₦airaland Forum

lagerwhenindoubt: @teminoni and @ijawkid, I expected you will use Biblical Scripture (and Faith ) to support your arguments as there is enough to prove the point you are trying to get across without resorting to human reasoning and weak physics.

So let us work this Biblical Whodunit shall we Please pay attention.

Resurrection Physics according to the New Testament
The 1st Resurrection in the New Testament Bible (Bringing the Dead to Life) is the Resurrection of Lazarus in the Gospels (John 11:1-46) in which Jesus brings Lazarus back to life 4 days after his burial in Bethany. Jesus declared following doubts and regrets from Lazarus' sister "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" We all know the EPIC scene in which Jesus cried out in a loud voice -LAZARUS!! COME FORTH upon which brother Laz emerged from the tomb in his burial attire and a foul stench from not bathing for 4 days The Bible further confirms the very much Fleshy Lazurus in John 12:9 Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.

Jesus himself affirms that he was Flesh and Bones after his Resurrection in Luke 24:37 "But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

My point is Jesus' had His Real (Resurrected) Physical body and He ate food and talked with His disciples, showed them His wounds etc, He also rose into heaven in the same way. If He did not do this in actual fact, and it was all 'spiritual' then the opponents would have produced His body and disproved the resurrection.

For those who ask the question why Jesus could walk through walls and not open doors like normal humans - it is hereby debunked when we realize that Philip was transported 30 miles instantly in Acts 8 and Jesus was transported to the shore 2 miles away Lukek 16:21" They were willing therefore to receive Him into the boat; and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going

Jesus further stressed a fact in John 20:17 that gives us a clue to what happened to his Physical Body "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

This tells us that Jesus needed to pass through a critical process necessary for his Physical body to be translated into one capable of entering the Heavenly plane known as the 3rd Heaven

The Concept of Quickening
Now about the part where Christians for lack of a line of argument opt to place Jesus as both Spirit and Physical, here is what Pastor Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 35-37 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die; and that which thou sowest thou sowest not that body that shall be"

He further goes on to clarify the concept of Spiritual Quickening that Jesus went through further to flying up into Heaven before a large crowd

Corinthians 15:"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

In Summary
1: Jesus died and rose on the 3rd day in his physical body no different before he died
2: Jesus went through a translation process to allow his new body into heaven - at this point he appeared to hundreds of followers before ascending into heaven in his new body

lagerwhenindoubt: Not to seem disparaging of the Man Jesus (my favorite Bible personality of Social Dissidents after Samson ). from all indications and 3rd party reports, Jesus appeared (seemingly out of nowhere) to his disciples in a physical body that could be felt and interacted with, he indeed supped at some point and walked on physical surfaces. In other instances he prevented his followers from touching him, indicating that he could actually be felt physically if he did not prevent this touchy-touchy business. whether ethereal or corporeal substance, i cannot tell but from majority accounts, the later.

Back to your pointer - Did i hear some one say how come people were able to see him after his resurrection? it is a sharp departure from the point of whether he is physically in Heaven or not. From popular lore we can see Spirits and Humans can we not? The real question is whether Jesus was a Spirit with Physical Fleshly properties or a Human with Spiritual Characteristics (now you have messed-up my thinking )

Nimshi: Maximus85: I have asked eight questions above, and offered that you answer according to your own priority list of thise questions.

I am not surprised at your boast that you JWs are 'trained teachers'; when the same doctrine is drummed into faithfuls at several meetings every week, and the 'groupspeak' is elevated to real discussion, plus the illusion of an in-house school, it is easy to make JWs feel special. Of course, they go out to unsuspecting people, claiming to 'preach', yet, it is clear that everything you say must be sanctioned from a certain country (you know which). Your religion is dangerous, even though you may not know it. And I hint/warn you in advance that attempting to answer any four of the questions I have posed in detail will unmask your religion for what it is.

Someone up here asked why the hatred the JWs have for the Catholics; you responded with 'you need proof'; this is cheeky. Just type 'Catholic' into your WT CD, and find the relevant quotes. What is surprising is that the Jehovah's Witnesses are hypocrites of the worst kind in the matters in which they criticise the Catholic church the most: child abuse and idolatory.

OLAADEGBU: I thank you for your response to my post to you: my words were a bit harsh; but you show yourself a better fellow with your response. I apologise for the harsh words, and of course: I welcome the questions you're asking of this religious sect claiming to be the only true Christians.

OLAADEGBU: Let's see how your Watch Tower magazine responded to the question whether the Watchtower Society has claimed to be God's prophet.

