₦airaland Forum

How do you know that Lazarus and jairus daughter died later on?

PastorAIO:
How do you know that they died later on? Please provide sources. Unless you are guessing or presuming based on your preconception.

Does it bother you that lazarus and the Jairus daughter all resurrected BEFORE Christ yet Christ is regarded as Firstborn? What about Elijah/Elisha miracles hundreds of years before?

This means Firstbegotten from among the dead means something else other than a dead man coming back to life
Study 1 Corinthians 15 to find out

frosbel:
Show us your evidence.

And ;

If these people did indeed rise from their tombs it means that Jesus was not the firstborn from the dead or the first to resurrect fully , since at the time these people resurrected , Jesus was dead.

Also there are no historical facts to backup this event, not even by a historian who was also a contemporary of Jesus by the name of Josephus Flavius , he did not mention this event and neither did any of the Roman historians of that age.

We need raw facts not assumptions and hearsay .

No disrespect but these are extremely vague statements.
Take 1.
President Obama needs serious prayers for his health.

If we don't hear of any sickness from Obama, prayers worked. If we do, he didn't pray

2.I see a woman becoming the president of America, but her health needs attention.

That should be Hillary. When is this, if it is not immediately after Obama, you will be reminded that the prophecy is still unfolding. If it is after Obama, you will will be reminded that the same was prophesied. Again, either way you can't disprove this


4. Britain needs prayers because of her Queen.
Queen Elizabeth is OLD. 88 years. She can check out any time. If she does not check out this year, people prayed. If she does, it came to pass

I can go on and on but you get the drift

Thank you bigtt76.

I don't know the exact circumstances of the case but I would favor holding the event in a stadium if the numbers are overwhelming. Charging is not fair. If it takes $5 to shut worshipers, that means most are living in poverty which is quite an indictment to the prosperity gospel

bigtt76:
Like $5 using the exchange rate $1 = N186

how much is 1000 naira in USD?

2 Corinthians 13:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”[a]

Your exegesis or the dumb excuse for the same is mediocre. Should we discard EVERYTHING that is not repeated in the scriptures? How many scriptures tell us the Mark of the Beast is 666?

Luke 16 is a parable no doubt but how many parables are based on unrealism? How are the listeners supposed to connect with a message which is full of lies. Think through any parable you want. the actors may be fictitious but the narrative is real whether you are talking of seed,sower,marriage,party or labourers. Think negro, think
You don't need to understand a parable's meaning to connect with its REALISM. Can you imagine Jesus telling a first century peasant about a farmer who sowed pebbles in the air?

If 'scholars' tell you what is fabrication, then they need to rewrite the entire scriptures omitting these fabrications and preserving the truth as told. See amateur skepticism is idi0tic? You can't tear away some parts while retaining others.

Man has a conscious spirit that survives death. Hit OK opnce you are ready to confront your stup.idity

! Samuel 28 tells us Samuel spoke,Samuel did and a r.etard here is yapping Samuel didn't

FotresOfChrist,
I applaud your inquiry into these things.
Let me try to break your question(s)
1. is one who is justified and declared righteous still a sinner?
2.Does the bible teaches that one can be righteous, justified and at the same time be sinner after being declared justified

I will begin by defining JUSTIFICATION. It is a legal term,a legal declaration that gives us right standing before God. it is basically declaring the believing sinner 'NOT GUILTY'. Justification is a one time event happening at the point of believing.

Some verses

Romans 3:24-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Romans 4:5 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Romans 5:1New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

FortresOfChrist:
So my question is is one who is justified and declared righteous still a sinner? Does the bible teaches that one can be righteous, justified and at the same time be sinner after being declared justified? I need my brethren in this discussion please.

Hibernating?
You are funny. Coming well but am not well rested.

Bidam:
Hibernating for now, how is yours going?

Thank you my broda,
that's the way to go. make them dirt cheap, disperse furthest and widest.

How are your first days of 2015 taking you?

