honesttalk21: Sure Trinity will be a subject of debate as it is not specifically mentioned in your Bible.
Could it be I missed the verse that states and defines it? At the very least or best it is inferred which doesn't ascertain it.
God is specifically mentioned stating his actions or character but the word trinity is no where written. Show me where I missed it please.
[qhuote author=TenQ post=125120272] Why has Trinity being a subject of debate?
Because it is UNNATURAL to a very large extent. But God is also not Natural.
This is exactly the reason you've not been able to answer on Trinity or Duality in the Qur'an.
My questions were simple to comprehend and direct: 1. If Christians say that Allah is the Messiah, tell me, who are they worshipping as PARTNER with Allah?
2. If you agree with Allah that Jubril appeared as a Perfect man to Mary, a. Does Jubril have a tongue? b. Does Jubril have a kidney? c. Does Jubril has a penis?
3. When Jubril became a Man, did he stop being an Angel?
4. Is an Angel a Man?
You wouldn't answer this because it betrays the ignorance in your doctrine. Please just 4 Questions if you are truthful!
I was checking through the Quran and i find out that there is zero mention of TAOHEED in the Quran.
LordReed: Neither. Increasingly the concept of what a god is has become incoherent and ambiguous to my understanding. Because of this unravelling, I can no longer give credence to any other question based on it while the concept of what a god is remains unresolved.
It is actually a dodge as I am not asking you about the Christian God or any particular God except that God as the title of the sole Creator of the Universe.
You don't have to agree with the concept of God (this is not the purpose of the question)
1. You understand the concept of God as the Creator of everything
MrPRevailer: TenQ Do you know Christian Prince on YouTube? He has made a show of many Muslims, imams and sheikhs. Thousands of Muslims gave left Islam because of him.
Thank God for Christian Prince. The fact that he's an Arab and he knows and understands Islam so well, Muslim scholars have been brought to shame before him. People like Zakir Naik avoids him like plague. Of course, Muslims leave Islam for Christ almost daily on his program.
Islam is a religion that thrives in deception and lies to trap people into darkness. I think Christians must learn Islam to be able to preach to Muslims.
LordReed: I said I don't have sufficient knowledge but you say I do so show me how I have sufficient knowledge to reject the existence of a god.
God is a title or the label for a category and as far as I am aware there is no sufficient knowledge to capitalise that title or label for any being. If you see that as derogatory then that is your own bias not mine.
Let me test your sincerity Which of these do you align with 1. You understand the concept of God as the Creator of everything 2. You have studied to some extent arguments for and against this concept of God 3. You have concluded from your studies that the evidence FOR God is not convincing enough
LordReed: How do I have enough knowledge to reject the idea of the existence of a god?
You already have enough knowledge to reject the idea of the existence of God: therefore , it is a question you need to ask yourself and not me how you came to such a conclusion.
This is why you are ALWAYS predictably against the idea of having a God that you can't help to "derogatively" type "god" instead of "God" !
honesttalk21: How Can you burn sound or a recitation? Were memories also burned? These arguments should be honestly considered. And on your second question which seems to agree that the other Mushafs are consistent in meaning does it then imply the crucial points of your argument lie in the disagreements on the son status and crucifixion of Jesus? I see these as the more probable core of disagreements.
Uthman's success or failure is most valuable to your bid to discredit the Quran.
I said: If Allah recited the Qur'an in 7 different Arabic dialects, do you think Uthman have the right to eliminate six of them? Is Uthman also a prophet of Islam?
AND If he didn't burn every Qur'an in existence, it could mean that 1. The Islamic Narrative is a LIE 2. Uthman failed in his bid the destroy all variant Qur'an
These Recitations were written down on paper were they not?
What then the Uthman burn?.
Did he not replace all he burnt with only one dialect (the Quraish dialect)?
We should have Seven different Qur'an in Seven Dialects of Arabic: where are they?
honesttalk21: 1. Why? Equivalents should be compared though Jesus didn't name a religion but says he came to fulfil the law according to Moses. I may be wrong to infer Islam replacing Christianity. What was the way of life of Abraham?
Is Jesus a replacement for Moses? Allah sends guidance to mankind since the decent of Adam pbuh from the garden. Q2:38 ...... فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّى هُدًۭى فَمَن تَبِعَ هُدَاىَ فَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ So if guidance comes to you from me, then whoever follows my guidance, there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.
