₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
Shown above is the link for the original discussion between muttleylaff and esere826.
This is snapped up and seized by Ubenedictus.
He then vindictively blew it out of proportion, italo in tandem, too has unashamedly dissected it with ulterior intent and brought it up here, as seen following below









MuttleyLaff: 9:10am On Jun 19
Excuse my language
but you've probably guessed that I dont give a Foxtrot-Uniform-Charlie-Kilo about what type of water are in those passages,
as my stance on water baptism is no secret.
Do it, if you're compelled or feel the need to
but if you dont, please do not lose sleep over it. It isnt a do-or-die fanaticism

I just love it when people pull out the heresy card and play it grin grin grin
Something must have rattled and got them fidgety to do that

Nota bene, I am very particular and more concerned about John 3:5 and John 7:8
Do you agree both verses have nothing whatsoever to do with physical or literal water
https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/5#34918196

MuttleyLaff: 7:51am On Jun 24
God bless you.
This exactly is the genesis of this whole matter.
Before it spilled into this thread, it started between Kei144 and I, here https://www.nairaland.com/2352063/enter-kingdom-god-now#34519061
https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/8#35090589

You guys are employing delay tactics, to distract with another straw-man
and so prevent the submission of the promised last post which will settle and put the final nail in this whole thing

you can submit whatever you want to submit that is not my problem.

But I didn't lie, you said it! You claim is was obsolate and expired, you said it was done out of sentiments and ignorance! That was the post that really made me take notice. I didn't blow anything or lie! Please be sincere.

hurricaneChris:
"It can be only be the Lord's going"

My second sister just had her induction as a medical doctor at Imo State Uni. Teaching Hospital, Orlu.

Yet, the Lord has given my Mum and indeed my family another daughter who's a doctor. We are grateful to God.

Brothers and sisters, please us as we keep singing endlessly and in adoration to God's blessing and favors.

weytin happen to d invitation? Abi u no want make we come chop rice?

MuttleyLaff:
Ubenedictus, you know how we got to me making that remark
I didnt abracadabra pluck it out of the air and just blurt out that truth like the manner you're twisting and icorrectly making it out that way
Dont you get tired of this Ubenedictus? You've had a field day of straw-man at my expense

In my next post, lets (i.e. italo, Syncan, you, Ubenedictus and I) put this matter to rest once and for all.
You and italo are going to love it. Syncan upon reading it, as usual might stay aloof
You better go put on a gum shield Ubenedictus, as the glove is coming off now.

I have countlessly said and gave examples,
that baptism is not an exclusive use meaning "water baptism" or only to be associated with "physical water baptism"
Forewarned is forearmed. I am taking no prisoners, so dont say there were no warnings

lol,

i did not lie, i simply wrote what you said.

You said baptism is an expired, obsolate practice and those who practice it do so out of ignorance and sentiments, that was what you said, isn't it?

osicom:
Let's be very careful here.Our opinion and thoughts are not important here but rather what the bible says on this matter.Baptism is as important as any commandment in the Bible.It was part of the great commission where Christ command that we should PREACH the Gospel and whoever BELIEVE and is BAPTIZED will be save (Matt 28:19;Mark 16:15,16 etc).Most people will agree with me that believe,repentance,confessing Christ etc are essential for salvation.But most people always have issue when it comes to baptism which appear simultaneously with these commands.Read what Apostle Paul wrote in Roman 6:3,4: ''Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZE into Jesus Christ were BAPTIZED into his death? Therefore we are BURIED with him by BAPTISM into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. .When the church started in Act chapter,do you not read of baptism being commanded by Peter to those who asked to be save? Acts 2:38-42 reads :''Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION (FORGIVENESS) of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly RECEIVED his word were BAPTIZED: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


There are numerous examples and instructions in support of baptism in the new testament.I should stop here for now not to have a lengthy poste,but read all the conversions (People becoming christian) in the book of Acts,and you come to realize the importance of this commandment. People of today disregard this just because of their personal view or of being thought differently in their respectively denomination by religious leaders.Whatever we say especially in this discussion of baptism if not supported in the bible should be disregarded.Let us base whatever we say,do on the Bible

thank you!

