₦airaland Forum

4Him:
here is the problem. If we havent learnt 1+1=2 why do you want to progress to 7*5=35?

If we havent determined whether God exists or not then what is the rationale crying about whether His bible is true or not?
You don't believe the christian God exists yet you go ahead lampooning His bible? isnt that hypocritical?

4HIM,

Whether God exists and whether the bible is his word are two VERY different questions. For instance Christians, Mormons, M-uslim, Jews, Hindus, etc all believe in the existence of God. But do you all believe in the same book as his word.

I am questioning the bible just as you would question the Qu'ran, or the m-uslim would question the bible.

OLAADEGBU:
To answer this briefly I will implore you to peruse the following quote sincerely:
Put Jesus to test today and receive His love into your heart for He has promised that as you do this He will reveal Himself to you John 14:21 and He will give you the Power to become a child of God John 1:12

This is the summary of the commandment of God: that we should love Him with the whole of our hearts, mind and strength and to love our fellows as ourselves. Jesus even simplified the second aspect by giving us the golden rule; that we should do to others what we want them to do to us Matthew 7:12

We can only do this by experiencing the new birth and establishing a daily, living relationship with Him by worshipping Him, hearing from Him (as you read the Bible, I suggest you start by reading from the gospel according to John), and praying or having sweet communion with Him.

This is not a response to the questions in the main post. Stay on the topic, please.

imhotep:
@therationa
If you are so discerning, why do you constitute the [b]insignificant [/b]minority

Please, stay on topic to expect a significant response from me.

4Him:
You are more than welcome, we've dealt with worse people before.
Like JeSoul said . . . we are not crazy neither do we have 32 pairs of arms . . . your childish attitude of opening up 90 threads a minute any time is ridiculous. Everyone is tired of the fact that each time they try to engage you in a progressive discourse on one thread u promptly disappear to open another.

we can't keep up!

4HIM, Thanks for you support.

Like I said in my last post, I hate it when posters do not stay on topic. It is simply irritating. Take for instance the post for OLAADEGBU a couple of minutes ago on the "How is Salvation Achieved" thread. How am I supposed to respond to that. He just avoided the questions I posted altogether. Hope you get my point.

BTW, I apologise for giving the impression that I was avoiding dealing with the threads and for troubling you guys with so many threads and questions. I was simply doing this to not allow the issues to all tangle up together as was going to be the case in the first two threads.

JeSoul:
who says you're no longer welcome?

what we're tired of is your incessant, unrelenting obsession with discrediting christianity. We're tired of you posting millions of topics and never staying long enough to thoroughly engage in discussion & respond to the answers that are given to you, before running off to start a new confused topic.

You are welcome, and people will embrace and discuss with you. But you must stop this madness! or else you won't find anyone that pays any attention to you.

Nice to known am still welcome here. Thankx.

There is a simple reason why I opened many threads. I had noticed that there are some individuals (notably Imhotep, SysUser) here who would snooker every single thread into a God Exist/Not Exist debate. The first two threads I started were taken down that route, much as I tried to bring it back to the main thrust of the post.

So to forestall that happening again, I have opened threads in as many issues as I am aware of so that we could discuss each of these issues independently on a separate thread. There is no point having a thread that wanders about without reach some sort of informed finality.

In fact, I have not abandoned any threads that I started when the thread has stayed on topic.

It this thread getting anywhere at all. There seems to be a lot of copy/paste of very technical material. Can the originator summarise the evidence so far and put it in the main body of the post? Otherwise, this might run and run with any real results.

That would be much appreciated.

Thankx

It appears this one is a hard question. With a clue provided by Bawomolo, looks like we already know the fate of Hitler. So you are welcome to strike Hitler off your deliberations.

Having amending the main post to add some stuff about the Treaty of Tripoli, which state that the US was NOT founded on Christian principles.

KAG:
Just a minor quibble: it's not proof, it's evidence.

KAG,

Correction accepted. Will amend accordingly. Thankx

Bawomolo,

Thankx for those great pictures

I get the sense that I am no longer welcome on this Religion Forum. I will like to hear from you guys.

Should I go OR should I stay?

Why all this vitriol towards me?. I am simply questioning your beliefs, NOT you as people.

Humans and primates (apes) once had a common ancestor about 4 million years ago. That this is the case resides in the genes of humans and primates.