Bidam:
Oga vooks, you can get a DVD message in Nigeria for as low as 100 naira compared to an internet download which will cost you 1000 naira or more. MESSAGES ARE FREE. THE COST IS THE DVD NOT THE MESSAGE.

Just about every other ministry have a website which cost next to nil to run. Then you have youtube. What is the big deal with availing the sermons through these channels?
They are afraid that if they sold what is available freely, few would buy the DVDs. So it is not lack of technology that prevents them but business acumen

I have estimated that the cost of producing a single DVD to be less than USD 0.5 thanks to China. I have done this so I know first hand.

So, upload as much content to YouTube or your website and then sell them cds and DVDS dirt cheap. The only reason they don't follow this intuitive route is GAIN

Concerning the medical programmes, that is no proof that free is bad, it is poverty and ignorance at play. I have seen queues at free eye clinics. But you are right, basic aid does little to transform the Negro. Negro needs education and more education not free lunch

Cc Image123

nlMediator:
You're putting words in people's mouth. Nobody said expensive disperses farther and wider. There's a big difference between non-free and expensive.

Paying for healing and paying for a message on CD are miles apart. The pastor is not selling his gift.

And you need to ask Aid workers to tell you about the challenges they face with polio vaccines and other forms of assistance. In several places, like Northern Nigeria, they're rejected by the people they're intended for, as the people are fed with one conspiracy story or another. People that willingly purchase medicines or take their kids to clinics would suddenly stay away from Aid workers because they hear that the vaccines are a stealth effort to sterilize them! In East Africa, nutritious baby formula was branded as poor people's food and nobody wanted to collect it, to avoid the stigma. That's not say that humanitarian work should cease. Only that you're not presenting the full picture. And if Aid workers find a more effective way, they'd probably explore it. I was talking the other day with a US government official who said US aid to Africa was about (free) food and medicines while in Eastern Europe, it was about legal and institutional structures for economic development. Years later, he found on his recent visit that places like Albania were thriving while Africa is still languishing. So, now he's spearheading a different form of Aid.

Your emphasis on online distribution shows you're not familiar at all with the economy and state of technology in Africa. Simply put, it'll cost the recipients more to download long messages than to purchase or share CDs. And more time-consuming too. Time is money! Perhaps, you're limiting that option to the richer countries.

We can find ways of subsidizing the cost of CDs without making them free for all. Because they cost real money to produce, not just 5 cents for an empty CD.

God told Adam that he would die in the VERY day he ate the fruit. Did he die on that day?

The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is all we need.$ how many verses do we need telling us about the mark of the Beast? Only one verse talks about 666. Puny brains demand an entire epistle on 666 else it is phony

The only death I lament is critical thinking or any thinking on your part. Where is baptism taught in the Old Testament? Can we argue that since OT is TOTALLY silent on baptism that the same is a fabrication and not the truth?

DEATH is cessation of ALL earthly affairs. But there is more. There is more because the spirit is very much alive. Saul sought Samuel and Samuel showed up. The very fact that he attempted to contact Samuel shows you the common thinking back then. Disembered souls were very much conscious and they be. ALL those 'proof-texts' you are throwing around have nothing on the spirit but everything on the body.

I find it decidedly convenient that soul-sleep heretics CONFINE themselves to OT. NT terrifies them. When you have gathered enough brains and confidence to study scriptures on the spirit,as revealed in NT, hit OK button

frosbel:
Please calm down and don't give yourself too much stress.

Fact : Sheol is ONE , Sheol is not compartmentalised, to suggest otherwise especially when supported by extra-biblical notes/documents/artices , smacks off as dishonesty which of course most Nigerian Christians have in great abundance. I have provided enough evidence to convince the most hardened skeptic but you guys are on a one way roller coaster with no ability to reverse back into the correct position.

Admit it, your gospel is DEAD and USELESS , of no value to the hearers until you humble yourself and learn the TRUTH.




