₦airaland Forum

Sagamite: Amsorry?

So you can't show that children raised by married parents are better balanced than children raised by co-habiting couples?

Can you make a simple deduction then that marriage and procreation is an irresponsible act then since:

- Half of marriages fail.
- Children raised in broken relationships suffer and are not balanced.
- So marrying to procreate is actually irresponsible then since we are responsible for the best upbringing for kids.
- It is even more irresponsible if you do not make the right due diligence to protect this and depended of faith.

Surely you would not put your child on a plane with 50% chance on crashing, why create them when you have 50% of damaging them.

Co-habition is more fragile and does not manifest all the attendant benefits of marriage. Also
- They are more likely to break up - and earlier
- Recieve less support from the co-habitees families

So to your posers
- per above, more co-habs fail than marriages, ergo children are more likely to suffer from breakups in this arrangement
- nope, single and co-hab fams fare worse. Marriage - in lieu of a copncise rebuttal - is still the best arrangement.
- when you understand what needs to be done, due dilligence, whilst not a formality, need not be a long thing. And I still had great faith.
- We have thrashed this point ad-nauseum. Marriage is not a 50:50 proposition if entered into properly

Sagamite, stop fighting the inevitable.

Ondo girl huh? No gainsaying, they make great wives. And via e-introduction. That may well be a first. So long as we get the job done sha!

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Sagamite: This does not show me children raised by married parents are better balanced than children raised by co-habiting couples.

Please show me that. Or show me that part in the links you put that does.

Don't show me children raised in broken relationships are more likely to be less balanced.

Show me children raised by married parents are better balanced than children raised by co-habiting couples.

I wait.

A simple deduction given that co-habitation is more fragile and does not have all/the full benefits of marriage.

But please read this and note the study cited.

http://upallnight5210..co.uk/2012/04/reader-response-truth-about.html

Sagamite: Before I address the rest, please show me the empirical evidence.

Ok, I'm coming. For now I'll leave you with the following;

1. All things being equal kids thrive better in a traditional two (birth) parent family, with the parents properly modelling their roles.
2. Co-habiting couples are less likely to stay together than married couples
3. Where there is abuse, one of the parents is usually not a birth parent.


Right, I'm back, start here - the benefits kick-in literally from birth;
http://narth.com/docs/gendercomplementarity.html

Others;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9139483/Marriage-is-best-for-raising-children-Government-says.html#
http://www.christianpost.com/news/federal-report-confirms-nuclear-family-best-for-childrens-health-48997/

chaircover: TV you see now!!!!

With all your grammer, it just took one sentence of mine to totally change saggy's mindset

You are invited to the wedding

As long as we get there I am happy. Marriage has made me a team player. I'ma tell wifey to block out the day/weekend/whole month of celebration.

Now, about HaraKiri....

Sagamite: Who said he preaches or sells marriage?

He preaches achievements.

I have outlined my thoughts on hypocrisy and fraud. Lets leave it at that. We don't truly know the gist of this bobo and only referred to him in passing. he's not the thrust of this thread, so lets leave him.

Sagamite: Apart from the ridiculous impracticality of all men blah blah blah, what makes you think it is under only a "marriage" arrangement kids can be raised balancely. So kids raised by co-habiting parents are not balanced?.

So we agree on the impracticality and the inbalance "tapping-ass" as an alternative to marriage would cause.

Yes, co-habiting can lead to well-balanced kids, but empirical evidenc shows that it does not do so as successfully as marriage.

Sagamite: And your point is?

This like telling me some apples are red and some are green. Like telling me Beijing is the capital of China.

What I need to know is how is not willing to get married irresponsible? How not taking an option to marry denote someone is irresponsible.?.

I've outlined this already. To be unmarried is not in itself irresponsible. Marriage ushers in a covenanted level of commitment and self-sacrifice, thus a deeper level of responsibility.

To be unmarried (or married) and an ass-tapper is grossly irresponsible.

Sagamite: So who is an unmarried man irresponsible to? Who does he owe a duty to that he is not undertaking for your like to label him irresponsible?

Per above, society, the "tappees" and believe it or not, himself. If he subscribes to the tapping approach.

Sagamite: No 1, who made marriage or how was marriage made?

You are well aware that many subscribe to the faith-based notion of marriage. The legal codifying of marriage is not actually necessary, as it adds nothing to it. And biblically, it is presented as first and formost a civil not a religious rite.

Sagamite: No 2, do you want me to dig up the historical posts where you said people should enter based on faith, where you said your due diligence was based on one date and where you said based on your due diligence you know actions she would never take in the future? Do you? Do you want to waste my time digging it up or prefer to fess up?

Be my guest. I have remained true to my word. I met my wife. Fancied her like mad. Angled a date, knowing she appeared a great fit. I was circumspect and dilligent for 3 months. Proposed, planned and performed the wedding rites. Progress continues to be made in a mutually loving, satisfying and fruitful union. It's cake when you understand.

Sagamite: No 3, if you are changing your tune, please entertain me by telling me what you think successgul marriage and the due diligence to achieve this success should be based on. What due diligence did you do before marrying your wife after a few short months??

A common worldview is always a good start. Shared background helps, but is not essential. Fully understand any differences and see if they could be dealbreakers. There are loads of things both little and large to consider and I'd be happy to discuss point by point if you open thread.

Essentially you have to be prepared as a person, in the right type of mindset and understand what attributes and qualities are desirable in a good wife. As opposed to your personal wish list, where accomodations can be made.

Sagamite: Most likely "Hell fcking yeah". It just wouldn't be me.

If her terms (which I would also listen to) does not favour me or is not in my self-interest based on my rationality judgements, she can "bye, bye, odaabo". I am not a Real Man, I am the Ultimate Man. A real man might agree to whatever she says, an ultimate man is not scared of saying fck off when required.

Some of your blind spots are in plain sight.

No matter how worthy, if you are both not working from a position of mutual self-interest - it can be that way you know? - you'll never strike the bargain or the right bargain. You are unilaterally looking out for you. Marriage is first and foremost looking out - being responsible - for the other. A "my way or the highway" approach means you will be walking a lonely path. You simply don't get it do you? Do you really consider yourself open to marriage?

- See why some of us faith loonies like to work with a divinely given stricture which is altogether flawless and true. Unbiased toward either party?

