₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
How is their fertility rate "impossibly" large when it is happening day in day out?

What is it that I despise that has kept them alive?

Have they gone out of extinction?

Are they on danger list?

Were they meant to dominate the earth?

If the answer os No!, how is it your problem is a programmer wrote a computer code that self destructs after it has perfomed it's primary function.


Are you aware that in computer programming, we write some programs that self destructs after it has executed it's task?

Is this stupidity or wisdom in programming ?

Dtruthspeaker:
See how they are all complaining because they can never ever do it.

They don't even grapes the complexity of the engineering feat these Ants just performed.

If humans can fail this exam, I am amazed that ordinary Ants can succeed in it.

Unfortunately for the brute mule, they are willing to say everything as long as it doesn't give glory to God the Chief Designer and Maker.

budaatum:
The below shows how difficult. Nay. Outright impossible it is for you to see how lame your reasoning is. Instead of studying the evolution of the ant to see how it progressed to what you see, you fill the gap with some diviner you don't see imposing a program you see not.

Are you saying that evolution gave the Ant the knowledge of Engineering and wisdom of operation.

Their lifespan is in weeks at best.
They can't talk


How did evolution give them knowledge?

KnownUnknown:
I saw this documentary and I thought to myself, the Almighty Ant made the ant in his own image and made them the largest civilization on earth.
Such tiny creatures but so much organization, wisdom, and perseverance!! Many adult educated polytheists will find this simple task impossible!!

My Ant is amazing and it blows away my little sense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rERHPiYxc64&pp=ygUEQW50cw%3D%3D

That's exactly how you think bro: that nature made everything that is natural!
LOL!

Forget theology now and just focus on this Ants. How did they acquire such a wisdom that many humans will fail in achieving.

How did the Ants execute carrying a humongously mightyly big carcass upsidedown over the lip of the flower pot.



Could their be a better way of doing this task?

LordReed:
The Great Ant sacrificed her only begotten drone to save all of antkind. Only the Holy Ant Spirit can make you understand.

It doesn't dawn on you that their fertility rate is impossibly large that even that which you despise has kept them alive till today.

LordReed:
LoLz! Explain how carrying a weight without machines is "engineering wisdom".

Let me oblige you.


1. The ants found a dead wall gecko the size of each ant relative to the wall gecko is at least 1:1000
2. The Ants had their destination as INSIDE the flowerpot
3. Lifting the Gecko up the wall of the flower pot was a tall order which required a lot of coordination, cooperation, dedication and strength.
4. Unfortunately, the pot had a rim that curved out and down through which they need to navigate UPSIDE-DOWN with the heavy load (which would have been an impossibility)
5. They figured out somehow under the rim to carry ONLY the lighter tail first under the flower pot rim to the top.
6. When those assigned to the task succeeded, the other Ants let go of the main body of the Gecko
7. The moment of truth came as the main gecko body swung Freely by its tail
8. The ants below the rim climbed up the rim to assist their fellow ants holding the tail to pull up the gecko carcass

For creatures who cannot speak to organise each other, who have a short life span and did not therefore go to school. This is a masterpiece of wisdom in operation.

Just imagine that the ants are human being and without tools required to do exactly the same thing: you will by no means applaud these ants and the One who designed and programmed them so!

satmaniac:
You are not getting my point. What I meant by "As most of the Hadith in the earliest collections stopped at the companions or contain the opinions of the companions on certain issues. But in the later collections all of a sudden the words were said to have come from the prophet" is in the earliest collections where you have an hadith that reported that a certain companion X said that ABC is 123. The same Hadith will be reported in the later collections like this a certain companion X said that he heard his father said that the prophet said that ABC is 123. How did the later collector of Hadith arrived at inserting the prophet name where the earliest collector didn't? This is the question nobody is asking. This is the question they the user of such sources don't want being asked. Obviously someone had to add the name of the prophet to give whatever concoctions he is selling some form of authority. This is what they called Hadith. This is what they call science. From which the tafsir, Fiqh and all other sources were derived. So this is what my reply is all about.

