₦airaland Forum

johnw74:
duh uben you are twisting - lying again
the issue is the rcc saying works along with faith is needed for salvation, not that it is God who does the good works in a saved Christian, oh lying one

now you are lying against the Catholic church. well done

johnw74:
duh uben, you are twisting - lying again

no, the books of the Bible are not satanic, like the rcc is satanic,

you see, the books of the Bible were written by God inspired prophets,
and of course the rcc didn't write any of them

the rcc put some scriptures together into one book, some were inspired,
and some are considered by Christians not to be, and of course Christians don't use the roman catholic bible,
only satans church does

what satan does is, he mixes truth with lies to gain disciples,
it works for him, he has over a billion disciples in the rcc alone

go and make your own new testament, stop using the one Satan's Church compiled

johnw74:
ha ha, you think the bread and wine Jesus fed His apostles was literally Jesus flesh and blood

u no understand the Bible, but how could a Bible hater understand it,
did you see where you hate God too, God even said so, and of course if you hate His word then you hate Him:

Exo_20:5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

he took bread and said that is his body. go and argue with him

LifestyleTonite:
I believe you are correct.

The WOMAN spoken of can be Mary, the Church and also Israel.

Mary gave birth to Jesus. And since Jesus is the child spoken of, we can't dispute Mary as a candidate in the case.

The Church is a spiritual thing here. It consists of Christians and Israelites whom the devil has been attacking since he couldn't get to Jesus. But I don't know how the church gave birth to Jesus.

Israel is a candidate cos it produce Jesus Christ and also the church. Now that Jesus has been taken to heaven, Satan has been using muslims and Arabs to persecute Israel with the aim of wiping them of the earth. That is why it is recorded that the WOMAN was standing on top of a moon. Moon being the symbol of Islam shows the victory of Christianity and Israel over Islam and the Antichrist religion. The WOMAN having 12 stars on her head is symbolic for the 12 tribes of Israel.

This all means that Satan will persecute Israel and Christians, a thing he is already doing and will increase the meter soon.

the church gave birth to Christ but not the present Church.


A Catholic exegete will teach that the Church didn't just begin with the Christian Church... The first assembly of God... the first congregation adopted by God was Israel, that is the first Church, when Jesus died he took over the kingdom and established the church in his own body, so we are the new Israel, we have surpassed and transcended the old Israel.

so the woman is is the people of God for all times, both the old Israel and the new Israel is still Israel, the old has 12 tribes the new has 12 apostles.... so that the old Israel brought forth the Christ and the new Israel is persecuted...

it become even more interesting if you look at it through the eyes of the early Christian writings that see Mary as both a type of the old Israel and a type of the new Israel...and she is the one who actually gave birth to Christ.


So a Catholic may agree to each sense.

Nodogragra4me:
Really, there is no financial institution callled the Catholic Church ... very laughable excuse .... so is there any that is called living faith church?

That means that those who promoted the Catholic university of Nigeria, Abuja and collected second collection in my church in warri back then were scammers working with the church leaders since warri diocese does not extend to Abuja
The jingles for fund raising launching was actually aired then on network news of NTA with chief launchers and fathers of the day



How many of the few wealthy dioceses runs a university and what is their feee like

yes there is a financial entity known as living faith Church and should the government tax churches it could tax it as a whole.

the university to be located in abuja is a work of the Catholic Secretariat... one day is set aside usually in Nigeria for the launching and the proceeds go to the Secretariat for the university as agreed by the cbcn. apart from that agreed date money in diocese remains in the diocese.

Megatrix:
You should be ashamed of the so called 2000 yrs history of your blood sucking church. The Catholic church was the single most murderous organization in human history accounting for the deaths of millions who don't conform to the Catholic doctrine in Europe and the crusades in the middle east. The history of the Inquisition is there for anyone to read. Am I going to talk about the current scandal of covering up rampant sexual molestation of children by Catholic priests? Or the numerous lies of supposed miracles by your church. One of the most ridiculous being that Pilate's stairs was somehow miraculously transferred from Jerusalem to Rome and those who ascend it praying on their kness get absolution from their supposed sins. I don't how anyone can be proud of the disgraceful history of the Catholic church

you guys are so quick in condemning things you know little about... maybe if not for the crusades that defended Christians which you so quickly condemn you will be a Muslim by now

zionmade1:
The only history of Christianity i know is from Acts-revelation. Is there any other one u want me to know?
Do u know how long the kingdom of satan has lasted? Does it make it Godly?
U guys are fond of repeating the line "your pastor your pastor" then i ask bring up bible portions to back up ur evidence and u will go mute.