Sagamite: I am worthy of a good time and a happy life. Whatever framework provides that, based on the adjustment to dynamics I cannot control, I would choose.?

You are yet to show me a framework better than marriage.
In fact all you have come up with is revolving door ass-tapping which doesn't sound like the kind of thing that should emanate from a gargantuan intellect such as yours?

Your fear raises it's head agian. Can you guarantee anything in this life? And contracts are not guarnatees.

Sagamite: One thing, for sure, I do not intend to do is to herd-mentally compromise my future happiness so I adhere to some societal and historical norms to please others.

A lemming like appraoch is the last thing I would suggest. As would doing it to please others. Understand it and embrace it - if you choose and for yourself. I have repeatedly asked you to outline your own construct and one that would serve society as a whole better than marriage. You've presented "Tappimony". Please employ your colossal intellect to the betterment of mankind.

Sagamite: Why? Because others and even those that have died are not intellectually at me level. They are not worthy of being at a level to judge me, I am the one that should be judging them.

Judge you ke? A successful union speaks for itself. Construct one based on your intellectual prowess and let us see. If it beats the marriage ideal, you will be well hailed!

Sagamite: How can I be worried about a judgement of a foool that says you don't become a big boy until you marry. I am way too fcking smart to be worried about such a person's judgement of my actions.

I see where JohnDoe was coming from, although I am not in total agreement, truth is he has a point.

Sagamite: Baba God is the one that gave me the fine brain noni.

before baba God gave the world Sagamite, He gave us marriage.

Open the thread if you please. Otherwise I'd like to hear what inroads you have made. I don't want to be using dentures at your reception.

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Sorry for being a bit long-winded guys, but one of my stated goals on NL is to see Sagamite married well and in fine fashion !

Sagamite;

1. If one preaches marriage and cheats, such a one is a hypocrite. If one "sells" marriage and is an inverterate cheat, such a one is a fraud. If one preaches or sells marriages and makes a mistake. It happens, seek restoration and keep moving. Geddit?

2. How would it benefit society at large, if every man just decided to opt for a life of "tapping ass"? For a start, what would become of the family order for raising well balanced children? Do you appreciate how fractious gender relationships would become?

3. When you get "married" you covenant/commit to sacrificially caring for your spouse. Otherwise it becomes a personal choice if/when/how you do this. The latter is optional, the former is a commitment - respopnsibility!

4. The surgeon and president are responsible professionally, but irresponsible to their families. The West African leader is irresponsible professionally and to society, even though he may be a good husband and father. Irresponsibility is not all or nothing, or necessarily based on one aspect.

5. Marriage is not a "man-made" instritution. Men have sought to re-engineer and/or pervert it. But the ideal remains unsullied. I never said enter into it purely on faith. I knew she was wife material after 1 date. I still did my due dilligence. And no, I don't know what the future holds, but I do know what we both committed to. And to Whom we commit ourselves.

6. If you meet that "dream girl" harken to this; it won't be solely on "your terms", if you won't marry her someone else will!

7. You regaled us with your sterling list of qualities and attributes. Are you saying you are not worthy of a committed long-term relationship where even more delightful offspring are raised? Or you think having a carousel of casual of relationships, where children may or may not be involved, and where you may or not be fully involved in their raising is altogether more worthy of what you have to offer?

Quit posturing dude, time is of the essence.

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sashaa: fling?

Perhaps?

But one would have thought a proper introduction would be in order first? I mean, it's only polite.

This defies all protocol. Even animals have a good sniff first as a way of getting to know each other?

What is the world coming to?

Sagamite: If someone makes decent money and cannot manage his finances, he is irresponsible!

He is "fiscally" irresponsible is all we can conclude

Sagamite: HOW IS NOT BEING MARRIED IRRESPONSIBLE??

Ok, I’ll explain;
1. Being unmarried is not in and of itself irresponsible, but like I explained, being married ushers in a new and deeper level of responsibility.
2. It’s irresponsible – at a societal and individual level – for a man to enter into multiple/serial casual relationships with women (and yes married men can and do this to, they are even more irresponsible). More so, when this is compounded by offspring.

Sagamite: Are you irresponsible for not being in Afghanistan sacrificing yourself for someone else? You were the one that set that rubbish criteria for measuring responsibility? So YOU ARE irresponsible?

I am not personally responsible for the Afghan situation, nor in any way liable for it’s resolution.

Sagamite: Which irresponsible person have you seen the UN call to talk to the security council about immense, complex issues that leads to great loss of life?

Is such a person that is seen as a LEADING champion of the oppressed seen as irresponsible by the world as you claimed?

What rubbish are you chatting?

Explain to me how the world is seeing Clooney as irresponsible.

Firstly, I'm not speaking for the world, merely expounding my worldview/viewpoint.

Because one has a grasp of, insight into or expertise in an issue, does not indicate responsibility.

A highly skilled surgeon, responsible for carrying out intricate cranial operations and who has successfully done so numerous times over many years is found en-flagrante in a car park. Is he responsible?

A president, who is a highly regarded statesman and skilled diplomat, is found in a compromising position with a staffer. Is he responsible?

A West African head of state who regularly chairs and addresses ECOWAS/OAU and speaks at the UN, whilst bleeding his national treasury dry. Is he responsible?

Now to the main, the main.

1.
To plan a life devoid of commitment and responsibility in the sense of serenading a succession of nubile young women till departure. Is grossly irresponsible – and on so many levels. It’s also the height of selfishness and immaturity. Obviously taking covenant orders or the like varies this.
This is solely driven by your desire to sample without charge and your being able to do exactly as you please. Your unwillingness to fully and properly commit to the welfare of other/s. And willingly putting their welfare before yours.

2.
To base your understanding of marriage on what obtains around you and to decide to marry, not marry, slander marriage or seek to vary it on this basis is at best immature and in all likelihood fear driven. One is to understand and embrace marriage. Or of course simply opt out.
Basing your views on other peoples flawed character, faulty understanding and failed execution is just tragic.

Sagamite, you so obviously want to marry. You have frequently detailed what you are looking for (not that I necessarily get or agree with your criteria, but that’s fine).

Like I have often said, if marriage is crap, leave it or simply construct something of your own making, something that reflects your desire and find someone to co-opt into that arrangement?