To the ordinary observer my write-up (with the scriptures as a backup ) consolidates the logical position that DEATH means a CESSATION of existence and nothing more, but to the dogmatic bible thumper, it does not make sense, so he goes on an pointless exercise of turning scripture upside down on its head hoping to salvage something to rescue his/her ego, not for the love of Christ.

You are OYO.

I stand by my point of view and your tantrums will not change it.






You love me with the love of Jesus, aye ?? Lol

Go love yourself first, I do not need your love. My objective is to silence false teachers like you with logic, reason , facts and objectivity.



Death !

I believe Adam died about 900 years later, do you agree.

This is what you get when you embark on skepticism with half a brain.

Demand proof from scriptures and when any is adduced you summarily dismiss it as fabrication.

Frosbel is not smart. Before engaging him,aks him which parts are genuine and which are fabrication.

5solas:
OK. I wonder though how you expect to prove anything from the Scriptures when you don't believe in parts of it/
Can you lists the ''conditions of salvation'' or some of them, please.

Puny brains
The other day you DEMANDED from BabaGnoni evidence of two-chamber Hades FROM Old Testament. Your fickle brains told you that absence of that is evidence of adulteration of New Testament. I challenged you to adduce evidence of baptism from OT and you went dumb, which is quite redundant seeing you are dumbo already.

Once again you are demanding proof of spiritual death from Revelation ALONE. How brainless can you get! How many books are you using to prop your man-has-no-conscious-spirit? You are walzing from Ecclesiastes, Psalms to Isaiah and here you are shamelessly attempting to CONTROL the responses to your questions by restricting the answers to Revelation?

Let me come down to your level because I love you with the love of Jesus and it would pain me for you to perish in your ignorance, congenial and acquired.

What consequence did God give to Adam for eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil?



[quote author=frosbel post=29483916][/quote]

Remove your house door for a few days. The dead negro will have nothing to knock. He'll get bored and find a new hobby or something

Puny brains.
You don't even have an openmind, you have NONE. Here is why;

An entire chapter is dedicated to a dead prophet speaking and you are busy flapping gums that that was not a dead prophet speaking because you don't BELIEVE dead prophets should be speaking?

This is where your IQ has gotten you
Frosbel: I don't BELIEVE men have spirits that survive their death and can exist outside their bodies fully conscious.

vooks: what about such and such passage?

Frosbel: since I don't believe, those passages don't mean that. I don't BELIEVE and that's proof that am right and those passages are not saying that


I asked you a question; have you ever read 1 Samuel 28?

Let us go back to Matthew. What is PUNISHMENT? Can a few seconds or hours punishment be EVERLASTING?

If a momentary act of punishment can be called EVERLASTING,is it possible that eternal life could also be momentary?

Second death means eternal separation from God

frosbel:
You conveniently walked past the first line of argument on the subject of spirit/breath etc, but let's park that for now.

I look for meaning in the text not forcing meaning into the text.

Now, here is your problem ;

1. This was a medium not some kind of righteous miracle worker.
2. Familiar spirits work with these mediums for a purpose.
3. These spirits are under God's authority and can do his bidding any time he wants them to , example 1 Kings 22:22
2. Samuel was dead in accordance with Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Ecclesiastes:9:5, 10.
3. The is all about deception and Saul's fall from grace to the point where he now consulted the same people he slaughtered and exiled from the land.

If a demon/witch can consult and bring the righteous to talk with the dead then we have a serious problem on our hands.

Let Isaiah conclude this matter ;

"And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God?
Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?" - Isaiah 8:19

I hope you know necromancy is a sin and God only dwells in righteousness.


Am I supposed to suspend common sense,cease trusting scriptures and start trusting your puny brains?

You have brains and yet are unable to grasp and decipher the basic truths, how are you sure your entire theology is not fouded on shaky ground ?

Matthew talks of EVERLASTING punishment
Can you please omit everlasting from that verse and see if it makes sense.

It makes sense. Some will be sent to LIFE and others to PUNISHMENT.

