₦airaland Forum

WinsomeX:
A point was made in the presentations earlier, I cannot remember who made it, that the tongues of Acts 2 and 1 Cor 12-14 are one and the same - they were languages. Pentecostal teach otherwise: they say one was a language and the other was not, they sometimes call it angelic tongues. When we understand that, we can get what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 14. So biblical tongues were languages. Whoever prayed in tongues, prayed with those languages. Whoever spoke with tongues, spoke languages. Languishes that have meaning, that could be interpreted. When you pray in tongue and no one can tell what you are saying, you are speaking gibberish. And yes, a lot of tongues prayed in church today is gibberish.

Ifgibberish is defined by your lack of understanding, then am OK with that.

Can you give me an example of a Christian practice today, found in scriptures, and also imitated by the heathen? I am not saying there are none. I want you to suggest one or two outsides tongues and let's discuss them.

Prayer is one good example

Tongues talking, gibberish, is not just found in Kudalini, it was said in this same conference that people spoke in tongues when the Mormon temple was to be opened in mid 19th century. So Mormons spoke in tongues long before William Seymour of 1900.

Like I said,existence of the practice among non-Christians does not in itself invalidate it. You want to dispute that?

I enumerated 10 things the Holy Spirit does in us following your question. Each of them can be linked with a scripture; non is extra biblical. Even if you say some are subjective, you can find a scriptural base for it. What I would find difficult to accept is someone telling me that the Holy Spirit is the author of laughing in the Spirit when there is not one account of anyone doing such in the bible.

Had Cessationists been humble enough to admit that their cessation arguments are not conclusive, then you would have inserted praying in tongues right there. The question then would have been abuse of a valid spiritual gift or Holy Spirit work and not imparting extrabiblical stuff into Christianity. So it all boils down to their conviction about cessation. They are basically using EXPERIENCE to advance their beliefs. They are saying 'hey, those guys talk in tongues and mess so much so we are super cool since we do none of that. We must be right'

The Cessationists grouse with Pentecostals is that they carry out extra biblical practices and doctrines. The reason for the thread is so that we might hear them. Now, of all the things they have said, is there anything they accused the Pentecostals of and were wrong? Including tongues.

The Cessationists have authoritatively declared tongues and prophecy to be unbiblical without proof. At best, scriptural cessation arguments are fickle

That's why in making the comment, I said I didn't want to be self righteous. Everyone has a right to call himself a Christian and refuse a group tag. I choose that. I also think the Cessationists, Pentecostals and others can choose to be called Christians too. Maybe we should all shed the toga of group names and stick with being Christians. I made that point to say that I have learnt and I am learning from all Christian groups. The Cessationists are making a point here, we will need to hear them.

They are not making a point as such but just blowing their own trumpet. It is self-righteousness show there

The Cessationists have told us what gifts have ceased: apostles, prophets and the apostolic sign gifts of miracles and tongues. I believe them.

They have told us thus without proof is my problem with them

These are my reservations with Cessationists:

1. I agree that the Cessationists are not being entirely honest about how God speak. They insist that God speaks only through scriptures. But if they agree that the Holy Spirit can convict of sin, then he us speaking: saying you are a sinner. This same Spirit can say much more. But I agree with them that a lot that is attributed to the Spirit are not the Holy Spirit's words.

2. The allegation that Cessationists have a tendency to reduce religion to pure academic exercise devoid of true living relations with Christ.

They are VERY dishonest and hypocritical. They have created an artificial boundary between what God does and what He doesn't and have labeled everyone on one side as ignorant and blasphemous. They surely are 'not like other men'

Valid biblical practices are also easily abused. THink marriage, parenting and so forth and they would have us ignore spiritual gifts because they are abused. I aksed you what should we do with Christianity seeing we are having abise after abuse? Discard it altogether?

Except congenial defects are irreversible

frosbel:
A key trait of intelligent people is that they will work with you on every level till you peak at a point. The ignorant on the other hand will make excuses for not wanting to work with you on every level and try to pass it off as superior knowledge , when we all know it is their ignorance that has stunted their intellectual faculties and capabilities.