You will agree with me that far much more knowledgeable Muslim scholars have noticed this problem that not all hadiths can be trusted, therefore they made stringent rules with respect to trusted chains of narrators to grade every hadiths as
Sahih
Hassan
Daif
Mawdu

Muslim Clerics say that the fact that a Hadith is graded Daif doesn't mean it is false. It just mean that the chain of narration isn't strong.

But I think your argument should be applicable to the Qur'an too. Why should we trust the RECITATION of Hafs when we have written Qur'an dating far back in time.

Secondly, if the hadiths should all be discarded because of Trust issues, it proves that Muslims generally are UNTRUSTWORTHY bunch of LIARS!
If Muslims can lie this much, how can we trust their Qur'an?

honesttalk21:
1. As to how long a Muslim will spend or take to pass by hell I can't say I know though it more likely wouldn't be the same for everyone. Furthermore how do you come up with the notion of Muslims being replaced by Christians in hell?

Interestingly looking at another translation stating
And there is not one of you but he will pass it on. Your Lord has a certainty.
Perhaps there's a need to review the translations in more detail.

There are translations that attempt to mistranslate the meaning of the Arabic of the Qur'an


Qur'an 19:71
"وَمَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ إِلَّا سَيَمُرُّهَا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ يَسِيرٌ"
Verse 72 betray any counter argument

Quran 19:72 -
Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees."

1. The word THEN (means "After that.." ).
Do you think it means After Muslims have passed over hell or passed by hell? Or after Muslims are in Hell


2. If Muslims will pass over the fire, why does verse 72 say:
Then we will save those who fear Allah!
Allah will Save them from what?

3. Don't you think that anyone who has passed over hell or passed by hell is ALREADY saved and doesn't need further saving?

4. Leaving the Unbelievers AFTER Allah has removed you Muslims is the last straw that nails this.


Muslims will ALL without exception enter the Fire of Hell at least for a Duration.
What if this was A GRAND deception and the Duration become ETERNITY!

budaatum:
Explains why I can't get my head around it I guess.

This is the reason I say that many of you educated atheists would fail to succeed in this simple but intellectually challenging task.

You just showed me that you are probably one of those I refer to.
Watch it again from 1:45 minutes and decide how you would solve the same problem.

LordReed:
How does comparing the capacity for weight lifting to mental acuity make sense?

Of course, you won't see the complexity and the engineering wisdom to carry such a weight of carcass over the lip of the flower pot.

This is the reason I say that many of you educated atheists would fail to succeed in this simple but intellectually challenging task.

Workch:
What a very poor way to reason

Says professor Workch!

Tell me:
You go to Mars and find something that looks and functions like a computer on the planet. What would be the probability that it evolved from the natural elements on Mars?
Would you assume it was placed on Mars by extraterrestrials to the planet ?

honesttalk21:
On being the daughter of Imran I believe we have had a discussion on this on one of your other threads where you challenged me to present another person addressed by the name of his ancestor.
It is interesting to note where you too applied this principle in addressing Jesus as a son of King David.

Be that as it may does the Bible refer to the parents of Mary explicitly? I seem to be jumbling the Heli, Nathan connection but did I to mention her mother?

The Messiah is referred to as the Son of David because he is a direct Descendant of David.

Mat 22:42-45:
"Saying, What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him, The son of David. He said to them, How then does David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?"

Unfortunately, Mary is from the Tribe of Judah which is the Tribe of David.
Imran, Moses, Aaron are from the tribe of Levi which has disappeared from existence because of their conquest by the Assyrians.

Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE that Mary be remotely the Daughter of Imran.

Hence, you need to explain how the obvious history of Mary became complicated in the Qur'an except the writer wasn't familiar with history.

honesttalk21:
1. As to how long a Muslim will spend or take to pass by hell I can't say I know though it more likely wouldn't be the same for everyone. Furthermore how do you come up with the notion of Muslims being replaced by Christians in hell?