Having said that, I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with marriage as originally instituted. One may have to delve foundationally to see that, but that is simply taking responsibility. We’d do that prior to entering into much lesser agreements. Having done, that it’s a question of finding someone of like desire, understanding and commitment.

Now, please present us with your bride. Good news is never too much!

Sagamite: Since Mckinsey and the Catholic Church do not market their failures, by your logic, they are frauds?

The Pope, according to your logic, is a massive fraud when he stands on that balcony and behaves like if the church only offers 'decent' love instead of highlighting their failures?.

Failure does not make one a fraud. Nor does success mean you are honest.

It's fraudulent if one pretends to be or practice one thing to make a sale/pitch, but in actual fact does not practice or believe in that thing. Or simply put to sell yourself or a product as doing/being, that which it doesn't/isn't.



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Erm...he's not her boyfriend

(Although I must confess I'm having difficulty classifying this one. It's not, FWB, it's not jump-off, it's not one-night stand. Oya young people, please help an old-timer out!)

N&I

Saga, in your rush to batter home your point, you miss context.

I work with lots of people who deliver. On projects, processes, objectives. They are responsible. But for some of those same people, their personal lives are a mess. Can't manage their finances or relationships. For some it's their health or diets.

Responsibility is in different contexts. We are discussing within the relationship/marriage/family context.

Having said that, an appearance at the UN, being an ambassador for UNICEF or adopting poor kids from 3rd world countries does not necessarily indicate responsibility. Likewise being an ace fundraiser. And certainly has no bearing in the context of this discussion.

It takes a level of maturity to take on the wellbeing and care of someone else. Sacrificially if need be. It's a responsibility. Again, same for raising kids.

No one is saying not marrying or raising kids makes one irresponsible - in context anyway - it just means they ahven't entered into that level of responsibility. And yes you can put others first if you are not married, but you are not covenanted to do so, and sacrificially if required at that.

And yes, for those that disdain marriage, selfishness as well as fear is often a key driver. For both genders.

Per your Bobo, notice I said "If".
Now generally on that same subject, failure to achieve is not the same as hypocrisy, as I rightly pointed out.


If McKinsey analyse 10 companies and the suggested strategy does not work for a few of them, that doesn not make them fraudsters.

Enron was successful for a time even with fraudulent practice, so why are you trumpeting here?

Distinguish between practice and strategy and blatant hypocrisy as opposed to instances of failure.

As for the church. lets not go there, but the way to God in the true/Biblical/Christian worldview is via Christ, not any man-made institution, Pope, G.O. or religious ritual. Religiosity often appears as faith and mimics some of it's manifestations, but is not the same thing.

Stop flogging this dead horse and otherwise seeking to deflect matta.

Go and bring your wife. Now, now!

I will come and support at your trad.

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harakiri: You brought up Madonna creating an impression of her being faded and done with meanwhile how many women her age still look fit, active or even good looking as she is? NONE! You attempted to paint her as a frustrated woman with on one to marry her but the reality is, she keeps getting more and more suitors and she uses and dumps them like trash when she is done because SHE CAN! The last guy i remember she got married to was in his twenties if i am not mistaken...that should tell you just how hot she is in the market. You would be lucky if you wife was one tenth as attractive as Madonna when she is in her fifties.

Beauty is as ever subjective. And your sweeping statement is laughable. There are women way older who are in much better nick than Madonna. Get a look at her cable like veins up front and you will run. Or perhaps the boob she exposed recently did it for you?

More and more suitors. AKA a succession of bendy backing singers. You call those suitors? Even she knows she'd never marry any of them. They are at best lust driven and casual liaisons.

So multiple baby fathers and failed marriages are ok because she is deemed "hot" by some.

Happy to do pix again. Post the one of your best ever babe and I will post my wife. You will pity your icon Madonna first and then yourself. I have seen the pix of the best Madonna at my wifes age and younger. Simply no contest. I kid you not.

harakiri: Actually, you must get her attention before starting the battle to win her hand.

But as she is so hot, marrying and divorcing at will is fine?

harakiri: "Hot" implies that the individual is of immense value in the dating field. I would have expected you to have understood that rather than make a desperate attempt in making a mountain out of thin air.

Dating field. We are talking suitability for marriage, but even in a dating sense, you honestly consider Madonna of "immense value"? Pray tell, in a "date without long-term comittment sense" what is it about her that is of value? Or what makes her hot. Even saga knows it's about the young and nubile. Mutton dressed as lamb.

harakiri: Marriage is a choice my friend. I am in my thirties and single but believe me, i am far more disciplined and organized than a lot of married folks i know. To be frank, i know married folks that sleep with more ladies than single folks (some of them where much disciplined when they were single). Marry if you must but imposing your perspectives on others is bull$hit.

Yes, marriage is a choice, but like I have said one doesn't have to qualify in any way. If some of the married people you know do not adhere or aspire to the ideal of marriage as I understand it, should I change my perspective to suit their actions? I'm not imposing mine on anyone, but sticking to it myself.

Live a facsimile of the George Clooney lifestyle or any other variation if you please. I have every right and will continue to champion traditional notions of marriage.

harakiri: Yes, i will look older at some point and that's why i am making the most of my youth to acquire as much as i can against old age. When my height,looks and "swag" isn't working anymore, i will turn to good old benjamins that NEVER FAIL to deliver. Word!!!.

Please expantiate here as this is not word to me - sounds like one must be hot or rich to be successful in relationships?

harakiri: Your insecurities are speaking out loud with a megaphone. Being married isn't a guarantee for company at old age. Hell,there are young couples married for less than 10yrs and they feel tied to strangers. When you are old and sickly, you kids will be wishing you just pass away and get on with it. If your wife is still attractive, she'll be praying the choking cough kills you overnite so that she can join the single scene on time again and date fellow widowers like herself (while making use of all your hard earned assets to polish herself up). Word!!!.

And being single - even if rich - is?
They married the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
Well raised, mature and appreciative kids? Unlike you I'll pass on the opportunity for a cheap shot.
A well loved and cared for wife.

You sound cynical and totally miss the essence of a mutual loving relationship. With your current mindset, I wouldn't recommend marriage to you.

harakiri: You got married because you want to fit into society. You want to be seen as a "matured man". You have no spine of your own. Your life is dictated by the expectations of the people around you. If those same people urge you to divorce your wife, you will do it to save face. And yet, my comments are "juvenile fantasy". Get real my friend! You are not living YOUR LIFE...You are living your life for others.!!!.

