you are telling us that any form of failure is a sign of God's absence?  Are you reading the same Bible I read? 

Just so you do not spread this lie, let me show you instances in scriptures that are contrary to the thought you are propagating:

1.  In Genesis 15:13, God told Abraham that his children will be in a land of captivity for 400 years.  However, the affliction lasted for 430 years - See Exodus 12:40-41.

2.  Please pick up your Bible and read Judges 20.  God told the entire nation of Isreal to war against Benjamin because of their sin.  Despite God's go-ahead, Isreal was defeated twice before God eventually gave them victory the thrid time.

There are situations like this throughout the Bible, but since this is not a religious forum, I hesitate to discuss it in-depth.

However, the principle is stated very clearly in Habbakuk 2:3 - For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.

God's modus operandi is different from man's.  God declares the end even before the beginning.  That the guy isn't Presido today does not make him or God a liar. The 'end' which God speaks of may linger, but it will surely come to pass!!!

Don't let's be quick to say things we know nothing about.

@debugi,

i do not blame him for stepping aside, it is obvious even to blind,deaf and dumb individual that there is nothing free and fair about the elections. the basic problem with most political parties is the absence of ideology, many parties assemble to fight an injustice or a ruling party.

what pat utomi and others like him should do is to plan ahead. build your party with solid idoelogies, do not wait till election time to affect the society, start putting up programmes, projects, seminars that will target the populace and disabuse their minds from the opinions of nigeria as a failed state. project that within eight or more years your party should have a solid structure, with credible leaders who can take up positions in government, this way you will be better prepared.

what is happening in this country cannot go on forever, people are begining to wake up to their responsibilties and with time nigeria must and will change.

Nice posts. I think this is what Okotie has been doing for the past few years now.

@Jeshua,

How can your post be sound and illogical at the same time?

There is nothing wrong with comparng kris and Martin. Both were fighting for a cuase though using different medium. Okotie today runs a health insurance scheme for the poor in Nigeria, did martin do that? Okotie spoke against the evil of the rulers of his days, Martin did that as well. Instrumentalities may differ, but the purpose is the same.

I know and love Graham, but that is is opinion. Melzhizedek, a priest of the Most High God, whom the Bible declares forshadows Christ Jesus was an earthly king and a Priest at the same time. How on earth we conclude our Pastors can't do the same today is beyond me. The dual role isn't for everyone, but for those with teh conviction, vision and the leading to do so.

@topic,

I have always been of the opinion that Utomi, like Gani and possibly Duke don't have what it takes to rule the present day Nigeria. They lack the vision, attitude and doggedness to help them attain that lofty ideal. I thought Utomi will wait to lose the election before giving up on Nigeria, but he chickened out much too soon.  And by the way, his call for the Senate President to take over borders on criminality.

In my humble opinion, Okotie is the only person I can point to who is unrepentantly committed to a change in Nigeria today, and his efforts is already paying off.  He has been the sole advocate and apostle of the philosophy of generational shift which is now adopted even by the ruling party.

Despite the fact that he lost at the last election, he never gave up on the dream and went to court to challenge the results. Being law abiding, he obeyed the court rulings but never gave up. He is back now and will be back agian if he loses out in this election.

He represents the generation and class of Nigerians we need in power. He is dogged and has risen from grass to grace in a dinstinguished fashion before the eyes of all Nigerians.  What more could we ask for? He is willing to challenge the status quo and has an unrivalled doggedness and passion that is second to none. I remeber a statement he made after losing out in the last election.  He said: "My Father lives in a city on a hill, so I have learnt how to climb mountains."   This is the same mountain he is climbing not for himself or his children (he has none), but for the future of Nigerians in general.  The mountain may be high and poses a great challenge, but with God and Nigeirans on his side, we will together get to the peak.

Let's give him a chance.  What have we got to lose but a bunch of old and recycled politicians with reduntant ideas for our great nation. Nigerians let's go FRESH - Faith, Responsibility, Equality, Security and Hope!!!!!!!!!!!

@nossycheek,

methink Okotie and his likes only want INEC allocation for campaign so that he can make some cool more money for himself and maybe from some politicians asking/them to step down.

, just thinking aloud!

Okotie could have taken up a position as a Minister or anything of the likes if he was in it for money. He is a highly principled person who never compromises his stand. How much money can INEC or anyone give him to shut out his conscience? He is not a money hungry individual, rather he is a great philanthropist. While some may complain about his flamboyant cars, it will be wise for them to consider the fact that he does not even have a house of his own. He rents the house he lives in now, and he has been in it for tens of years.

