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 Education › Re: Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses by therationa(op): 1:09pm On Feb 19, 2008 |
Wordsmith:What advances has the bible brought into the world other than bigotry. You made my point for me. Thankx |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer? by therationa(op): 12:32pm On Feb 19, 2008 |
Horus:Thanks. Am glad you got my point. |
| Islam › Re: Is Islam Imperialist? by therationa(m): 12:29pm On Feb 19, 2008 |
stimulus:You are absolute correct. I was looking at it from the narrow sense it which it was defined in this thread. But the broader sense of the word is racial pride (or worse still racial superiority). Afro-centrism was a reaction to the adverse treatment Africans had been subjected to over the centuries, but at it own extreme, it tends to reverse the dangers of other national superiority dogmas againsts other people. Some of the problems resulting Afrocentrism was the demonification of Europeans in early post-colonisation Africa in places like Congo (Zaire) and today in Zimbabwe. Admittedly, problems of this nature do not generally admit of such a simplistic explanation, but when racial pride is poured into the mix, it only makes it more intractable. |
| Islam › Re: Is Islam Imperialist? by therationa(m): 12:10pm On Feb 19, 2008 |
Afro-centrism is a failed ideology, devoid of intellectual underpinnings. Just consider yourself human and all will be fine. Why are people always seeking to categorise/segregate themselves into constricting boxes that only serve to polarise humanity? Mixed with religious credulous zealotry, Afro-centrism is a wicked and potent poison in the fabric of the Africa. Do I need to give examples? |
| Christianity Etc › Absolutely Brilliant Evidence For Human Evolution; Vitamin C by therationa(op): 11:36am On Feb 19, 2008 |
| Christianity Etc › Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer? by therationa(op): 10:59am On Feb 19, 2008 |
If you lived in the period of the Old Testament, you would have had NOTHING to fear about burning in the eternal flames of hell. Why? Because the notion of hell as a place of eternal punishment did not exist at that time. The eternal burning fireworks of hell, as punishment, did not exist until gentle Jesus, meek and mild makes his entry onto the Judean landscape. Old Testament describes a notion of a place for the dead devoid of punishment, but this is a far cry from the burning fireworks, which did not enter popular imagination until Jesus gave it graphic illustration in the new Testament. So what reason did people living in the OT era have for been righteous, given that they were never subject to the threat of hellfire for not being righteous? With the advent of the Jesus doctrine, the place of the dead takes a cruel and particularly wicked refurbishment from a place of mild repose to one of eternal punishment. Imagine the surprise of those souls who were already in hell before Jesus arrived and enjoying gentle relaxation. Upon Jesus's arrival, the sheep would have had to be separated from the goats, with the goats subjected to the newly introduced furnishings of fireworks. So much for the kind, meek, gentle and loving Jesus For more on the doctrine of hell, check the following links below; http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113947.0.html#msg1971669 On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html When Was Jesus Born? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 [b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589 God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537 Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343 What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113871.0.html What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617 Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html How Is Salvation Achieved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632 Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426 Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340 Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311 When Was Jesus Crucified? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665 On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353 Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528 Where Did Sin Originate? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291 For The Non-beleivers Only, 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957 Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631 Has Atheism Got Principle? No https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180 It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940 Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682 Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268 Great Books About Non-belief https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935 Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137 Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928 Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155 Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099 Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975 Genesis Vs Genetics https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html Jesus Genealogy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616 £300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508 Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160 ==================================================================================================== |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated by therationa(op): 10:35am On Feb 19, 2008 |
Am just hoping someone will be saved from the likes of Cerullo, Hinn, Oral Roberts, Swaggard etc. And sure enough, I am an advocate for scientific rationalism. I think religion (xianity and all religions) poses a threat to our civilisation. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Again, London Stops Ashimolowo’s N16bn Church Project by therationa(m): 10:07am On Feb 19, 2008 |
Thank goodness! A temple for the worship of the pastor's ego has been put a stop to. Why doesn't he give the money that was earmarked to the temple to the poor. That's the sort of thing Jesus would have approved of. Can't wait for his lavish birthday bash again  |
| Christianity Etc › Re: The Daily Contradictions Of The Bible Thread. by therationa(m): 1:02am On Feb 19, 2008 |
Interesting videos, please watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E435JRgZ9Zk&feature=related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otqYFMZl_1o&feature=related |
| Christianity Etc › Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated by therationa(op): 12:40am On Feb 19, 2008 |
Does Maurice Cerullo (or God) really heal? Watch him (Him) at work in the attached video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ4l_r_JnH8 Enjoy |
| Christianity Etc › Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation by therationa(op): 12:14am On Feb 19, 2008 |
