₦airaland Forum

Naijaboy18:
Ok but can you tell us what Jesus has to do with these ants?

I didn't mention the word Jesus up till now.

If you are speaking about the Man Jesus born 2000 years ago, Nothing!

Maynman:
I don’t think you understand the question you are asking.

Why do you need to believe, you believe what you lack knowledge on.

I gave a background.
You deleted/summarised it to a single line of question . Now you are confused about the question




Do you have ANY good reason for your LACK of Belief in a Deity?

honesttalk21:
And Allah will confirm or reject what you say and what we do.

Allah is enough for me

It doesn't dawn on you that Islam was sent out primarily to stop your salvation through the Messiah!

You refuse to answer question because it betrays your lack of sincerity.
The greatest Deceiver has deceived you NOT to ask yourself Questions that will lead you to salvation.


Why was the Messiah born of a Virgin?
Why was the Messiah even on earth?

Two other questions you wouldn't want to know the answer!

honesttalk21:
You have been answered

I can understand that you don't have an answer in Islam. The question betray your position as unsound.
Why?
Your positions and assertions break down under scrutiny

My questions were simple to comprehend and direct:

Until you define properly Trinity according to Allah, you CANNOT present your own warped Strawman and insist on it.

1. If Christians say that Allah is the Messiah, tell me, who are they worshipping as PARTNER with Allah?

I showed you from your Qur'an that Jubril appeared to Mary as a perfect man didn't I?

2. If you agree with Allah that Jubril appeared as a Perfect man to Mary,
a. Does Jubril have a tongue?
b. Does Jubril have a kidney?
c. Does Jubril has a penis?

3. When Jubril became a Man, did he stop being an Angel?

4. Is an Angel a Man?

You wouldn't answer this because it betrays the ignorance in your doctrine.
Please just 4 Questions if you are truthful!

honesttalk21:
Muslims face the Kaaba but do they pray to the Kaaba. Do your hear the word kaaba as part of our prayers? Pretty lame.

catholics face the statue of Mary but do they pray to the statue. Do you hear the word statue as part of their prayers? Pretty lame!

honesttalk21:
So every person who performs the pilgrimage and is unable to kiss the black stone by your submissions has not performed the hajj.

So every person who goes to the catholic church and is unable to kiss the statue by your submissions has not gone to church?

honesttalk21:
A funny one you are.
Kissing or touching the Black Stone at the Ka`bah is an optional action, not obligatory or prescribed
You really are forcing this warped view of yours on the black stone.

A funny one you are.
Kissing or touching the statue of mary at the Catholic Church is an optional action, not obligatory or prescribed


Both of you are idolaters dear!

Docetism, (from Greek dokein, “to seem”), Christian heresy and one of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body during his life on earth but only an apparent or phantom one.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Docetism#:~:text=Docetism%2C%20(from%20Greek%20dokein%2C,an%20apparent%20or%20phantom%20one.

honesttalk21:
You are not mandated to comprehend the total reject of associating another in any way to the almighty Allah. Be it from trinity or totally worshipping another.

Early christian theologians speculated in many ways on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the trinity until around the end of the so-called Arian Controversy.

It was only in response to the controversy sparked by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius that a critical mass of bishops rallied around what eventually became standard language about the trinity. This controversy was complex, and has been much illuminated by recent historians

The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone.

It is not my business what you make of the trinity as it is not my belief.

Did Jibril live amongst man? Was he seen by many people simultaneously?

Do you see the internal organs of people you see in your daily life. Perhaps if there are reports that the angel or angels ate we may proceed to ponder about the presence or absence of internal organ systems. No where has it been stated that angels ate amongst man.

Understand the difference in appearing in the form of a man as opposed to becoming a man.

Illusions! Illusions! Illusions!

Are you aware of the Docetists?

My questions were simple to comprehend and direct:

Until you define properly Trinity according to Allah, you CANNOT present your own warped Strawman and insist on it.

1. If Christians say that Allah is the Messiah, tell me, who are they worshipping as PARTNER with Allah?

I showed you from your Qur'an that Jubril appeared to Mary as a perfect man didn't I?

2. If you agree with Allah that Jubril appeared as a Perfect man to Mary,
a. Does Jubril have a tongue?
b. Does Jubril have a kidney?
c. Does Jubril has a penis?