Did you not say marriage was a choice? I made it consciously. Fully understanding and preparing myself first.

Divorce based on the urging of others? Living my life for others? Yet you rebut and decry marriage based on what you see around you? It is you who are living in fear based on the actions/experience of others.

I saw marriage, understood it, entered into it and am loving it. A person who has only been on one side is arguing with a person who has been on both as to which is best.

harakiri: So getting married not equates to being a "man". Funny thing is, most people who i've heard say this are WOMEN and that tells me a lot about your kind of person. You're a sissy.

No, having the write gentic make-up/chromosomes/hormonal balance equates to being a man. Marriage ushers in a new level of maturity and responsibility - for both men and women - if properly understood and entered into. But with the right person, it is extremely fulfilling.

Not having tasted it, you simply cannot comprehend it, so instead of postulating half baked ideas and non-empirical theories, based on your limited experience and media piffle, you should simply refrain or ask of those that have.

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Sagamite: Since when did it make sense to say being married denotes and is a sign of responsibility?

Do you know the meaning of responsibility?

Not just being married per se. After all there is no teat or validation required to wed.
The responsibility of putting someone else first, caring for that person sacrificially if required. Of potentially raising children - in incidentally the best setting for them - to become upright and productive members of society in their own right. That is being responsible and more.

Sagamite: Since when did irresponsible people start getting invited to the UN to talk about extremely serious issues

Does someone respected by the UN look irresponsible?

Or are you his landlord and he has been unprincipled and irregular in his rent payments whilst still making millions from his work?

So George Clooney is invited to the UN because he's responsible? Spare me sir. Is he even an expert? He just has a profile and influence. But this is not about being responsible in isolation.

Fiscal responsibility/maturity should be a prerequisite to marriage.

Sagamite: So if a business man or a business advertises his/their numerous successes but not his/thier failures, does that make him a fraudster or the business a fraud?

Is Mckinsey a fraud? Is the Catholic church a fraud? Is Pfizer a fraud? Is British Airways a fraud?

Lets address those before moving to the others you wrote there.

If one is primarily selling marriage counselling or a family oriented product and falsely professes to an idyllic marriage as a means of pitching the endeavour, they are a fraud. Especially if that playing away is ongoing. Yes, there could have been a misstep or any number of issues. But if these were resolved and the ideal restored fine, not if he's an inverterate cheat and pretends otherwise.

Selling yourself or a product based on an ideal you do not truly subscribe to is in a sense fraud. Especially if you are practising the opposite.

Premier league footballers that are whoremongers are selling their soccer skills. They are merely cheats not business/professional fraudsters.

Where British Airways are (or in the past have been)involved in fraudulent/monopolistic practices, regardless of the success of their enterprise, they are still fraudsters, just as yet unexposed.

What's your point exactly? that hiding falsehood does not matter? Fraud and apparent success often go hand in hand. Are'nt we Nigerians again?

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Saga, ah!, ah!

How long will you be misled by a few unrepresentative outliers?

Does being a celebrity speaker on Sudan (or any subject), Unicef ambassador or fundraiser make one responsible in a societal/familial sense? Those things are little more than photo ops. Please.

In relationship terms he is unwilling or unable to hold it down. A failed marriage and a string of relationships. Serial dating? At 50? Stop already.

Not following rules? Ignoring societal norms. Fine, no problem. I'm interested to know what improvement that route offers to the rules, or how the replacement for these norms offer the same benefit to society and individuals?

You've yet to spell out a viable alternative, rather you keep peddling this schoolboy fantasy of a revolving door of nubile young beauties until the end. I won't fall for that. Specially not from one with your well publicised brainiac type intellect. Haba!

That's why I say such people can barely see beyond their own desires and gratification. Oya trumpet Madonnas rainbow adoptions na? It doesn't make her/them responsible, it's just an attention grab.

We are talking real life you are referencing hollywood.

Per the Bobo, I repeat if he is playing away and falsely using his supposed idyllic marraige to pitch hemself or his business, I consider him a fraudster. If he is selling his endeavours on other points, no problem, he becomes just another cheat. If.


You didn't answer my question about the girl? Quit frontin' abi na NL sissy?

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harakiri: @TV01



First of all, at 32yrs of age i am far from being juvenile and if views that differ from yours now get relegated to the "juvenile" department, then you need to get your wires reset.

@Harakiri, I referred to the notion as juvenile, not you. Prior to your submission, I had no idea as to your age, just some insight into your thoughts on marriage. Having said that age is not in itself an indicator of maturity is it?

harakiri: Second, Madonna in her fifties looks hotter than most women her age and still has much younger men falling over each other to win her attention.

Would you marry a 50 year old - almost certainly menopausal or close to - mother of two, no matter how hot. Would you even enter into a serious relationship with her?

Win her attention, not her hand.

harakiri: Third, George Clooney at 50yrs is one of the hottest middle aged men alive! You would be lucky to look half as hot or as good as him at that age (that's if you don't already look worn out and finished already).

That's twice you've referenced the term "hot"? In as much as what constitutes "hot" is debatable, is that the sole or main criteria for a spouse?

50 years old and middle aged is right. And who doesn't appear to possess the wherewithal to establish a long-term monogamous relationship - to my mind marriage - with anyone, despite being spoilt for choice? That's not hot, that's chilly.

Now to the personal bits. Facially I'll concede the point, but that's still debateable. Physically, I leave the sad old codger iced. Documentary evidence can be provided on request. But be warned, your 32 year old self will also look relatively puny. Oya, beach pix face-off, you first. !

On a serious note, with twenty years of high intensity training behind me and a dietary regime that would scare pre-historic man, I know I no longer possess that vigour of youth. And in men, it starts to wane by the mid thirties at best. And I am not yet 50. No dullin' man, time is yet with you.

Picture this, post that mid thirty point, it's all down hill physically. Ahead lie more frequent and slower to heal injuries (if you are athletic), and various other ailments that will surely visit you as you age (athletic or not). By the time you get to 70, no matter your means and fame, you'll be happy if the nubile young chick - whose name you keep forgetting - just keeps you company and rubs your feet at night. You'll have memories and stories but nothing to show.