The Jesus Mysteries (TJM)hypothesis has been around for more than two centuries. Essentially, it posits that the central tenets of the Christian tradition were copied from the Pagan Mysteries of the era (of which there were many - Mithras, Iris, Osiris-Dionysus, etc) and that there never was a REAL human character called Jesus. Since Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy published their popular book, Jesus Mysteries, a number of other historians (professional and amateur) have started investigating the history of Christianity from a purely mythological perspective (Richard Carrier, Earl Doherty, Robert M. Price, R. G. Price). The central tenets of TJM was that Christianity developed from the cocktail of mystical religions of the 3rd century BCE to the 2-3 century CE. These religions deified a central figure who lived in the allegorical (mythical) world, rather than a real flesh and blood individual. The Gnostics were an example of such religion, in that there did not believe that Jesus was a flesh and blood individual, but rather appeared to be flesh and blood ( docetism). Gnostic belief cause a lot of trouble for early Christian doctrine, in that if Jesus was never flesh and blood, then it could never be said that he suffered for mankind. With the ascendency of orthodoxy Christianity, Gnosticism was persecuted out of the existence by the early Christian church. Ironically, to counter Gnostic doctrine, early church fathers were motivated to interpolate existing gospels and pauline epistles inserting anti-gnostic material. Freke and Gandy postulate that the apostle Paul may indeed have been Gnostic and with orthodoxy winning the battle for supremacy, orthodoxy adapted Paul's message to fit their doctrine. Their case for this thesis is the notion that nowhere does Paul, in any of his surviving works, show an intimate knowledge of the man Jesus, in flesh and blood. That there are Gnostic ideas in the NT is also supported by a number of NT scholars today, notably Robert M. Price, Elaine Pagel. However, this is still a new area of research. Gnosticism was clearly one of the mystical forms of religions of the early first millenium, deriving most of its character from the other mystical tradition of the region. Within a few decades of the establishment of orthodoxy Christianity, its similarity to the Pagan cults of the day did not fail to be noticed by some of its critics, the most famous of whom was Celsus( c. 170 CE.), a philosopher and satirist. The similarity between Christianity and the Pagan Mysteries (Osirus-Dionysus, Horus, Mythras, Iris etc) so disturbed some of the early Christian fathers, such as Justin Martyr (100 -165 CE), that some of them have to resort to the most bizarre of reason to explain the similarity to the Pagan cults. This is what Celsus had to say about early Christianity; "Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christiains - and if so, how are they unique? Or are ours to be accounted myths ans theirs believed? What reasons do the Christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs? In truth there is nothing at all unusual about what the Christians believes, except that the believe it to the exclusion of more comprehensive truths about God". The 2nd century Christian apologist, Justin Martyr, on being countered that Christianity had borrowed all its basic features from the existing cults of the Greco-Egyptico-Romano-Persion world, this is what he had to say; "Having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come and that the ungodly amongst men were to be punished by fire, the wicked spirit put forth many to be called Sons of God, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things that were said with regards to Christ were merely marvellous tales, like the things that were said by the poets". The father Tertullian also used the diabolical mimicry excuse to explain the close similarity between Christianity and the pre-existing cults at the time. This is Tertullian; "The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness o fsins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, andbrings in the symbol of resurrection. Let u stherefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who caopies certain things of those that be Divine". Essentially, these early Christian apologist were saying "So what, our religions looks similar to your religions, but we did not copy from you. The devil mimicked our religion in your religion in anticipation of the advent of our religion". This was the standard excuse given then by the apologist, which has not changed in 2000 years of the evolution of Christianity. Is it not obvious how desperate the Christians had to go to explain away their wholesale copying of the cults of the Roman world and dressing them up as unique and their own. WHO ARE THE REAL PLAGIARIST? References The Jesus Mysteries, Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy The Jesus Puzzle, Earl Doherty The Incredibly Shrinking Son of Man, Robert M Price The Jesus Legend, G. A. Wells Misquoting Jesus, Bart Erhman Lost Christianities, Bart Erhman Jesus - A very Jewish Myth, R. G. Price The Pagan Christ, Tom Hapur Jesus For the Non-religious, Bishop John Spelby Spong http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b3a47345f84.htm ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html When Was Jesus Born? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 [b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589 God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537 Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343 What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617 Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html How Is Salvation Achieved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632 Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426 Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340 Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311 When Was Jesus Crucified? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665 On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353 Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528 Where Did Sin Originate? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291 For The Non-beleivers Only, 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957 Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631 Has Atheism Got Principle? No https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180 It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940 Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682 Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268 Great Books About Non-belief https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935 Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137 Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928 Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155 Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099 Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975 Genesis Vs Genetics https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html Jesus Genealogy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616 £300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508 Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160 ==================================================================================================== |