Now go and play with your toys -

Please try and ask sensible questions and I will gladly answer you.
Illogic deserves nothing to illogic

How do you dispute Joseph's dreams because it was recorded by somebody else. Is it only the dreamers that can record their dreams? Did Nebchadnezzer write Daniel because it records his dreams? Did Joseph pen Genesis?

Let me help you become a skeptic
Since you may have extremely limited brains unlike Dawkins, pick one subject, yes just one and then focus on it for at least 21 days. You will be a legend. On Christianity criticism, You can pick Bible authorship, comparative religions, Bible translation, Christian history, philosophy,existentialism,General Relativity,Astronomy and so forth

When you are grown up, you can pick real meat like Greek and Hebrews. Only then are you qualified to aks questions. But as long you are infatuated by things you half understand, you are going nowhere

frosbel:
^^^

Nice start.

I need answers to all the questions so that when there is ample time today I can work on each of them in more detail.

I can see you are shying away from answering.

What logical answer have you failed to find?

frosbel:
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
"Reason is the tool of the Devil that makes us doubt our faith."

“We are hard-wired to need answers. The problem is, when we don’t find a logical answer, we settle for a stupid one. Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.”~ Dr. Gregory House, M.D.

We have an eternity of conjecture. Just answer it with reference t the Bible

frosbel:
what if I say yes ?

1. Do you believe in miracles?

frosbel:
good, now go back and answer my questions and let us forgive each other for this unwarranted tirade

I want a healthy argument not accusations and insults.

Just assume I am a new believer who wants answers or even a beloved brother who is about to lose his faith. Forget that it is me , Frosbel the nasty, lol.

He is extremely intelligent. I salute his brains

frosbel:
I am not a Dawkin's fan, but let me ask you, when you read his book, what did you garner from his arguments ?

Thinking don't come easy to all of us I concede and I apologize for condescension

Every other skeptic hallucinates they are the first. usually after reading Amazon reviews.
I have read ALL of Dawkins inside out BTW.

I am a member of 4 skeptics and atheists blogs and I know trash when I see it. You are amateur and your low IQ don't meet the threshold of a skeptic

frosbel:
don't make a fool of yourself and put your ignorance on public display, we don't what it spreading to anyone else , lol.



But let me give you another opportunity, go and borrow the brain of someone who you think/know is capable of processing logic arguments and then come back here with your points rebutting my questions.

Move on to the next 'LIE' please. You are embarrassing skeptics
Is thinking painful?

frosbel:
These are my own candid questions.

But, now I know you lack any intelligence to discuss these important issues and it is for this very reason that you remain caged in the prison of superstition ideas and myth.

Who is next......

Neither are your questions logical nor original but regurgitated garbage spewed by amateur skeptics over the years
Like I told you before, it takes some minimal intelligence to be a skeptic

frosbel:
^^^^^

These are not logical answers to what are valid questions, even a child will reject them all. I need intelligent responses not pentecostal regurgitated nonsense.

Besides Matthew who wrote the gospel was not Matthew the apostle. Get some facts in that religious brain of yours

frosbel:
1. Isaiah 7:14 was not referring to Jesus. Read this verse again and then read Isaiah 8:1-4

You know better than Matthew

2. How did Matthew and Luke know that Mary and Joseph dreamed these dreams since dreams are very private experiences.

How did Moses know that God created the earth in 6 days and the exact order of the creation seeing nobody was there?
Is it beyond reason to entertain the idea of them sharing the dreams? Joseph died early and Mary was there up to after Pentecost.

3. Who was the father of Jesus : God the Father or God the Holy Spirit

He is the Son of God. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. But let me ask you. Was Jesus existing before his conception? If yes, who was his Father BEFORE conception?

4. Why did Jesus' parents and siblings still consider him ordinary despite his miraculous birth, is that not odd.
read , Mark 3:21,John 7:5.

How differently could they have treated him?

5. If no MAN produced the seed that gave birth to Jesus, where did the 'Y' Chromosome come from ?

How could a rotting corpse with coagulated blood sustain life of Lazarus? Is it scientifically possible? Your brain dies within minutes of breathing your last

Why is it a lie?

frosbel:
Virgin Birth

ONE LIE please. Just one

frosbel:
Bible contradictions.