Like I said, a juvenile fantasy built on a few well publicised outliers.

Man up. Marry!

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Sagamite: Hell No!

It is none of my business. He has the right to privacy and do whatever he wants to do in private.

If he was indeed playing away and if he a selling point of himself and his business is an idyllic marriage that makes him a fraudster. I don't know his wife position, what she's doing or what agreement they have, but the fact remains, he's perpetrating a fraud on the public and has lost any right to privacy in that regard.

Sagamite: You are so wrong it if shocking.

George Clooney is looking like a comic-book hero by the day. Like a fcking ultimate role model.

And the young girls are not marrying young guys for money these days?

No, he is looking more and more like a man who can't manage responsibility beyond the satisfaction of his immediate desires. Notice how his relationships are becoming shorter and shorter? Watch that space long-term, it will be a great case-study. Anyone using him as a template will in all liklihood end up bitter and lonely - if not alone. Especially without his means and fame.

A role model for whom? for what? A generation of feckless men who never mature into adulthood. He is little better than your typical callow baby-father. Just richer more famous and a little more careful. No woman who holds her long-term relationship health and has a pure - not just immediate gratification and the chance to tailcoat in mind - vision for her future will get with or stay with him.


Part of the responsibility of being a man is to locate and find a girl who matches up and wants to commit to marriage for the right reasons and because you are the right person. That has nothing to do with money. Or fame.

Any news? Has any comely lass made it past your intellect lately?

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Firstly
I can't believe y'all are having this convo without me! Me! NL' #1 marriage champion, defender of the marital union and upholder of uxoral bliss.

Secondly
Miss Ife, you are doing an excellent job of championing that most cherished of institutions. Salute, very well done and take honorary title.

Thirdly
Hopefully, one day those that don't know will desist from characterising that which they don't understand and ask those that do know for understanding.

Fourthly
Sagamite, your playing away bobo on the plane - if he was indeed playing away - has utterly foregone any right to anonymity. If he was playing away whilst using the image of an idyllic marriage to publicly sell himself and his business. Not that I want to know or feel he should be exposed, just that the basis you gave is not the right one.

Fifthly
Juvenile notions of being 70 with a nubile 30 year old on your arm don't hold water. Whatever your gender. See how sorry Madonna looks. Her boyfriends are pretty much her daughters class-mates. Tragic for them both. George Clooney is looking sadder by the day and he's barely 50. Face it when you're that age, the probability is that anyone so young and fit getting with you, is not for you but for your fame and/or money.And it's highly unlikely any of you will ever have the means to live that lifestyle anyway.

Lastly
Don't be down on marriage because of what typically obtains. Look at the ideal and find someone that understands, shares and is willing to commit to the same. Do of course fancy them like mad.

Quit being afraid, dive in. Men Marry!

Happy to give a rousing sermon on the day in western or traditional attire.

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No.

Thanks for the link. I filled out the online form and commented as follows;

I belive marriage as a civil or religious ceremony should retain its religious and historical context as being between a man and a woman and not be varied in any way to accomodate "same-sex" couples.

If an arrangement is made for same-sex couples, it should be distinct from "traditional marriage" and only exist legally, with no overlap - be that discretionary/voluntary or mandatory - with religious/faith based ceremonies between a man and a woman.

I would also prefer that any such accomodation for same-sex couples was not "termed" marriage" either in part or whole. Just to be clear.


Reading the form and some of the back-up documentation only helped re-affirm myposition. The "authorities" are intent with pressing on with this and the consultation is only with regard some of the detail.

Any variation of the traditional/historical concept of marriage to accomodate same-sex couples I would consider a perversion. Likewise any variation of the religious - Christian in my case - template, i.e. more/different reasons for divorce and the de facto assumption that divorce even if permitted - in the case of adultery - pressuposes remarriage if chosen, I would consider likewise.

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sosoluv: if a woman doesnt not satisfy a man sexually (does not have sex with him at all) then she in not caring enough, but when she needs him to show how much he cares financially it becomes a problem. the day you start showing you care without expecting sex from a woman is the day more woman will stop expecting a guy to show he cares financially too

davidylan: why is a woman's idea of a man caring about her have to do with finances all the time?

Through the ages sex - and for the most part with women on the receiving end - has been commoditised. Indeed, even in a regularised union between couples finances are a consideration.

The tragedy being that in this day what, what was fringe, is now mainstream and what was a consideration is for many now the whole basis and driving reason.

I have little doubt that the interweaving of caring, finances and sex is not only not questioned these days, but considered right. So there you have it, monetised and purely transactional, you get what you pays for is the norm for many.

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I often wonder what thought has precedes voicing the now all but clichéd ...”there is no perfect marriage”? Especially as it never seems to be voiced except in a pejorative sense.

Is anything on God’ green earth perfect? Even the green earth sef? Outside of a Divine Almighty Creator – for those that believe – I ask again, is anything perfect?

To be able to recognise an imperfect marriage, surely there must be a template, an ideal, against which to deem others imperfect?

Something is perfect - IMO – when it does what it is meant to do, exactly what it was designed for. To fully understand marriage is to grasp that it is perfect for us, is meant to help perfect us. And perfection is end game, not necessarily the starting point.

Interested to hear why peoples marriages are not perfect, what they are doing to perfect them. And why with the belief that it can’t/won’t be, they got married in the first place?

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_{So Shymmex, what does your worldview tell you about marriage?}

shymmex: My worldview??

I would call myself a Yoruba guy at heart, but a Londoner on the outside...

Which means, I'm a westernized Afrocentric (Yorubacentric) guy - the best of both worlds, but more ingrained into the Yoruba culture and Yoruba way of life.

Most peoples worldviews are driven by faith, culture (and experience?). Most faiths/cutures have a template for adulthood (maturity)and for marriage. I am not saying that I believe they are all equal or equally good - I personally subscribe to a Christian worldview - but it should be as simple as saying, understand and embrace the ideal within that faith/culture, find a woman who does likewise to a very great degree and then get married.

But it's not that simple is it? Everything from personal preference, to bad practise to foreign influence has caused ideals to be muddied and loosened as anchors. It can be very confusing.

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_{(Alternatively, if one is bold enough, construct their own reality in this regard, either from scratch or an amalgam of whats out there, but you still have to find the girl - or build it in tandem with her - that buys into it, then get married. I am yet to see this, but park that thought for now).}

shymmex: What makes marriage thick?