| Christianity Etc › The Bible And History: Part 1, Mark's Levity With His Source Material by therationa(op): 7:31pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
In this series of threads, I shall be examining various narratives in the Bible to establish the extend to which they are internally consistent and how they corroborate with other independent external well attested historical data. In this first thread, I shall examine a passage from the book of Mark (Mark 2: 25 - 26) and 1 Samuel (1 Samuel 21: 1 - 6) [table] [tr][td]Mark 2: 23 - 28[/td][td]1 Samuel 21: 1 - 6[/td][/tr] [tr][td]23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" 25 He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." 27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath [/td][td]1 David went to Nob, to Ahimelech the priest. Ahimelech trembled when he met him, and asked, "Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?" 2 David answered Ahimelech the priest, "The king charged me with a certain matter and said to me, 'No one is to know anything about your mission and your instructions.' As for my men, I have told them to meet me at a certain place. 3 Now then, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever you can find." 4 But the priest answered David, "I don't have any ordinary bread on hand; however, there is some consecrated bread here—provided the men have kept themselves from women." 5 David replied, "Indeed women have been kept from us, as usual whenever set out. The men's things are holy even on missions that are not holy. How much more so today!" 6 So the priest gave him the consecrated bread, since there was no bread there except the bread of the Presence that had been removed from before the LORD and replaced by hot bread on the day it was taken away. [/td][/tr] [/table] Basically, Mark is describing an event that was recorded by Samuel. So at the very least, we would expect him to have checked his source material (or was he inspired) and get his fact right. OK? Wrong! Mark says that the high priest was Abiathar when in fact the high priest was Ahimelech (correct in Samuel). Abiathar was in fact Ahimelech's son. Not particularly versed in the OT, Mark lets this error into his work. It is generally believed by the New Testament scholarly community that Mark was the first gospel to be written (around 70 CE) and that the other gospels are in part based on Mark. The other gospel writers (Luke 6:4 and Matt 12: 3) on noticing Mark's error silently correct it. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2: by therationa(op): 5:54pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
Anyone had time to review this article? I know it's a bit long |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists by therationa(op): 5:10pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
4Him:Information is information; whether it comes from a website or not; if it is factually correct it remains so, in spite of the source. I was indeed raised a Catholic, then a Seventy-day Adventist. 7SA are particularly sticklers for the bible and read the bible almost cover2cover. All atheists authors I know have attacked ALL the religions, but most books in Western circulation are written by people who were raised in a Christian tradition. so they know more about that tradition than the m-slim tradition. A book publish last year called the Atheist Manifestor by Michel Onfray is particularly scathing about i-slim. Two other critiques of I-slam are Ign Warraq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. They have got books out. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: A Christian's View Of Other Christians And M-slims In Nigeria by therationa(op): 4:54pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
4Him:Thanks for acknowledging that. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus: Part 1 by therationa(op): 4:51pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
4Him:Why did he post on this thread then? BTW, I used the word MAY, meaning he could choose to or not. I also say "that you guys should not expect" a response, meaning I reserve the right to respond. Do you understand this language? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Is It Biblical For Christian Women To Wear Trousers? by therationa(m): 4:46pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
This is 1 Tim 2, with Paul advising on the standard of decorum for, amongst other thing/people, women. 1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made fo everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. 9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Is this the standard we see in the churches? How about the stuff of women NOT having braided hair BTW, women are saved through childbearing. That's a new one. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists by therationa(op): 4:27pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
Reptyle:I would attack any form of superstition (christian and non-christian). I happen to have been raised a christian; so I know more about xian than any other religion, having experienced the xian life. My knowledge of i-slam and the koran is not that good so I cannot attack it as thoroughly as I would like to. |
| Christianity Etc › A Christian's View Of Other Christians And M-slims In Nigeria by therationa(op): 3:47pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
Interested in knowing what Christians think of other Christians. Following the attached link; http://forum.nigeriantimesinternational.com/index.php?topic=2413.0 |
| Education › Re: Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses by therationa(op): 3:29pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
Jerie:Why don't you get your mind out of the bible and learn to think for once? Also see : http://forum.nigeriantimesinternational.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d39fb5d233c8b3542fee740bda6d484f&topic=2413.0 |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Kenneth Copeland Fleecing Some Simple And Gullible Christians by therationa(op): 3:18pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
Why don't your church sell the plane and give the money to the poor, like Jesus would have done. Remember Jesus asking the rich to sell their possessions and give the money to the poor. Talk about following in Jesus's footsteps. http://forum.nigeriantimesinternational.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d39fb5d233c8b3542fee740bda6d484f&topic=2413.0 |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Check Out The Vibrant Church Websites:listen And Watch Life Word Of God by therationa(m): 2:46pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
| Christianity Etc › On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2: by therationa(op): 1:57pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
