₦airaland Forum

SHTFguy:
an Auchi person or Akoko Edo person is closer to Kogi

actually auchi towns originated from Benin.

MiddleDimension:
the protestants on their own too never had a canon. They never organized a synod, ecumenical council or whatever to decide which book they are to read and not to read.

Remember the protestants are not a single church like the catholics are; same as the pentecostals. These people could not agree enough to have called together a council.

The Anglican church for instance was the catholic church in England before Henry VIII's issue with the pope. They were using the catholic canon at the time. When they were separating, King James subsequently issued a decree instructing some theologians in the church of England to translate the bible from the vulgate (or septugaint, i cannot remember anymore) to English language. So he followed Luther's style but this time, removed the deutrocanonicals completely from it. This is how the protestants and all those who came from them including the pentecostals and the JW, got to have 66books in their scriptures.

Amen, it seem you do know about the modern day canon

701ecilana:
Link?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
that is the writing of Ignatius of Antioch

701ecilana:
Source pls. because the last i know the Church didn't have a name until the Roman Empire adopted it as a state religion. So pls, Sourse. Pls don't tell me to believe testimonies of people.

When Nero was killing Christians, were those Christians Catholics?

1. the Church was called the Way during the middle 1st century.

2. By the late 1st century and the early 2nd century it had a name it was called the Catholic Church as can be seen from the writing of Ignatius of Antioch which @easy already reference.


3.Christianity became a state religion in the 5th century but even before then all through the 2nd, 3rd and 4th century the Church has been called the Catholic Church. And as the Way is simply the early name for the Catholic Church it follows that the 1st century church is Catholic.


4. Nero persecuted the Church about AD 64, but he wasn't even the most grievous persecutor nor did he proclaim laws for the whole empire to do so like the emperor Desius 225AD.


5. As for source I will paste the martyrs and allow them bear testimony by themselves that they were Catholics.


Ignatius of Antioch was martyr in Rome abt 107 AD

he was Catholic since he wrote the following.
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or
give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God.
Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. —
Letter to the Smyrnaeans


polycarp disciple of John the apostle AD 110

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
When finally he concluded his prayer, after
remembering all who had at any time come his
way – small folk and great folk, distinguished
and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic
Church throughout the world – the time for
departure came. So they placed him on an ass,
and brought him into the city on a great
Sabbath ( The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D.
110]).

waldigit:
The man needs special prayer for divine protection. Because they will soon chasing him with their Jesuit cult. I remember one farther ajayi in Lagos he was very close to Benny Hinn . He was assassinated in strange way after many threat to his life.

Jesuits don't chase or kill people, stop spreading conspiracy theories

please remember to pray for the repose of the soul of cardinal Carlo caffarra

PastorAIO:
I said that Phillip IV dealt with the pope. Now if you don't know that's a point against the notion that the pope had absolute power and no one could stand up to him then I'll back out of this thread cos it won't be worth my while.

Did your article mention the ecclesiastical conflicts between the various centres of roman oethodox Christianity? I.e. The conflicts between Rome, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople? Did it mention the great schism where the church split into Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox? Where does the absolute power of the papacy fit into that?

Was the Roman pope more powerful than Emperor Constantine himself, or any of the Nyzantine emperors for that matter?

Was the Roman pope more powerful than Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor?

Have you heard about the political factions in medieval Europe called the Ghibellines and the Guelfs? What did you article tell you about them? What was going on there?

help me ask am

Hier:
The truth is, catholic became the only church after the period of the persecution, catholic was never the first church, though we all have our origin from them, it was some belief by catholic that led to the division or
reformation of the church, I believe it was the right thing that could be done.

It pains me bro,and I feel your pain, but many people don't know this things and many folks need to know cause you start asking question and many have lost faith in God and tag the Bible "MYTH"

But, a time is coming when we would have it like Jesus said, Greater than this shall ye do

Do you believe in power giftings

1. the Catholic church is actually the first Church as she is linked directly to the apostles.