Evidence 1: Human Chromosome No. 2.

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes while primates have 24 pairs. Now, if humans and primates are descended from the same ancestor, why the difference? Has a chromosome gone missing? If this were the case, the human line would have been defective and died out immediately. The only feasible explanation is that a pair of chromosome would have gotten fused in the human lineage.

So scientist went looking for a fused chromosome in the human genome. And they found it on Chromosome No. 2. It was formed by the fusion of the 2nd and 3rd chromosomes of the common ancestor chromosomes. This can only be explained in evolutionary terms.

(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8edyoZFW-Lg)

Evidence 2: Vitamin C synthesis

There is a lot of evidence that explain the absence of humans and primate to synthesise Vit C naturally. In fact, I am on shaky ground here technically. Refer to http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex2 for a detailed an better explanation.

[s][/s]

What do christians think is the fate that awaits the following people; Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine and Tomás de Torquemada?

If any of these people had sincerely converted to Christianity on their dead bed (seconds before dying), what fate do you think awaits them?

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

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What are the core tenets of christianity, without which one cannot claim to be a christian? And how must one live in order to guarantee the everlasting life promised by christianity?

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html

What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617

Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Anybody on this forum heard of THE DOCUMENTARY HYPOTHESIS? Very interesting indeed. Please, guys I think you should read up on it.

tis one too no day hard-oh.

Abi, tis one no day hard-o. Make u try answer-am oh.

How come there are no answers yet to this one?

You guys (christians and m-uslims ) have had it easy for far too long, propagating your falsehoods to simple, vulnerable, credulous and gullible people. It is about time you are challenged by the discerning minority who can no longer stand by and see the world dragged yet again into another Dark Age.

I have made a small "addition" (pun intended ) to the original wording of my post. I wonder what fate awaits me for having altered the text.

C'mon guys. This thread is going stale. Are you guys/gals avoiding it?

imhotep:
@therationa
The entire book of 1 John can be deleted from the NT without any effect on Christianity as a whole or Trinity in itself. So this comma question is neither here nor there. When will you learn to ask the right questions?

Imhotep, thank you thank you thank you thank you. Many many many thanks.

You have just made my point for me with these word. Christianity does not rely on verifiable facts. It relies on TRADITION which itself changes with time.

So there was a time when these words were NOT in 1 John 5: 7 - 8. The existing tradition at the time did not like the absence of words specifically called for the TRINITY, and inserted these words. So you see Christianity is driven by tradition. Just like the christian practices of today's christians are NOT the same as those of 2nd or 3rd century christians. Just like the christian practices of Nigerians are different from those of Brazilians.

BTW, I thought the ENTIRE bible was inspired. What does the very last words of the bible say Rev. 22: 18? Read it.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

4Him:
spare me therationa, all these over the position of a comma?
The early bible writers where not linguistic neither did they have the luxury of microsoft word with its spell check facility. Please mistakes are bound to occur.
It is incredible how low people can get to discredit the bible.

You've had 29 threads to do that and u have failed miserably to anyone that we shld take all these "errors" seriously.

4HIM,

You do not understand the meaning of the word [b]comma [/b]as used in my other thread in Johannine Comma. It does not mean a punctuation sign check the meaning out yourself.

4HIM

In fact, I have just googled P52 and found it as belonging to my local library (John Ryland University of Manchester University)

4Him:
I have extracted it and hereby tender unreserved appologies.

Can we please move on to the meat of this topic please?

4HIM, many thanks and apologies graciously accepted.


As to the meat of the topic, what I was trying to convey was that we should not really take every single word in the Book at face value. Some of these text have a lot of problems with them, which are not widely known by the general public.

Now, you may dispute that, but you will have to go dispute that with the scholar who work with these material daily. Right here on my desk, I have copy a copy of one of such persons and I read about this all the time. In fact my local library (Manchester University) contains the earliest known version of the manuscript of John (I think it is called P52) and I use to go past it when I used to attend the library regularly. So I have been interested in this kind of stuff for some time.

4HIM

Nevermind. We all make mistakes. Apologies accepted.

4HIM,

You have not retracted your accusation of liar. I think this is unacceptable behaviour. Why did you call me a liar?