For every union, that is unique. What you bring to it is what makes it tick, the desire, commitment, expectation, maturity, wisdom and understanding.

shymmex: And why must everyone get married - if many people are looking for ways to get out of it?

For various reasons, not everyone will get married, but it is in a sense the "default and for one not to marry there will be cogent reason.

"Many looking to get out", is in short because "many didn't look (i.e, understand and embrace it properly) before they went in.


It would help to know your worldview before we progress.

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@Op, you may not realise it but I believe the title of this thread accurately captures the heart of the matter.

Your fear of marriage is down to the fact that you do not understand it (and I'd imagine further, because you haven't seen the marriage union articulated in a way that makes it aspirational for you). Afterall, if you understood it, you'd be free to embrace it, or reject it as something that isn't for you.

It's further compounded by the pressure and in some sense the inveitability of having to undertake it, without fully getting it or knowing if you truly want it.

I think your questioning this is briliant and one of the best things you could do for yourself. Because entering into it without fully understanding it, is to dangerously amplify what should at the very worst quite minimal risk.

If you'd like to discuss further or post a question, please do so. The are number of ways to approach this, but I'd rather follow your lead if you so desire.

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Intuitively, I would have no sympathy if you tasted a little judgement for your past misdeeds, and no problem with you learning a very painful lesson here. Hopefully one that meant you never behaved in such a manner again.

By your own admission,you treated "this chic" - and in all likelihood a number of others - like dirt. The ramifications of your maltreatment may well reverberate for a long time to come, potentially hurting all of her future relationships. If she's lucky she'll meet someone mature enought to carry the burden of loving her better, if indeed she ever fully heals.

We all have sisters, daughters mothers and wouldn't want them treated in that way. Given my experience and what I have seen/heard,I am quite downbeat about the "Nigerian woman", but it has to be said the "Nigerian man" has been her worst abuser. And you can't coruscate one without bringing shame on the other.

Having said that, I am a great believer in redemption, so if you are generally remorseful and true in your intentions, I have this advice for you; humble yourself. Apologise and beg if you have to. Make a long-term commitment that includes marriage vows and pray that she will perhaps give you the opportunity to be that man that loves her better. You absolutely don't deserve it.

Any less and you are just picking up where you left off.

Sorry if I come across a bit harsh, but you have been a bit of a prick behaved despicably.

I wish "the chic" full restoration and all the best - with or without you.

TV

afam4eva: This marraige of a thing always seems like a raffle draw where the lucky ones...

Luck mostly comes into play when it's entered into unprepared. With the right preparation and expectations, the right understanding, the right person and at the right time, it can be a cakewalk. Really.

Please don't be put off.

All the very best
TV

^{and yes, I'd absolutely marry her again. Although that doesn't mean I don't believe I could have a really good marriage with any number of other suitable women and the idea of being able to have it really good again but differently makes me wonder. But this gal is special, so I'm not sure I'd risk it .}

@OP, Yes, you do have a choice. Look to your faith in God, recall your vows and your commitment to your wife and make it.

All the very best.
TV

I'm more or less with CC on this, especially per her last post.

@Davidlyan
Life is messy and not as clear cut as we'd like to imagine. I have mentioned - in context - the powerful cultural imperatives of marriage and/or children, they are driven by societal pressure and desire, not by circumstances (its why I noted that recent phenomena of older single mothers). Can I even think of any more powerful drivers? Your thinking is eminently sensible. In fact, I can't fault it, but maybe a little naive?

CC' example of her start to married life is in fact typical. We get whatever qualifications we can, plan/pursue careers or business and hope for the best. There may not be a specific plan, but I'm in no doubt that most plan to "work and do their very best"?

I planned and prepared for my marriage for years and saved relentlessly. I even "slummed it" to save money. I knew I'd have to upgrade my "ketekete" car, fund a wedding, set-up home and expect kids. And I did this without knowing or factoring in what my WTB' financial position would be would have by way of finances. The wife sef, seemed like she would never show. Ol' boy, I prayed till I was hoarse.

Having by the grace of God gotten there, would more money have been good? Absolutely and without being profligate. Would I have done it with less. No question. A lot less. Maybe not to the degree of my "slumming it" days, but with the right women, I would have gone into it (marriage)with a view to working through and out of it (the financial hardship).

Even now, we are stable, financially, things are ok, we've progressed through the list, but I still can't gaurantee anything monetary wise. Very few are able to do that.

The right person is to my mind more important than the finances. Op' husband knows that much. And when I said "keeper" I meant from his point of view. He got that much right.

I'm loathe to have a go at anyones spouse, particularly not having heard their own account of affairs. I just don't feel it's my place and consider everyones' matrriage as sacrosanct as my own.

And in my walk, God has always been key. Not in a cliched way, but faith has really availed for me. Over and above practica christianity, which I also ascribe to.

I once knew this "pastor", who always used to shake is head and point his finger, saying "ah, marriage is expensive 0!"

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I'd like to think that Oga is also chasing up leads as to what steps the family can take to improve their fortunes. It's a partnership no? Wherever the solution comes from, if it's viable it's paydirt, if it works, jackpot.

I'm a little puzzled at pride - even minimally - being a factor here. How glamorous can any minimum wage job be? And no matter how glamourous it is, who wouldn't jump at the chance of something better paying, no matter how less glamorous?

Financial planning prior to marriage? That's all well and good, laudable even. But in reality, when the time, circumstance or the person comes, for most, it is at best a secondary consideration and even then, not a long-term one.

I have English friends who often use the phrase "we can't afford to have children". I don't see that term in the Nigerian lexicon. The poorest of the poor marry and sire offspring. And culturally we see it as an obligatory "life achievement", regardless of our means.

(As an aside, has anyone else noticed the phenomena, whereby African women of an age will simply have a kid, regardless of means or a man? I am not referring to the age-old teenage pregnancy issue here. I have witnessed this repeatedly in different settings of late. Or was I just late cottoning on here? A few years back,someone told me her mother had told her that at 38 with no husband,she'd best have a kid. I didn't take it seriously at the time, but I see this constantly now).