What is the ONE LIE that led you here?

frosbel:
Imagine if I was your friend for over 10 years and you suddenly realised that I was not really who I claimed to be. For example I was not a graduate, never lived in the US and was never in the CIA. Would you not begin to doubt everything I ever told you ?

One LIE is all it takes to introduce doubt and any sensible person will begin to find if everything else is truth.

dolphinheart:
5. If animals are not spirits, what are they?
Why then do you say man is spirit ? Because the bible helps us to know that man and animals are alike.

6.Sir, my questioned was aimed at showing you that your statement that man is a spirit or the spirit inside man is the man is false.
You have explained it that man is not the spirit in him urself here.
Man is said to go to the grave, his spirit/life force does not follow him to the grave.

I have answered both of these questions
Your questions are vague. Please make a point or challenge my points

7. Soul and spirit are not used interchangeably.
Soul and spirit do not mean the same thing.
The Greek and hebrew words used for soul and spirit in the bible are different and have different meaning .
So I still ask you, what is the soul(that could be distinct third component of man )

What did John see underneath the altar in heaven? Souls or spirits?

8.That is/ could not be his spirit.
Jesus went to hell, the bible says when someone dies his spirit leaves him and his spirit does not follow him to hell.
How can you then atribute man to his spirit when the bible says man went to hell?by the way, what do you understand by hell.?

To be continued.........

The Bible was written to people who knew the distinction
Look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus
He died.....in hell........Who was in hell? the rich man
Lazarus died and was carried by angels..What was carried? Lazarus
Do you see how after death both are still referred to as in their life on earth?

Frosbel,
There is an age old approach to theology of doubting EVERYTHING and then only working with what is left.
Could you please tell us so far what it is that you find left after removing all the lies and junk in the Bible?

2. mean, spirit of dolphinheart is not spirit of vooks just as your body is unique to you from mine

3. I told you they are different because God called animals out of the water and earth whereas he put his spirit in man. They may both be spirits but one came from God.

4. God made a body and breathed his spirit in it. This means the body minus the spirit is not man as such and vice versa. Man after death exists as spirit. This is what John saw under the altar. The spirit will be clothed with a glorified,powerful and incorruptible body also called spiritual. Look at Jesus after resurrection and you will get the idea.

This is what I mean when I say man is a spirit housed in a body. Paul and Peter both talk of the body as being a house or container for the man.

2 Peter 1:13-14 (ESV)
I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

Here Peter talking of death speaks of putting off the house/tabernacle/body.

[b]2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (ESV) ​
1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.[/b]

Here Paul speaks of the body as a tent. If it is a tent and we are putting it on, Paul is clearly distinguishing between 'we' and the body. I can't possibly put it more plainly.

dolphinheart:
1. You are right, the spirit leaves the body.
.
2. I asked : what is the spirit in man?

U answered : Spirit means spirit. A component of man that can survive outside the body and is distinct and unique to each man

Sir, the spirit (ru′ach) energizes and is the life-force that enables man to be an animated creature, to move, walk, be actively alive. (it will be explained further in the footnote later).

In ur reply , pls explain further what u mean by the spirit is distinct and unique to each man.



3. I asked : is the spirit in man different from the spirit in other living creatures eg animals?

U said : Yes it is. God breathed it

I now say, if they are different, why does the bible say they are the same ?
Psalms 104: 30
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22.


4. Sir , if man is spirit, why does he need a spirit body?

Remember our discussion is based on the second resurrection. Are they expecting to be resurrected in spirit bodies too?

Do the spiritual bodies need to be created from dust?

The reason I asked about those that where resurrected by jesus is that there resurrection follows the same pattern as the second resurrection. But this time around, there fleshly bodies will be brought to perfection and like Adam, will not die as long as they follow Gods law.

The following are excerpts from chapter 15 of revelation.

17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up,
your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.


(these shows man is the body that the spirit/life force activates, and not the spirit that leaves the body, cus the spirit/life force did not fall asleep/die )

23 But eachone in his own proper order: Christ thefirstfruits, afterward those who belong to
the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and
power.