4Him:
We too are looking for "well informed discussion" rather than irrelevant quotes from your fellow athiests, 29 threads in less than 3weeks and a dishonest approach to issues.

you can't pretend to be looking for "well informed discussion" when you havent even read the bible yourself. A very good examples is your thread on human sacrifice. You quote verse 11 of that chapter as proof that the bible commands human sacrifice however verse 11 is wholly dependent on your understanding of verse 10!

Am sorry; you are wrong yet again. The relevant sections were:

Lev 27: 29
and Judges 11

What do you mean by verse 11? Of which book/chapter/verse?

4Him:
so essentially why did you post that text? I am also looking for "well informed discussion" rather than mindless copying and pasting.

Here we go.

Pardon me. This is the first time I have done a wholesale copy and paste. It is really not my style, but I thought the website was very well written and contained all the things I wanted conveyed but could not in my own words.

4Him:
this is no issue at all except as an excuse for hypocrites out to malign the bible.

I mentioned on another thread (which u conveniently ignored as has been your habit) that the scriptures we have today were constructed from ancient manuscripts.
Now none of these manuscripsts exist as a single copy. Several jewish sects made copies of these books . . . i mention the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1949 . . . hundreds of years after the bible as we know it was already in printed form.
We know that for example . . . there were 18 copies of the book of Isaiah, 39 copies of the pslams, 33 copies of Deuteronomy, 24 copies of the book of Genesis e.t.c.

Now due to age and conditions of these parchments . . . several of them would contain missing portions that can only be reconstructed by comparing ALL the copies together.
That is why some ancient copies of the bible may contain some portions of the scriptures not found in others. It all depends on which manuscripts you are using for translation.

Surprisingly ALL the copies of the bible found among the dead sea scrolls completely agree with the bible as we know it. One of the most surprising to me and what confirmed my belief in the bible was the book of Enoch . . .

The bible mentions the book of Enoch - Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Now if u search the entire bible you wont find anywhere that Enoch made this prophecy, infact the bible says so little about Him that we wonder where Bro Jude could have gotten this so-called prophecy.

Like you too i had my own doubts UNTIL i came across a copy of the book of Enoch discovered among the dead sea scrolls . . .
Here is what it had to say . . . Enoch 1: 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

I must point out though that other copies of the book of Enoch had been found earlier than those of the dead sea scrolls.

Notice the near perfect quote that is in Jude compared to that in Enoch.

It may mean little to you, you may even scoff at it (Ps 1) but to me it is somewhat proof of the infallibility of the bible.

I posted this essentially to have people know the history of the text and the controversy around these text. I was not being polemical here. That is why the post contains little of my own words.


BTW, I agree about what you say about ancient manuscripts and the like.

The text that follows is taken from http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html. Just read it and make you own decision. If fact, why not read Revelation 22:18-19 before reading the text below;

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

Now read the text below this line, bearing in mind Rev 22: 18-19

==============================================================================

The Johannine Comma
(1 John 5:7-


The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament. In these editions the verses appear thus (we put backets around the extra words):

ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες [ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ] τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.

The King James Version, which was based upon these editions, gives the following translation:

For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts. In the Clementine edition of the Vulgate the verses were printed thus:

Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant [in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. 8 Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra:] spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt.

From the Vulgate, then, it seems that the Comma was translated into Greek and inserted into some printed editions of the Greek text, and in a handful of late Greek manuscripts. All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. For example, the English Standard Version reads:

For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.





We give below the comments of Dr. Bruce M. Metzger on 1 John 5:7-8, from his book, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed. (Stuttgart, 1993).


After μαρτυροῦντες the Textus Receptus adds the following: ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ. That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

(A) External Evidence.

(1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript. The eight manuscripts are as follows:

* 61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early sixteenth century.
* 88: a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the fourteenth-century codex Regius of Naples.
* 221: a variant reading added to a tenth-century manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
* 429: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
* 629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
* 636: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Naples.
* 918: a sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
* 2318: an eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.

(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.

(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (through the mention of three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards it is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the Old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars. (For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)

(B) Internal Probabilities.

(1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.

(2) As regards intrinsic probability, the passage makes an awkward break in the sense.

For the story of how the spurious words came to be included in the Textus Receptus, see any critical commentary on 1 John, or Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, pp. 101 f.; cf. also Ezra Abbot, "I. John v. 7 and Luther's German Bible," in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays (Boston, 1888), pp. 458-463.

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Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

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