You are 40/40+ and you meet a "keeper". But you aren't that financially stable. Will you honestly wait till you are more financially bouyant before you get married? Likewise you are that age and married, will you really subject your fertility to your finances? I don't think so. Besides, finances can go from solid to decidedly shakey in a flash. It wouldn't be a reason to undo your vows would it?

Most, consciously or unconsciously, go by the "two can live more cheaply than one" maxim, or the Nigerian equivalents "we will manage" or "God will provide". They will typically worry only about the wedding cost (short-term) and possibly the cost of setting up home (and that cost would in a sense, have been ongoing anyway), and proceed.

Then kids come along, and like the introduction of a long forgotten debt that have been accruing usurious interest, finances take a hit. I say kids, because the thinking after the first one will invariably be " lets just get childbirth out of the way and have the next one, two. More especially for older couples. Like I said, I totally get the ideal, but in the Nigerian context, the imperative of marriage and children swipes it aside.


Sorry for digressing/derailing.

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For the vast majority of Nigerians living in the UK the OP' situation is I would imagine quite "typical". Although individual circumstances may vary "within a range". Indeed, there are big earners within the community, but like the extremely impoverished, they would be the exception rather than the rule in absolute terms.

I would actually consider the stated joint net monthly take home pay to be within the bulge bracket, although perhaps not middle class per se.

I would think 2-5K p/m would capture most families. May sound like a wide range, but like Naijas would say it's levels. For many the difference would be taken up by larger house, nicer area, smarter car, better (fee-paying) schools. And yes there may be more bandwidth for contingency and "luxuries"

Other factors may come into play, immigration status, duration - i.e., been around long and have saved or managed to acquire property when prices where more reasonable vs. relatively recent arrival. Right now it's actually cheaper to own. It's scaling the deposit and creditworthiness hurdles that is hurting people.

I'm concerned about the hand to mouth situation, especially if it means no "rainy day" finance is in place. If so that has to be addressed as a priority. What happens if one of you loses your job? You both sound very sensible with your finances, so I am not faulting you here.

Are you looking for something transformational or just a marginal. Things are so structured, that marginal increments sometimes make little difference. A 10% increase would bring in approx 2.5 k p/a. That woud barely fund a trip back home or cover a move to a larger place or nicer area or a vehicle upgrade. This country has a funny way of swallowing any income? For things to get "gradually better", typically one must be working towards something or have the basis for that to happen?

Could the business you run with hubby be the key? If hubby is gifted as stated, why not look to form strategic alliances? Gifts bring one before people Se? What of friends, family or fellowship I thought I heard church)? Whether its working with, for, alongside or just gaining insight. That should go for both. Everything from money saving/home economics tips to solid business ideas. Thanks for the link BB, me sef go read am.

Op is appreciative of her blessings, which is really good. Always look to He from whom help comes. Maybe the miraculous will come into play.

There has been lots of support on this thread, not withstanding the odd "off key" post. I've little to add.

Don't tithe. But do give if able, there are always those less fortunate.
Please stay away from consumer debt as best you can.
Do try and find ways to treat yourselves.

I wish you and your family all the best.

TV

Both partners in a marital union should pay the utmost regard to the desires and feelings of the other.

There is nothing inherently risky about it - noting preexisting medical conditions - and it is in no way perverted. It's normal and proven to be beneficial.

And for the woman, it's probably more than just the act; she will want the re-assurance that her husband still finds her attractive and alluring, despite this bewildering change to her body. Especially if she's a first timer.

If the "non-communication" stems from him and if it's due to this, it's a shame. Wifey needs his support at this time. She should ensure it's not something else causing it, but whatever it is, the lines need to be opened and clear. She needs to keep plugging away and come to an understanding with her hubby.

I never knew how it would be, but I approached it with an open mind. It made absolutely no difference to us. We still wonder if that's why Jnr was past-term sef. All that banging made him scared to come out .

Women are more likely to be "off it" post-partum. If he is off for the 9 months before and she for a long period after, that could spell a long period without. That in itself could be problematic for some.


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For those that would appreciate clarity on my position.

Why take the ideal that many hold precious and strive to re-engineer it in an attempt to resolve problems in the middle. Problems which would mostly have been obviated by ensuring a proper foundation was set from the beginning.

An ideal that has served so many, so well, for so long. If you know or feel that you cannot live up to the ideal, simply opt out. Don’t try and dilute it to suit self-serving views and selfish needs if/or when the going gets tough, especially if the tough going is due to poor execution. There is no problem with the ideal

Don’t introduce more reasons for divorce, revisit the criteria and protocols for marriage, thus strengthening the ideal and preserving its benefits and value. Likewise, don’t warp it to include those for whom it is not intended, which will have the same deleterious effect. Both of these moves are wrong – and deleterious - hence my ascribing them to the same hydra.

Rather give them their own construct if they insist. Society has the powers to legislate for its desires. Simply go ahead. Why seek to use that power to pervert a cherished, beneficial and to many a God given institution.

Society has permitted, baby fathers/mothers, common-law unions and civil partnerships. We hear of “starter marriages”, co-habitation, pre-nups, post-nups, FWB, FB’s, Jump-Offs. Keep on constructing if you must. But please leave the ideal for those that cherish it.

I sympathise but I am not moved by the tragic stories - which always speak to issues after the fact and not the very foundation. I have rarely seen any "situation" that could not be traced back to a faulty base.

I sympathise, but don't believe the ideal is flawed or requires re-engineering. To me that makes about as much sense as saying more guns will mean less violence.

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Let me comment if I may.

For those that don’t know, I am a Christian and I take a biblical – realising that there can be as many interpretations as there are Christians here – view of marriage.

My view put simply, is that marriage is 1. Of God 2. Between a man and a woman 3. For life 4. Divorce permitted – not prescribed - only in the event of adultery and 5. Remarriage allowed only in the event of the death of one of the spouses.

Having said that I am loathe to be dogmatic. A religious spirit can lead to great evils. We are all products of our societies, influences, experiences, beliefs, the things we have seen and heard. How many NL’ers have confessed to change of views based on what they’ve heard on this forum alone?


So, to the question of divorce. And, from the perspective of one who champions marriage.

My first response is not to look for reasons to divorce, it’s to say, “what reasons do you have to marry in the first place”? This discussion should be end to end, and start at the beginning.