My concern is that Jesus did not give an impression that the punishment of hell is temporary.
What if your entering hell is indefinite?


Here is your hadith that says Christians and Jews would be made a ransome for you Muslims in hell.

Riyad as-Salihin 432
Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah said, "On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will deliver to every Muslim, a Jew or a Christian and say: This is your ransom from Hell-fire."'
Another narration is: Messenger of Allah said, "There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with sins as heavy as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them".



Would you agree that only people who are not currently in hell can be used as a ransome for another person!?

honesttalk21:
Good day. Trust you had a good rest.
Let's start with Joida. In the book of Nehemiah 12:10 we read Joshua was the father of Joiakim, Joiakim the father of Eliashib, Eliashib the father of Joiada,
11 Joiada the father of Jonathan, and Jonathan the father of Jaddua.

Then a look into the story of Joachim, his wife Anne (or Anna), and the miraculous birth of their child Mary, the mother of Jesus, was told for the first time in the 2nd-century apocryphal infancy-gospel the Gospel of James

I will accept the stories are not piecing together simply.

Of course the story cannot piece together because Joachim was the great grandson of David and he was the king of Judah AND there was at least 1200 years between Joachim and Mary.

honesttalk21:
Of course I know Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist. She is the wife of Zakaria.
Zakaria is an uncle to Mary.

He is mentioned in the Quran as the father of John the Baptist and the one to whom Mary was given to care for in infancy.

3:37) Thereupon her Lord graciously accepted Mary and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth and placed her in the care of Zechariah. Whenever Zakariya visited her in the sanctuary, he found her provided with food. He asked her: 'O Mary, how did this come to you?' She said: 'It is from Allah. Allah provides sustenance to whom He wills beyond all reckoning.'
(3:38) Then Zakarya prayed to his Lord: 'O Lord! Grant me from Yourself out of Your grace the gift of a goodly offspring, for indeed You alone heed all Prayers.
(3:39) As he stood praying in the sanctuary, the angels called out to him: 'Allah gives you good tidings of John (Yahya),who shall confirm a command of Allah , shall be outstanding among men, utterly chaste, and a Prophet from among the righteous.'

Unfortunately, this still doesn't explain how Mary is the sister of Aaron and the Daughter of Imran. Do you think Christians mixed up their history?

The person who wrote this in the Qur'an is not knowledgeable about the history of Mary.

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
........

4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)

It appears you stopped reading at 19:71 and didn't read 19:72
Then We will deliver those who were devout, leaving the wrongdoers there on their knees.

....

I read everything that was why I noted that but later removed
1. How long do you think Muslims will spend in Hell before they are replaced with Christians? Does it even make sense?

2. Is there any other prophet of God who preached this kind of doctrine?

Be warned :
Once a person enters Hell, there is no coming out o!

Jesus said, we should do everything NOT to enter Hell because there is no coming out of it o!

Mat 5:29:
"And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell."

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
.......

3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
Muhammad pbuh is not making claims of the unknown or equating himself to the king, master of the day of Judgement.
The furqan is replete with verses describing paradise and stating it as a reward for the pious.
The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord.Q 47:15.
.........

I think this is very clear in the Qur'an
Qur'an 46:9
Say, “I am not the first messenger ever sent, nor do I know what will happen to me or you. I only follow what is revealed to me. And I am only sent with a clear warning.”

Is this Qur'an true or is it a contradiction?


If Mohammed doesn't know what Allah will do with him, how can he be said to have a guarantee of paradise?

He says to you Muslims that he is just a warner to you!

Compare this with the Messiah who says :

John 14:6:
"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me."

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
......
2. The seeming prophethood of Dhulqarnayn
There are diverse views about his prophethood however my takeaway from his story is the mercy shown to mankind through him in keeping Yajuj and Majuj away for a while.
They said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, indeed Gog and Magog are [great] corrupters in the land. So may we assign for you an expenditure that you might make between us and them a barrier?" (18 : 94)

Looking further in [21:96-97] Until, when Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj are let loose, and they swiftly swarm from every mound. and the time for the fulfilment of the true promise of Allah draws near,whereupon the eyes of those who disbelieved will stare in fear, and they will say: "Woe to us, we were indeed heedless of this; nay, we were wrongdoers.