God doesnt love Mary more than he loves me, Mary is not part of the God-head, Mary's position in heaven is the same position all other apostles have, Is there any special throne for mary? Why did non of the apostles have any vision of Mary?


Do u know its an insult for ur son to go to ur mother to tell her to go and tell u to do something for him? It indicates that u are either a bad father or u didnt train the child well. So tell me wat i dont know

I guess for you Christianity ended with revelation..
are you aware that for 300 yrs there was no Bible until the church compiled? that the apostles bequeathed their teaching to trusted men who were tasked to teach others? and that the church existed well before the Bible? are you even aware the Bible doesn't even claim to record all Jesus did not to talk of all the apostles taught and did nor does it claim to catalog all Christian practices established by the apostles?

these details which are easily found in the writing of Christians from that period.

the fact that you hold a Bible alone doctrine is the reason you have a myopic view of Christianity.

johnw74:
duh uben, none of the writers of the Bible, Moses Matthew etc. etc. etc. were part of satans rc church
and who cares if the rcc put all of those books into one book, so have very many others, duh uben.

hehehe there were over 100 different books used in church then, please tell me how you will figure which one is correct if not for the Catholic church.



if you dislike the Catholic church as you claim and consider it to be satanic, go and chose your own books and make your own Bible.


if the church is satanic as you say then the Bible she compiled and preserved is satanic too, either you go collect your own books and make your own new testament or keep shut

johnw74:
oh duh again uben, that's because once a person is saved through faith
then God does good works in us, and just like the faith was God given
so it is that God does the works in us, we can take no credit at all for salvation

when i say "we" i am definately not referring to you, but to other Christians.

did the Catholic church teach that it isn't God who does the good work in us or are you just arguing with yourself?


enjoy
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

johnw74:
ha ha, since Jesus didn't literally give His body and blood to the Apostles to eat and drink,
then the words "body and blood" are used symbolically as explained in the very short and
very easy to understand article



not so easy for the blinded though:

2Co_4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Jesus said This is my body, this is my blood. you can go and argue with him and tell him he was mistaken it is only symbolic

zionmade1:
Mary mother of God?
It has finished. Is there any greater level of idolatory than that?

Mary gave birth to my Lord and God, Christ Jesus, do you disagree?

johnydon22:
for all we know it is down to subjective interpretation as can an part in the bible. You are no more correct or wrong than the catholics

the interesting part is that Catholics believe that a Bible passage may be RIGHTLY interpreted in more than one sense.

so if I were a teacher in my Catholic church I could very well teach that the metaphors in rev 12 is about the church as a mother in the allegorical sense and my parish priest will totally agree. the next day I could say that same passage refers to Mary in its most literal form and he will still agree.... Catholicism allows a both/and interpretation of scriptures

but of course it is always funny to watch Protestant perform their mental gymnastics when they claim a woman gave birth to Jesus but go to great lengths to deny that she is Mary.

ScienceWatch:
Let me say from the outset that I have the greatest respect for Islam and all other religions. Here I am only addressing the OP's attempt to make a bad practice acceptable.

You say that according to the catholic encyclopedia, Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 when she married the 99 years old Joseph.

This is a lie. Neither Joseph nor Mary's age was never disclosed in any bible. It is well known that the Catholic Church was burdened with Homo-sexuality. It seems that they were keeping the door open for Pedophilia ( Sex with babies) in case their priests lust got the better of them.

A baby girl of 5 to 9 yrs is not developed enough physically or emotionally for a sexual relationship now or 6,000 yrs ago. A wise man will never take a baby away from its mothers care. He will wait for the appropriate time unless he cant control his lust. It is only the sin of lust that birth such horrors.