(After the first resurrection the end will come. some people will survive that end in the flesh and will not face death at all, hence no need of any form of resurrection. In the new world, there body will be made perfect like Adams was when he was created.)

35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” ............38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. ..........
40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. ..........
48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. + 49 And just as
we have borne the image of the one made of
dust, we will bear also the image of the
heavenly one.+

(the first to be ressurected will have heavenly (spirit) bodies. The ones of the second resurrection will have perfect fleshly bodies.)


To be continued.........

2cato,
Laughing at foolishness is not Christianity
SonofLucifer is my prayer item, that he sees the light of the glorious gospel and start serving the creator and not the creature

Acekidc4:
*Laughing* Vooks answer dis young man

Winsomex,
1. Is there record of tongues used to pray in Corinthians, something which Paul says edifies the individual? Gibberish is what they thought of Pentecost. Why so? Although just about every devout Jew understood the disciples, they at the same time heard languages they dint understand. There are over 3000 languages and dialects in the world. Others have gone extinct. How would a language you don't understand sound except gibberish?
The frequent comparison with false religions is worrying. Is there ANY unique Christian experience that is exclusive to this faith? Should we dismiss as not of God any experience we see in other faiths?


2. Let's look at those roles of the Holy Spirit closely. ALL of them would qualify as extra-biblical revelations and encounters and diminishing Sola Scriptura.
(a) How does Holy Spirit convict? If it is through scriptures, then it is the scriptures at work. But then again, how comes not everyone exposed to the same scriptures recieve conviction? MacArthur is in many words saying the Spirit APPEALS to man in a supernatural way.
(b)godliness. This too entails Holy Spirit doing much more than scriptures themselves can accomplish otherwise the infilling is redundant
(c)Understanding of scriptures. How does He do this? He gives meanings an otherwise natural mind would never arrive at with all PhDs.
(c) lead. How do you know? Comfort? How sure are you? Utterances? Are you sure they are from Him? How so? And how does he help us pray?

My point is not to mock the work of the Holy Spirit but to demonstrate that Sola Scriptura is not incompatible with manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. All those roles you have highlighted are subjective just as spiritual gifts are and when not checked against scriptures can lead to error. So the solution is not dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit but to subject the same to scriptures. It is hypocritical for cessationists to believe the Spirit is doing all this extra-Biblical work and to claim that Pentecostals are the ones guilty of extra-Biblical stuff

3. Winsomex, you are shrewd. When you claim that you pledge allegiance not to any group but to scriptures, the same can be said of pentecostals,cessationists and so forth. You are basically deflecting. The question is, what doctrinal position has your devotion to scriptures and not to any group yielded?

And finally, do you see how unfair it is to compare pentecostal abuses of the gifts with cessationists? You will never catch a cessationist abusing these gifts because they don't believe let alone practice them.
I would like you to attempt to enumerate cessationist abuses

WinsomeX:
I believe two things about speaking with tongues today. 1. The first one is that the valid gift of tongues scriptures speaks about is the supernatural ability of the Holy Spirit to empower an individual to speak in foreign languages he has never learnt and does not understand. For a given purpose: for evangelism or to manifest God's wonders that spur reverence and awe into conversion. This gift still operate today but in very rare circumstances when God is pleased to allow it manifest. 2. The overall majority of tongues spoken by Pentecostals is not by the Holy Spirit. I will also not presume to say it is by some evil spirit. This tongues is no language. It's simply noise making... Gibberish. It is an art that can be learnt. And in some cases it is given by spirits other than the Spirit of God. People involved in New Age eastern cults, Kudalini and stuffs, are known to speak in such tongues too.