2. what happened at the Reformation was certainly not right it was schism and heresy, after the reformers accused the apostolic churches of heresy they all couldn't agree, they started to fight among themselves and fracturing into more and more contradictory sect. Jesus prayed may they be one, Paul taught one Faith, the reformers came and multiplied the faith and broke the oneness. that isn't a good thing.

your op isn't totally true, hope you know that.

701ecilana:
What was the name of the Church Persecuted by the Roman Empire?

Source pls.

the name is the Catholic church.


would you accept the testimony of those who were killed and their fellow Christian as valid source?

701ecilana:
Was the Islamic incursion in the 8Century?

yes dear, Islamic military activities began as soon as the 7th century with Muhammad all into the 8 century.

701ecilana:
Well. These facts are not very accurate. First and Foremost, Emperor Constantine naming a city Constantinople was purely political and nothing Christian. He didn't do it becos he wanted to see souls saved for Christ. It was his conquest.

When you mentioned Apostle Paul coming from Turkey, i was hoping you'd tell me how that is possible, but you left it to talk about the Catholic Church and their political invasions.

Listen friend. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ gave visions to Apostle John to the Churches in Asia Minor which was then Ephesus and the rest. Do a research of Ephesus, Symnah, Pergamum, Thythira Sadis, Pamphilia. Find out where these cities were and where they are now. Those cities have been morphed into different countries.

There's a lie which is circulating everywhere and making it seem like Christianity has failed or Christ is not doing enough. Listen my brother, Christ didn't come to take over cities or nations, Christ never was interested in world governments, He came for souls. And believe me, Islam may have taken the seat of power which it does immediately it gets into a place, but you maybe surprised how many Christians are in Turkey.

Satan thrives on lies and propaganda, believe me.
Muslims will have you believe there are no Christians in Saudi Arabia right? But they are.

The Catholic Church went about conquering nations and turning them to Catholic, also did Islam. They are children of the same father.

Let me blow you mind, Catholicism raised Islam. They gave islam the power it had with the hope that, when Islam was able to erase real Christianity, Islam will surrender power to them, but alas, Islam revolted against it's master and became a thorn.


And, as for Islam. They come attacking first, when you attack back, they stand back and begin to cry foul.

Without their evil plot to kill everyone and turn the world to Islam, there wouldn't have been the Crusades.

Edorgan is an ignorant or deceptive man at best.

una Protestants and conspiracy theories without base.

there was no plot, Arabia was populated by Syriac Catholics all in communion with Rome and the pope so why will the pope plot to kill them.


you seem very ignorant of how 8th century Christianity was like... about every Christian then was Catholic with very few exception... so why will the pope try to kill people who are already in communion with him?

use common sense abeg.

tartar9:
What's all the fuss about.Were your ancestors once Christians?
They made their choice and they chose Islam.Turkey is not the only country who made such decision-most Middle-eastern and North African countries were also once the centers of Christianity.

they didn't choose they were conquered.

Amberon11:
They are deceiving themselves cuz I don't even see them as Christians. After persecuting and killing Christians they are still hypocritical enough to always mention that their occult gathering is the only true church. Shame!

you have your history upside down.
the Roman empire persecuted the Roman
Catholics aka the Roman Christians. the Roman
empire was later converted to Christianity after
the emperor Constantine gave Christian freedom.
the Roman empire is responsible for killing
Jesus, Paul and even Peter not the Roman
Christians/Catholics. actually the Roman empire
killed and persecuted the Roman Catholics.


the Catholic church is still the Church of the apostles.

cstr1000:
The Romans killed christ. The Roman catholic church is in rome and was founded by Romans.

you have your history upside down.
the Roman empire persecuted the Roman
Catholics aka the Roman Christians. the Roman
empire was later converted to Christianity after
the emperor Constantine gave Christian freedom.
the Roman empire is responsible for killing
Jesus, Paul and even Peter not the Roman
Christians/Catholics. actually the Roman empire
killed and persecuted the Roman Catholics.