How long will this life/punishment last?
It will be EVERLASTING

How long is EVERLASTING?

I never knew you could multitask; puny brains and amateur skeptic all rolled into one
EVERLASTING is an EFFECT? Since you were once an embryo, are you an EVERLASTING embryo?



Everlasting is an effect, death is the opposite of life, everlasting life = living forever and everlasting death = dying that is irreversible.

I am certain you are not trying to insinuate that people will be dying forever since death itself is swallowed up in victory according to 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Isaiah 25:8. If then Death is swallowed up forever and Revelation 21:4 states that there wil be no more death, can you define what second death means.

The Bible says Samuel came up,Samuel spoke....Familiar spirit is the ability to conjure dead spirits. Saul was not seeking familiar spirit but the AGENCY of the same to bring up Samuel and scripture says Samuel came up. Are you telling us that you know better than the Holy Spirit who repeatedly tells us that Samuel came up? Ever read 1 Samuel 28 negro?

Am I supposed to suspend common sense,cease trusting scriptures and start trusting your puny brains?


Matthew talks of EVERLASTING punishment
Can you please omit everlasting from that verse and see if it makes sense.

It makes sense. Some will be sent to LIFE and others to PUNISHMENT.

How long will this life/punishment last?
It will be EVERLASTING

How long is EVERLASTING?

I never knew you could multitask; puny brains and amateur skeptic all rolled into one
EVERLASTING is an EFFECT? Since you were once an embryo, are you an EVERLASTING embryo?

[quote author=frosbel post=29478850][/quote]

Am sorry my broda
You are a deep man and I may have misunderstood your position. Profuse apologies and a merry new 2015

BabaGnoni:
^^^
vooks, I dont know why you lumped me with frosbel to demonstrate termination of this 'created immortality'
I had robustly responded though but mistakenly deleted the post whilst finishing or putting finishing touches to the last entry
I've tried recovering it, to publish but now given up
I've wasted enough precious time already on it and presently couldnt be bothered anymore
- seems it wasnt meant to be

Image123,
1. One can listen to bits if the sermon is broken down to as many bits and all are recorded on ONE DVD. So preferences have nothing to do with burning several DVDS. Good point though.

2. Buying is never by force as far as I am concerned. And it need not. There is a thirst for the word I hope,it is cashing in on this that I detest. Whenever the government or not-for-profit organisations want to reach out to the masses, they go cheap or free be it condoms or mosquito nets and polio vaccines. Only on NL do I hear that expensive disperses further and wider.

3. What's the difference? You receive a revelation and the first Christian instinct is to share it. You are comfortable sharing it to hundreds for free but you have the urge to charge to take it further?

4. Open source concept is simple; the software is free but the user pays for distributing it. Just charge COST for the messages which is next to nil. Why should you copy profiteers? Imagine Peter discovering that guys are actually willing to pay him so he can lay hands on them. Would he be justified in accepting their payments?

Image123:
1. Unnecessary splitting is of course unnecessary. Though some people like/prefer to hear or be taught in bits like nlm has said.
2. Buying should not be by force. People buy for different reasons. To share with a friend, colleague, 'evangelism', for further and future purpose, for those that missed the service etc.
3. Charging for live sermons is not charging for dvds.
4. Selling takes the messages far, and those who buy usually share with me for free, lol.
I don't think as many people know about these open source methods, how to go about it, etc as compared to their ease of straight forward getting it with money. At least not here in Nigeria where Internet speed and data bundles are more of favour from God Himself. Another thing is, if the churches don't sell, others will. They will package dvds, shirts, caps, books that you can't recall writing, umbrella etc live. And they will even sell it in front of your church to your members after church service, and in bookstores nationwide.

Esere826,
I can't possibly comment on the gospel of sinlessness. Never heard of it. Perhaps you could do us a favor and quote Oyakhilome's version and explain it further?

