₦airaland Forum

osaromike:
i am new on this forum,hope i will have some fun here,this is a very good topic here

You will need a bulletproof vest to survive here or you won't be around for too long i suggest you go get one.

But you need to show me how to complete it though. Still new around here.

Tonye-t:
and to add pls educated folks dont write phrase they write clause[b] so complete it k[/b]?

Why? but thats the part the i like Okay if it means so much to you to i take it all back. My apologies

Tonye-t:
Zikkyy, maybe i am yet to show you any "senseful" post

True. This part of your post is very valid. This is probably your best post on this tithe issue 

Tonye-t:
Then good-a-thing, prove its a CHOICE.

There is nothing for me to prove. Compulsory tithing for christians cannot be found in the bible. The onus is on you to prove that tithing is compulsory, and we are yet to see anything serious from you.

Tonye-t:
Mr.Zikkyy,
Do you know you're surprising me of lately? How come you choose to spread your fallasy about anti-tithing and yet you couldnt do it with just a comprehensive post or better still some jotter post to butress your baseless points.

What do you want from me Tonye-t?

Tonye-t:
[font=trebuchet ms][color=#000099]Mr.Zikkyy,
Come all out and tell us why you feel tithing is wrong and not stay here waiting for someone to say why they feel it is right so that you oppose them without any justifiable reason. Goooosh NL christians are something else. same for you KunleOshod

Cant remember saying its wrong for you to render a tenth of your earnings. Only said it was your choice, Its your money.

biina:
I suspect your apology is premature, cos I do believe that God expects all christians to pay their tithes (to whom/where you pay it is a different issue)

That’s your belief biina, you can’t support it with the bible. I respect your position though.

biina:
Not sure if you meant you agree with using a 0% lower bound? if not 0%, what is your lower bound?
I will place my lower bound at 10%.

I don’t have a lower bound. I give what I can afford.

biina:
Yes, if you dont pay your tithe, you rob God.
Note paying your tithe to God and your pastor physically receiving it are two different phases. The first is expected of you (and thus compulsory as a christian), the latter requires some threshing.
I feel the true question should be what should you do with your tithe, and not if you should pay your tithes.

I still don’t know where this theory of compulsory tithing came from. Even Jacob made the promise to render a tenth to the Lord at a point in his life. Was he rendering before the time he made that pledge? Was he meeting expectations before that time? Was he told at the time of making the tithing promise that it was going to be an expectation and therefore compulsory? Only the Israelites (based on the Mosaic Law) were made to render a compulsory tenth of their farm and animal produce.

The question is not what you should do with your tithe because if it’s compulsory, the mode of payment is already defined. I believe you are missing up this tithing thing with Christian giving. Now this is an expectation as you are required to love your neighbor.

biina:
Sorry for the mix up, but I wasn't asking that you relate it to tithing. Your answer above is ambivalent, as you made the association of compulsory or by choice, outside of the expectation.
Is what God expect of us compulsory or open to free will? For example, God expects us to seek first his kingdom; is it then compulsory to seek the kingdom of God first?
My position is that that which God expects of me is compulsory as a christian, but by choice as a human i.e. you can decide to not do what God expects of you, but then you are not a christian.

Since we are no longer considering the issue of tithing here, i would agree with your position above. I was begining to think you consider tithing as what God expect of every christian. My apologies.

biina:
I believe you have left out the most important one which is to love your God; and then love thine neighbor as thyself. This brings out a side point as to if all the laws can be summarized as two, then why give the Israelites ten commandments, along with the multitude of other laws and ordinances?Hint: They were human. A similar analysis can be made of the New Testament, as same was said in so many ways.

I dont understand.

biina:
Before there were laws on offerings, Cain and Abel made offerings unto God. Abel's was accepted and Cain's was not (wonder why?). Abraham without laws paid tithe, and Jacob without laws pledge a tenth, yet the Israelites were given laws to tithe. The laws were never the end, they were a means.