the Church in Rome was founded by the apostles Peter and Paul... they were Jews not romans.

danyaril2yahoo:
This is a clear evidence that Roman catholic is not christianity.

you have your history upside down.
the Roman empire persecuted the Roman
Catholics aka the Roman Christians. the Roman
empire was later converted to Christianity after
the emperor Constantine gave Christian freedom.
the Roman empire is responsible for killing
Jesus, Paul and even Peter not the Roman
Christians/Catholics. actually the Roman empire
killed and persecuted the Roman Catholics

UnchangeableGod:
Sir, Romans 15:15,16 says and I quote "I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God that I should be the MINISTER of Christ to the Gentiles, MINISTERING the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost". The keywords there are minister and ministry, not priesthood. The priesthood is your own coinage to justify the practice of the Old Testament priesthood in the New Testament. The New Testament ministry has nothing to do with the compulsory putting on of particular white robes and other coloured garments like Aaron in order to minister in the sanctuary. It has nothing to do with the lighting of candles and the burning of incense. There is no dogma of religious ritual in the New Testament. There is no title as the 'Reverend Father' in the New Testament.The laying on of human hands though important, is not the point. Paul was commissioned by God having been converted from a religiously sinning Pharisee to s saint of God. The Apostles and the 70 are no more. God is still calling people to minister to others today. He can pick from the farms, streets, colleges and universities, football field, stadiums, even club houses or hotels. There is no fixed formular for God's choice or calling. But the basic thing is that they must answer the call to salvation from sin and faith in Christ. They must also be willing to be taught. If God finds them suitable in His infinite wisdom, He commissions them. There is nothing like 'successor of the Apostles'. It is a self-imposed title some groups give themselves to have a false claim to monopoly of the ministry. The pastor in my Assembly was chosen by God to minister in His house. God Himself has been bearing witness to His calling over his life and ministry (Hebrews 2:4). You can petition God if you feel he is and others are not among the 'successors of the Apostles' and as such not qualified to minister. Thank you.

in case your translation is confusing you, this is the Greek .


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2418: ἱερουργέω
ἱερουργέω , ἱερούργω; (from ἱερουργός,
and this from ἱερός and ἘΡΓΩ ); to be busied
with sacred things; to perform sacred rites
(Philo, Herodian); used especially of
persons sacrificing (Josephus, Antiquities 7,
13, 4, etc.); translated, to minister in the
manner of a priest, minister in priestly
service:



Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

From a compound of hieron and the base of
ergon; to be a temple-worker, i.e. Officiate
as a priest

mccoy47:
Those businesses can't fund a university!
Anyway what's my business. Atleast he's not getting it from public funds

you don't known mbaka net worth and fr Ede has been running his ministry much longer than mbaka

damariox:
The question for you is.. Which church is guided by this holy spirit? I can boldly say is the marcion canon that declared first declared a new testament and an old testament, condemning the Jewish canon as evil and allien to the god of the new testament.
There's Catholic canon
Eastern orthodox church canon
Ethiopian canon
Synod of Jerusalem canon
All these mentioned canons has less or more books added to to it? Is the holy spirit confused? I guess the canon you call inspired is the pentecostal canon, right?
What about the others?

this only arise when someone is ignorant of how the canon was formed.


the canon of an apostolic Church is simply the list of books a lawfully ordained bishop or even a legitimate synod of bishops agree to be read in Church. that simply means the church accepted books only generally. ..it was left for each individual Bishop to set what his Church accepts.

in general the Septuagint was accepted as the normative old testament writing because that is what the apostles used, the new testament has about 20 basic books and 7 disputed book, again it is the work of each legitimate Bishop to set his canon. any legitimate Bishop in an ancient Church is a successor of the apostles and has the authority to set a canon that is authoritative for his Church.


this means that from ancient times the bishops of Rome, Antioch or even Constantinople could worship together and celebrate the liturgy together and even agree with each other on every dogma even though they had different canons. and each of those canons is authoritative for each respective church.