It may be accepted practice in a community to marry 5yr to 9yr old babies, but a wise man will never engage in such practices.

It may be accepted practice to sell drugs in certain communities, but a wise man will never engage in such activities.

A WISE MAN WILL NEVER MARRY A BABY !

do not be too authoritative about issues you know little about.


actually in ancient times when a woman reaches puberty she is ripe for marriage... this was common among both Jews Turks and Europeans and even Africans. the practice ended in the west after the Catholic church decreed that it was mandatory for the marrying parties to reach the age of reason before a marriage can be valid.


so be corrected, the Catholic church actually stopped the practice of child bride... talking about pedophilia, are you aware that so many Protestant pastor were implicated in the same sin? don't be too quick to throw stones.

enjoy


https://newrepublic.com/article/142999/silence-lambs-protestants-concealing-catholic-size-sexual-abuse-scandal

http://www.awkwardmomentsbible.com/shocking-pastors-on-the-prowl/

Nodogragra4me:
Catholic church is yet to have a proper University in Nigeria even with membership cutting across the length and breath of the country.

They collected license many years ago but where is the school. How many private University do you have in Nigeria being runned by business men

Why is Anambra state not littered with universities since it is profitable ... How many University in the entire East is owned by individuals even the your assumed profitability ... Old.monies like Iwuayanwu are yet to join Afe Babalola and Adeleke to own one

that is because there is no financial institution called the Catholic church.

some of the money in branches of Protestant Churches end up in their head quarters , in Catholicism every diocese is autonomous... unless you have a very very rich diocese it would be stupid to build a university....

there are few Catholic dioceses with such funds

BluntBoy:
Only God can make rules and break them. But you mere mortals, who told you to bow down to images? Or are you now comparing yourselves to God?

God can't be righteous if he breaks his own rules, or are you ignorant of the Holiness and perfection of God?

Halo22:
According to Martin-Luther king; you are not fit to do what you don't know the reason for doing. Am sorry but most roman catholics do not know the origin of their worship standard. They believe that it has been like that from begining and will remain like that forever. Am sure that if they visit Rome and see for real what they are copying, they will be forced to change denomination. But to their tent for now. I rest my case.

actually when a Catholic says his worship pattern has been so from the beginning he is right and can prove it historically through the writings of the church fathers from that period.

BluntBoy:
Why don't you provide evidence that Mary should be worshipped?

The Roman Catholic Church is evil. This evil church persecuted the real Christians in the past. This evil Church killed the likes of Tyndale, Wycliffe for daring to translate the Bible into the common people's language. Many other Christians like Rogers and Hus were also killed. King James IV and V (of the King James Version fame) was almost assassinated. What were the crimes of these men and other Christians that were persecuted by the evil Catholic Church?

are you aware Tyndale was actually killed by Anglicans, Wycliffe died a natural death, he was condemned for heresy post mortem

John Huss on the other hand was a Catholic priest who was found guilty of heresy hand was handed over to his country for punishment according to their laws. the punishment for heresy in Bohemia then was death.

johnw74:
Jesus’ Body and Blood

Jesus said when he broke the bread that “this is my body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of me.” After the meal, he took the cup (of wine) and said, “this cup is the new testament in my blood” (Luke 22:19 & 20). As often as we do this, we proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes again. These are symbols of his body and blood just as when he said, “I am the door.” His body was not really made of wood with hinges and a latch. In the same way, the Passover feast was symbolic of the first Passover feast in Egypt where the blood of the Lambs saved the first-born of the Jews in bondage in Egypt. The bread and wine are symbols of Jesus, our Passover Lamb.

However, the Catholic Church says that the bread is actually the real body of Jesus. After the priest blesses the bread (wafer), he raises it up before the congregation and says, “Behold, the lamb of God”. When he gives it to the members he says, “The body of Christ.” Catholicism teaches that “the Eucharist is a sacrament which really, truly, and substantially contains the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ under the appearances of bread and wine. It is the great sacrament of God’s love in which Christ is eaten, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge is given to us of future glory.” (Question & Answer Catholic Catechism #1214). “The Eucharist is necessary for salvation.” (Q&A Catechism, #1217).