DISCLAIMER: The following article you are about to read is NOT my work. It is the work of Kenneth E. Nahigian taken from the site http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2virgi93.html. I am giving the article and the source in good old-fashion SCHOLARLY TRADITION. This article provides a "plausible" scholarly interpretation of Isaiah 7, commonly used by the Christian community as the prophecy of Jesus' virgin birth. I am posting the entire article as a thread to elicit a SCHOLARLY CRITICAL APPRAISAL from our Christian friends on the forum. I relied on this article in my thread about the virgin birth (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html) and was criticized by the Christian scholars on this forum for a sloppy use of the material. I would like now to be put straight on my understanding on Isaiah 7 by a critical review of my source material. So my Christian friends, PLEASE, could you oblige me with your review of the material given below, providing your sources as well, so that I may cross-reference them. I apologize, the article is a bit long. ===================================================================================== A Virgin-Birth Prophecy? by Kenneth E. Nahigian 1993 / March-April Prophecy is a muddy science, and Bible prophecy more muddy than most. Take those Old Testament prophecies. Evangelists never tire of telling us that hundreds were fulfilled in the life of Jesus, far too many to be called coincidence. But how many of these are real, and how many are prophetia ex eventu--prophecies constructed after the fact, products of careful selection and interpretation? To get an idea, let's look at the most famous, the prophecy of the child Immanuel as presented in the Gospel of Matthew: Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us (1:22-23 , KJV). Most good Christians take this at face value, assured that the prophet Isaiah did indeed describe Jesus' miraculous conception and birth seven hundred years before. But did he? Authorities are nearly unanimous. The answer is no. What did Isaiah really say? Turning to Isaiah 7:14 (Masoretic text), we find his precise words: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, ha'almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Matthew's interpretation of this passage has several problems, the largest hanging on the Hebrew word 'almah. Writing in Greek, the gospel author turned almah into parthenos , a word usually (but not always) meaning "virgin." In fact, he had a precedent for this; the Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament used by Greek-speaking Jews of his day, did indeed use parthenos in the Isaiah passage. But the Septuagint was for the most part a notoriously sloppy translation, and its version of Isaiah was generally more error-ridden than the rest. By the Middle Ages, the Jews had abandoned the Septuagint, and later Greek translations, by Aquila, Theodotion, Lucien and others, did not use the word parthenos. (The Septuagint, commonly known as the LXX, is still favored by Eastern Orthodox churches.) Assuredly, the Hebrew Old Testament predating the Septuagint used 'almah, so what did the word mean? While rare in the Hebrew Bible, almah does occur here and there, notably in Genesis 24:43 and Exodus 2:8 , but an examination of the contexts of these passages will show nothing to suggest that the noun imputed virginity. On the other hand, a male youth in the Old Testament was called na'ar or elem, the feminine forms of which were na'arah and 'almah respectively. The limited usage of elem (lad or stripling) in the Old Testament nowhere implied sexual purity; thus an 'almah was an adolescent female, virgin or not, just as an elem was an adolescent male. In fact, one verse does seem to use 'almah in reference to a nonvirgin. This is Proverbs 30:19 , which listed four things too marvelous to understand: the way of an eagle in the air, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the sea, and the way of a man with a maiden ( 'almah). To say the least, "the way of a man with an 'almah" would certainly jeopardize a state of sexual purity, but more damaging than this rather obvious fact is the comparison that the writer went on to state: "Such is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats, wipes her mouth, and says, 'I have done no wrong'" (v:20 , NAB). It seems odd writer that the author would use 'almah to denote sexual purity and then compare it to the ongoing affairs of an adulterous woman. More likely the author's point was that all these things have one element in common: they do not leave much of a trace. Aside from this, the Torah does, in fact, have an explicit word for virgin (betulah or bethulah), which is always used where the context requires virginity. (For confirmation, see Genesis 24:16 , Leviticus 21:14 , and Deuteronomy 22:15-19 ). Even Isaiah used it in 62:5 . Its nonuse in the "Immanuel" passage is a rather loud hint that Isaiah spoke only of a young woman, not specifically of a virgin. More to the point, nearly all modern commentaries agree with Talmudic scholars that Isaiah's "sign" had nothing to do with a messiah. Reviewing half a dozen for this article, I found only one dissenter. Significantly, it was one that spouted the fundamentalist party line on every other issue. Interested readers can jaunt to the library and peruse the massive Interpreter's Bible (Vol. 5, pp. 217-22), one of the most authoritative works in the field. Or more succinctly, try the popular Harper's Bible Dictionary (Paul J, Achtemeier, gen. ed., 1985), page 419, where this statement is found: It is clear, however, that, Isaiah 7:14 did not speak of the miraculous birth of Jesus centuries later, The sign of Immanuel offered by the prophet to Ahaz had to do with the imminent birth of a child, of a mother known to Ahaz and Isaiah, and signified God's presence with his people, Indeed, Isaiah's word for "sign" was 'ot, which in the Hebrew Bible invariably indicated an imminent sign or omen, not one in the far future. Keep reading, in fact, and you will see Isaiah's sign appear just a few verses later (Is. 8:3-4 ), when a certain prophetess gives birth to a son--a child whom God called "Immanuel" in verse 8. By contrast, nowhere in the New Testament did any character ever call Jesus Immanuel. Why the confusion? Of course, the author of the Gospel of Matthew had a vested interest in the nascent church and wanted to ground the new Christian mythos in Jewish prophecy whenever possible. Almost all scholars agree this "Matthew" was not the apostle but rather a Greek-speaking Christian living in or near Antioch of Syria, who wrote about A.D. 90, about two generations after the crucifixion. Very likely, he was familiar with only the Septuagint version of Isaiah. (That Matthew wrote the first gospel was a tradition started by Bishop Papias of Hieropolos in the second century.) Also, of course, the early Christians would have liked a virgin-born savior anyway, out of sheer competitiveness, because so many other rival religions had one. (Mithra, Zoroaster, Adonis, and Dionysus were just a few.) More- over, we know the gospel writers were not adverse to massaging and even manufacturing details in order to "flesh out" the Jesus story. That is why, for example, you find such conflicting genealogies for Jesus in Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 . All things