3. When Jubril became a Man, did he stop being an Angel?

4. Is an Angel a Man?

You wouldn't answer this because it betrays the ignorance in your doctrine.
Please just 4 Questions if you are truthful!

Maynman:
You believe what you lack knowledge on.

If you don't know the answer to my question, you needn't just speak for speaking sake.


Do you have ANY good reason for your LACK of Belief in a Deity?

honesttalk21:
I have answered presenting different types of examples about how others worshipped along with Allah or Almighty God if you prefer.

My answer is not restricted to God father, God Son and God spirit but all association of God with another.

Doesn't your God say he is jealous in Ex 34:14, Ex 20:4-6 and many more?

2. The angel appearing before Mary in human form was to deliver a message from Allah? Did he not appear to her in your Bible?
You fail to recognise that in these appearances he did not stay to eat with her or any other person like a human would.

I have shared the justification of actions towards Mary put forward by some of those who do. These are not my sayings but what they do and why they say they do?

Is that difficult for you to comprehend?

Until you define properly Trinity according to Allah, you CANNOT present your own warped Strawman and insist on it.

1. If Christians say that Allah is the Messiah, tell me, who are they worshipping as PARTNER with Allah?

I showed you from your Qur'an that Jubril appeared to Mary as a perfect man didn't I?

2. If you agree with Allah that Jubril appeared as a Perfect man to Mary,
a. Does Jubril have a tongue?
b. Does Jubril have a kidney?
c. Does Jubril has a penis?

3. When Jubril became a Man, did he stop being an Angel?

4. Is an Angel a Man?

You wouldn't answer this because it betrays the ignorance in your doctrine.
Please just 4 Questions if you are truthful!

honesttalk21:
Very interesting submissions Mr.
The Catholic Church, also known as Roman Catholicism, is the largest branch of Christianity with more than 1.345 billion adherents worldwide.

2. For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14).

Veneration of the Black stone?
Who prays to the black stone or praises the black stone? Is the black stone included in any prayers? The hail Mary has been since the 6th century though Christians justify it from their Bible book of Luke. Note the second part added 400 years after the start.

Is the praise of the Black stone mentioned in the Quran?
Why try to equate it to Mary after even going as far as saying Catholics are not Christians? Are you speaking on both sides?

I laugh in Chinese Language.
Mohammed kissed the black stone as an act of worship because on the day of judgement, the stone would be given a mouth to intercede for you Muslims. Is that not the same kind of Idolatry the Catholics practice?

The Catholics have the image of Mary in their place of Worship AND all you Muslims pray facing towards the back stone in the Kaaba: is this not the same idolatry.

The Catholics believe that Mary will intercede for them And you Muslims believe that the black stone will intercede for you: is this not idolatry!

Please come off it!
Idolatory is idolatry in whatever form you make it.
Why do you Muslims kiss the black stone?
Because your prophet kissed it!
Why did Mohammed kissed the black stone?

Wilgrea7:
Atheists are simply people who lack the belief in a god. That's about it.

You've said atheists are passive blind lookers, or that they rely solely on their 5 senses, which is so completely false, I'm amazed at how you arrived at such a conclusion.

While some atheists are materialists, even materialism is not relegated to just the 5 senses. So i genuinely have no idea where you're getting these notions from.

Like I said:
I wasn't defining atheism : atheists can't even define themselves successfully!

The earlier post was a pun.

You said:
"Atheists are simply people who lack the belief in a god. That's about it."

This definition is nonsensical at best.
To lack a belief is only possible if
1. The concept of "Deity" is far above your intellectual capacity to understand /comprehend
Examples
A Baby can truly be said to lack a belief.

Once a person has an intellectual capacity to hold a opinion, such CANNOT lack a belief on the subject
OR
An Animal CANNOT have a belief on the subject of a Deity.
2. You are unconscious.
3. You are inanimate or a vegetable


Holding any kind of Belief is a function of acting on available information. This information could be right or wrong but it forms the basis for a position to be taken on the basis of probability or likelihood of correctness.

Do you have ANY good reason for your LACK of Belief in a Deity?

honesttalk21:
Mary, the New Testament Ark of the Covenant

Revelation 11:19-12:1:Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary's body is in heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary is Queen of Heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Obtained from Catholic bible 101

These is according to the Catholics not according to the mainstream Christians!