True Catholics believe that when you eat the bread and drink the wine you are actually eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood, even though it tastes like bread and wine. The Roman Catholic Church uses the word “transubstantiation,” which refers to the communion bread and wine turning into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus when blessed by the Catholic Father (Q&A, #1224). “Christ is present in the Eucharist not only with everything that makes him a man, but with all that makes him this human being. He is therefore present with all his physical properties, hands and feet and head and human heart. He is present with his human soul, with his thoughts, desires, and human affections.” (Q&A, #1223). The Roman Catholic Church proclaims that its members are literally eating their Jesus.

Because of this false interpretation of the scriptures, the Catholic Church is encouraging false, idol worship of these inanimate objects. The Roman Catholic Church sets up inanimate objects (the bread and wine) as objects of worship and adoration. Because they worship and adore these objects they qualify as idols. Since Jesus said, “I am the door,” and “I am the true vine,” this most holy Catholic sacrament is the same as worshipping a door or a vine as if it were Jesus himself.

The Jesus of the Roman Catholic Church is a dead victim (an idol) who is sacrificed on their altar and eaten by true Catholics at masses world wide. Thus, Jesus’ work of salvation was not finished on the cross, but is an ongoing work of sacrifice on their altars. The Jesus of the Bible declared his work of atonement to be completed on the cross: “It is Finished!” (John 19:30). Jesus gave his life as a sacrifice for sins, offering his body once for all (Hebrews 10:10-12). The real Jesus is no longer hanging dead on the cross but was resurrected from death to life. Because he has eternal life, he can never be sacrificed or die again (Romans 6:9-10). The real Jesus can not be eaten. Because the Roman Catholic Church is eating their Jesus, they have identified and are following a phony Jesus.

please where does the Bible say those are symbol ? or you just assumed it

johnydon22:
No, but one thing constant in everything is evolution, even ideas evolve, doctrines are modified and dogmas revised. So i do believe that females will one day be ordained priests of the catholic church and sometime along that line reach the seat of papacy. with the rate things are going now that won't be too far away but the papacy for a woman may take longer


yes

this part doesn't change it is dogma. Catholic church doesn't change dogma

johnw74:
continue:

Good Works

According to Roman Catholicism, once a person is baptized and his original sin is removed, he must perform good works because they are also necessary for salvation.

”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).
“The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).
" . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'" (CCC 2068).

Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).
“If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process.
Biblical Response

Salvation in Roman Catholic Salvation is a system of works combined with faith. But, what does the Bible say about salvation when it comes to faith and works? It separates them and clearly says that works are not part of becoming saved.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." (Rom. 3:28-30).
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:1-5).
"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal. 2:16).

So we can see that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. Did you also know that adding works to salvation is condemned in scripture?

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
"Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal. 5:2-4).
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (Matt. 7:22-23).

In Gal. 3:1-3 above, Paul is clearly teaching that the Galatians were fools. Why? They were adding works to the work of the Holy Spirit. In Gal. 5:2-4, Paul tells them if they received circumcision, that they would not be under grace. Circumcision represented the works of the Law, and Paul clearly tells them that just getting circumcised (not doing good works) would damn them. Why? Because it was a symbol of keeping the Law. That is why Paul had previously said in Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Finally, in Matt. 7:22-23 we see an account where Jesus condemns people on the day of judgment. Why would they be condemned? They were appealing to their faith in Christ and their works for their salvation on "bad day." By adding any works into the active salvation, it means that the work of God is not sufficient, but that it needs to be perfected--completed by human effort. This is why salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It cannot be by faith and any of our works.