the Catholic canon is the canon of the council of hippo and Carthage 4th century, a similar one is produced by the synod of Jerusalem and the same canon is confirmed in the council of Trent. that ancient canon is the one I use and it is authoritative for the western Church.



this is the canon I use


Canon XXIV. (Greek xxvii.)
That nothing be read in church besides the
Canonical Scripture.
ITEM, that besides the Canonical Scriptures
nothing be read in church under the name of
divine Scripture.
But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:
Genesis.
Exodus.
Leviticus.
Numbers.
Deuteronomy.
Joshua the Son of Nun.
The Judges.
Ruth.
The Kings, iv. books.
The Chronicles, ij. books.
Job.
The Psalter.
The Five books of Solomon.
The Twelve Books of the Prophets.
Isaiah.
Jeremiah.
Ezechiel.
Daniel.
Tobit.
Judith.
Esther.
Ezra, ij. books.
Macchabees, ij. books.
THE NEW TESTAMENT.
The Gospels, iv. books.
The Acts of the Apostles, j. book.
The Epistles of Paul, xiv.
The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle, ij.
The Epistles of John the Apostle, iij.
The Epistles of James the Apostle, j.
The Epistle of Jude the Apostle, j.
The Revelation of John, j. book.
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow
bishop, Boniface, and to the other bishops of
those parts, that they may confirm this canon,
for these are the things which we have received
from our fathers to be read in church.


council of hippo

cstr1000:
It is also funny how the Roman catholic Church is now regarded as the only church.
These are the guys that killed Jesus, Slaughtered Christians in their thousands, fed them to lions, and beheaded hundreds including the apostles.
Now they are the custodian of Christianity.

you have your history upside down.


the Roman empire persecuted the Roman Catholics aka the Roman Christians. the Roman empire was later converted to Christianity after the emperor Constantine gave Christian freedom.


the Roman empire is responsible for killing Jesus, Paul and even Peter not the Roman Christians/Catholics. actually the Roman empire killed and persecuted the Roman Catholics .

mccoy47:
The 1st question should be how did a rev father get the funds to build not just 1 but 2 universities!

it is called a ministry. Catholic priest with a ministry are allowed to invest money in any legitimate venture. mbaka has a water and soft drink company..., the bishop can question you if you are spending the money on yourself but if are investing it, he doesn't care. so yes fr Ede has schools.

besides I hear fr Ede's Bishop gave him approval to begin his own religious community... that means he has financial autonomy.

talk2percy:
Isorite, u will unfortunately die by ur mistake. Buh this should also sound as a warning to priests that goes out without wearing their sultan- only if u'd worn ur white sultan or roman collar...it would have perhaps saved u...they saw u looking fresh and on mufti too... Faa chee na I bu nwa Malay bu nku.

I have to agree, maybe this will encourage more priests to either wear a cassock or a Roman collar to avoid such mistakes .

johnydon22:
In other words the bible is more theological than historical

Amen

damariox:
if one affirms any sort of infallibility for the Church’s determination of the canon by any process), how can one deny it to the Church’s theology?

I don't deny infallibility for the church's theology so I guess the question isn't for me.

BlueAngel444:
really, I would like links to those threads. Thanks

sorry I can't go thread digging.... I do remember that each time I was in a tithing thread I expressed similar thought even though not in so many words.

Joagbaje:
They were quoted in the new testament as well



I have read the book of Enoch and the book of jasher to a great extent



The church fathers did for the new testament . soe of the books were missing before until the were found in the cave of cumram apart from the dead sea scrolls. some of the jewish leaders rejected some books because it talks about jesus

the church fathers did set the entire canon. but why do you think that because a book was quoted by an apostle then it must be scripture.

rottennaija:
Sure, I do and I also understand it's significance. Jws believe that after the dead of the apostles, apostasy started. By their current doctrine, there where no true Christian from that time, first century till Russell came on board in 1800s. Basically, the period covering 1900 was a period of darkness, no one worship God or very few.