@Sage,

Yeah can you explain why Jeremiah would say God has planted the wicked

You are merely clutching onto straw to keep afloat on a quicking sand.

That God plants the wicked does not mean He plants wickedness. The same sense of that statement is what the N.T. teaches about God letting His rain fall on the rightreous and the unrighteous as well. Will you now accuse God of complicity in unrigheousness because He blesses them with rain and the likes?

@stimulus,

Thanks for that take. I have no clue where sage got his theology from. It justs boosts some people's ego to condemn the church and like the zealots of old, are not interested in the social events of their days.

Sage reminds me of what Jesus said regarding the scriptures: "how readest thou?"

@seggywilly,

what do i do, i need advise, plz

You don't need advice.  You just need to quit what you are doing, period!!!

@Sage,

1 For those that use Israel as an example, Israel was a chosen nation, a special possesion under a convenant, largely a theocracy and had a mandate and purpose from God. That though ended after the death of Jesus and the law convenant was no longer binding. Which nation today does God wholy support?

Technically, the covenant with Isreal is not over but only in abeyance.  Isreal, like Schwazeneger will say: Will be back!!!  What you are trying to say is that the nation of Isreal was/is a tool in God's hands to get His will done. Nations are still His tool today, and Governments are His servants.  And by the way, Melchizedek was a gentile king and a Priest of the Most High God whose priesthood is likened only to that of Jesus Christ!!!

2 Who does the politics of the Nations glorify. Does it vindicate the only Goverment of God under his son or are their national intrests their priority? Are the nations pursuing the will of God?

Have you read Matthew 25:31-46 before? In that prophecy, Jesus mentions the judgment of nations. Some nations will do His will and will inherit the kingdom while those who do not will enter into perdition.  The basis of the judgment of the nations is their works - how they treated Isreal.  Before you jump to conclusions, please realise no individual will enter His kingdom based on works but on faith in Christ.
When Paul mentions that Rulers are God's servant to execute judgment, does it sound like they are pursuing God's will or not? Are they in tandem with God's will or the devil's in fulfilling the duties of their office?

3 During the wars of the nations, for eg 2nd world war, so called christianity (actually a big time harlot) was involved in one of the greatest debacles of its history like it has done since apostacy crept in and still does today. The German Cardinals and their Vatican connection asked the people to pray for Germany because God was with them The German religious leaders blessed the troops and told Hitler that God was with them and asked the citizens to pray for the country. The Italian religious leaders and the Vatican blessed Italian troops and the Facist goverment and told them that God was with them and that the citizens should pray for the country. The Church of England blessed english troops and supported the goverment and asked the people to pray for the country since God was with them. The same story in france, eastern europe and the United States and much of the world.
What was the end result?
Millions of Catholics killing fellow Catholics
Millions of Protestants killing fellow Protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans, Episcopelians etc)
Catholic and Protestant Legislators voting to go to war and Kill fellow Catholics and Protestants

Catholic and Protestant Prime Ministers and Heads of states and Goverments signing of war acts to kill other Catholics and protestants.

The general so called Christians praying to God to help them to kill and finish off enemy countries where millions who profess the same faith live.

Everybody believing that God is with their own country  . Hilarious. Please guys who was God with in these situations.

What a shame!

I expected a better argument than this.  A Christian is duty bound to pray for his leaders whether they are doing right or otherwise.  Compromise on the part of a believer is not due to external influence but from an internal weakness.  Just like those Governments abused their offices in pursuing evil, the Christians abused theirs as well by compromising their faith.  Daniel and the other Jews never compromised their faiths in the face of Govenment opposition.  Those are the examples they should have emulated.

What has happened to the hallmarks of true christianity
1 Love among each other.
2 Separateness from the world.
3 Primary comission to preach about the rulership of christ which will destroy present goverments
4 Beign objects of hatred from all these worldly nations (because of non participation in its affairs)

1.  We've all witnessed your exemplerary love on nairaland - such love that those of us who believe in participating in politics have not displayed - right?

2. What's your definition of the world - politics?

3. You are talking of a future event. In the mean time, the present government, just like you is Christ's servant.

4. How many hate mails have you received today? How many times have you being flogged and thrown in prison like the early disciples which you are refering to? So the early disciples were hated for not taking part in politics?

Compare todays so called christianity with true first century christianity and its a sorry sight

Are you pointing an accusing finger or are you a part of the cancer you are quick to condemn?