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? …He had a "prophet" to warn them. This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. …Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" —The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197

http://4jehovah.org/images/stories/downloads/jehovahs_witness/prophecy/wt-4-1-1972-p197.pdf

Note the underlined sentences in the pdf. and see how it sharply contrasts with your position.

OLAADEGBU: Fair enough. Let me give you extracts from yor Awake magazine when it attempted to answer this question.

OLAADEGBU: Good question. If you notice, Jesus Christ at times speaks in His humanity and at other times in His divinity. Biblically and positionally if you know what I mean. His is both the Son of God and the Son of man, He can speak as both at different times.

Nimshi: Maximus85: it is quite brave of you to come up here to defend your religion.

I have some questions for you.

1) Why is 1914 very important to your religion?

2) What is the disposition of your religion to child abuse; 'child abuse' being the satinised expression for the (sexual) rape of children.

3) What is the the disposition of your religion to the donation of human blood?

4) Who is the founder of your religion?

5) Who are the current leaders of your religion?

6) What is the belief of your religion regarding who will be saved at Armageddon?

7) Why do your leaders 'encourage' people who work in your missions not to have children?

8') On what dates has your religion predicted the end of the world?

I have more questions, but I give you the liberty to start with any of the ones above, according to your own priority list (I inform you in advance that this latitude to start with what you think is important has a purpose; may your God, Jehovah, be with you as you answer these questions, and my his Holy Spirit assist you in good measure).

.

OLAADEGBU: I laugh in Greek.

MyJoe: Another reasonable response. Just a little correction: it is the person disputing or rejecting a reference that does the checking and points out what is unfounded. Anyone reading that extract up there will accept the references as genuine if you don't do that.

Maximus85: Maybe i used a wrong Language. But the fact remains that nobody, i mean nobody, including Jesus Christ can tell of the time when the end will come. So how can we come out and post a date.
As for the references, for you to accept a reference, it will be justified to see the original article. I didn't choose to be a Jehovah's Witness overnight, i checked through and i was convinced. We based all our teachings on the Bible. There's no set date for the end of this system of things in the bible. You can visit our website www.jw.org and check our publication bank.

MyJoe: I was enjoying you till I read this. In fact, you almost fall my hand. Nothing in that wiki extract is unfounded. Not one. You will note it is well referenced. Please read it again and write a befitting response.

MyJoe: I think this is a brilliant handling of the matter.

Rossikk: I've been thinking about this story of the Jesus character ascending up 'into heaven' before onlookers.

Think about that carefully. It's the most crazy idea isn't it?

For starters, the implication is that heaven is an actual physical location 'up there', like on some distant planet. But everything we know about the afterlife or spirit world indicates that it's a different spiritual dimension, as opposed to a different physical location. Thus one can only go to heaven by shedding one's physical body via death, and assuming the spiritual or ethereal one that allows one to dwell in heaven. One cannot enter heaven with a physical body. Surely! Thus the idea of 'Jesus' ascending up into heaven before onlookers is most absurd, even by the crazy standards of the Jewish book of fairytales called the bible, isn't it?

buda atum: M. James says:

A impressionable young atheist was having an attack of conscience and started questioning his faith in science so he wrote to a well-know atheist and asked him for some advice about living out his beliefs as an atheist. The young atheist received this reply to his question 'How can I be an effective atheist?'

1. Make sure your main focus is on Christians. You can 'touch' on other groups to appear even-handed, but ensure you are careful to make Christians your constant target; you don't want to get killed in a Jihad, do you? So only 'mention' the others such as Islam but then say that there is no difference between radical Muslims and 'fundamentalist' Christians.

2. Remember that you are looking for faults in other religions (Christians) not trying to defend yours so do not try to prove atheism! Remember, it's much easier to destroy than build up.

3. When referring to atheists always use power-filled terms like 'intelligent, educated, thinkers, strong minded and independent.'

4. Ensure you call Christians childish degrading names like, pathetic air-heads, pointless God-bother-er's, deluded bible kissers and insult them with statements which include the terms like ignorant, clueless, uneducated. The goal here is to provoke and frustrate the Christian to the point they become angry, then, you can then claim they are a hypocrite for not being 'loving like Jesus.'

5. Always talk about just being a good person remembering that, 'good' is relative to each people and culture, just like cannibals who say 'I really enjoyed eating Bill last night, he was really 'good', or paedophiles saying 'they love little Janet, she was so 'good' or Hitler saying that killing Jews is 'good.' You are allowed to define 'good' however you would like because there is no higher authority to define what 'good' is. No one can set the objective moral standard as that would put them in the place of thinking they are 'god.'