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

matt slick

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so
faith without works is dead also.

ikorodureporta:
I always wonder when i see d nun attached to d priests during visitation hours. Both of dem ar always in d room as h & w..

nuns don't attached to priests.... they live separate lives

QuietHammer:
What is their work IN THE CHURCH?

the Church is the congregation, the assembly, the ecclesia. caring for the sick and vulnerable is working in the church the body of Christ.

ebenice:
thanks for making me laugh

you're most welcome.

its my pleasure.

johnw74:
God's word - the Bible is indeed proof

but not to you uben who belong to satans church,
you who go on and on about the rcc compiling the Bible
but don't believe much of what is said in it

if you don't believe some of God's inspired word then you don't believe it is God's inspired word
the rcc is just another sect honoring deceased persons through statues made to them
you are pagans and cannot see it, because you hate truth, your god has blinded you:

2Co_4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

.

oh, you want to explain how God used a Satan organization to set the canon of scriptures, to preserve and translate it.

please which is harder to believe,

a. the holy Bible came from Satan's organization.
b. the church of Christ set the canon, translated and preserved the Bible.



now let me see those Protestant mental gymnastics

blueAgent:
They Study theology and yet can not understand simple Bible verses.

Lets start with the youtube videos i posted on this article, you can refute the occult symbolisms in them.

sorry dear, I did click your link and saw it has several videos but I won't be watching any conspiracy theories. any point you think they make you may bring here and I'll try to listen but sorry, I have heard enough Protestant conspiracy theories to last me a lifetime, I won't waste time watching another.


as for the verses you seem worried about, I can assure you that those verses have been explained rightly for 2000 years of the historic Christian faith and it is your end time 21 century churches which interpret them incorrectly

ebenice:
can you ask him for me?
Or better still tell me yourself

nah have a nice day arguing with Paul

OLAADEGBU:
Are you saying elders, bishops, pastors and popes are the same?

actually a pope is simply a Bishop, he is also a presbyter and a pastor.

though not every presbyter is a bishop.

I note 3 functions and ministries important for the every day function of the Church I.e the deacon, the presbyter and the bishop.


they are not all the same, a deacon is not a presbyter or a bishop.
a presbyter isn't a deacon... he may be a bishop.
a bishop isn't a deacon but he certainly is a presbyter.


they are not all the same but in each case they are appointed and ordained by successors of the apostles.


who ordained your pastor?

OLAADEGBU:
If you want to agree with the Bible then you better start reading it.

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues" (1 Corinthians 12:28).

The verse quoted above says: "first apostles." It did not say elders which is different from apostles. The gift of apostleship lasted only as long as apostle John was living. One of its prerequisites was that of seeing the resurrected Christ in person.

"Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1).

Did any of your popes see the resurrected Christ? The idea of an apostolic succession in later centuries is without Biblical support, but the missionary in some measure is similar in function.

no one said the successors saw Jesus you are arguing with yourself. the apostles ordained successors for the ministry and gave the authority in the church.

Titus 1:5–1:5
5 I left you behind in Crete for this reason, so
that
you should put in order what remained to be
done, and should appoint elders in every town, as
I directed you:
1 Timothy 1:3–1:3
3 I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to
Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you
may instruct certain people not to teach any
different doctrine,
, “And what you heard from
me through many witnesses entrust to faithful
people who will have the ability to teach
others as well” (2 Timothy 2:2
“They [the Apostles] appointed presbyters for
them in each church” (Acts 14:23



who appointed the pastor of your church? who ordained him?

Themandator:
Pope Innocent 111 started the practice of confession in 1215 ..... Read Cardinal Newman on the pagan origin of your practices .... He wrote his book in 1824.He gave his book to the church to edit but they could find any issue with his finding and told him they can't edit it.

here I challenge you to tell us the book in which John Henry Newman made such claim and provide the quote in its context.