Now i am confused. I want to believe we are no longer talking about expectations here.

biina:
If I follow your argument any fraction from 0-100% is acceptable? I personally have issues with a 0% lower bound.
Lets us be clear that if you pay your tithe because the pastor says so, or because you are expecting multiple returns, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons. It would be like seeking the kingdom of God because you expect everything else to be given unto you.

I agree.

biina:
God accused the people of robbing him, and it wasn't because the levites were starving.

What are you saying? we are robbing God if we dont render our tithe?

I think we are missing things up here. I had tithe in mind when i made my first post. It will be difficult for me to answer your question if i have to relate it to tithe. But if you insist,

biina:
This also does not answer the two questions I posed.

biina:
Free-will v compulsory; an interesting point you have raised. Under what do you classify what God expects of you, compulsory or free will?
Does it please God for me to hold on to all I earn, saying 'It is not enough for my needs in the first place, thus I cannot part with any of it'? or do you think it is irrelevant to God what I do with my income?

God does not expect a compulsory tithe from you biina, its your choice.

I want to believe your question is what to do with your earnings. What God expect from you is for you to show love to your neighbour. If this requires spending your total earnings (or a surplus portion you feel comfortable with) to meet the needs of your neighbor (usually to the best of your ability as you cannot meet all needs with your earnings), then you would have fulfilled that expectation. Christ commandment does not require you to set aside a fixed portion of your earnings on a monthly or periodic basis to fulfil this expectation. You are to decide that.

biina:
Free-will v compulsory; an interesting point you have raised. Under what do you classify what God expects of you, compulsory or free will?
Does it please God for me to hold on to all I earn, saying 'It is not enough for my needs in the first place, thus I cannot part with any of it'? or do you think it is irrelevant to God what I do with my income?

We are talking about a mandatory 10% here. What you do with your earnings is a different thing. Its not a must that we render a fixed 10% of our earnings monthly. Its a matter of choice if you are convinced you need to. You will not be punished for not rendering that sum monthly. I believe KunleOshob response was adequate, but if you have more questions i will do my best to provide answers.

Tonye-t:
>>>1 Cor.16: 2 –Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.KJV

@Tonye-tithe,

KunleOshob has provided the appropriate response. Verse 3 refers to the collection as a gift. If you must twist the scriptures to suit your purpose, it shouldn't be so glaring.

@Biina, tithing might be compulsory if you can trace your ancestry back to Israel. It is not compulsory for Christians. For Christians, emphasis is on free-will giving and not a compulsory rendering of a tenth.

@Tonye-tithe, Paul’s approach in 1 Corinthians 16 does not equate to tithe.

@Tonye-tithe, where’ve you been? After reading your posts, I want to believe you’ve been in the Middle East digging for ancient scrolls. (I hope you don’t mind the little modification I made to your name, I just could not resist urge  Accept my apology in advance).

I can see you finally confirmed tithing as a pagan practice, and Abraham tithing to a pagan god. So, this means lesser spirits or gods can also lay claim to the 10% you are talking about. There is that possibility the pro-tithing community (MOGs/tithers e.t.c) will be calling for your head after this. Especially those that justifies tithing by relying on Abraham’s tithing activities.

We gone through most points you raised in your before. Honestly I think it’s easier for you to claim you are divinely inspired by the act of tithing by Abraham to Melchizedek (it more difficult to fault), or to shamash the sun god, because “shamash demands it” (I love that part  it's almost bullet proof).

Compliments of the season to you too!! Wishing you a tithe rich _*ooops* tithe yielding _*sorry*  tithe filled _{*what wrong with me*}  merry Christmas Season. Have fun and being Christmas season do add a little extra when you drop that tithe at the end of the month  . It’s a season of goodwill and plenty of giving.

@Tonye-t. am still waiting for you to open the floor.

