₦airaland Forum

Maynman:
A miracle is generally defined, according to the etymology of the word—it comes from the Greek thaumasion and the Latin miraculum—as that which causes wonder and astonishment, being extraordinary in itself and amazing or inexplicable by normal standards.

We have so many magicians that can do that. Even in Christianity you can see the mockery of “miracles”

You mixed up magic with miracles: please rephrase!

GodsOwnMan:
Where did the programmer come from?

He was ALWAYS!

Is the infinite regress of cause and effect Scientifically and Logically feasible or possible?

Maynman:
You mean Christians created the term “god” which you’ve been conditioned to put capital g as “God”?
Bwahahahah

Anyone can use the Title God just as President, Chairman, Referee, Pope.

No way, Christians didn't create the title men did!

Theos, Elohim, God, OLORUN, Allah is the same TITLE. Sorry, you didn't know that

GodsOwnMan:
Believe in God existed tens of thousands of years before Christianity. Christianity is a relatively new religion. Get your facts right.

I wonder the relevance of your response to

God is simply a TITLE used by Christians to depict the SOURCE and ORIGIN of Everything!

God is a TITLE in Hebrew ELOHIM and in Greek Theo's!
For we Christians and Jews, the specific name or Identity of God is Yahweh!

GodsOwnMan:
Where did god come from?

He was ALWAYS!

Is the infinite regress of cause and effect Scientifically and Logically feasible or possible?

Shikamaru1:
Nonsense, the image below is from your Bible..

What is the Purpose of your existence?
I have told you mine!

How are you different from the dog bingo?

Maynman:
Yes “BELIEVEERS” are delusional.

That’s why i said you lack the meaning of what “thiest” and “atheist” mean.
“God” is a title not a person.
1. Which god did he reject, is it allah? Baal? Sango? Or Yahweh?
2. Which god does he BELIEVE is the “true creator” is it allah? Baal? Sango? Or yahweh”


There are definitions of “atheism” and “theism” that you can you read and save yourself from this ignorance.
See what religion is doing to you!

THEISM DOESN’T MEAN CHRISTIANITY.

What do you mean the “standard definition” of “atheism” and “theism” both are gotten from greek Language, hope you know

Atheism is lack of belief in god and gods, you’ll know that if you know what “theism” and “atheism” means.
See what religion is doing to you.

It looks like you just started reading up about Atheism and it is shacking you.

Your logic collapsed in front of you as you called a Nigerian who disbelief Mohamadu Buhari as the president of Nigeria and the one who claims that Donald Trump is the President of Nigeria are BOTH DELUSIONAL and I will add or REBELLIOUS!

Of course God is a TITLE and in relating with newbie Atheists, I always put a qualifier "God the Creator" which is still both a title BUT Generic !

As newbie Atheists probably you are not aware that Atheism is not a DISBELIEF in Yahweh or Allah or Vishnu BUT a Disbelief in the existence of any DEITY/God!
So you see that you are the one who need to go back to read up what you've been brainwashing yourself with.

The question of which God/Deity is irrelevant. You are the one who has thoroughly misappropriated the definition of Atheism you claim to be!

LeHMaR:
There are at least 18000 gods worshipped around the world, You don't believe in 17999, i don't believe in 18000... What makes you any better?

Too easy to sieve through them
17998 gods do not care of exclusivity of obeisance, they also do not promise eternal reward for their adherents neither do they promise punishment for evil people. Therefore, there is nothing to be worried about them.

Only two seem completely different
1. Yahweh of the Christians and Jews
2. Allah of the Muslims

See, I've simplified your problem .

LOL!!

Your argument is extremely weak!!!

Maynman:
Your logic also goes for those that calls themselves “believers”?

Of course!
No believer has seen God AND we know God in Part!

But ALL Atheists are ALSO believers even when they claim otherwise!

Maynman:
And they all still fall under THEISM.
You are proving the point yourself that’s because you don’t know what “theism” means

Don't be blinded by words:
I said!:
Although there are two kinds of satanism
1. The religious/spiritual satanism:
They actually replace God with a spirit entity "Satan"
2. The irreligious satanism:
They replace God with self

The religious Satanist is a THEIST!