I have read not more than 2 books written by card. Newman, he was an Anglican priest who converted to Catholicism and is pretty intelligent, I have a feeling you are misquoting him.

should it be different then it would be that he was only mistaken since the practice of confession has been in the Church from the beginning, note the following documents

The Didache – The Earliest Christian Catechism
(pre-dating some of the canonical writings of the
New Testament)
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to
your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the
way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather
together, break bread, and give thanks, after
confessing your transgressions so that your
sacrifice may be pure”
(Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make
a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend
by bringing them together. You shall confess
your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil
conscience. This is the way of light”
(Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
St. Ignatius of Antioch
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ
are also with the bishop. And as many as shall,
in the exercise of penance, return into the unity
of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God,
that they may live according to Jesus Christ”
(Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 106]).
“For where there is division and wrath, God does
not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord
grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to
the unity of God, and to communion with the
bishop”
(ibid., .
St. Irenaeus of Lyons
“[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded
many women. . . . Their consciences have been
branded as with a hot iron. Some of these
women make a public confession [of their
previous heresy/sins], but others are ashamed to
do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from
themselves the hope of the life of God, they
either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the
two courses”
(Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian of Carthage
“[Regarding confession, some] flee from this
work as being an exposure of themselves, or
they put it off from day to day. I presume they
are more mindful of modesty than of salvation,
like those who contract a disease in the more
shameful parts of the body and shun making
themselves known to the physicians; and thus
they perish along with their own bashfulness”
(Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
St. Hippolytus of Rome
“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the
new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power
which comes from you, from your royal Spirit,
which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus
Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy
apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom
you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power]
to feed your holy flock and to serve without
blame as your high priest, ministering night and
day to propitiate unceasingly before your face
and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church,
and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have
the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your
command”
(Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).
Origen of Alexandria
“[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and
laborious [is] the remission of sins through
penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink
from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and
from seeking medicine, after the manner of him
who say, ‘I said, “To the Lord I will accuse
myself of my iniquity”’”
(Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).
St. Cyprian of Carthage
“The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and
says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the
cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the
body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But
[the impenitent] spurn and despise all these
warnings; before their sins are expiated, before
they have made a confession of their crime,
before their conscience has been purged in the
ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they
do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and
with their hands and mouth they sin against the
Lord more than when they denied him”
(The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are
they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of
God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow,
making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I
beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has
sinned confess his sin while he is still in this
world, while his confession is still admissible,
while the satisfaction and remission made
through the priests are still pleasing before the
Lord”
(ibid., 28).
“[S]inners may do penance for a set time, and
according to the rules of discipline come to
public confession, and by imposition of the hand
of the bishop and clergy receive the right of
Communion. [But now some] with their time [of
penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to
Communion, and their name is presented; and
while the penitence is not yet performed,
confession is not yet made, the hands of the
bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the
Eucharist is given to them; although it is written,
‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup
of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body
and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]“
(Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).
“And do not think, dearest brother, that either the
courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that
martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance
is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of
peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent.
. . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance
is granted by us, and peace is given”
(ibid., 51[55]:20).
“But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to
think that repentance is not to be granted to the
lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied
to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember
whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the
first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to
him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord
exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of
penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver
from death’ [Tob. 12:9]“
(ibid., 51[55]:22).
St. Aphraahat the Persian
“You [priests], then, who are disciples of our
illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny
a curative to those in need of healing. And if
anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him
the remedy of repentance. And he that is
ashamed to make known his weakness,
encourage him so that he will not hide it from
you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not
make it public, lest because of it the innocent
might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and
by those who hate us”
(Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).
St. Basil the Great
“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to
whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is
entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found
to have done it before the saints. It is written in
the Gospel that they confessed their sins to
John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18]
they confessed to the apostles”
(Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).
St. John Chrysostom
“Priests have received a power which God has
given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was
said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever
you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers
have indeed the power of binding; but they can
only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind
with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and
transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give
them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you
shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them;
whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’
What greater power is there than this? The
Father has given all judgment to the Son. And
now I see the Son placing all this power in the
hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23].
They are raised to this dignity as if they were
already gathered up to heaven”
(The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).
St. Ambrose of Milan
“For those to whom [the right of binding and
loosing] has been given, it is plain that either
both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is
allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither
is allowed to heresy. For this right has been
granted to priests only”
(Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).
St. Jerome of Stridonium
“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly,
he infects that person with the venom of sin.
And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence
and does not do penance, and does not want to
confess his wound . . . then his brother and his
master, who have the word [of absolution] that
will cure him, cannot very well assist him”
(Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).
St. Augustine of Hippo
“When you shall have been baptized, keep to a
good life in the commandments of God so that
you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I
do not tell you that you will live here without sin,
but they are venial sins which this life is never
without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For
light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer
was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins
on account of which you would have to be
separated from the body of Christ. Perish the
thought! For those whom you see doing penance
have committed crimes, either adultery or some
other enormities. That is why they are doing
penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer
would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the
Church, therefore, there are three ways in which
sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in
the greater humility of penance”
(Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15,
8:16 [A.D. 395]).



this clearly show Christian practicing confession from the 1st century. so you're incorrect.