Both faith and baptism are important for salvation, I don't know why anyone will decide to play with what scriptures say.

brocab:
And you were baptised into Mary, as sinners do.

you are on your own

Read you bible. From Psalms 51:5 Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul who sins shall die-The son shall not bear the punishment for his fathers iniquity, nor his father shall bear the punishment for his sons iniquity.
Meaning to say: The son don't take on the responsibility of his father or his mothers sins, but his own.
Kings 4:6 "The fathers shall not be put to death for his son, nor the son shall not be put to death for his father, both have their own sins.

So you see a infant does not have that same sinful nature as his parents, he may have been born into a sinners world, but a infant, as the Lord tells says, infants and little children are such as the kingdom of heaven.

Proving the child is still sinless in actions-without any sensibility to know sin..
So this shows you who have been baptised as a infant, was not baptised for your own remissions of sins, But the parents.
And if that's the case, then no-baby has been baptised into Christ.

heresy,

bible says, "i am a sinner from the womb"

brocab say, "you are not a sinner from the womb"

Syncan:
Let's hope he doesn't renounce his position if he sees this.

yeah, frobel hates anything catholic. He'll probably reject anything that has "Catholic" attached to it.

Make I wait and see

midolian:
Fake news everywhere. Very fake.



It makes no sense to say "with the senate announcing an adjournment till july 21, the presidents ministerial list will have to be delayed till then or till after Ramadan Festival"..This is very untrue. The president has the power to ask the lawmakers to meet when the need arises. if the ministerial list is ready even by next week, he can always ask them to meet over it.

not true,

the president does not have the power to call the house, mr saraki does but he and the president are not in very good terms.

tonychristopher:
You did not tell the world how the oba of benin forcefully makes a woman he fancies his concubines once she enters the palace .. With or without any consent of the girls parents or the girl ...this is abduction kidnapping and unroyal

You did not tell them about the castrated men also

Don't ask me... I lived in benin

this isn't exactly true unless ofcuz u are talking about olden days warrior Kings. The oba does not marry a slave, he thus cannot grab someone and force her into the palace and make her wife.

There are a long range of persuation an Oba can use but outrigh force isn't usual and beneath the throne.

tonychristopher: Some people say that oba of benin if he dies his head would be chopped off and buried somewhere in ile ife

Two that benin are Yoruba and answerable to ooni of ife even oba

The last question is that the term oba came from yoruba or is it the other way round


I lived in benin around oliha and I am trying to know how benin and Yoruba relate...who is the elder


Then are utsen Yoruba or benin and are they answerable to oba of benin or one Yoruba oba ...their language is a mixture of Yoruba and benin


Thank u

according to the bini account yoruba and bini are brothers.

There is a story of how it is.

In the olden days the bini kingdom was called igodo or igodomigodo, the ruler was not called Oba, he was called ogiso, he was believed to be a descendant of the gods and had power over his subject, the line of ogisos is very long, but the last ogiso wasn't blessed with many sons, he had just one son. I think his name was Elekederan (i'm not sure I got it correctly), anyway the other wife of the ogiso claimed the oracle said the prince must be banished. Without much ado he was banish, he left the city in the company of some "izebus", after some years of jorneying he landed in present day Ife and change his name to "Imazodu'wa", i.e "i didn't miss the path of properity", (which was later corrupted to "oduduwa" there he was famed for his tradition powers, his healing and his spiritual prowess. The soon became king taking the traditional title Oba.

Back home his father had died and Evian a member of the royal family was acting as regent to the throne, Evian wanted his family to be recognised as the rulers of igodo and the chiefs disagreed and sent an expendition for the prince. When they got to Ife they were welcomed, they stated their mission and after a test which they passed oduduwa told them that he couldn't go back with them since he was old and he had already established a kingdom in Ife, he gave them his son "Omonoyan" (now corrupted as Oranmiyan) to take his place.

When Oranmiyan arrived he met serious problems, the children of Evian refused to vacate the throne they said, Ogiame amioba (we have ogie, not Obas) refering to the fact that oranmiyan wasn't grounded in the bini customs and was pretty much ignorant of the bini ways. Oranmiyan was very angry as he wasn't even allowed into the ogiso palace he was living in the outskirt of the city. He named the City Ile Ibinu (land of vexation) later called Ibinu and corrupted to bini. Not long after oranmiyan decided to leave bini becos he believe only someone who understood the custom can lead the people. On his way out he stayed in Ehor and took the daughter of the chief there as his own, not before long she was pregnant and gave birth to a son, d was later called Eweka from his first uterance (owomika). That is how bini rulers started to be called Oba. The line of Evian d "ogiame" suvives till this day.