Mary was an ordinary woman. She didn't even have any role during the time of the Apostles with the Believers. She joined the Believers in worship just as any other Christian

Acts 1:14:
"All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."


The veneration of Mary by the Catholics and the veneration of the Black stone by you Muslims is exactly at par!

honesttalk21:
The honoring of Mary as the Mother of God can be traced back to the Council of Ephesus in 431. By the 7th century, January 1st was observedas a celebration of the Maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the 13th century, the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ had come to replace the feast honoring Mary. However, in 1751, Pope Benedict XIV allowed Portugal’s churches to devote a feast to Mary on the first Sunday in May. This was because of a push in Portugal for an official feast day celebrating Mary’s divine maternity. Eventually, the feast was expanded to include other countries.

Unfortunately, only Catholics honour Mary as Mother of God

honesttalk21:
The stand of Islam is clearly stated in the Quran. I am looking from within your books and authentic history for proof.

The question is simple

Is this True according to Islam?

honesttalk21:
David's prophecy of 1700 years including the almighty God (Adoni) and Son of God (Adonai) sitting side by side and David reverencing them? I don't understand where this has happened though I recall reference to spirit. Have you seen a spirit before?

Where is it stated in the Quran that Jibril came down as a man? How many people saw him and if they did was he ever said to have eaten, relieved himself or slept as a human would?

[b]Qur'an 19:18
Then We sent to her Our angel, ˹Gabriel,˺ appearing before her as a man, perfectly formed.[/b]

Sahih al-Bukhari 50

Sahih al-Bukhari 4777

honesttalk21:
1. Do you deny referring to Jesus as God?
The Quran doesn't explicitly define trinity but
admonishes in 4:171 ........ and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
(Inferred that Jesus is part of the claimed trinity)

5:72 Those who say, “God is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have defied God. The Messiah himself said; “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers
5:73 Those who said: 'Allah is one of the Three', certainly they disbelieved, ........
5:116 And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ? .....
(It is countered by Catholics that they don't worship Mary but they pray to Mary and some lay the excuse that Jesus loved and honored his mother, and so they too, love and honor her) How much interaction between Jesus and Mary is documented in the Bible. Though I haven't read the Catholic bible before. if they pray to her doesn't that make her like God. They however call her mother of God but Allah begets not nor was he begotten.
19:88 They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous.

How can you tell me to do that which you don't even understand and mixup.
What is Trinity according to Islam: you are confused about it at best.

honesttalk21:
Furthermore in Jewish culture, a Davidic King would have his mother as Queen rather than his wife, because he rarely had one wife, but many wives. Sharing power with many wives would be much too difficult, but he had only one mother and she was given the title of Queen.

Almost every time a new king is introduced in 1 and 2 Kings, the king’s mother is mentioned. She was a member of the royal court, wore a crown, sat on a throne, and shared in the king’s reign (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20).
She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, it makes sense that His mother would be called Queen.

Half knowledge kills is the only response I have for you here. I wish you read all the scripture post you wrote up here and ask questions according to the instruction of Allah if you don't understand anything.
So the Jews have the post of the Queen!?
The Queen-mother act as counsellor to her son!?
A member of the royal courts!?

honesttalk21:
REV.12:1
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
And then to specifically designate who this woman is,
REV12:5
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but..

You won't know what all past and present groups of Christians has worshipped and perhaps since the early centuries the Arian Christians have been against the concept of trinity.

Who is this woman?
You think she is Mary!?

The book of Revelation is symbolic and the woman described in the passage you mentioned is interpreted as a symbol rather than a specific historical or individual figure.

The Woman is the Nation of Israel with the 12 Tribes as stars and her Son as the Messiah. The Dragon is satan.
The woman fled to the wilderness (challenging times) where she is protected in isolation by God Himself for a long time.

Rev 12:4-6:
"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days."

honesttalk21:
I have provided you with information as close as 23 years to prophet Muhammad's passing.

Can you get as close to your Jesus?

You pull a different line but if I may have you sincerely asked God this yourself and about Muhammad pbuh too?

What is the reason for the Messiah?

honesttalk21:
You and your league should be able to find something unless.....