The problem is that if their congecture is true or half true, it's mean we can't even trust what we call the holy Bible. Because it's during the third century that the church fathers, those who the jw doctrine called apostate Christian, that actually selected what we know to make up the books of the Bible today.

So how can we trust the Bible. Assembled by apostate church fathers under the control of Satan? I'm still waiting to see how the gb of jw will spin their story around this

not just Jehovah's witness, most Protestant churches believe that the church fell into apostasy after the death of the apostles ask any Protestant pastor. some say 100yrs, later others say 300yrs, others say since Constantine, but all of the call Jesus a liar indirectly since they claim the devil took over the church after Jesus clearly say the gates of hell will never prevail against the church.


it is funny because every Protestant Church begin under the assumption that the gates of hell prevailed, hence the need to form new churches allegedly better than the older ones.

damariox:
How? Individual Scriptures didn't tell us about a collection of various books to form a library

the Church is established by Jesus with the power of binding and losing, he promised to be with her always and promised to give her the holy spirit to lead her into all Truth. with that I make bold to say that the church has the authority to gather whatever books she believes edifies and from the canon of scripture as she is led by the holy spirit .


the church is authoritative and I believe infallible whenever she authoritatively declare the Christian truth. she is and was authoritative when she declared the canon of scripture at the council of hippo and Carthage, she was authoritative when she confirmed the same canon at the council of Florence and the Lateran council, she was authoritative when she confirmed and closed the canon at the council of Trent. she is guided by the holy spirit, she has authority.

damariox:
That was a mistake and it seems i can't modify the comment. Council of trent was 1549AD. I meant to say 500 years ago not AD

The first attempt on Christian or NT Scriptures Cannon was "marcion canon "
It was his heresies that gave need or rise for a Canon that will encompass both the Jewish established canon and Christian Scriptures. The earliest known canon was meito, Bishop of Sardis (170ce) without the book of Esther

2nd century canon was the muratorian
And it survived until the 16th century declaration of a closed canon in council of trent (Martin Luther) similar with the 2nd century muratorian

What did these bishops or church fathers considered for criterion for determining canon and ordering to close it? Was is power play or Providence?
[code]
our faith in the Bible Cannon cannot be greater than our trust in the church because they determined it

the Muratorium itself was a local canon, it was superceded by the canon of the council of hippo and Carthage.

the muratorian canon didn't have 1st and 2nd Peter, nor James, it wasn't read in those Church....
hence the church fathers in council of hippo and Carthage put forth the complete canon.

OLAADEGBU:
At least you place your church tradition on the same level if not above the inspired Word of God, no?



"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11)

Jesus Christ is the foundation not the apostles and there is nothing like the apostolic succession, if you say there is prove it scripturally.

this happens when people don't read the complete Bible but go about shouting what their pastor said.


New Living Translation
Together, we are his house, built on the
foundation of the apostles and the prophets.
And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.

eph 2:20



the Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and Christ is a the chief corner stone

next time try not to contradict the Bible .

the apostles themselves appointed and ordained successors, who are you then to claim there is no apostolic succession?

analice107:
My dear, i have the Bible with those books, they hardly relate with other Bible books. Judith for instance, stands alone and even contradicts some books like Jeremiah Daniel and Nehemiah.

The Cities mentioned there never existed outside that book, the names mentioned there, History doesn't know them, unlike those in Jeremiah, Daniel and Nehemiah

this happens to people who treat the bible like a history book... the Bible is not a history book and it does contradict itself sometimes, the bible isn't a book for archeology, history, or even geographical fact... it may contain such as accidentals but the Bible isn't primarily a history book or an archeological book or geography book it is a covenant book and it details the relationship between God and his people in whatever genre the writer is inspired to use.


now with that information maybe you can now go back and read Judith and see in it the expression of faith in God who saves mightily even through human instruments.

OLAADEGBU:
So you didn't read the OP before you jumped to conclusion? Maybe you are the sissy we are searching for.

or maybe you didn't bother to read your own op,because the question was answered there.