Yes Muhammad preaches that Jesus (pbut) is a prophet. He didn't say of himself that he was more than a Prophet or did he? إِنَّمَا ٱلۡمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُۥٓ أَلۡقَىٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ وَرُوحٞ مِّنۡهُ ۖ فَئَامِنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ ۖ The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit from Him, so believe in Him. Allah and His Messengers بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَإِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decides to create something, He merely says, “Be!” and It becomes what He willed
2. No! That premise is incorrect. I shared what research has revealed on the findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Allah makes no mention of it in what he revealed through the last prophet pbuh
3. As always you bring in other arguments to your discussion. Enumerate and elucidate how Islam is the religion of the Antichrist.
Why do you feel one should replace the other?
If the Bible is wrong, Allah is False. Qur'an 2:41 And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me.
Qur'an 2:89 And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
Qur'an 2:91 And when they were told, 'Believe in that God has sent down,' they said, 'We believe in what was sent down on us'; and they disbelieve in what is beyond that, yet it is the truth confirming what IS with them. Say: 'Why then were you slaying the Prophets of God in former time, if you were believers?'
Qur'an 3:81 And when God took compact with the Prophets: 'That I have given you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what IS with you -- you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?' He said. 'And do you take My load on you on that condition?' They said, 'We do agree.' God said, 'Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.'
Qur'an 4:47 You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what IS with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God's command is done.
Are These scripture TRUE or FALSE? If Allah confirms what is with us and what is with us is False, then Allah is either a Liar or is IGNORANT.
ANTICHRIST does not mean Enemy of Christ. It means a REPLACEMENT or INSTEAD of Christ.
Jesus says: John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me."
Is this scripture TRUE?
Mohammed says NO! 1. God is not the Father 2. Jesus is NOT the Son 3. Jesus is NOT the way to the Father 4. An alternative way to paradise is following him (Mohammed)
If Islam is not the Religion of the Antichrist, what is it?
LordReed: So what problem do you have with the statement "I lack belief in a god because I do not have sufficient knowledge to form such a belief"?
You have enough knowledge to reject the idea of the existence of a God while taking the stance of insufficient evidence as the primary excuse.
Let me give you an example: Tinubu is being encouraged by the West and primarily France to invade Niger Republic and Repace the coup plotters. They give motivating reasons why Nigeria should do so: 1. Nigeria is far more richer than Niger republic 2. Nigeria has a far much bigger Army 3. Nigerian Army is better trained and highly professional unlike the Nigerien Army. 4. France will support Nigeria with arms and ammunition for the exercise President Tinubu even with these looked at Russia-Ukraine war and decides that these reasons are NOT overwhelming enough for Nigeria to take the risk
Thus, Tinubu claims (Just like you) "I lack belief in INVADING Niger Republic because I do not have sufficient knowledge to form such a belief"
Tell me, is Tinubu's decision from a Positive BELIEF or from a Negative BELIEF or from Lack of BELIEF ?
Workch: I'm an agnostic, I am seeking knowledge and I usually have debates with atheists and theists alike. Today, I want to engage theists who think that the universe cannot pop out of nothing, if you think it cannot then you need some basic lectures in quantum physics. ... So yes, there's a world that doesn't make sense to our current understanding, we still do not know a lot about it. In this world, common basic laws like casualty and conservation of energy breaks down hence the universe creating itself is not an impossibility. We have seen something coming out of nothing in the quantum world. Based on this, I advice everyone to wait and not jump into any definite conclusion yet. We still do not know a lot.
LordReed A001 Budatuum
Let us make things very simple by assuming that 1. Quantum fluctuations can make particle pop out of nothing (even if it is briefly) 2. The Law of conservation of Energy is in effect. 3. We assume that the Quantum fluctuation is fundamentally based on equal number of matter and antimatter pairs. 4. Quantum fluctuations are completely elastic (100% lossless)
Then it would be impossible to have matter in bulk self existing as there should be equal quantity of antimatter in existence in space.
Is this a logical deduction?
It will take an insanely amount of energy from outside to separate matter and antimatter far from each other to prevent a recombination. This should violate conservation of energy
LordReed: So you agree that my position of perfect ignorance contains no belief?
Yes, I do!
If you don't know a hoot about Arsenal Nor anything about the UEFA or English Premiership Cups and someone asks you the question: LordReed, do you BELIEVE Arsenal will win both the UEFA and English Premiership Cups?