I'm still waiting for the quote from Newman.

Themandator:
Bringing Paul's statement in the book of Corinthians proves you have little understanding of what your focus is on this subject matter .... Did the man enter a box to confess his sin .... Did he first confess his sinin to them.

actually the Corinthian case is very much on point... it clearly shows an apostle declaring a sin forgiven with the authority of Christ and it has nothing to do with illness. it clearly shows that sins aren't only declared forgiven only during healings as you claimed. here an apostle declare a sin forgiven without reference to an ailment.

again you seem ignorant of the fact that confession isn't limited to a box, in fact it can happen anywhere and in ancient times it was done right before the assembly in some Christian churches, those communities only stopped public confession when some people started to use it for blackmail purpose.

How you insist on something that Jesus , the master, the teacher never practiced is beyond me .....Did Jesus gave sins ...yes ...Was it recorded , yes ...How did he so it?

When he handed this authority, he was already heaven bound... This was after his death and resurrection..... The things they saw him do would be their natural guide in their ministry

lol did Jesus read from a new testament or solemnise Sunday... did he teach in gentile country? the apostles and disciples wrote a new testament, worshipped on Sundays, and taught in gentile lands, they had the holy spirit who guided them in organising the Church. even Paul who didn't see the Lord while on earth received by revelation. besides the Gospels didn't claim to record every time Jesus forgave sin for you to claim Paul made a mistake when he declared forgiveness even without ailment

the translation you are using has translated that passage incompletely the original Greek says ἐξομολογεῖσθε o v ἀλλήλοις τὰς ἁμαρτίας

which literally says
confess therefore/by extension to one another the sins...
it is translated as
therefore confess your sin to one another...

the Greek worked o v is translated as therefore or So or by extension and that is missing from the Bible translation you are using... that is why you seem ignorant of the fact that the injunction to confess your sin is actually a continuation and extension of the verse that says call the presbyter and if there is sin he will be forgiven.
The term therefore is to inform us on how the presbyter is to be made aware of the sins for which he is to pray about... it is through confession.

Themandator:
.


Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (Jam 5:14-16)


The Greek word used in the above is not Hermatia ..... Sins can't be forgiven twice ........The Greek word in this verse is paraptoma. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines it as, "a side-slip...i.e. (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression:-fall, fault, offence, trespass." W. E. Vine renders paraptoma as "trespass," "a blunder," "to fall away

And this paraptoma , from the scripture... James 5:16 ...Is confessed one to another ...nOt one to the elders .. not one to the presbyter but to one another ........ James didn't exhort them to go to the elders or even to the apostles but only another..The one I have offended is the one to hear my apologies.

you are mistaken the Greek word used there is ἁμαρτίας I.e hermatia not paraptoma as you claim. it is hermatia and as I earlier explained the injunction to confess is itself but an extension of the call the presbyter passage.


let me hope the anti spam boot doesn't take this down.

my earlier response was removed by the antispam boot, so I'm trying to rewrite

Themandator:
What exactly are you still arguing after seeing it in the Bible that the prayer of the elders upon application of the anointing oil shall cause any sin ( Hermatia) he has sinned to be forgiven..... The sin is already taken care by the prayer of the elders. He can't be forgiven of his or her sin by the Lord through the prayer of faith of the elders and turn around to ask for another forgiveness f same from you.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
........................ "sins" (hamartia) are forgiven when the Lord saves and raises up the sick one who has been anointed and prayed over by the elders.

so you finally agree that through the ministry of the presbyter sins are forgiven?