Irrespective of if we want to acknowledge it or not, The truth remains that early christians advoided the politics of their day because worldy politics was and still is incompactible with true christianity. They realised that God's destruction of human rulership (and anything or people associated with it and YES THE HARLOT MASQUERADING TODAY AS CHRISTIANITY) was a certainty.

So you are a harlot?  Or are you separating yourself from the body! There is no iota of truth to suggest that early disciples stayed away from politics. Paul used the politics of his days to further his cause. The nation of Isreal was in servitude during those times and the Jews kept their tradition of having elders rule over them.

@topic,

And this same people were going to force an evil third term agenda on us. By the time that would have ended, the only source of power in Naija will be nothing but candles.

9ja4eva,

Hmm if that will do for a free and fair election.Why not?

Thanks for that submission. Is it not with the help of this same U.S. that OBJ was not able to foister his evil third term agenda on Nigeria? When the power of diplomacy is used we complain, and when diplomacy is exhausted and war eusues, we also complain. Na qwa o.

@topic,

Who loses if Chris Uba supports Ngige - PDP.

Who controls the security agencies - PDP.

Who is responsible for the abduction - You are right: PDP

@emmydee,

If Utomi fails to win,he will become the best president this country never had!

Based on what premise if I may ask? Because he is an accomplished Economist? Same can be said of Olu Falae? If all we need is an Economist, then we should just install Okonjo-Iweala (as our next President. We need more than an economic revival in Nigeria. We need a new way of thinking, of living and of relating with each other. We need one who is a proven leader of human and material resources.

While Utomi may have been propounding economic theories, a practical and compassionate approach to governance is what we neeed. I do not think he fits the bill.

@trini_girl,

No problem sha! On one condition, both you and TV have to agree with me that pre-marital sex as defined in my thread is not fornication. How does that sound? Small price to pay for the pre tax nairas I'm sure.

There is only one problem here. TV01 and I have never agreed about anything before. Do you think your ministry of reconciliation is strong enough to turn that around?

And who is asking for naira? Please send your taxes to me in pounds sterling. That way, we are sure it doesn't devalue before it gets here!!!!

@trini_girl,

And my favourite earthly MOG, TayoD!

Kai! I hope I am not your MOG in words alone. Practicalise your faith in my MOGness by sending me your tithes!! By the way, that should be before tax!!!

Haba!! Alhaji; softly softly oh!! Is this the sort of 'Quranic miracles' you want to show in support of your false claims. I thought you'll do better.
In the anatomy of the eye, do you know what is called the 'pupil'? That is the "space" or "hole" in the centre of the Iris, through which light rays enter into the eye. So, how can a "space" come down on his cheekbone? Olodo!
I have attached an annotated diagram of the eye to show you what is called the "pupil"; that your quran is a book of fallasies; only an indolent mind will believe what you wrote. See the picture:

Ojigbijigbi

@TV01,

You are joking right?

Wait a minute, I am trying to contact Paul to clarify his statement. Unfortunately, his phone is out of reception area. What do you think he was saying?

@stimulus,

No, my brother. I would have agreed with you if you and I have lived all through the 19th centuries and still dealing with these issues. However, that isn't the case; and I don't suppose that believers (especially those who were recently saved) are expected to know everything about the Christian faith even after a few years. However, I trust the Bible helps us to acknowledge that at every point in history, we all have different levels of maturity in our walk with Christ.

While I will not want us to drag this issue to death, I just have to mention that an institution that has existed for 19 centuries without getting its basic core principles clarified is not in good shape. 

Even so, it does not negate the fact that it is yet another type of baptism. And I believe that a careful study of John 21:18-19 is exactly to the point as an illusration of what is meant by that type of baptism.

Your point is noted even though i disagree with you.

However, here are a few questions and hints to help you think through why Paul had to re-baptize the dozen believers in Acts 19:

#1. We are not told in what Name John baptized people; other than the scriptures simply saying that his was a baptism 'unto repenance' (vs. 4; see Matt. 3:11), and unto the remission of sins (Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77 & 3:3).

#2. Now, as far as Paul's question was concerned, we can understand that both baptism were not the same: 'Unto WHAT then were ye baptized?' Their answer was: 'Unto John's baptism' (Acts 19:3).

#3. Now, based on the above, would you say that the apostle treated "John's baptism" as exactly the same as Christian baptism? If he thought they were the same, why then did he re-baptized those men who were called 'disciples' when Paul met them (vs. 1)?? It is clear from Paul's question, response and reaction of re-baptizing them, that John's baptism was not viewed as Christian baptism. It would be hideously unthinkable to repeat what one considers to be exactly the same thing in substance.