Your answer would Be: I DON'T KNOW as I LACK the information to take any position of beliefs (positive or negative) on Arsenal, UEFA cup or Premiership Cup!
But once you say I don't know BUT Arsenal cannot Win, you've already taken a position of knowledge and therefore you do NOT Lack a Belief!
LegalWolf: At least, we all agree that the 103 persons where from different places. The issue is whether a lot of people were picked from LTG. In my opinon, the LASG has a point in that very few people till date has come to claim that they lost people at the toll gate. LASG set up a commission of enquiry and few people showed up.
In any event, their reaction has been better than ANSG response for Awkuzu SARS massacre.. or hasn't it?
Hello LegalWolf, Just checking up on you. It's been some long time. How is work?
honesttalk21: Fortunately copies of the different styles are available and archaeological discoveries are consistent in meaning with the Mushafs presently used. This is true despite the evolution in writing alphabets etc.
You don't understand the gravity of the problem
If Allah recited the Qur'an in 7 different Arabic dialects, do you think Uthman have the right to eliminate six of them? Is Uthman also a prophet of Islam?
AND If he didn't burn every Qur'an in existence, it could mean that 1. The Islamic Narrative is a LIE 2. Uthman failed in his bid the destroy all variant Qur'an
honesttalk21: Historical records show that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without.
Christ Himself warned His followers: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5).
You can read many similar warnings in other passages (such as Matthew 24:11; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 2:18-26; 1 John 4:1-3).
One of the main concerns about the Dead Sea Scolls raised by scholars is the issue of forgery, as some experts believe that modern individuals may have created or altered some of the scrolls to deceive researchers and collectors.
This skepticism has prompted scientists to closely examine the material composition, writing styles, and paleographic features of the scrolls to determine their authenticity, leading to a complex and ongoing debate.
One of the widely accepted outcomes of more than seven decades of Dead Sea Scrolls research is that the world of Qumran is one that was formative to scripture yet from a time before the media forms, cultural catalysts, and confessional efforts that finalized the canons of Judaism and Christianity.
The challenge now is discerning how to move beyond the truism that “the Bible did not yet exist” toward models for mapping the development of emerging traditions regardless of their place within or outside of later biblical collections.
It doesn't dawn on you that 1. Islam is a replacement of Jesus with Mohammed!? Is this not what Jesus was teaching?
Did Mohammed not preach saying Jesus was a prophet?
2. If the Dead sea scroll is a forgery, then Islam is based on forgery. As Allah subscribed to the same book.
Either way, Islam is the Religion of the Antichrist (Replacement for Christ)
honesttalk21: The Trinity has been a subject of theological debate in the Christian faith. The Council of Nicaea in 325 AD affirmed the doctrine of three distinct persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - who are co-equal and co-eternal. The Cappadocian Fathers in the 4th century further clarified the relationship between the three persons[b][/b].
In modern times, ecumenical efforts have been made to create an agreed definition of the Trinity. The World Council of Churches' Faith and Order Commission published a document titled "The Trinity and the Christian Life" in 1986. I surely wouldn't know the differences in the concepts over 2000 years in the Christian doctrine.
This all is a form of associating or worshipping others alongside Allah
Why has Trinity being a subject of debate?
Because it is UNNATURAL to a very large extent. But God is also not Natural.
This is exactly the reason you've not been able to answer on Trinity or Duality in the Qur'an.
My questions were simple to comprehend and direct: 1. If Christians say that Allah is the Messiah, tell me, who are they worshipping as PARTNER with Allah?
2. If you agree with Allah that Jubril appeared as a Perfect man to Mary, a. Does Jubril have a tongue? b. Does Jubril have a kidney? c. Does Jubril has a penis?
3. When Jubril became a Man, did he stop being an Angel?
4. Is an Angel a Man?
You wouldn't answer this because it betrays the ignorance in your doctrine. Please just 4 Questions if you are truthful!
honesttalk21: Oh! you accept this for sake of proving a point?
Are you aware that: Docetism was unequivocally rejected at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and is regarded as heretical by the following: ●Catholic Church ●Eastern Orthodox Church, ●Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, ●Armenian Apostolic Church, ●Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and many Protestant denominations that accept and hold to the statements of these early church councils, such as Reformed Baptists, Reformed Christians, and all Trinitarian Christians.