His being a prophet or not is not as important beyond knowing there was one so powerful he was reverred and could create such barriers even if I haven't seen such a barrier.

There are so many problems with this as
1. Dhul-Qarnayn is known in History to be a confirmed homosexual: how can he then be a prophet?

2. Who is Gog and Magog in the Qur'an?
We can tell you who they are from the Bible.

3. Where is the Wall of God and Magog built by Dhul-Qarnayn? It doesn't exist.

4. The story of Dhul-Qarnayn marching to the ends of the earth is mere fable: except you can prove it.

5. If Allah claimed that Dhul-Qarnayn met a people by the murky waters where the sun set, doesn't this contradict elementary knowledge of Geography?


This serious mixup prove that the Qur'an is the work of a limited human being : if you think not, answer these questions convincingly!

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
1. The denial of the Crucifixion of Jesus
2. The seeming Prophethood of Zhulqanain
3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)
5. Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses

Without the Hadiths and Tafsir and the Historical books, no body would be able to make sense of the Qur'an. It's like a book that dropped right out of the blues that even though is expected to be a follow up of the earlier revealed scriptures contradict it so much that they can't be bound together in a single volume (like the old and new Testament).

Denying the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Islamic Historical books creates other dilemma and unsolvable problems for Islam.

But why would these sincere Muslims of Old write damning things about their beloved Prophet? You will agree with me that Fabrications in religion are usually done by people to embellish the truth to make it more grander, nicer and glorious. Report of events that are seemingly Raw, Unpolished and Derogatory are usually Truths as the events happened.Well many like me need to see more of what you have as evidence. Not in view of argument but enriching knowledge.

1. The denial of the crucifixion of Jesus
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا (4:157)
Which means And their saying, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared (so) to them. They have no knowledge of it except following conjecture, and they did not kill him with certainty

It appears pretty straightforward. Pardon my analogy however numerous acts of magic are about be it card tricks or human slicing.
My key takeaways are that
a) They say they killed Jesus the son of Mary
b) They did not kill him
c) They did not crucify him
d) It appeared so that he was crucified and killed
e) Conclusions on his crucifixion and killing are made with incomplete information.

I innerstand that this questions the foundation of Christianity and logically interest and or annoyance may come from this.

Unfortunately, the Quran created more questions from butchering history that it becomes unbelievable. Why?
The narrative of the Qur'an cannot answer the following Questions
1. The Jews can NEVER EVER go against the Messiah because the Messiah is the one prophesied to Save Israel. Why would the Jews then say "We killed the Messiah, Jesus so of Mary?"

2. Muslims are the ones with different conjectures about the crucifixion, death and going up to heaven of Jesus. If Jesus wasn't crucified, who was His replacement?

3. It is understandable if Allah deceived the Jews and Romans, Why did Allah ALSO deceive Mary, the Disciples and all the followers of Jesus?

4. The Morality of Allah is in Question if he made an innocent man the replacement for Jesus crucifixion. Why would Allah allow an innocent man replace Jesus?

5. The Qur'an says that Jesus was taken to Heaven with Allah: How did this take place? Who was present?

6. Even the enemies of the Christians agree with history that Jesus was crucified and written history bears record of that.

As Christians, we can answer ANY Questions you can pose about Jesus crucifixion from the bible: the Qur'an came to complicate an otherwise simple history.

If these questions cannot be answered categorically convincingly, then the Qur'an goofed big time on this

Wilgrea7:
Finding something that looks and functions like a computer there would lead to a lot of questions. And it widely depends on the sort of "computer". If you see a Dell or HP computer there, you'd most certainly agree it was placed there, because the technology and companies required to make such a brand are only present on earth.