The Irreligious Satanist is an ATHEIST: he doesn't relate to any higher invisible being EXCEPT himself!

Of course, I am just defining the term SATANIST as not every Atheists call themselves a Satanist!

ModCaller:
You're making assumptions about your god. That's a very biased reasoning.

I can as well tell you that the infinite regress of cause and effect came out of the cause and that your god didn't come out of the cause and doesn't even exist. Rather everything you attribute to your god is all a part of the infinite regress of cause and effect.

You see how infinitely bias and unreasonable that sounds? That's exactly how you sound.

I am making no single assumption about God.

I am taking you through REASON!

Is an infinite regress of Cause and Effect Scientifically and Logically possible?

Until you objectively truely answer this question, all your Atheism is pure emotionalism!

bukatyne:
Lol @ 'spectacular miracle'

@OP: if you do not believe in God or Church, then don't bother going.

I also believe you can manage yourself if you don't live with your parents and make your stance respectful known.


@Aggressive Christians: please stop disgracing us and quit forcing people to convert. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts people and Jesus clearly told us that people don't listen to your message, dust your feet and move on.

You believe in miracles: don't you?

Shikamaru1:
How do you know the purpose of your existence? What is the purpose of your existence? Seems you're living in an alternate universe in your mind . Intelligent people know that life is meaningless, did your god personally appear to you to reveal the purpose of your existence?

Unfortunately, an atheist is a Nihilist as they have a purposeless existence.

For me, my purpose is to BE A DELIGHT to Him who Created Me.

How?
1. By Loving God with all my Heart, Mind and Soul
2. Loving my Neighbor as myself
3. Living a life of Character that is dependable and pure
4. Helping others to know this God

My purpose in summary!

Roycemadeit:
Trump we know
Buhari we know
There is no need for belief �

A NIGERIAN PERSON WHO TAKES EITHER of the two positions is EITHER DELUSIONAL or REBELLIOUS

What is the difference between these categories of people

1. A person who Rejects or Disbelief Mohammadu Buhari as President of Nigeria
2. A person who believes that Donald Trump is the President of Nigeria

Such is the case between an Atheist AND a person who ascribes to a false Creator!


It is the same sickness in different form. Both would be tried for TREASON!

Maynman:
1. A delusional person
2. A delusional person.

There are definitions of “atheism” and “theism” that you can you read and save yourself from this ignorance.
See what religion is doing to you!

THEISM DOESN’T MEAN CHRISTIANITY.
Christianity is one of the types of THEISM, which SATANISTS are also too.

I don’t think you even know what “treason” is.

So good you understand that both are delusional

1. A person who Rejects or Disbelief Mohammadu Buhari as President of Nigeria God as the Creator of Everything
2. A person who believes that Donald Trump is the President of Nigeria a different God (Tor or Sango or Vishnu etc) is the Creator of Everything

Such is the case between an Atheist AND a person who ascribes to a false Creator!

Secondly:
I know the standard definition of Atheism and Theism.

Unfortunately, the same people who are finding it difficult to define who a WOMAN is have defined the words atheism as a LACK of BELIEF : which is a complete nonsense!

Can one truly LACK a BELIEF about issues?

Roycemadeit:
Fortunately atheism is not belief

Atheism is a belief!

A belief is a position a person takes when he has sufficient but incomplete information to truly know!

I know that 2+4 is SIX
I don't have to believe that 2+4 is six because I have a complete information of how 2+4 is six. I will be correct 100% of the time for this position!


A belief is based on a probability howbeit high but not 100%

Does an atheist truly KNOW that the Creator doesn't exist OR he has come to a position he considers as reasonable probability to take a position?

cassavaflakes:
Ironically, satanism is a actually a satire religion whose members are atheists

Of course!
Although there are two kinds of satanism
1. The religious/spiritual satanism:
They actually replace God with a spirit entity "Satan"
2. The irreligious satanism:
They replace God with self

Shikamaru1:
The creater doesn't exist because you can't see, hear or even feel him. Even if he exists, has he told you personally to worship him?