Oranmiyan went back to Oyo in anger, oduduwa promised him Ife, he went and established the Oyo kingdom and later came back to take Ife throne.

That is how yorubas and binis relate through oduduwa and oranmiyan. The binis were never answerable to th Ooni or any other Oba.

Ofcus the yorubas disagree with this account they believe oduduwa jumped down from heaven with a rope or maybe came from Egypt.

Ife also claims to have the heads of the Obas, I don't know how true that is, but it is possible, d bini obas also considered Ife as home since it was established by their father oduduwa. If that tradition ever existed then it is no longer followed.

If you really want to enjoy bini history then you should discuss a little with Areafada.

italo:
And condemning Catholics to hell.

Now the Catholic doctrine has remained the same, but Frosbel's doctrine has been flip-flopping and is gravitating back to Catholic doctrine.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 847:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.


Rom 2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

I laugh in Latin.

hmmmm!

An2elect2:
Well you using NIV to get another interpretation of the verses against the KJV, even when the KJV is more accurate...and reliable. The scripture says those who received Christ were born of the Spirit. They received Christ because they were born again. I should ignore this and settle for NIV "wrong interpretation" hehehe epic



Okay, Where does faith unto salvation and righteousness come from? How come one believes and the other does not (for example)?

hehehe,

since when did King Jame become the most accurate translation?

I do have a KJV bible but I still don't get the way the new set of churches are turning it into some kind of best bible.

It still hardly maters what version u both are using, they both say the same thing. Salvation is a Gift received by faith

Rich4god:
lol..... She never cook for me for sometime now....

this is really serious!

MuttleyLaff:
What I said there wasnt happenstance, you have chosen not to add the connection to the post I made that comment to.

I gave that remark when you posted and asked:

"Your point is that Baptism saves, but not water baptism.

What then is the use of water baptism?"

you simply said, water baptism was obsolate and those who do it, do so out of ignorance and sentiment! Abi no be so?

brocab:
Babies can't sin-and they can't be baptised for the remissions of sins, either.
For all have sinned, those who believe have fallen short of sin.

So when you were born-what was your sin, that your parents had to have you baptised as a child at birth.And who spoke for you, to claim you are saved, and answer the question unto whom are you saved?

read your bible.

Ps 51: 7

True I was born guilty, a sinner even as my mother concieved me

don't you just love the bible?

MuttleyLaff:
See yourself now, what about before He died and resurrected?

the merits of Jesus death and resurrection spills both forward and backward into history, are you unaware of this?

This is interesting, care to reproduced verbatim, word for word, chapter by chapter, verse for verse, where Jesus commanded baptism, obviously you meant "water baptism" but you're being coy to write it out in full

matt 28 :19

Go therefore make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, and of the Son and of the holyspirit

On the contrary, I am not brother. Dont know why you find that hard to know and get that I am not

https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
Upon all the "I'll not do your work for you" gra-gra, see yourself now

is this your response?

Syncan:
Ubenedictus may continue expounding on allusions and prefigures used by the apostles to teach. For me, The apostles, obeying Jesus baptized with water and the Holy Spirit's presence was made manifest. In this baptism I die with Christ and rise with Him a new man. I am born again.

lol,

trying to discuss topology with someone who denies the plain words of scriptures and say baptism is done for ignorant and sentimental reasons when Scripture says it is effective can truly be a waste of time.

I have made the noise let me see his response.

MuttleyLaff:
You started "Whatever Peter said" with "Peter says "baptism save you now" but you would rather teach against scripture that it is obsolate!"
https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/7#35065244

Ubenedictus what saves you?
Is it baptism of water or baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire

you are trying to create a dichotomy. Try again.

MuttleyLaff:
Start with how exactly were those in 1 Peter 3:20-21 baptised?
Were they water baptised, as in immersed in physical water?

You're so obsessed with water, you still dont get it
Did you pause enough to think of the meaning & implication of "It is EFFECTIVE BECAUSE OF THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ"?

lol,

it is effective because of the life death and resurrection on Jesus, nobody is argueing that.