If you saw an alien device that had a functionality similar to what we would call a computer here on earth, one could speculate whether it came from another planet, or if it could be the result of an unknown operation local to mars (like hidden civilizations and so on).

I'm curious to see where this question leads to

Of course if it looks and functions like the computer (branded or not) it would generate ALL forms of speculations other than "it probably evolved from the Martian elements over billions of years"!

Common sense tells us that the origin must be extraterrestrial to Mars.

Why?
To a large extent, we know the properties and limitations of the physical space including planets, elements and compound.
We know that the ever-present Entropy NEVER generates INTELLIGENCE but chaos?
Its the more reason why we attribute ALL the seven wonders of the world not to natural selection but to Intelligent humans building them EVEN when for many, we still can't fathom how the "primitive humans" acquired the technology for such.

The second part of the discuss is this:
What if the Computer-like devices on Mars acquired consciousness and decided that they evolved over billions of years from the natural elements of Mars (even if they were branded Hp or Dell)? Would you think this was a rational conclusion?

Maynman:
is there anything that can be programmed that cannot be deprogrammed?
Who told you that you are nothing but a program?

Humans!
For we never cease to exist!

Next question : what is the evidence!

Wilgrea7:
You're strawmanning. I never said complexity created itself, nor do I believe I've ever held that position.

The question of where complexity comes from cannot be answered by pointing to more complexity, which is exactly what you're trying to do.

I am not Strawmaning you. I said

Tell me:
You go to Mars and find something that looks and functions like a computer on the planet. What would be the probability that it evolved from the natural elements on Mars?
Would you assume it was placed on ma's

I've removed the offending phrase!

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
1. The denial of the Crucifixion of Jesus
2. The seeming Prophethood of Zhulqanain
3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)
5. Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses

Without the Hadiths and Tafsir and the Historical books, no body would be able to make sense of the Qur'an. It's like a book that dropped right out of the blues that even though is expected to be a follow up of the earlier revealed scriptures contradict it so much that they can't be bound together in a single volume (like the old and new Testament).

Denying the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Islamic Historical books creates other dilemma and unsolvable problems for Islam.

But why would these sincere Muslims of Old write damning things about their beloved Prophet? You will agree with me that Fabrications in religion are usually done by people to embellish the truth to make it more grander, nicer and glorious. Report of events that are seemingly Raw, Unpolished and Derogatory are usually Truths as the events happened.Well many like me need to see more of what you have as evidence. Not in view of argument but enriching knowledge.

1. The denial of the crucifixion of Jesus
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا (4:157)
Which means And their saying, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared (so) to them. They have no knowledge of it except following conjecture, and they did not kill him with certainty

It appears pretty straightforward. Pardon my analogy however numerous acts of magic are about be it card tricks or human slicing.
My key takeaways are that
a) They say they killed Jesus the son of Mary
b) They did not kill him
c) They did not crucify him
d) It appeared so that he was crucified and killed
e) Conclusions on his crucifixion and killing are made with incomplete information.

I innerstand that this questions the foundation of Christianity and logically interest and or annoyance may come from this.

2. The seeming prophethood of Dhulqarnayn
There are diverse views about his prophethood however my takeaway from his story is the mercy shown to mankind through him in keeping Yajuj and Majuj away for a while.
They said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, indeed Gog and Magog are [great] corrupters in the land. So may we assign for you an expenditure that you might make between us and them a barrier?" (18 : 94)

Looking further in [21:96-97] Until, when Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj are let loose, and they swiftly swarm from every mound. and the time for the fulfilment of the true promise of Allah draws near,whereupon the eyes of those who disbelieved will stare in fear, and they will say: "Woe to us, we were indeed heedless of this; nay, we were wrongdoers.

His being a prophet or not is not as important beyond knowing there was one so powerful he was reverred and could create such barriers even if I haven't seen such a barrier.