Good!
Let's start from here:
1. God does not need your Worship. God need your free will!

2. If the creator is made up of matter/materials and he obeys the laws of physics, where do you think his components come from and where does the laws of physics that his components are made from come from?

If God is made up of matter/materials then we must look higher than Him for His Creator.

3. Do you think an infinite regress of cause and effect is logically and scientifically possible?

ModCaller:
You're literally confusing yourself. As in literally contradicting everything you're saying.

So the person who started everything came out of nothing but the infinite regress of cause and effect didn't come out of nothing? Really bro?

It's not actually that hard to put together.

Slow down bro and wade through reason

1. Every Event is preceded by a Cause
2. It is logically and scientifically impossible to have an infinite regress of cause and effect
Which of these two postulates above is wrong?

Since Cause and Effect ALWAYS occur, what conclusion can you derive from 1 and 2?

donbenie:
Stop being naive..
The boldness with which you write rubbish is repugnant..

I am used to your kind of speech and language. It is the same spirit in different bodies and personalities!

Address issues and be not sentimental!

Shikamaru1:
The basis for your believe in an entity called Satan will suffice. I'm surprised you guys ascribe good things to god and bad things to Satan..

Good and Bad is not a yardstick for understanding that Satan exist. Good and Bad is relative to the Objective and Purpose of the Creator.
Is it good to kill? NO!
Is it good to kill a terrorist? YES!
What changed?

Any force/entity that prevents a man from fulfilling the purpose of his existence is Satan/satanic!

Maynman:
Anyone who BELIEVES he knows the “true creator” is a THEIST.
A ALLAH worshipper is a theist, a Baal worshipper is a theist, a yahweh worshipper which you are one is a theist.
Satan is a deity, only theists worship deities!!


Do you know the meaning of “atheism” and “theism”. Be factual and leave out emotions.

What is the difference between these categories of people

1. A person who Rejects or Disbelief Mohammadu Buhari as President of Nigeria
2. A person who believes that Donald Trump is the President of Nigeria

Such is the case between an Atheist AND a person who ascribes to a false Creator!


It is the same sickness in different form. Both would be tried for TREASON!

Crofton:
If one can believe everything on earth was created by a particular (supreme) being without knowing how that being came to be, then it's not far off if another believes that everything was spontaneously created with gradual evolution and natural selection doing the rest .

Slow down bro!

We know that the Universe came into existence from the expansion of the gravitational singularity at about 13.8 billion years ago. At that time, space, time and matter did NOT exist! Hence there could NOT have been a gradual evolution of existence as we know it. If you disagree, I can provide you with a logical proof.

If God is made up of matter (atoms, molecules, protons, neutrons etc) , this would be the greatest proof that He was created by something/someone else!
Do you agree with this?

Shikamaru1:
I have read your posts on this thread. Your arguments are hollow, why are you deliberately avoiding the part where the OP posited that theist claim that non believers will go to hell? That God is the father of Jesus Christ and other hare brained believe. Who is the one true God? Is it the christian God, the Muslim God, or the traditional God. Deep down you know those stories were concocted by humans like you and I but you're too scared to admit it instead you try to use flowery words and bogus write ups to confuse yourself..

I wish you could just separate issues!

There is a big difference between
1. Claiming the Creator doesn't exist
AND
2. Claiming that the Creator exists but His identity is UNKNOWN (Is He Yahweh, Allah, Tor, Vishnu etc)

Where do you stand and then we can talk! Vishnu or Tor didn't promise hellfire, did they?

ModCaller:
What did your god come out of? How did he come into being? Out of nothing? With all of his ingenuity and shear brilliance?

Start from there and you'll see what is likely not true.

Unfortunately, you over-simplify existence to a point you jump on unreasonable popular fad!

Let me wade you through the logic if you care for the truth
1. Every Event is preceded by a Cause
2. It is logically and scientifically impossible to have an infinite regress of cause and effect

The conclusion:
There must therefore exist a PRIME MOVER, the SOURCE of EVERYTHING, the UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE of EVERYTHING.

Christians call Him, the Creator, the Alpha and Omega, God, Father.
However, for now it doesn't matter what Christians call the SOURCE.