That is where we greatly differ. When Paul asked the question "unto what then were ye baptised"?  he wasn't thinking of water baptism, he was thinking of them being baptised into the Body of Christ!  Water baptism is not a pre-requisite to receing the gift of the Holy Spirit, but baptism with the Holy Spirit is. Baptism with the Holy Spirit takes place at the point of being born again. It is obvious that Paul initially thought these disciples were Christians but on hearing what they had to say, he concluded they were not.  Think about it, how can they be following John's doctrine solely after they must have heard of Jesus' death and resurrection and became christians? Paul taught them that Jesus is the one whom John preached about and they essentially need not be John's desciples any more.

So, it is highly improbable to arrive at an inference that those disciples had "never heard of the Holy Ghost" - they already had.

They said this themselves - Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The problem with the disciples in Acts 19:2 was not that they never heard any mention of the Holy Ghost; but that they had not heard the promise of His outpouring being fulfilled.

Your ascertion is even more problematic. How can you be a disciple of Jesus in that day and age and never heard of Pentecost? It is impossible. Those certain disciples were not Jesus' disciples up to the point Paul met them, rather they were John's disciples and weren't Christians.

Paul did not try to administer the baptism of 1 Cor. 12:13 to those disciples - indeed, no man can effect that, for that is the prerogative of the Lord Himself (Acts 2:47b). Please carefully note again the events of Acts 19:1-6. At least three baptisms were spoken of there: (a) John's baptism - by water, vs.3; (b) Christian baptism - by water, vs. 5; and (c) Spirit baptism - sovereignly by the Lord Himself, vs. 6.

Whether we try to administer the baptism with the Holy Spirit as mentioned in 1 Cor 12:13 or not, it takes place when we preach the Gospel and it is received by the recipient. Jesus is the one who carries out the baptism, though we do the preaching in His name.
My understanding of Acts 19:1-6 indicates two types of baptism - 1. The baptism in water - which is same as the baptism of John  2. the baptism with the Holy Spirit - which took place when they believed. 
One other thing, the baptism with the Holy spirit is different from beignt filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul did lay his hands on the disciples AFTER he had re-baptized them in the Name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:5). You can't miss vs. 5 before going on to vs. 6. Being born again is not the same thing as 'baptism in the Holy Ghost'. People are born again by simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31 and 1 John 5:13). The baptism in the Holy Ghost is a distinct experience that may or may not be attended by special signs - such as speaking with tongues (Acts 2:4) or prophesying (Acts 19:6).

However, 1 Cor. 12:13 states that by one Spirit we have been baptized into the Body; and yet again, that is quite a distinct issue from the experience of Acts 2:4 where the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost.

You cannot be born again without being baptised in the Holy Ghost.  It is through that baptism that you are made a part of the Body of Christ.  That is what 1 Cor 12:13 and Luke 3:16 - 17 teach.  The Disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost when hands were laid on them. Beign filled is not the same as being baptised with the Holy Spirit.  And every time in the book of Acts where people are filled with the Holy Ghost, it is evidenced by speaking in tongues. 

Yes, I remember Paul's bold statement in 1 Cor. 1:14-16. But hey, look at it again: "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; . . .also the household of Stephanas." Paul was clear in his statement that he did not baptize any of the Corinthians other than those he mentioned. And no, he certainly was not categorically denying that he baptized those dozen Ephesian disciples in Acts 19:1&6 (Apollos was at Corinth at the time). Whatever the case, Acts 19:5 tells me that water baptism was administered by the statement: 'they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus'.

Whether intentional or not, you left out a very valuable part of the statement in 1 Cor. 1:14-17 ,  I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: So while he may have refered to the corinthians initially, he used the opportunity to maeke a general statement of his ministry.  Like I mentioned earlier, I do not believe the baptism you referenced in Acts 19:5 is what you claim it is.

Acts 10:48 - "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Tha does not conclude tha the immersion was done in the name of Jesus as against in the name of the Father, Son or the Holy Ghost as commanded by Jesus.


Having said all that, I need to make something clear. My belief is that it makes no difference whether you are baptised in the name of Jesus, or in the name of the Father, Son or the Holy Spirit.  The most important baptism is the one done by Jesus Himself with the Holy Spirit. An unbaptised Christian is still a Christian since he/she is a member of that body.