6. Be sure to set your own moral standards and compass very, very, very low so that you'll never look like a hypocrite in public. The lower the better.

7. Be as argumentative, obnoxious, loud, sarcastic and verbal as possible - there is no need to make sense or use logic in your arguments - just keep arguing.

8. Use words like 'straw-man,' 'circular reasoning,' 'ad hominem,' 'fallacy,' 'red herring' and 'non sequiturs' against any argument which reveals the false claims of atheism whether you understand those terms or not.

9. Never answer any justified question directly but quickly change the subject to make a completely different point. If you're asked why you keep changing the subject just repeat this step as necessary.

10. Always bring up examples like the spaghetti monster, Zeus, and Santa Claus to prove that if you must believe in one God then you have to believe in all of them, right?!

11. Always ask for 'evidence' for the existence of God but never accept anything presented to you especially when you are told that God is a Spirit so you can not perceive Him with the physical senses or with any physical equipment. Also ignore the reply that 'God is God and he does not need to 'prove' himself to his creation, we are to answer to Him, He does not answer to us!' At the end of a discussion remind them that all you needed was some type of 'evidence' for God.

12. Use the Christian crusades, the Salem witch hunts, and the Inquisition which happened hundreds of years ago to 'prove' how bad 'religion' is for the world.

13. Use steps 7 through 9 to get away from any historical facts of all the good that the various Christian charities have done around the world through the centuries.

14. Express disinterest and laugh out loud at the question "Isn't it amazing that Christians continue to preach love and forgiveness to the world given the historical fact atheists have committed the most ongoing blatant atrocities against Christians. Shouldn't these Christians, 'who you claim are the problem,' in retribution, have wiped atheists from the face of the earth for the crimes atheists have committed against Christians, rather than continue to preach love, acceptance and tolerate you.

15. Blindly ignore any questions about millions of Christians being killed by atheists in the last 200 years, but if questions persist claim that this was NOT done 'in the name' of atheism ,  which makes it alright. Failing this, refer to steps 7 through 9, this should get you past any awkward questions about atheists who are guilty of crimes against humanity, human genocide and ethnic cleansing.

16. Remember to call yourself a "free-thinker" and "open-minded" but ensure you do not practice what you preach with such 'virtues' when it comes to Christianity. Being open-minded with Christians is not an option available to the atheists as this would open a can of worms we do not want to get into, you must understand that you are not 'free-to-think' that 'there is a God.'

17. Try to laugh out loud or make some disparaging noise every time a Christian makes a statement about what they believe, even if you don't think it is funny or you don't know what they are talking about or you may think they have a good point just try to make them look stupid with your laugh or disrespectful noise.

18. Claim that atheism is for intelligent people who are rooted in "rational, reasonable common sense" thinking even though you can not provide any 'rational, reasonable common sense' explanation for the existence of matter or the cause of the ignition of 'life' or our existence, ignore the fact that less than 10% of the human population claim to be atheists and then use steps 7 through 9 to get away from the question: "what does that say about the other 90% of humanity?"

19. Confess to everyone that you were once a Christian but you saw that all Christians were just hypocrites and realised that reasonable scientific, rational, logical investigation is the only way to truly understand the world we live in.
Note: Ignore the hypocrisy in your own life when you pray in troubled times!

20. Refuse to accept or believe anything in the Bible because it was written by MEN.

21. Believe and quote other writings of MEN to prove that the Bible is wrong.
Note: completely ignore the inconsistency between steps 20 & 21

22. When referring to the Bible use the words 'myth,' 'fables,' 'fairytales,' 'ideas' and 'opinions' as often as possible.
Note: Ignore the question or use steps 7 to 9 to answer the question 'don't you believe your books and writings of science written by men just like we believe our Bible which was written by men?"

23. Only use the Bible as the authority when it will advance the atheist religion and will contribute to the atheist dogmas and doctrines. Ignore the question 'You have quoted the bible as evidence, so if the bible is true in one place the entire bible must be true, so what about the scripture that says, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN or THE LORD IS GOOD AND HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER or WHERE GOD REVEALS HIS MERCIFUL NATURE WHEN HE SENT JONAH AND SPARED THE EVIL CITY OF NINEVEH?'

24. Only quote the Bible verses that put God in a bad light, make sure every scripture quoted makes God look like a mean, unfair judge and never ever allow anyone to quote scriptures which show Him in the positive light of a loving heavenly father.

25. Tell everyone you have read the Bible and that you understand what it teaches whether you have or have not, even if you have only read the parts which support your argument and the atheistic religion, you have still 'read the bible,' right!?