MacArthur actually answered this in an earlier presentation on this thread. But let me try:
1. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and bring men to repentance. He is the author of regeneration. And he birth the new life that makes the individual born again. He gives saving faith.
2. At conversion, every person is filled with the Holy Spirit. He replaces our natural taste for godliness. And continues to spur us through life towards greater godliness.
3. The Holy Spirit gives understanding of scriptures. Reading the bible is means to knowing God. He gives us greater understanding of God through scriptures.
4. The Holy Spirit leads Christians through various ways. It can be providential, circumstantial or even through clear impressions which when mastered can become the voice of the Spirit to us. It is not our duty to box him into leading us in one way alone. The true Christian is sensitive to everything as it might be God's means of talking to him.
5. The Holy Spirit comforts in trials. In the time of our death, the Holy Spirit shall grant dying grace so that the Christian dimply sales into heaven regardless of manner of death.
6. The Spirit gives assurance of salvation; faith in God; and a living hope.
7. The Holy Spirit helps us to pray. He brings things to our remembrance. He even intercede for us, Rom 8:26.
8. The Spirit of God helps us to birth godly fruits.
9. He gives utterances for preaching or before the high and mighty.
10. The Holy Spirit is God with Us. Whatever we may desire of God, we can trust the Holy Spirit for. He makes Jesus real to us. The Spirit doesn't glorify himself, rather he glorifies Jesus.



Remember you had asked me if I was Cessationist and I said I was a Christian. My point in saying that was not to sound self righteous but to say that my loyalty is to scripture and it's doctrine and not to any Christian group. There are things in each group one can learn from. I happen to have garnered a great deal from the Cessationists and that is why I have opened this thread. There are points the continutionists too are making that are biblical. Unfortunately, though few, there are point even the WoF chaps are making that one can learn from. Paul in 1 Cor 11 calls it discerning the body (of Christ): being able to see Jesus in another who named the name of the Lord in spite of differing theological positions. It also means being able to discern another Jesus in some who falsely profess Jesus.

I believe the scriptures roundly. I think the Cessationists have made salient points that we all can learn from. And thus we have this thread.

Phew..!

Winsomex,
Good job.
1. Now, a claim has been made that gifts ceased with the completion of the canon and as Nlmediator pointed out, nobody has even attempted to prove this. This is taken as a given. Tongues and prophecies will cease we all agree but WHEN is in contention

2. Following 1, any belief or experience of the giftings is dismissed as extra-biblical and probably demonic, disrespectful to Sola Scriptura and the CAUSE of all these Pentecostal excesses

I can choose to fight individual words or the spirit behind the words which is summarised in 1 & 2. You may want to correct me here if you believe am misrepresenting.

I have variously wherever I had time posed a few questions or made my observations after most speaker.

Let me pose these questions to you Winsomex;

1. Do you regard a believer speaking in tongues today as either faking it or demon possessed, or anything but the Holy spirit

2. What is the present ROLE of the Holy Spirit on earth?

3. Since you have presented yourself as differing with cessationists and continuationists, exactly what do you believe in?

WinsomeX:
Thank God. And thank you.



I think abuse is one thing. Falsehood is another thing entirely. And we must be able to distinguish this.

I have labored to offer summaries to the texts of these presentation bc I desire that readers can receive the message anyway. For those who cannot read the text can read the summary and if there is little to pin down in the text, you can try the summary. What I suspect is that there is nothing to pin in these texts. These gentlemen so presented their arguments that as Jesus said they cannot be gain said. Except for nlmediator who attempted it once, no one else has and there has been about eight presentations so far.

I maintain that I am not strictly Cessationists but you must give it to these guys that they know what they are talking about and their discuss here are uptight, well researched and well entrenched both in scriptural and historical facts. They simply have silenced their critics and thus months after the conference, we are yet to find one wholesome response to Strange Fire.



I request that you refer to specific statements made in the presentations if you can.

Most of those criticizing prayers have zero prayer life so there is really not a chance in hell for them to be wrong seeing they don't pray at all.
How can the blind possibly be short/far-sighted?

.

Negroes and their superstitions are inseparable....Siamese

Let us look at New Testament;
Romans 16:14 (KJV)
Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them. 15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

These are two close buddies of Paul and they had names of Greek gods. Surely they must have missed some Generational curses class

1. Names are not given. Jesus also appeared to 500 most of whose were dead by the time Paul was penning 1 Corinthians. Any idea who these be dumbo?

2. Did Josephus report Lazarus? Where else was Lazarus resurrection reported? How many times should an event be reported before it qualifies as truth?