About Oyaks OWNING his followers,it helps to support your claims

Listen up negroes,
Christianity does not thrive in a vacuum. There is the culture,norms and traditions in the society. This means churches are at liberty to invoke these as long as they don't void God's commands

What if this guy was your kid's Sunday School teacher?
[img]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcStJy9o4pa_nmKwU-gmRhFmcJcEEHdZegCrEtq2zoJIkW-erEQuf_xTT9kg[/img]

My broda,
Freebies are more likely to be ignored I agree. Am for minimal cost and anywhere in the world, that's under USD 0.5. Making a killing out of the tendency to despise freebies is just not IT.

You don't need one continuous sermon running into 3 hours, but you can have the parts/sessions all in one dvd

nlMediator:
I do not support excessive costs of messages, whether by splitting them or placing a high price. However, sometimes messages are better broken into smaller bits for easy digestion.

That fewer benefit is not sufficient reason to distribute the CDs freely and see even much fewer benefit. There could be a system for helping those who cannot afford the messages, including maintaining a library, tape lending service, or fund dedicated to that purpose with contributions from rich members.

These days when Joel Osteen writes a book, he sends free copies to members. It does not stop him from selling to others. Or to members who want additional copies for whatever purpose.

Why would you need to control those who come to hear you? Why not hold the event in a public stadium big enough to accommodate even satanists like SonOfLucifer so they can get converted?

So, what is 'God truth' in this matter?

flourishG:
your personal experience is not God truth in da word n all i can say is u sure hv a big problem and only God can help u.

That's so spiritual; kill your relations and reward you with shopping vouchers

These fickle arguments are based on conflating the fate of the body and spirit at death.
The body disintegrates and that is why there is no memory nor thought in death. The spirit lives on.

Let me help you think. Why do you think Saul went to the Witch of Endor? To revive Samuel's corpse? And what do you think came up? That's what a spirit looks like. It is fully conscious.

Am glad you admitted. Angels live as long as God wills. Human,demonic and angelic immortality is CONDITIONAL. It depends on how long God wills whereas God's immortality is UNCONDITIONAL because he is the ultimate UNCAUSED CAUSE. Repeat after me;

'the creature immortality is conditional while the Creator's ain't '

Your job abd BabaGnoni's is to demonstrate termination of this 'created immortality'

You also need to twist this scripture that equates the duration of eternity for BOTH the wicked and the righteous

Matthew 25:46 King James Version (KJV)

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
[quote author=frosbel post=29449684][/quote]

Here is what I have observed
1. Unnecessary splitting of messages into several DVDS to make a 'series'. A 2 hour sermon that can comfortably sit on a dvd is split into 40 minutes bits,a set of 3 DVDS sold of course at the price of 3.

2. Most of the DVDS are bought by people who watched the pastor live. These are the same members who support ministry and as such there is no need to profit from them

3. Charging for DVDS is one step away from charging for Live sermons

4. Selling merchandise is always restrictive;fewer benefit. Don't tell me that 'mature' believers know the value of the message exceeds the cost

Personally, I favor the open source approach like Linux. I can download at. My expense a Hirens Boot CD and burn it but ordering a CD costs me. In short, free resources but believers pay the small cost of distribution.

Cc
NLMediator
Image123
esere826

So sad.
Was she paraded as healed?

Kenyan28:
I am here and like I promised, to report another failed miracle. Pastor Joags last "miracle" is no more. You remember that woman who visited the HS in SA before me. That one who has been claiming to have been healed of stomach cancer? The one just like me who refused to go for a check up after HS? Yes that one. She passed on yesterday the 2nd of Jan 2015 of the same same cancer. May her soul RIP. Detail on Monday.

Cost of mass producing DVDs is very low. Or do you suppose they should restrict the gospel to those who can afford?

elantraceey:
Wasn't it money they used in producing it?