26. Refer to step 7 through 9 when once you have stated that the problem in the world is religion, but it is then pointed out to you that atheism is a religion its self with it's own evangelical preachers who preach their own doctrines based on their own bible called 'The origins of the species.'

27. Reject all notions that you live by faith even though you must put your faith in the writings of your own atheist high priests and gurus like Darwin, Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and Atkins and any other book that supports your 'beliefs.' Yes we put our faith in pilots, cars, food, doctors, evolution, and the next chair that you sit in but ignore this obvious flaw in our doctrine as well.

28. Make the claim that you only have one life and don't want to waste it on religion, then ignore your own hypocrisy by living out your own self-serving religion of atheism.

29. If your conscience begins to bother you because of moral guilt you can numb it with arrogance, self-deception, self- importance, judgement of the 'religious' (Christians) people, delusions of NO coming judgement and if this fails try some drugs, alcohol, sex, rape, murder whatever you feel like, remember, 'good' is relative and you only have one life, so live it, best of all there is no hell, right?

30. If doing the drugs and stuff does not appeal to you and you want to appear as a 'morally' upstanding person of the community, don't do the all those things but never let go of your self righteous arrogance and pride. It is this pride that will get you through many a hard times when you are struggling with a question of conscience and of your atheistic faith.

errr,  ummm ,  just in a final note, you never know, so just is case, every day ,  thank God for the free-will he has given you to express your religion of atheism as-you-see-fit, there just maybe hell to pay but ignore that reality and replace it with your own atheistic reality ,  for now, any-way, maybe?!

Deep Sight: Addittionally, there is a much stricter standard applied to any comment that criticizes Islam.

davidylan: I'm not disagreeing with you, just highlighting the glaring hypocrisy in your post.

Ubenedictus: Dear truth is light it seems u are trying to make me 'feel good' if u were, mission successful. hey! Hey! Hey! Slow down d bible is an authority for me but it is not my only authority, it is d word of God so i can say 'it is my strenght'. Besides i think d reason u hate d 'trinity' is because u dont understand it or u can reconcile it with ur other perception of God. Whatever it is i do respect ur opinion even though i may not accept it or may totally reject it. I would also expect u to be straightforward.
and with ur spirit.

plaetton: I would expect you to say that I'm wrong and then show how.
Won't you?

plaetton: These are scientific premises. Although scientists can be a somewhat dogmatic in their reluctance to consider and evaluate non-physical, non-testable and therefore non-verifiable phenomena,Scientific precepts can hardly be regarded as dogma because these can be amended or abandoned alltogether when new evidence is presented and verified.

Ubenedictus: temper is not about who inspired u, temper is subjective to ones temperament, it is controlled and hardly extinguished, sometimes it is a very good thing. And arguing religious matters is usually fraustrating. I totally understand.
Peace

Ubenedictus: easy! Now u are insulting.

im not, his perspective of d trinity is good and solid, if God has been a lover beford d word was created, if love is d essence of God and God is love, then d father must has a beloved from all eternity, simple logic drawn frm scriptures.
easy! Easy! My bible tells me that d strong must bear with d weak, those who have a better temper should bear with those who temper arent so good not insult them. I think the insultin attitude becos of his temper is unchristian.
Peace and divine blessing unto u.

Delafruita: did they also receive the "breath of life" from yahweh through the nostrils?

Logicbwoy: The breath of life could be anything...eg oxygen......keep peddling nonsense

Delafruita: and then tell us where the mind,conscience reside.in the body,soul or spirit?
or perhaps the body-soul-spirit is just another triumvate akin to the father-son-spirit triumvate

Delafruita: which of the oceans did you base your analogy on?

musKeeto: Oga mi, ur saying something similar to okeyxyz..

Faith is the evidence of things not seen..
You all are guilty of trying to twist the meaning of faith in order to validate your delusions (no offence intended).

If a young man speaks to someone imaginary everyday, do we call that faith or madness? If faith, why? If madness, how do you prove he is mad? Won't you 'conviction' that he's mad be based on a comparison of his behaviour with what is generally regarded as 'sane' human behavior?

Therein lies the crux of my argument. If faith is the evidence of things not seen, then a lot of craziness currently exhibited in this world could be defined as faith..
Isn't it by faith that men flew planes into the WTC, hoping to meet 72 virgins?
Isn't it by faith that buzugee believes in his own interpretation of the Bible?
Is it by faith that you respond to the username 'muskeeto' believing it to be human, not a bot?

Ubenedictus: he didnt say d holyspirit is a God, he said d holyspirit is God

my dear u are dancing round in circles.

now u are talking crap.
Peace