3. Paul never mentioned Lazarus either nor the virgin birth

4. This is BS because Lazarus, Jairus daughter among others all resurrected BEFORE Christ. Outside NT, we have Elijah/Elisha records of the same. Ever read about Moabites dropping corpses on a prophet's bones? The reason Jesus is the FIRST begotten from among the dead is because He rose again in a glorified body,he rose up to Incorruption while all others before and after him rose to the same bodies they had; they died again. Polish your theology as soon as you have had sufficient classes on logic and basically being a human that is thinking.

5. You are told to whom they appeared; those in the city

6. Same place Lazarus went after rising. He became a tourist and he toured ancient Nigeria and Australia.

7. I think you would make a dumb skeptic. It takes minimal intelligence to question things. Lazarus should have been Jerulamem Bishop or something

frosbel:
"And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many" - Matthew 27:51-53

There is something not quite right about this scripture and it looks more like a fabrication than truth.

Issues :

1. What were the names of the saints
2. How come it was never reported , not even by Josephus the jewish historian
3. Paul never mentioned this either
4. It erroneously suggests that these saints were resurrected before Jesus even though he was supposed to be the first born from the dead.
5. Who did they appear to
6. Where did they go to after appearing to people in the city ?
7. Don't you think these saints would have made the best evangelists ?

My broda, am in the least offended.

There is spiritual abuse in Christianity and one can argue that if they were not Christians, the abuse could not have happened. That's the point you and Strange Fire are making in many words. And you can't be pinned because if I point any unbiblical teaching and practice from your corner, you will say those are not Sola Scriptura.

The biggest error here is not cessationists branding themselves sola Scriptura but in claiming nobody else is. It specifically is in equating that continuoism with rejection of sola scriptura. A man who rejects scriptures is an easy punching bag. I mean they are a step away from atheism yet they claim to be Christians.

WinsomeX:
Thanks for your response vooks. I appreciate it. I was beginning to fear I may have offended you (too) mortally. Lol.

Listen to a story a friend told me. Not very dramatic but I have a point to show in it.

When this friend of mine was younger his mother used to take them to a white garment church. One time in the church there was a need to appoint a new leadership of a number of men - say nine of them. The church agreed that they were going to allow God choose a leader. There were some men who were eligible and they were going to allow the Holy Spirit to choose among them. One day, during a "stormy" time of worship, the Holy Spirit was said to have possessed a young woman and she began to prophesy. She will speak in tongues for a few minutes and interpret. At some point she began to reel out the names of the leaders. My friends mum became troubled at a point when the supposed spirit went way beyond nine people and mentioned close to double the number. Her question was: can't the Holy Spirit count? That was what led to their leaving the church.

My point: Pentecostalism is very similar to white garment churches. The white garment people have only taking what pentecostals have tempered to another notch. This might be a reason to learn from the Cessationists.

1. Both teach and practice an overly hyped theology on the Holy Spirit.
2. Both claim to hear God speak. Not from the bible but from mystical experiences.
3. Both speak with tongues. And as my story depict, the white garment go a step further and interpret.
4. Both have a low view of biblical theology and exalt experiences.
5. Both revel in dreams, visions, voices, encounters with spirit and angels.
6. Both carry out worship sessions that can be chaotic. The white garment being more chaotic.
7. Both practice syncretism.

The point that Steven Lawson made about Quackers is very instructive. Is it that the moment human beings open themselves up to mystical experiences they will always encounter spirits?

Winsomex,
From the little I know of white garment phenomena, I'd say they are in their own league.

WinsomeX:
I will be returning to do the summary of the last post but I have been having this question on my mind which I will like vooks and sammied to answer:

Is there a fundamental difference between white garment churches and leading pentecostal churches in Nigeria, or can we safely conclude that the latter is a "modernized" form on the former?

1. The spirit leaves the body

2. Spirit means spirit. A component of man that can survive outside the body and is distinct and unique to each man


3. Yes it is. God breathed it

4. 1 Corinthians 15 is a chapter I recommend. The hope of all Christians is not to merely come back from the dead but to be clothed with spiritual bodies which are immortal, incorruptible and powerful just like the one that Jesus resurrected in. Jesus is called firstborn from among the dead. Why is this yet there are so many that came back from the dead before him? It is he resurrected in a powerful body. All the others resurrected to their old corruptible bodies. And for this, they died again.