considered, it is hardly surprising that "Matthew" would pull Isaiah a bit out of context and try to wring a new meaning from it. What is surprising is that this literary sleight of hand grew to become such a cornerstone of Christendom and still has modern fundamentalists so befuddled. So let's dust off our Bibles (I like the New Revised English Bible best for clarity and the Revised Standard Version for beauty) and reread the Immanuel prophecy--in context. The setting is the Syro-Ephraimite war (ca. 734 B.C.). Wicked King Ahaz of Judah was frantic about Ephraim (another name for the northern kingdom, Israel) and Damascus (capital of Syria), which were plotting a preemptive strike. Isaiah enters, offering a sign. Ahaz demurs. Isaiah storms at him for his lack of faith and then provides a sign anyway: A male child would be born. Before this child is old enough to know to "refuse evil and choose the good," Assyria would lay waste both Samaria and Damascus (7:16 ). [This sub-prophecy, in fact, came true in 2 Kings 16:9 ; 17:5-6 .] Then, to punish Ahaz, Assyria itself, with Egypt, would arise as a far greater threat. Think about this. If Ahaz was concerned with an imminent attack from Samaria and Syria, why offer a sign that would not occur for seven centuries? To Ahaz this would be no sign at all. Also, if the Immanuel child was God incarnate, how could Isaiah speak of a time when Immanuel would not know enough to choose good over evil? What about divine omniscience? Note also the striking parallel between verses 7:16 and 8:4 . Here is Isaiah prophesying almost identically about both children. The more closely you look, the more difficult to deny that these two are identical. You can hardly blame evangelicals for seeing a special significance in the name Immanu'el, Hebrew for "God with us," but such language and imagery was right at home in the world of old Jewish nomenclature, where every other proper name seemed a reminder of God's presence. Thus we have Isaiah, which means "God's help"; Michael , "Like unto God"; Israel," "Striving with God"; Elihu, "He is my God"; Adonijah , "Yahweh Lord"; and a host of others. Then again, some apologists try to rescue their favored exegesis by equating both Immanuel and Jesus with the child mentioned a bit later in chapter 9, "Unto us a child is born, " It is tempting. This section, while obscure, is in fact one of the most powerful and poetic passages in the Old Testament. It may well be an early messianic prophecy (I like to think it is), but in fairness, note that most Jewish scholars (who should know better than evangelicals) insist it is an ode praising Hezekiah, Ahaz's righteous son (2 Chron. 29 ), who came to the throne in 720 B.C. and centralized the worship of Jehovah at Jerusalem. The various titles ascribed to him, such as "Prince of Peace" and "Everlasting Father," were apparently honorifics used by the ancient Jews for favorite kings. (You find the same sort of bread-buttering in Egyptian hymns to the pharaoh and in Babylonian royal eulogies.) Hebrew scholars also remind us, gently, that the key Hebrew verbs in Isaiah 9:6 are in the past tense. A moot point. For reasons stated earlier, we cannot use the child in Isaiah 9:6 as a bridge connecting Immanuel to Jesus. As Old Testament prophecies of the Christian Messiah go, this one, like so many others, has been overrated. Also see Part 1 here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 ==================================================================================== ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html When Was Jesus Born? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 [b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589 God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537 Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343 What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617 Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html How Is Salvation Achieved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632 Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426 Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340 Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311 When Was Jesus Crucified? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665 On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353 Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528 Where Did Sin Originate? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291 For The Non-beleivers Only, 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957 Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631 Has Atheism Got Principle? No https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180 It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940 Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682 Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268 Great Books About Non-belief https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935 Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137 Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928 Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155 Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099 Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975 Genesis Vs Genetics https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html Jesus Genealogy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616 £300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508 Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160 ==================================================================================================== |
| Christianity Etc › Re: On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus: Part 1 by therationa(op): 12:22pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
imhotep:In fact, Imhotep, I would be VERY much oblige if you could provide me like your SCHOLARLY critique of the document on the site (http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2virgi93.html ). I would also appreciate it if you could provide your sources so I can cross-reference them. I am sure such an approach would help in my understanding of Isaiah 7 and the virgin prophecy. Thankx |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Kenneth Copeland Fleecing Some Simple And Gullible Christians by therationa(op): 11:51am On Feb 18, 2008 |
True, nothing new. But they still pull the crowd and audiences who get fleeced. What is wrong with warning people against the likes of the Copelands? That was the point of my post. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus: Part 1 by therationa(op): 11:47am On Feb 18, 2008 |