The question is:
Is their a SOURCE of EVERYTHING who STARTs the now infinite regress of cause and effect?

Will you please respond to this!?

Shikamaru1:
Do you have proof that there's an entity called Satan?

What kind of proof will suffice for you?

Maynman:
You lack knowledge of what you are saying. Do you even know the origin of the way “satan”?

A SATANIST is a THEIST,A Sango Worshipper is THEIST, A Baal Worshipper is a THEIST, A Yahweh worshipper is a THEIST, A Allah worshipper is THEIST.
And then we have ATHEISTS that don’t believe or worship any of these deities.

You are indeed the dumbest THEIST on nairaland.

Anyone who REJECTS the True Creator or REPLACES Him with SOMEONE/SOMETHING else is by default for SATAN!

In that wise, an atheist is a satanist!

Jennygold111:
What is responsible for everything?

The SOURCE is responsible as the UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE of Everything.

Jennygold111:
And you don't see the irony with your answer; what's your prove?

My proof is this


If postulate 1 is correct
(Every Effect is preceded by a Cause)
And
Postulate 2 is correct
(It is a scientific and logical impossibility to have an infinite regress of cause and effect.)

Then, we must necessarily have conclusion 3
(Since evidence of cause and events abound, it is therefore necessary that an "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything be.)

Wilgrea7:
I always try to be

I don't know. I sincerely don't. This is not a copout to try to deny the possibility of a god. I once held the notion that there must be an uncaused first cause.. but then i realized something.

The concept of an uncaused first cause is not a scientific one that has been proven by any evidence. It's more of a mental or philosophical thing we slap on to the question “why is there something rather than nothing?" in order to avoid the infinite regress fallacy.

It is actually scientific in that it is a PRODUCT of LOGIC. Logic is SCIENTIFIC!
If A>B (Postulate 1)
and
B>C (Postulate 1)
then
C> A ( Conclusion)

LOGIC is even more universally scientific because they are GENERIC and work Absolutely 100% of the time

Wilgrea7:
But in actuality... We have no idea. Infinite regress doesn't make sense to us. It is illogical. So the next logical explanation is a cause that wasn't caused, that led all things to be caused. But if we want to be honest with ourselves.. we need to admit that we don't just know at this point in time. If everything must need a cause, then why would an uncaused first cause truly be uncaused?

The question is uncomfortable either ways.. if the law of cause and effect holds true.. then we're faced with an uncomfortable infinite regress fallacy. Slapping on an uncaused first cause still violates the notion that everything that exists has a cause.

The Uncaused First Cause is just a necessary CONCLUSION to the postulate. There is no going round it. That is why many scientists who are Atheists are proposing an infinitely OSCILLATING UNIVERSE superimposed on the INFLATION theory. Which doesn't solve the problem anyways because every oscillation must start at a point.

The UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE is an Unavoidable Conclusion!

Wilgrea7:
I don't know if you've heard of the Kalam cosmological argument. It tries to tackle this by saying “everything that begins to exist has a cause, rather than just everything has a cause.

But then, we're left asking ourselves.. what things exist, that did not begin to exist? Meaning.. what things are eternal in nature?

This is where my logic, quite frankly, breaks down.. if one thing can exist eternally (i.e not begin to exist), then why can't 2.. or 3.. or more. What law is there that could prevent it?

But we know that the Universe BEGAN at about 13.8 Billion Years ago from a SINGULAR gravitational singularity. It certainly has a beginning.

There is no going around this ENIGMA aka the SOURCE!

Wilgrea7:
If it exists... Then yes.. it would be regarded as the source of everything.

TRUE!
A SELF-EXISTENT FORCE is the NUCLEUS and CATALYST that produced every other thing that exist.

By Strict ATHEISTIC definition of things that EXIST must be necessarily things that are SCIENTIFICALLY OBSERVABLE!

Wilgrea7:
Thank you for removing the theistic bias. However.. apart from the fact that the uncaused first cause is still something we haven't figured out yet as humans.. the issue with theism.. is the very bias you put aside.