OUr point is that "IT IS EFFECTIVE"

I asked because you below shrugged off where I earlier had said, water baptism was allowed by Jesus because He has yet died and resurrected
(i.e. He hasnt been glorified yet) with a post saying:
"What does it matter whether Jesus had died or not died?
Almost all Jesus' recorded teachings were done before he died"

Yes almost all Jesus' recorded teachings were done before He died,
BUT according to John 16:12-13, Jesus still had more things to say which He left for later

John 16:12-13
¹²“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
¹³“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth;
for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak;
and He will disclose to you what is to come

even after resurrection Jesus still commanded baptism, what is your point?

Thank you all. All answers are in,
so now, italo, Syncan and Ubenedictus, please throw light of the following, then compare and contrast them:
Moses baptism, John baptism and Jesus baptism

that is you job, you are d guy trying to disprove baptism. I'll not do your work for you.

I'll simply say the baptism on Moses was a figure, that of John was in anticipation for repentance. That of Jesus make us partakers in him.

Onegai:
Tradition states that the Crown Prince doesn't live in the palace in order to avoid consolidating power and attempting to overthrow his father. When you are constantly looking at the throne, human greed and ambitiousness could make you do all sorts. The Oba is all-powerful over his chiefs and lesser kings. In order to curtail that power a bit, he is constrained to the palace, unless on festivities. Invite him to your wedding, he will send chiefs to attend in his stead. These are very old traditions.

this doesn't contradict anything I said.

fitzmayowa:
So the states that are not owing were not affected by the drop in oil price right

The bolded is the height of insensitivity and this one of the reason why nigeria is where it is today, if you were one of those been owed for simply working their butts off you will not be making this kind of comments...

Don't let your party affiliation blind you to the glaring failure of aregbe...SMH

stated that are not owing are simply borrow are they are very few.

Oshiomole of Edo managed to increase tax in almost everything some years ago and even that plus allocation can't still pay his workers he borrows to complete it. He isn't owing workers but that is because he is systematicaly accumulating debts. The problem is that Osun and Imo has ran out of credit, they can't borrow anymore.

Beside it seems pope francis has at last release his "encyclical" on the enviroment , he called it "Laudato Si"

ruffDiamond:
I'm just short of word what all this rawbish The dude invented malaria vaccines? just juju sha is he more important than Thomas Edison Or even Tesla?? no wonder their govnor gomarry an underage mammy watermaid chai sometime I wish I weren't black?!!! all these primitive tradition ,to what end? Mitchewwwww

what is your opinion about the primitive tradition of England that makes the queen wave in a weird way?

hefty4real:
Hmmm Historian! how does a first born kill his father when he is feeble. And is it really possible 4 a firstborn son not to c his father n still live in the same house with the father, just to avoid murder? U r off point bro

there is a tradition or rather there was a tradition among the Obas that kept the Oba in the palace most time and he used to publicly come out once a year during the festival.

In the olden days and to a lesser degree even today, the Oba doesn't receive guests anyhow and doesn't dress anyhow. He ofcuz uses the traditional means.

In the olden day it was ritually forbidden for the prince to see his father on full ragalia, there is still the rumour flying around that if the omo n'ba is fully dressed he can be a force of nature when angry.

So I believe for reasons of commonsense, seperation of power, a some interesting rituals the prince isn't supposed to live with is father when of age.

manutdadex:
there are huge traditional and historical similarities between the Benin people and the ilajes in ondo

they are actually brothers, the illajes of Ondo left bini with a a certain chief, I don forget e name, if I remember correctly the traditional rulers of Ondo still has the corrupted name of d chief as a title.

Have you ever wondered the meaning of "Ondo"?

king92:
Pls can anybody furnish me wit how d Oba is pick cos a friend once told me dat d first child must be a male and he must not see his father(d Oba) cos he his going to be the next Oba and all Oba or aspiring Oba must not see dead body.

he is right.

Unlike other traditional rulers in Nigeria where they give names to a governor to pick, the bini king is not chosen that way.

The king must be the first Son of his father or the eldest surviving Son of his father. To be a king in bini you must come directly from the line of the present oba, you must be is first son.

Cousin, junior sons,...won't do, that is why a governor cannot chose a bini king.