I have shamefully copied this article (Kenneth E. Nahigian ) from this website http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2virgi93.html. This should show you that scholarly opinion is not cut and dry. I would advise you read the site because it is better formated there. This will remain a matter of dispute for many years to come. It always easy to find material that defend ones, this is one of the materials I relied on. There are many more. Would you care to show me the material you relied on so I can take a balanced view? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prophecy is a muddy science, and Bible prophecy more muddy than most. Take those Old Testament prophecies. Evangelists never tire of telling us that hundreds were fulfilled in the life of Jesus, far too many to be called coincidence. But how many of these are real, and how many are prophetia ex eventu--prophecies constructed after the fact, products of careful selection and interpretation? To get an idea, let's look at the most famous, the prophecy of the child Immanuel as presented in the Gospel of Matthew: Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us (1:22-23 , KJV). Most good Christians take this at face value, assured that the prophet Isaiah did indeed describe Jesus' miraculous conception and birth seven hundred years before. But did he? Authorities are nearly unanimous. The answer is no. What did Isaiah really say? Turning to Isaiah 7:14 (Masoretic text), we find his precise words: Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, ha'almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Matthew's interpretation of this passage has several problems, the largest hanging on the Hebrew word 'almah. Writing in Greek, the gospel author turned almah into parthenos , a word usually (but not always) meaning "virgin." In fact, he had a precedent for this; the Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament used by Greek-speaking Jews of his day, did indeed use parthenos in the Isaiah passage. But the Septuagint was for the most part a notoriously sloppy translation, and its version of Isaiah was generally more error-ridden than the rest. By the Middle Ages, the Jews had abandoned the Septuagint, and later Greek translations, by Aquila, Theodotion, Lucien and others, did not use the word parthenos. (The Septuagint, commonly known as the LXX, is still favored by Eastern Orthodox churches.) Assuredly, the Hebrew Old Testament predating the Septuagint used 'almah, so what did the word mean? While rare in the Hebrew Bible, almah does occur here and there, notably in Genesis 24:43 and Exodus 2:8 , but an examination of the contexts of these passages will show nothing to suggest that the noun imputed virginity. On the other hand, a male youth in the Old Testament was called na'ar or elem, the feminine forms of which were na'arah and 'almah respectively. The limited usage of elem (lad or stripling) in the Old Testament nowhere implied sexual purity; thus an 'almah was an adolescent female, virgin or not, just as an elem was an adolescent male. In fact, one verse does seem to use 'almah in reference to a nonvirgin. This is Proverbs 30:19 , which listed four things too marvelous to understand: the way of an eagle in the air, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the sea, and the way of a man with a maiden ( 'almah). To say the least, "the way of a man with an 'almah" would certainly jeopardize a state of sexual purity, but more damaging than this rather obvious fact is the comparison that the writer went on to state: "Such is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats, wipes her mouth, and says, 'I have done no wrong'" (v:20 , NAB). It seems odd writer that the author would use 'almah to denote sexual purity and then compare it to the ongoing affairs of an adulterous woman. More likely the author's point was that all these things have one element in common: they do not leave much of a trace. Aside from this, the Torah does, in fact, have an explicit word for virgin (betulah or bethulah), which is always used where the context requires virginity. (For confirmation, see Genesis 24:16 , Leviticus 21:14 , and Deuteronomy 22:15-19 ). Even Isaiah used it in 62:5 . Its nonuse in the "Immanuel" passage is a rather loud hint that Isaiah spoke only of a young woman, not specifically of a virgin. More to the point, nearly all modern commentaries agree with Talmudic scholars that Isaiah's "sign" had nothing to do with a messiah. Reviewing half a dozen for this article, I found only one dissenter. Significantly, it was one that spouted the fundamentalist party line on every other issue. Interested readers can jaunt to the library and peruse the massive Interpreter's Bible (Vol. 5, pp. 217-22), one of the most authoritative works in the field. Or more succinctly, try the popular Harper's Bible Dictionary (Paul J, Achtemeier, gen. ed., 1985), page 419, where this statement is found: It is clear, however, that, Isaiah 7:14 did not speak of the miraculous birth of Jesus centuries later, The sign of Immanuel offered by the prophet to Ahaz had to do with the imminent birth of a child, of a mother known to Ahaz and Isaiah, and signified God's presence with his people, Indeed, Isaiah's word for "sign" was 'ot, which in the Hebrew Bible invariably indicated an imminent sign or omen, not one in the far future. Keep reading, in fact, and you will see Isaiah's sign appear just a few verses later (Is. 8:3-4 ), when a certain prophetess gives birth to a son--a child whom God called "Immanuel" in verse 8. By contrast, nowhere in the New Testament did any character ever call Jesus Immanuel. Why the confusion? Of course, the author of the Gospel of Matthew had a vested interest in the nascent church and wanted to ground the new Christian mythos in Jewish prophecy whenever possible. Almost all scholars agree this "Matthew" was not the apostle but rather a Greek-speaking Christian living in or near Antioch of Syria, who wrote about A.D. 90, about two generations after the crucifixion. Very likely, he was familiar with only the Septuagint version of Isaiah. (That Matthew wrote the first gospel was a tradition started by Bishop Papias of Hieropolos in the second century.) Also, of course, the early Christians would have liked a virgin-born savior anyway, out of sheer competitiveness, because so many other rival religions had one. (Mithra, Zoroaster, Adonis, and Dionysus were just a few.) More- over, we know the gospel writers were not adverse to massaging and even manufacturing details in order to "flesh out" the Jesus story. That is why, for example, you find such conflicting genealogies for Jesus in Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 . All things considered, it is hardly surprising that "Matthew" would pull Isaiah a bit out of context and try to wring a new meaning from it. What is surprising is that this literary sleight of hand grew to become such a cornerstone of Christendom and still has modern fundamentalists so befuddled. So let's dust off our Bibles (I like the New Revised English Bible best for clarity and the Revised Standard Version for beauty) and reread the Immanuel prophecy--in context. The setting is the Syro-Ephraimite war (ca. 734 B.C.). Wicked King Ahaz of Judah was frantic about Ephraim (another name for the northern kingdom, Israel) and Damascus (capital of Syria), which were plotting a preemptive strike. Isaiah enters, offering a sign. Ahaz demurs. Isaiah storms at him for his lack of faith and then provides a sign anyway: A male child would be born. Before this child is old enough to know to "refuse evil and choose the good," Assyria would lay waste both Samaria and