From preparing the person, their understanding and their expectations. The benefits to them and the value to society. To ensuring that proper protocols are in place in all respects prior to any "marriage". Many simply get it wrong going in, then look to reason their way out.

I personally consider a lot of the reasons given here for divorce are either spurious and subjective; unhappiness/suffering, or extreme, heinous brutality/hideous diseases/painful death. It is pertinent to note that on this forum, we tend to read almost universally of instances where there are problems, potentially skewing our view of what really obtains in the vast majority of cases, let alone those executed in proper manner.

When the conversation is typically initiated around individual or unique experiences and starts at the point of issues as opposed to inception – after and not before - and is rarely viewed against an objective standard, is it any surprise that many – visitors to this forum alone – are being put off marriage, due to the unbalanced discourse and not realising there is a more wholesome perspective.

I have outlined my view on marriage in points 1-5 above. It seems to me that many want to be able to embrace it without living up to what it entails. Maybe I should have added a 6th point; “it’s sacrificial in nature”.

Instead of re-engineering what marriage, has traditionally represented, why not come up with your own “arrangement”? To my mind, any attempt to “re-engineer” is to me a different head of the same hydra that birthed “gay-marriage”. Those who are God’s are known to him. As are even those who enter into a seemingly traditional arrangement for wrong or with selfish motives.

On the “is marriage worth it for guys thread” I invited proposals for “alternative arrangements” – especially ones that would give the same benefit to society. I am yet to hear. I re-issue that invite here.

Suffice to say, the traditional notion of marriage is treasured and honoured by many. To those that can't deal with it or don't share it, I would say "don't warp what we hold precious, don't pervert what we consider dear". Construct your own arrangements. If you want "gay-marriage" don't take traditional marriage and re-engineer it - heaven knows it abused enough already - formulate and build your own construct. Pleaseleave ours alone. If you can't take it the way it is,don't abuse it, simply opt-out! If you can't deal with the ideal, don't besmirch and deny others of it. It is as we say "not by force"

There’s is nothing wrong with and no downside to a well executed marriage. It’s the people. It's always the people.

Please note, I write with my own worldview in mind, if you subscribe to a different one that is fine. Also bearing in mind that when I use the term “traditional”, I am not ascribing to the historical abuse that was institutionalised before and remained largely entrenched after the biblical marriage came into view. I mean a proper enunciation of scripture. Even if that interpretation is mine!


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"Uxury is Me"

Titan bro', hello sir.

First up, can I just say "I like you"? Thank you. I like you. Yes sirree! I really like you. And for so many reasons, and on so many levels.

You are young, accomplished and that rarity amongst humans - and especially Nigerians these days - one able to care with your whole heart and love with a passion. You're forgiving, with a long term and comitted view to relationships. What's not to like, huh?.

Plus, plus...you brought this to the fore before the fact, not after. Indeed, you brought us a non-issue. That's right sir. I see no real downside here. No problem whatsoever. It's all good. Gravy as we say.

I have one small issue with you, one area where you haven't been "titanic", in fact you've been somewhat "dwarfish". But, please, please, please don't let that detract from the praise that has gone before.

But listen up, 'cos when we done, you will surely grow in stature.

You are a man! You never, ever, let yourself, be driven by emotion. You never, ever allow yourself to be led by beauty or charm. You simply cannot afford that luxury.

You are indeed blessed, as you've just had an experience, which with a slightly different - and one you may well have considered "happy" - ending may have meant your ruin, or at least a seriously diminished existence for a longtime to come. You are one lucky brother.

This girl was sent to help you transform this area of dwarfism into a titanic strength as truly befits you. Now, we ain't hatin', but in her current incarnation,she is simply not someone any mature man can consider marrying. Not dwarves, not giants and certainly not titans. Don't get me wrong, we want the best for her, we hope she changes, but at this point in time, she is simply wrong.

Could she yet be yours? I feel the chances of that are very slim, but possibly. However, you should not pursue it in any way. Do not, I repeat, do not contact her. Not on her birthday, before her finals, if she breaks a nail, or for any other reason.

If you run into her, be polite, exchange greetings, but do not tarry. Pleasantries sef, are a no,no. And if you can avoid her without being rude, do so. Do not contact or approach her!

If she actively tries to approach or contact you, briefly state "no rancour, but it's best you cease contact". No long-winded explanation, no tori. And afford her that courtesy just the once,then feel free to simply ignore her. You almost got this right at a point.

You need closure of this chapter and to change and grow from this. Hopefully she will to, then maybe at some point down the road, who knows? But like I said, there's only a very slim possibility and I kinda doubt it and intuitively,I don't want it. But who am I?.

And note, all those "small small" encounters you narrated here, demean you and make you sound "untitanic". I repeat, "you are a man", don't live by what you feel, act based on what is right and best. Be considered in your utterances. And as has been advanced a few times already, get on with your life. It's for living, not moping. Time will heal you and I suspect you'll soon get over her.

A few words about the main protagonists;

Your family - rightfully dislike her. You are precious to them and a good bloke. She does not respect you and despises them. They can see her character with clear eyes and are livid at her for humiliating you. If that "slim" possibility ever comes to pass, she'll travail to convince them of her changed character and new found sincerity. And will have to swallow a large helping of humility herself. Don't be surprised if they only warily accept her at best or mobilise every effort to end it. You did nothing wrong by "showing her" to them. You should always do that if it's serious.

Your Ex - flawed, selfish and uncaring. Perhaps just young? Perhaps she's simply not ready for a long-term commitment or marriage at 23. Did you rush her ? Don't be bitter about it or twisted about her. It was for your learning. When you meet a woman that is worthy of you and what you bring, you'll look back and be thankful. You'll look forward and be more appreciative of what you will certainly have.

Your Current - that relationship should be ended or immediately downgraded to platonic friendship. You are in no state for a new relationship. You are not being honest or giving her a fair chance. If she is the serious type and serious about the relationship, again it's best you end it for now. You need time to heal. Let's not heap up heartbreak here.

You - I full expect you to progress from titan to colossus. Kick on from here, build your career.How will quality totty not flock your way? Choose wisely, with your head not your heart. Although your heart may kickstart things. Please come back to tell us all about it. We need some goods news up in here.

Now go get some sleep. As one who's been there, I know how it can mess with your sleep patterns. Bet you went all "hermit like" for a while and lost weight to huh ?

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