Unless the Qur'an is False!
LOL!

Did Allah not Authenticate the Books of we Christians and Jews?

honesttalk21:
Of course we can end your statement without proof as you don't have anything real.

P.S Israelites had documented writing, kindly provide that of the bible.

The most ancient piece of writing found in Jerusalem was a tablet unearthed in the Shiloah water in the City of David, dating back to the eighth century BCE.

Unfortunately for you, if the Torah is false, then the Qur'an is false.

On what material was the Torah written on: clay or skin or papyrus ? What is the life'span of these materials?

The Qur'an is at best 1300 years old
The New testament is at least 2000 years old and the
Old Testament is at least 2800 years old.

Your best bet is first show us documents on the same kind of manuscript that is that old in the world.

I am sure you've never heard of the Dead sea scrolls. They are about 2100 years old.

honesttalk21:
Why did Uthman burnt all?

How many times must you be told that he wanted unification of recitation in one dialect of Qureysh?

Now didn't the other forms of recitation still exist beyond this? How come he didn't burn these?

If Allah recited the Qur'an in 7 different Arabic dialects, do you think Uthman have the right to eliminate six of them?
Is Uthman also a prophet of Islam?


If he didn't burn every Qur'an in existence, it could mean that
1. The Islamic Narrative is a LIE
2. Uthman failed in his bid the destroy all variant Qur'an

honesttalk21:
Why did Uthman burnt all?

Uthman felt that variations and descrepances were entering into the Qur'an as before the recitals and written Qur'ans differ. He thus hoped to correct this by making a unified and harmonised Qur'an for every Muslim.

He burnt everything that Evidences and relics of various different Qur'an are removed from Circulation

honesttalk21:
Your proof is a question?

Be real and serious!

There is no reference to this post.
I'm not sure of what you are referring to

honesttalk21:
No early writing material?
You know physically recording information began as early as 8000 BCE?

The Gilgamesh was written in cuneiform script in 2100BC, the world's oldest known form of writing yet you cannot find anything of the Bible written in the early AC? You must be a big joke.

Is it only Hafs recitation that is in use? I have told you it is the qira'a of 'Asim, used in Kufa.

Also if your claim on Hafs is that strong, how come we have?

Hadith Narrated By Hafs bin Asim
In Sahih Bukhari

Narrated: Hafs bin Asim From Sahih Bukhari
Hadith No: 205
Narrated/Authority of Hafs bin Asim
Ibn 'Umar went on a journey and said, "I accompanied the Prophet and he did not offer optional prayers during the journey, and Allah says: 'Verily! In Allah's Apostle you have a good example to follow.' " (33.21)



The ones found and dated are unreal?

You Muslims decided to use a Recitation of Hafs even when older Qur'an were available.

budaatum:
I delight in your disappointment tq. I don't expect any less considering, so you need be sorry for yourself.

Sorry!
This isn't you!

LordReed:
Well glad you dismantled your own argument.

Cry cry baby boo hoo!

Good night!

budaatum:
I don't believe I'm being pompous enough as far as lowly tq is concerned.

You have not earned the right to have any knowledge transmitted by me considering you have not done the homework you've been given in this thread nor shown the ability to converse intelligently enough to learn from me in any of our past engagements. Or would you like to claim to have clicked and read the links I've posted?

You would not stand in front of your god and demand it give you answers to your prayers so what makes you think you must demand from buda what you don't deserve to be given?

You are a big self disappointment : you used to be wiser than this before.
What happened to you?
Has someone else cloned or impasinated you!?


Sorry!

budaatum:
TenQ, before you can qualify to sit in my class and be lectured by me, you must have shown some knowledge of evolution which you clearly haven't. You haven't ever even shown you can understand my lectures, and whatever knowledge I might have been transmitting has not ever been received by you.

Please don't wait. Instead, go and learn about evolution. And I mean read a good book on the subject, then come to be lectured by buda once you have qualified to learn and evolve.

Professor Emeritus
See how "pompously" you carry yourself.

Just a small question, he has to first throw his baba Riga!


You tell me how engineering knowledge is transmitted through evolution. QED!

KnownUnknown:
Exactly. That’s why your views are nonsensical and antithetical to reality.