So how then does it fit and then not fit with the Trinitarian church?
Trinitarian belief, rooted in Christian theology, posits the existence of a triune Godhead comprising the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, docetism is said to be a heretical belief that Jesus Christ only appeared to be human, denying his full humanity. Trinitarian belief vehemently disagrees with docetism on several grounds, primarily its rejection of the Incarnation and its implications, the undermining of Jesus’ redemptive work, and its distortion of the profound relationship between God and humanity
Do you accept that ISIS represent Islam? Is it right for me to force the position of ISIS on you honesttalk21?
Turn the table around!
When Jesus was on earth, did He live as a spirit amongst men or as human amongst men?
LordReed: You said once I have taken a position then I have sufficient knowledge did you not?
If you have taken your decision and position based on your knowledge of the subject then you cannot lack a belief on the subject. You can only have 1. A Positive Affirming Belief OR 2. A Negative Rejecting Belief
budaatum: I do lack a belief on the subject of deities because I have sufficient knowledge on the subject of deities to know instead of ignorantly believe.
You may have a belief that ₦10 is in your pocket. But after you put your hand in your pocket and check to see if there is ₦10 in you pocket, you would have no reason to believe if you have ₦10 in you pocket or not because you would know.
Go read Daniel 14. The king believed until Daniel educated him.
Yes it is.
No it is not true. I do not have any beliefs whatsoever about deities therefore I lack belief about deities.
I have subjected deities to sufficient scrutiny so that I may know about deities instead of stupidly merely having beliefs due to laziness to seek knowledge.
The English is simple You Buda on the other hand has an intellectual capacity to hold an opinion on Deities therefore you CANNOT lack a belief on the subject of Deities. Your Answer : "I have subjected deities to sufficient scrutiny so that I may know about deities instead of stupidly merely having beliefs due to laziness to seek knowledge"
Therefore you have an Educated OPINION on the subject of Deities.
You then do not Lack a Belief.
1. You don't Know Everything with certainty of Deities 2. Your position about Deities is not of positive Belief based on your knowledge 3. Your position is not of Lacking a belief about deities 4. Your position about Deities is of Negative Belief based on your knowledge
Buda Can one take a position of Belief if one already has a perfect knowledge?
budaatum: This is not true. Many times do people take positions to start businesses on what they assume is sufficient knowledge only to find out they had insufficient knowledge when they failed. Naijabet players experience it too when their heavily invested in sufficient knowledge surebet flops.
People take positions on ignorance, as in no knowledge at all, all the time, not to talk of insufficient knowledge due to lazy research.
Yes! Incomplete knowledge can lead to error of judgement. Even the BetNiger fool took a decision to play because he was told that he could be a millionaire overnight by betting three sure odds (not five, not six but three sure odds). Sometime, the knowledge on which a decision is made is even quite WRONG!
Example: Putin Beleived His War with Ukraine would be a walkover Putin took to going to war with Ukraine based on the fact that Militarily, Russia was 10 times stronger and bigger and better than Ukraine. Every analysis he did showed that the Invasion should be over in 3 days to a week.
Putin did NOT factor in 1. The Resolve of Ukrainians to be free 2. The Stubborn Comedian President Zelensky who didnt flee in fear 3. The Involvement of NATO
Do you think Putin's decision to go to War with Ukraine was IRRATIONAL?
budaatum: The examples you listed are not knowledge but things you have chosen to believe "based on your limited knowledge", which is due to your laziness to go seek more knowledge to reduce your limitations. And the fact that you are positive about your ignorance just makes it much worse, because you will positively be arguing that your limited knowledge is knowledge and you will refuse to learn.
Even though those are not my personal opinion but examples
*I believe that Nigeria would still be great May be because, our Judiciary is getting it right or we have a good president or INEC is getting better
*I belief that Arsenal will win both the UEFA and English Premiership Cups May be because, they now have the best coach in the world or three of the world's best players were simultaneously signed on
Every choice in believe has a BASIS for the Choice
budaatum: First, I do not appreciate your wuruwuru "truly". You put it there because you struggled.
Pretty early in a baby's arrival on earth and its engagement with the new environment it finds itself in, a certain shift from unconsciousness to consciousness occurs and the baby has to start shifting through the good and bad information it receives, and forms beliefs on most because it hasn't the intellectual capacity to know.
Children do it too. They believe because they do not yet know. But as they grow and accumulate more information and learn to separate the right from wrong, they usually evolve understanding and know.