5. Animals are not spirits

6. Going back to God that gave it does not necessarily mean going to heaven. In any case, if the spirits of men went to heaven, that would be spirits not men! You need to study widely on this and not just pick verses that appear to suit what they fed you with. Has any man ever seen God? Did Isaiah see God? Hope you understand

7. Soul and spirit are used interchangeably. But it could be a third distinct component of man

8. I don't know about going to hell, but that would be his spirit since his body remained in the grave

I note what you are saying about Adam. God made a body out of the earth,and ONLY after breathing into it his spirit did the body become animated

Could you please explain to me 2 Cor 12:2,James 2:26.Thank you

dolphinheart:
Let me ask you the following questions.

1. What happens to the spirit when man dies ?
2.what is the spirit in man?
3 is the spirit in man different from the spirit in other living creatures eg animals?
4.if resurrection is clothing of disembodied spirits with imortal, incurruptible bodies. Then why did all those that where resurrected by jesus, elijah and the apostles become currupt/ die again ? Or where they not resurrected?
5. If man is spirit, are animals spirit too?
6. If man is a spirit clothed in flesh, and the bible says the spirit that God gave man returns to God in heaven, why did jesus say that no one has ascended to heaven , where God is but him that descended from heaven . ?
7. If man is the spirit, then what is the soul?
8. Which part of jesus went to hell?


Ill like to have ur views on this questions .
Note; when God created Adam, he was created out of dust . Adam already existed as man before the breathe of life came into him, making him to become a living soul.

You don't have to substantiate. Answer the question please

CAPTIVATOR:
Dont derail the thread ..... Stop solvin surd in a trigonometry class

Join humanity, start thinking
Go back to his commentary on 2 Corinthians 12:2. I have highlighted it for you.
Besides, for every annihilation teacher, I can show you 100 opponents. So it is not adding value posting opinions of dead men here to prop your argument

Jameson most certainly believed man has a spirit that can exist outside his body.

frosbel:
Are you daft !!

I quoted John Wesley and William Tyndale not Jamie Fausset.

Besides Jamie did not buy into the myth of the immortal soul which sort of destroys the foundation of your hell myth.

Is Jesus God?

CANTICLES:
@ Honourhim .... Study the context !!!
#4 When Jesus was a man on earth .... His spirit was his breath ! Or are u tellin me Jesus was in heaven the day he died , " father into ur hands i entrust my spirit" luk 23:46 .... Was he in heaven that day ??

Resurrection is clothing of disembodied spirits with immortal incorruptible bodies like what Christ resurrected with.
Man is spirit clothed in flesh. At death, his spirit departs from him and the flesh suffers corruption.

When you claim that man ceases to exist at death save for his flesh which also disintegrates, then God would have to RECREATE him afresh on resurrection. He has to RESTORE his memory,mind,will,intellect and all to a NEW body. It means whatever dies that is dolphinheart is not what is rewarded with eternity.

dolphinheart:
I would have loved to discuss this with you,but as I read ur last posts, i realized you have your own view about what is resurrected and how man is resurrected.

Pls ill like to understand ur view on resurrection and how man is being .

On ur question on what will resurrected and where will they be before being resurrected.

My answer is based on what God called man , he said " from dust you are, and dust you will return "

Man is dust, if he will be resurrected , then he will be resurrected from dust.

Until resurrection , man will remain dust.

If you cease to exist and then God creates you AFRESH one thousand years later, that's two different frosbels

frosbel:
Soul sleep is just a term created by deluded scholars to discredit the truth about death.

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice," - John 5:29

Death is sleep in the bible, a cessation of temporary existence.

Resurrection is the raising from the dead of the righteous with new immortal bodies and the wicked with mortal bodies for punishment.

So tell me Mr.Bible Scholar , DANIEL said MULTITUDES are sleeping in the dust of the earth , 100% of them not 50% like some heathen try to imply. JESUS said the dead are in their TOMBS , 100% of them not 50% of them.

So whose side are you one, JESUS and DANIEL or Greek Pagan Philosophers ??