3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
Muhammad pbuh is not making claims of the unknown or equating himself to the king, master of the day of Judgement.
The furqan is replete with verses describing paradise and stating it as a reward for the pious.
The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord.Q 47:15.

4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)

It appears you stopped reading at 19:71 and didn't read 19:72
Then We will deliver those who were devout, leaving the wrongdoers there on their knees.

5.Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses
It really seems to appear however remember
(3:33) Truly Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and of 'Imran above all mankind.
I haven't completed my trace and accept this as one of the verses that is not so clear. Nevertheless at the birth of Mary her mother says the girl child is not like the boy child My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me (3:35)
Will get back to you about this as soon as possible. The common opinion is Miriam the sister of Moses is referred to however in view that Aaron and Moses are latter born it doesn't seem enough reason for concern

Permit me to respond to this tomorrow morning.

Have a good night rest my brother

satmaniac:
My brother is not about discarding what we are not comfortable with. Like you said there is no legitimate backing for the collection and writing of them And Like you have seen demonstrated in this thread by me, the moment you place it side by side with the Quranic verse you see how alien most of the rules derived from Hadith are to the Quranic principle. Like I said try as you may, you can never ever find all this rubbishes in the Quran, that alone should tell you something.
Please bring bring forth your objections I am waiting. As soon as I am able I will answer them.

Let me ask you one question have you really study Hadith? Like the origin of these Hadith? Have you compared the earliest hadith and the later ones? I am asking you this question, because if you did you will doubt that the prophet of I slam really said such things. As a Cristian I don't have to bother you with this questions, but since you insist on the reliability of such sources, I am challenging you to get yourself the earlier Hadiths like Muwatta, Mussanaf ibn shayba, Mussanaf asan'a then compare them with the later Hadith collection like Sahih Bukhari, Muslim etc. This will tell you much about how those narrations were falsely attributed to the prophet. As most of the Hadith in the earliest collections stopped at the companions or contain the opinions of the companions on certain issues. But in the later collections all of a sudden the words were said to have come from the prophet, just to give weight to it. These are things that should make any sincere believer question the Hadith.

Allow the Quran to speak without interruption from all these narrations containing whims and prejudices of rulers, men, Arab and even the dynasties.

The earliest hadiths are worse, I've read a few some long time ago. I prefer to use ONLY accepted hadiths as my source, thus, I comply with your wish.

You Muslims rejected the earliest hadiths. Many of the earlier Sira and Tareekh are not even translated into English language. Modern Muslim scholars said they only accept the hadiths complied by Imam Bukhari, Muslim, An-Nasa'i, Abi Dawud, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah

Now, we were forced to use only hadiths within your selection only for us to hear that the Hadiths are in grades of Sahih, Hassan, Daif and Mawdu. Unfortunately, if I get you rightly, you even totally reject ALL of them.

For us who are non muslims, these books give us a great insight into Islam beyond your preferred Narrative.

Even if you reject them as theological sources, it is still useful as a historical source

satmaniac:
Answer to question number 4 is if the Christian believe in another source other than the bible I will not even listen to him. The reason you are asking this question majority of the people believe Hadith and other books are part of the sources in Islam. And if you look way back, you see the prophet and his companion only use Quran. Nothing more. Are you now telling me I am wrong by insisting you bring your evidences from what you and I know the prophet came with? Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why the hell do I need Hadith when you say the prophet even forbade it and yet his companions continue writing it? Whoever believes this is accusing the companions too of disobedience to the prophet. I will I follow something born out of disobedience to the order of God and his messenger? Please tell me why?

Trust the memory of Arabs with Quran? I trust the words of Allah over anything. And he is the one who promise to guide and protect the Quran from corruptions. 15:9 .

Do you also discard your Tafsir, Sira, Tarikh, Fiqh and Aqida as fake/unreliable just as the Hadiths? Please, help me understand you.

The Qur'an you use is a RECITATION of Hafs : this is from the memory of Arabs o just like the Hadiths.

satmaniac:
What is wrong in marrying the divorced wife of an adopted son? Is he your biological son? The Quran is clear on the women we can marry.
Please remove me from the list of Muslims that attributed saying to people who certainly did not say anything.