BabaGnoni,
your posts are a joy to read.
one thing I may aks you though.
Before the fall, wasn't man's immortality restricted to the physical?
I mean, the body only suffered corruption following the Fall. The same spirit within man lives and the spirit is the essential man so far that Paul considers the body to be a tent.
Would the fact that man lives beyond physical death lead us to conclude that he is immortal?

BabaGnoni:
frosbel is like the cat that got the cream or the cat that swallowed vooks the canary thinking he snookered vooks with:
What does immortal mean, go and check a dictionary!

The thing is that vooks is actually right about the "immortality" of angels, he only erred on the technicality that they cannot die frosbel

Another thing is that, one needs more than a dictionary to know really what immortality means or to understand properly the meaning(s)

frosbel you need to do real and serious study to uncover deeper meaning and significance of details and stop struting up and down like a peacock and/or grinning like a cheshire cat over the thread with victorious exuberance over false understanding topics like Sheol, virgin birth, immortality etcetera

Let's take the recent one you took a fancy to (i.e. immortality)

vooks isnt lying to give "immortality" another meaning in preparation for a withdrawal, as man, was immortal to start with (i.e. he was before the fiasco in Eden)

Ignoramus par excellence is to whom the other three fingers were pointing to

Immortality is a very interesting word, as it somewhat becomes a brain-teaser for the untrained eyes.
- it requires lateral thinking and diggings to unravel its dual meaning

Man was only "immortal" for a short period in Eden
Angels are "immortal" for the same reason and/or condition man was previously "immortal" in Eden

The common denominator with man and the angels is in terms of "immortality" is the Tree of Life.
It is the Tree of Life (i.e. access to and eating off the Tree of Life) that gives man and angels "immortality"

Talking of the technicality where vooks erred and looking at what really or exactly is "immortality"

"immortality"
- Its origin or etymology is from Latin immortālis
from prefix im- (“not”), and mortālis (“mortal”), from mors (“death”) (i.e. similar to the mor in "mortgage" which means death gauge or gauging when one is to die) and the combining form mort- + adjectival suffix -alis.

"immortality" essentially can mean:
deathlessness, endless life, never-ending life, not subject to death, exempt from death, not liable to death etcetera.

Immortality also means:
Cannot die. Period.
It is exclusive only to God and no one else

Only God is immortal, only Jesus is immortal regardless of what frosbel says or tears his hair out over
- also, only God can be in two places at the same time. frosbel cant
- only God can lay down His life and pick it up again. No one, not even frosbel too, again, can
- only God can do the mind boggling miraculous virgin birth
- only God can do an Agent Smith of Himself, like done in the Matrix
https://s2.postimg.org/svpo84ilh/agent_Smith.jpg
^{Two Agent Smiths}

Living without ending or having life endlessly is not the same as cannot die or can never die
"Immortality" and Immortality has a gray area
- as earlier shared, it is God alone who cannot die

He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him.
No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 NLT

He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light,
whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 Net Bible

Now to the King eternal, immortal,
invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
- 1 Timothy 1:17 NIV

---

No one can take my life from me.
I sacrifice it voluntarily.
For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again.
For this is what my Father has commanded."
- John 10:18 NLT

Man and angels are "immortal". God and only God is immortal

vooks, frosbel, notice "Immortality" and Immortality is used and understood in different ways

vooks gospel phrase, where he said "Man's immortality and God's are poles apart" is spot on
- I loved it!

There will be rejoicing in Heaven when you repent and turn to Jesus Christ

sonOfLucifer:
Happy new year fool. Wake up and see the light. Embrace the Lucifer within. May your path be rough.

What do you think I have just done, aks myself?

eistien:
Ask dem

I have always wondered why pastas resist embracing technology such as Youtube and they disseminate sermons freely.
DVDs too. I buy the blanks at around ten to the USD. Throw in the burning and the label usually done by volunteers and church equipments. A DVD costs far less than USD 0.5. Why then do we have DVDs, messages especially series going for up to USD 50?

Are they not guilty of presenting the gospel 'with charge'?

1 Corinthians 9:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.