Like i said earlier.. the theist doesn't just claim the existence of this force. They claim to know it's nature.. it's will.. it's desires and it's intentions. It seems like a big logical leap, when we've not even finished determining with certainty, the existence of this aforementioned first cause.

Once we go past the understanding that an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE created/is the Origin of EVERYTHING, we can start LOGICALLY looking at the NECESSARY Qualities that would make HIM/IT so!

Wilgrea7:
As we've observed

Good!

Wilgrea7:
I can agree with that

Good!

Wilgrea7:
This is the issue. This discussion then shifts to the existence of necessary or contingent things. We've observed all things to be contingent.. that is.. dependent on something for their existence.

But if everything is contingent, then we'll arrive at an infinite regress. The issue with saying something is necessary.. and therefore can simply just exist without a cause.. is that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what things have to be necessary.

We've observed contingent things. We've not directly.. as far as i know, observed any necessary thing. This is why i said the concept of an uncaused first cause.. is more of a philosophical one... Rather than something we've observed

Which brings me back to the question.. if one thing can be necessary, why can't 2 or 3 or 10?



If it is truly that difficult to understand... Then why do people claim to know? On what grounds do they base their knowledge?

If something as basic as the existence of a first cause is so complex and difficult to understand.. then why do you take the leap of saying it is a God.. and that this God has a certain nature? Or gender as you've just denoted?

Here I think you go emotional again. At this point, I am taking you through a journey of LOGIC.
If postulate 1 is correct (Every Effect is preceded by a Cause)
And
Postulate 2 is correct (It is a scientific and logical impossibility to have an infinite regress of cause and effect.)

Then, we must necessarily have conclusion 3 (Since evidence of cause and events abound, it is therefore necessary that an "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything be.)

At this point, forget about its true nature. That "UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE" at this point could be singular or plural, such could be Animate or Inanimate, such could be Intelligent or Dumb etc.

The first is, DO YOU have a LOGICAL (rather than Emotional) objection with the CONCLUSION that

Since evidence of cause and events abound, it is therefore necessary that an "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything be.



We will after crossing this bridge logically cross the bridge of whether the SOURCE is single/many, animate/inanimate, weak/powerful etc

I will also LOGICALY answer your question about OBSERVATION of the SOURCE !

Templee333:
There's something that happen in the minds of people who lost their believe in God. Its like the story of a crafty tortoise attending a feast in the sky with his birds friends lending it one feather each to fly & how it came to have a rough shell...u must have believed this as a child! Later u came 2 realize as an adult that these stories aren't real but someone is now trying to let u believe them again.
No matter how hard an atheist try,i dont think he/she can believe in God again! Never!

Quite the contrary sir!

When an atheist get to his breaking point: he realizes that he's been a fool all along. He then surrenders to God as His Creator.

Some breaking points include NDEs, Spiritual Encounters, Logically/Scientific enlightenment. Each person is different as the threshold for each Atheist also differ. If you want, I can give you examples of Atheists who became believers in the Creator!

Wilgrea7:
Very few atheists claim it's an accident. To say it's an accident is to say that you KNOW what caused everything to be.

She is saying she doesn't know. Big difference.

Also.. it's one thing to say that something was caused by something.. and it's another thing to claim that you know the nature of the first cause.

Theists don't just claim that there is a God who created everything. They claim more. Much more.

They claim the God is singular.. they claim the God had a son.. they claim the God doesn't like when we work on the Sabbath day.. they claim the God will one day judge us and send some to a place called hell.. and others to a place called heaven.

They make a myriad of other claims without a single shred of objective evidence to back up their claims.

Belief in a first cause does not equate to theism.. there is a big void of evidence that must be filled first

I hope that you'll be intellectually reasonable in this discussion.

There are a few logical questions you may need to answer.
1. Do you think an Uncaused First Cause of Everything Exist?
If not, can you justify your position?
2. If the "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything" exist, would it be logically and scientifically correct to call such a FORCE, the SOURCE of everything?

In answering the questions above, Forget the Real identity of the "Uncaused First Cause" of Everything": that's why I deliberately used the term FORCE rather than God (to remove theistic bias).