Don't forget that Zaid was the son of Mohammed UNTIL Allah abolished adoption.

Therefore, Mohammed actually married the Wife of his son.

What could be worse than this?

honesttalk21:
I find that Elizabeth was actually Mary's aunt, sister of Anna, Mary's mother. Joida, High Priest of Aaron, was father of Elizabeth and Anna, and thus grandfather of Jesus and of John the Baptist.

The names "Elizabeth" and "Anna" appear in separate contexts in the Gospels. Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist, and Anna is a prophetess who is mentioned in the Gospel of Luke. They are not directly related.

There is nothing like Joida, High Priest of Aaron in Jewish history. Here is the list of the Jewish High Priests from the third century up to the time of Christ
Onias I (3rd century BCE)
Simon I (3rd century BCE)
Onias II (3rd century BCE)
Simon II (3rd century BCE)
Onias III (2nd century BCE)
Jason (2nd century BCE)
Menelaus (2nd century BCE)
Alcimus (2nd century BCE)
Jonathan (2nd century BCE)

I don't know from who you got your history about Aaron.

Who is Anna and where did you get your history of her?

honesttalk21:
The most important here are that the Mary and Jesus are identified and the message from Allah is delivered.

This is not the important thing o!
The Qur'an gives a botched up history of what was already known in the gospels. This is the issue. This actually cast a serious DOUBT on the real Author of the Qur'an.

In the Bible
#Amram is the Father of Moses, Aaron and Mariam
#Mariam is the sister of Aaron
#Mariam is the daughter of Amram
#Amram was from the tribe of Levi

#Elizabeth and Mary are Cousins!
#Mary was from the tribe of Judah

#The tribe of Levi ceased to exist as it was among the 10 lost tribe of Israel in the northern kingdom dispersed by the Assyrians in 722 BC.

#There is at least 1800 years between Mary and Mariam.

#It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that Mary was of the tribe of Levi or be related remotely to Aaron.

You despise your own hadiths and Tafsir now we don't know where you get your history of Mary from.

Wilgrea7:
This seems like an appeal to complexity, which has already been dealt with in my most recent thread. But for the sake of this thread, I'll go over it again, and explain a bit more.

Complexity exists. The concept of a thing being "alive" in itself is already complex, talk less of the said thing being involved in some sort of order.

Are what the ants doing impressive? Absolutely. It's almost impossible not to notice the incredible complexity and in some cases, order in just about everything around us. But this says nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing about a god.

God is not an answer to the question of complexity. You're only pushing the question forward, and failing to answer it by alluding to some uncaused first cause as the reason for complexity.. which still doesn't answer the question.

At the end of the day, you arrive at the very answer you dread, which is "it's just the way it is", or "we don't know". In either case, introducing a god into the equation is meaningless.

The ants programmed themselves!

It is too easy to see now!
Dumb atoms coalesced together and suddenly acquired consciousness. Not only that, they grew Intelligence.

There wasn't any programmer behind the programming, the programs evolved by themselves from random assembly of atoms.

Tell me:
You go to Mars and find something that looks and functions like a computer on the planet. What would be the probability that it made itself?

Maynman:
Who is the you that they programmed?
If you are deprogrammed, who will remain?

You can't be deprogramed.
Who told you that?

Maynman:
Are you a nickname?

I refer to you Maynman :
You have been programmed to pupu /excrete as a result of you feeding.

Is this beyond comprehension?

Maynman:
Who is the “you” that they are programming?

Where did you know this? Jewish books?
😂

You is Maynman!

Programmed to pupu after eating loads of fufu with banga soup.

Maynman:
Even how to defecate, so brillant.

Programmed into you. You didn't know that!?
LOL!

Maynman:
Just like you are programmed to walk, that’s so brilliant.

Exactly as you learnt to read.
Programmed with eye sight and a brain to comprehend