LOL!
It's just a claim you've made : and it is very empty!

honesttalk21:
I guess we'll continue our discussions on another day.

No problem sir.

Have a good night rest

honesttalk21:
As written in
THE GENEALOGY OF THE VIRGIN MARY[b]
IN SINAI SYR. 16
Jotham begot Zadoq, and Zadoq begot Mary by his wife Dina, who is the sister of Elisabeth, the wife of Zechariah. For this reason it is written that the Angel said to Mary, «Behold, Elisabeth your relative has conceived» (Lk 1:36) — that is, the sister of your mother.

Is this True according to Islam?

honesttalk21:
Interesting standards won't you say? Isn't David allegedly giving prophesy about Jesus more likely after judgement in paradise. The verses from 5:116 are a discussion on judgement day. That will be about the trinitarian belief of Christians, reverrence of Mary by the Catholics or is it Jews. You must have come across Arianism in Christianity.

Do you think all the Sabians equally worshipped the stars?

I don't know in full detail where the almighty finds me wanting let alone another person.
Allah will judge by himself and no one will on his behalf on judgement day and he has the final say on who enters paradise. Who can challenge him if he pardons or punishes anyone?

David said the prophecy of the Messiah 1700 years before Jesus. He was speaking of the future and not the past, hence a prophecy.


The problem is that both the author of the Qur'an and Mohammed are confused about the Trinity.

When Jubril became a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
Is an Angel a man?

1. The Qur'an say that we Christians say that Allah is the Messiah : is this true or false?
If Alkah is the Messiah, who then are the Trinity according to the Qur'an?

2. Again, Allah says he asked Jesus if he told his people to make Himself, His Mother as partner with Allah?

Which of these is the doctrine of Trinity?

Is the Quran not confused?

honesttalk21:
No. Is it not essentially stating that everyone will be judged. How else do you expect the all Just to give justice?

One verse says everyone will be judged
The other verse say Jews, Christians and Sabians will enter Paradise.

It didn't say
Some of the Jews or
Some of the Christians or
Some of the Sabians

Allah is precise in speech isn't he?

If Allah is precise, then it is a contradiction.

honesttalk21:
Genealogy is given by the paternal side however the mother of John the Baptist is known as Elizabeth, Bethsheba the mother of Solomon, Hannah the mother of Samuel, Jochebed the Mother of Moses, is it not strange that the name of an important figure like Mary wouldn't be mentioned even if lineage is giving by name of the father.

I found on gotquestions that The Bible does not mention King David’s mother by name but from Jewish legend she is named as Nitzevet, but there is no biblical confirmation of that name. Now it is obviously clear where our disagreement seems to stem from.
The book is an apocryphal Gospel of James which states that Mary was the daughter of Joachim and Anne. Before Mary's conception, Anne had been barren and was far advanced in years.

Definitely we were speaking of separate Annes. The parents of Mary are even reverred as being Saints Ann and Joachim.

Are we to call the Apocryphal the equivalents of hadith in Christianity or because there have been 7 canonifications of the Bible this has been prevented?

Are you saying that I am free to use books by the heretical Ahmadiya or the Shia Muslims for you and you will accept that it represents Islam?

Do you subscribe to the books and doctrines of the Ismailis or the Nusayris (Alawites) or the Murji'ites ?

If you don't, why do you expect me to adopt your apocryphal Gospel of James?

If the parents of Mary were referred to as saints in the book, it is a glaring proof that they were very recent book far away from the time of the apostles. Why?
Mary was just an ordinary disciple and very ordinary even in Jewish standard of those days. The book was trying hard to venerate Mary.

honesttalk21:
I replied with emboldened with regards to your point 2. Is the book of Ezekiel 45 wrong?

3:35. (Remember) when the wife of `Imran said: “O my Lord! I have vowed to You what is in my womb to be dedicated for Your services, so accept this from me. Verily, You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knowing.
36. Then when she gave birth to her, she said: “O my Lord! I have given birth to a female [/b]child, ـ and Allah knew better what she bore, ـ “[b]And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam, and I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from Shaytan, the outcast

This is no evidence my dear.

This was written 700 years after the event in Question had been finalised. How can it be called evidence?

Can you take what I write against Islam and Mohammed as EVIDENCE?
I can only support my writings with appropriate evidence not the other way round