And yes the Oba isn't suppose to see a dead body, it is forbidden, he doesn't attend burials, he isn't supposed to morn he is among the Spirits. If a notable Nigerian die and the bini monarch is invited, the highest he can do is to send is staff as a sign of acknowledgement. The aspiring Oba actually gets to see a corpse (that of his father) during his purification process.

I think this is another old topic and I believe you have a good handle on ir.
Jesus died for all men, but only some will accept salvation an be saved.

Syncan thanks ffor sharing

Rich4god:
lol... She knows why am looking for her....

hmmm...
E b like say she don break sumtin as usual. Hmmm

Barnabaseloka:
What of those who believed, received the Holy Spirit and were baptized?
From the words of Ananias, it is clearly seen that Paul, received his sight, was filled with the Holy Spirit and became baptized.
Cornelius and his household believed and received the Holy Spirit, before baptism.

Ananias didn't say paul received the Holyspirit before he was baptised, you are making an assumption.

Cornelius was a even totally different issue, they received the Holyspirit as Peter barely began to speak! They didn't even have the chance to believe before they receive the Spirit, peter had barely started speaking when they manifested spirit, even at that he still completed his sermon and baptised them, the cornelius case was special because God simply wanted to tell Peter that even the gentiles must receive salvation.

MuttleyLaff:
Stick to the subject and stop hinting others to learn English bro
Personally, I recommend you go over 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 to get some old school grounding on and about baptism

sorry dear, i was hinting to learning more English because you seem to be messing up a pretty clear passage.

I already read 1 cor 10 and it describes the types on baptism in the old testament, it actually wasn't discussing new testament baptism like Rm 6 and 1 pt 3, and it doesn't excuss the fact that you fluffed when you tried to give a partial quote of 1 pt 3.

Peter never said new testament baptism is a figure, he instead said the waters of noah Prefigured baptism.

Obsolete is not a stigma. Thought I have already responded to this before now

no it just means Useless, and when rites of a covenant become obsolate then we can safely conclude that covenant is finished. Since you have proposed that the covenantal rite of the new covenants are obsolate I am waiting for you to establish your personal covenant.

PS: If you havent yet, pick up Chess, you'll learn about vigilance, pick up preemptive, patience, alertness & watchfulness skills etc

I actually enjoy Chess in my spare time, have done so since my secondary school days, If we ever meet I'll probably bring a chess board just so you can show your prowess.

Barnabaseloka:
Final advice to you as a friend:
Ask God to give you the spirit of knowledge and understanding to see beyond the words used in the Scriptures This helps you to compare scripture with scripture to get balanced understanding of a matter. The way you interprete the scripture here shows your level of understanding. You are in dire need of the Holy Spirit and not human reasoning. I am still a student under the Holy Spirit, but with a more open heart than yours to understand and learn from others. Have a nice day!

hehehe,


this one cracked me up, really?

The question was simple, How did Paul receive the Holysprit when his sins hadn't yet been forgiven?

This is what happen when on speaks where the scripture didn't speak, the bible never said Paul recieved the Spirit before baptism but you manage to claim you found such claim in your personally manufactured bible, now you were asked how come he recieved the Spirit before forgiveness of sins you are telling me stories.


All this na akuko, just answer the question before you start telling stories of how you've gat the greatest spirit with the highest understanding.

Barnabaseloka:
I have told you that I do not wish to know who Calvin was? I believe the word of God and not him. I accept aanything he had said that goes in line with the word of God.
Newness of life comes at the point of being born again not during baptism. 2 Corinth. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, old things have passed away; behold all things have become new.

read you bible well.

Yes newness of Life IS FOUND IN Christ Jesus as that passage say,

rm 6 rightly teach that when we were baptised we were baptised INTO CHRIST, it goes futher to say such a person dies with Christ and rises to NEWNESS OF LIFE.

It is easy to quote 2 cor 5:17, and say whosoever is in Christ is a new creation but Rm 6 explain how and where we become new creation it says in baptism we are united to Christ and rise to newness of life.
Again I submit that to be born again is to be "repent, believ and be baptised" and it is particularly in baptism that God works the glorious work of grace in us.

To be baptised is to be born again, as 2cor 5 say, all in Christ are new creation, Rm 6 explains that it is in baptism that we are united to Christ die with him and are raised to newness of life.

The bible has explained itself the stuff you ascribe to "born again" is actually accomplished in baptism.