Damascus (7:16 ). [This sub-prophecy, in fact, came true in 2 Kings 16:9 ; 17:5-6 .] Then, to punish Ahaz, Assyria itself, with Egypt, would arise as a far greater threat. Think about this. If Ahaz was concerned with an imminent attack from Samaria and Syria, why offer a sign that would not occur for seven centuries? To Ahaz this would be no sign at all. Also, if the Immanuel child was God incarnate, how could Isaiah speak of a time when Immanuel would not know enough to choose good over evil? What about divine omniscience? Note also the striking parallel between verses 7:16 and 8:4 . Here is Isaiah prophesying almost identically about both children. The more closely you look, the more difficult to deny that these two are identical. You can hardly blame evangelicals for seeing a special significance in the name Immanu'el, Hebrew for "God with us," but such language and imagery was right at home in the world of old Jewish nomenclature, where every other proper name seemed a reminder of God's presence. Thus we have Isaiah, which means "God's help"; Michael , "Like unto God"; Israel," "Striving with God"; Elihu, "He is my God"; Adonijah , "Yahweh Lord"; and a host of others. Then again, some apologists try to rescue their favored exegesis by equating both Immanuel and Jesus with the child mentioned a bit later in chapter 9, "Unto us a child is born, " It is tempting. This section, while obscure, is in fact one of the most powerful and poetic passages in the Old Testament. It may well be an early messianic prophecy (I like to think it is), but in fairness, note that most Jewish scholars (who should know better than evangelicals) insist it is an ode praising Hezekiah, Ahaz's righteous son (2 Chron. 29 ), who came to the throne in 720 B.C. and centralized the worship of Jehovah at Jerusalem. The various titles ascribed to him, such as "Prince of Peace" and "Everlasting Father," were apparently honorifics used by the ancient Jews for favorite kings. (You find the same sort of bread-buttering in Egyptian hymns to the pharaoh and in Babylonian royal eulogies.) Hebrew scholars also remind us, gently, that the key Hebrew verbs in Isaiah 9:6 are in the past tense. A moot point. For reasons stated earlier, we cannot use the child in Isaiah 9:6 as a bridge connecting Immanuel to Jesus. As Old Testament prophecies of the Christian Messiah go, this one, like so many others, has been overrated. ================================================================================= |
| Christianity Etc › Kenneth Copeland Fleecing Some Simple And Gullible Christians by therationa(op): 11:11am On Feb 18, 2008 |
The tele-evangelists Kenneth Copeland and his wife are being subjected to a congressional investigation about their ministry and the charges of deception. Watch this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jufvuyPtatE ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html When Was Jesus Born? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 [b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589 God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537 Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343 What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617 Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html How Is Salvation Achieved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632 Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426 Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340 Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311 When Was Jesus Crucified? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665 On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353 Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528 Where Did Sin Originate? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291 For The Non-beleivers Only, 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957 Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631 Has Atheism Got Principle? No https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180 It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940 Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682 Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268 Great Books About Non-belief https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935 Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137 Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928 Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155 Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099 Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975 Genesis Vs Genetics https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html Jesus Genealogy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616 £300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508 Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160 ==================================================================================================== |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Part Of The Bible Is Straight From Egyptian Mythology(plagiarism) by therationa(m): 11:38pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
Check out the two sites below; http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/ http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ Interesting |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Who Owns The Land, Is it the Isrealitse Or the Palestinians by therationa(m): 11:18pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
bawomolo:I agree, the way forward is find practical ways for both communities to live on that small piece of land. Rather than get at each other's throats for claims that are niether verifiable not sustainable. If religions was NOT a component of the dispute in this areas, I bet the problem might have been resolved by now. BTW, why are they fighting over land on which they do not expect to live long, given that they expect to be raptured into heaven? Just a thought. If they consider this veiw, then they might learn to live with each other better. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Part Of The Bible Is Straight From Egyptian Mythology(plagiarism) by therationa(m): 11:00pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