Babies lack the intellectual capacity to have or not have a Believe in any Deity. Hence they can be said to lack a belief in Deities.
budaatum: Animals have not, to the best of my knowledge, shown the intellectual capacity to have formed a "subject of a deity" to believe in. Animals may respond to thunder and lightening in the same deific way that early humans who did deify things did, but no evidence of animals worshipping deities have come to my attention.
Animals lack the capacity to comprehend the abstract knowledge of Deity. Thus Animals truly Lack a belief I. DEITIES
budaatum: Depends on intellectual utilization. A person may have utilized their intellectual capacity to hold an opinion which is a belief. Another may have utilized their intellectual capacity only enough to lack belief. While another person may have utilized their intellectual capacity to hold a opinion which is based on actual knowledge. Capacity, does after all not mean it was used, as we see with the lazy.
Both Babies and Animals lack the intellectual capacity to hold a opinion on Deities , thus they LACK a belief on the subject
You Buda on the other hand has an intellectual capacity to hold an opinion on Deities therefore you CANNOT lack a belief on the subject of Deities.
Is it untrue that you have the intellectual capacity to hold a position on Deities AND you have taken your own position on it?
If it is true, you do not LACK a belief about deities!
budaatum: I don't believe the earth is flat because I know the earth is not flat.
LordReed: I lack the belief that Arsenal will win both the UEFA and English Premiership Cups because I do not have sufficient knowledge to form such a belief.
You have tried. At least better than Buda and Mainman.
There exist just FOUR Possible positions anyone can take 1. Position of Perfect Knowing Examples : *I know that 2+16=18 *I know that Bola Ahmed Tinubu is the President of Nigeria This is a position of certainty. You don't even need to believe because you know
2. Position of Positive Imperfect Knowledge Examples : *I believe that Nigeria would still be great *I belief that Arsenal will win both the UEFA and English Premiership Cups *I believe in one Deity This position of belief is positive because you have reasons based on your limited knowledge to take such an optimistic position
3. Position of Negative Imperfect Knowledge Examples : *I do NOT believe that the Nigerian Judiciary is impartial *I do NOT believe that Arsenal will win both the UEFA and English Premiership Cups *I do not believe in ANY Deity
This position of belief is negative because you have reasons based on your limited knowledge to take such a negative optimistic position
4. Position of Ignorance and lack of Knowledge Examples : *I lack a belief that the planet Jumongo's core contain molten iron *I lack a belief that the square root of 865,234,638,124,879,007 gives the surface area of Pluto in meter square.
The position of ignorance does not take any position positive or negative. He just doesn't have enough knowledge or information to believe or disbelieve a position. This one is a position of PERFECT AGNOSTICISM!
Like , With respect to Religion or Deities, *A Baby is a perfect Agnostics *A dog is a Perfect Agnostics With respect to Science The uneducated Farmer in the village is perfectly agnostic to believing that the Equation E=mc^2 is a True statement.
The problem with even those who call themselves Agnostics is that they have taken a NON-NEUTRAL position BY taking a position of knowledge.
You said : I lack the belief that Arsenal will win both the UEFA and English Premiership Cups because I do not have sufficient knowledge to form such a belief. If this was true, then you cannot argue FOR or AGAINST the fact that Arsenal will win both the UEFA and English Premiership Cups
Once you take ANY position, it means you actually have sufficient knowledge to take take such position.
budaatum: That's not about it! Sorry. Though I understand it's simplification for TenQ.
Some atheists lack the ability to believe, and don't have beliefs because they can do the work to ensure they know that there are and have never been gods that haven't been created by we humans.
See teacher Mayn teach it better.
1. Is it true that A Baby can truly be said to lack a belief. WHY or WHY NOT? 2. Is it true that An Animal CANNOT have a belief on the subject of a Deity. WHY or WHY NOT? 3. Is it true that Once a person has an intellectual capacity to hold a opinion, such CANNOT lack a belief on the subject WHY or WHY NOT? 4. Apart from the subject of Deity or God/gods, give me an example of something else you lack a belief in and state WHY you lack a belief? in such?
Maynman: I asked that question in relation to the word atheism. You are making alot of errors on it. Whatever you theists define theism is, a-theism is opposite of that.
Why don't you copy the context content before the question!
Even if i made errors, the question isnt the error: is it?