The similary between Christianity and the Pagan Mysteries (Osirus-Dionysus, Horus, Mythras, Iris etc) so disturbed some of the early Christian fathers, such as Justin Martyr (100 -165 CE) that some of them have to resort to the most bizarre of reason to explain the similarity to the Pagan cults. This is what the philosopher and satirist Celsus (c. 170 CE) had to say about early Christainity; "Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christains - and if so, how are they unique? Or are ours to be accounted myths ans theirs believed? What reasons do the christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs? In truth there is nothing at all unusual about what the Christians believes, except that the believe it to the exclusion of more comprehensive truths about God". The 2nd century Christian apologist, Justin Martyr, on being countered that Christianity had borrowed all its basic features from the existing cults of the Greco-Egyptico-Romano-Persion world, this is what he had to say; "Having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come and that the ungodly amongst men were to be punished by fire, the wicked spirit put forth many to be called Sons of God, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things that were said with regards to Christ were merely marvellous tales, like the things that were said by the poets". The father Tertullian also used the diabolical mimicry excuse to explain the close similarity between Christianity and the pre-existing cults at the time. This is Tertullian; "The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness o fsins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, andbrings in the symbol of resurrection. Let u stherefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who caopies certain things of those that be Divine". Is it not obvious how desperate the Christians had to go to explain away their wholesale copying of the cults of the Roman world and dressing them up as unique and their own. WHO ARE THE REAL PLAGIARIST? |
| Christianity Etc › When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven by therationa(op): 9:37pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
The follow NT chapters describe events leading up to and including the ascension of Jesus into heaven following his resurrection. I will urge you to read the carefully prior to the discussion below; [table] [tr][td]Mark 16[/td][td]Luke 24[/td][td]Act 1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?" 4But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed. 6"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' " 8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. ((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.)) 9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. 12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either. 14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." 19[b]After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. [/b]20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. [/td][td]1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " 8Then they remembered his words. 9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened. 13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him. 17He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?" They stood still, their faces downcast. 18One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?" 19"What things?" he asked. "About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see." 25He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 28As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. 29But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them. 30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" 33They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. 36While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." 40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence. 44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." 50[b]When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. [/b]51[b]While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. [/b]53And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God. [/td] [td]1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." 6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas 12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city. 13When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. 15In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry." 18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, " 'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, " 'May another take his place of leadership.' 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.[/td][/tr] [/table] I have already posted in a previous thread the idea that Mark 16: 9-20 is considered as an interpolation by the majority on NT scholars. For more information of scholarly opinion about these verses, check the link http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html. With that in view, the credibility of the asecension account in Mark is seriously damaged, nevermind the claim of inerrancy and inspiration. The account in Luke has Jesus staying with his apostle no more a period of 48 hours (or thereabouts) before ascending into heaven from a place near Bethany. However, in Acts, the writer (presumably Luke) gives the impression that Jesus was with his apostles 40 days after his resurrection before ascending into heaven, from within the vicinity of Jerusalem (for he instructed them not to travels outside of Jerusalem) So, my questions are: 1) How long was Jesus on earth after his resurrection before he was raised into heaven? 2) From which location was he raised into heaven? 3) Can we trust the NT to provide any reliable information about this character called Jesus? ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html When Was Jesus Born? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 [b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589 God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537 Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343 What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617 Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html How Is Salvation Achieved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632 Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426 Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340 Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311 When Was Jesus Crucified? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665 On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353 Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528 Where Did Sin Originate? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291 For The Non-beleivers Only, 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957 Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631 Has Atheism Got Principle? No https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180 It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940 Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682 Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268 Great Books About Non-belief https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935 Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137 Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928 Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155 Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099 Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975 Genesis Vs Genetics https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html Jesus Genealogy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616 £300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508 Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160 ==================================================================================================== |
| Christianity Etc › Re: When Was Jesus Crucified? by therationa(op): 8:16pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
Anybody knows when Jesus was crucufied? |
or plural: alamot ("עלמות"