Tonye-t:
now i see y you have'nt understood my case all the while. well i started this thread so i think its of my discretion to choose the `arakh dont tell me you just dont understand this simple greek i used there [/color] [/font]

This will be your fault Tonye-t, when you keep communicating in languages we cannot comprehend.  Its good you finally decided to take stand, lets here it in English please. Otherwise you have to take up my cost of shiping in an an interpreter from Greece.

Tonye-t:
starting in this order KunleOshod, Viaro, Zikkyy, Ogajim(the same person as one of us), Debosky,Tonye-t, Chukwudi44, and then we all can contrast maturedly or leave honorably. aight

I suggest you open the floor. After all you started this wahala. Lets hear you, and please speak english (my greek is very poor).

@Tonye-t

From your response to my posts, its obvious you dont read a post before responding or you choose to interprete what you read in a manner that suits your objective. Any sane and rational reader of this thread can easily see the desperation in your posts. You cant justify what is not right Tonye-t. You can be sure i will not allow you spread confusion with your theories on tithing, but i won't go into uneccesary arguments with you. Its not worth it.

@VIARO,

Nice post. Hope you dont plan going to war sha, the MOGs outnumber you ten tousand to one (not counting die hard followers)

I agree preaching should be done without financial benefit in mind. A token of appreciation is not bad especially if a pastor live on such token . Though this excludes the mega pastors, the type you listed above.

viaro:
According to those verses, should Christian ministers be paid for the work they do in the churches?

You can find an answer in my previous post. Maybe, a copy (& paste) is found below;

"We all fail to appreciate Christ commandment of loving your neighbour as yourself. Truly, if you love your neighbour (widows, orphans, poor, e.t.c.), you not neglect them, if you love your place of worship you will see to its good condition, if you truly love your MOG, you see to his welfare e.t.c. if we all abide by this commandment there is no need for the MOG to squeeze a tenth out a tenth of our earnings".

We should all see to our MOG's welfare especially if he has no other source of income. I believe he should be comfortable enough to allow him focus on the service he is rendering. Excess will result in distraction. You see Viaro, the work of the MOG is not a corporate sector job, and he should not expect the the kind of compensation comparable to that of the CEO of General Motors. I see it as a sacrifice for which the reward is beyond cash. That's why i added that extract from 1 Timothy 6, for Tonye-t to read. As long as the MOG is permanently ocused is on how to collect tithe, offerings and other collections to make ends meet (or live in absurd luxury like other colleagues or even corporate sector executives), there will definitely be no time to focus on the critical issue of wining souls or keeping those already won on track. This is the situation you find in the area i live.

viaro:
Lol, I had to wait for that. If there were just a few tithers like debosky, we're in trouble.

What do you mean? The basis for my statement is clear; the man is a tither, he tithes out of free will, he believes people should not be deceived into tithing i.e. people should chose their own motivations for doing things. What else do you want Viaro?

viaro:
@Zikkyy,
Luxury this and that aside, please could you exegete on the verses as quoted in yours from Tonye-t? What are your thoughts thereto?

Please clarify so i can provide an appropriate response. Thanks

Tonye-t:
>>17 Pastors who do their work well should be paid well [offerings]and should be highly appreciated, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

>>18 For the Scriptures say, "Never tie up the mouth of an ox when it is treading out the grain-let him eat as he goes along!" And in another place, "Those who work deserve their pay!"
TLB[/color][/b]

Well, if you refer to luxury automobiles (with custom registration plate) and mansions, as well as private jets as well paid, i guess i understand where you're coming from.

We all fail to appreciate Christ commandment of loving your neighbour as yourself. Truly, if you love your neighbour (widows, orphans, poor, e.t.c.), you not neglect them, if you love your place of worship you will see to its good condition, if you truly love your MOG, you see to his welfare e.t.c. if we all abide by this commandment there is no need for the MOG to squeeze a tenth out a tenth of our earnings.

I am happy you made the quote above, i did some additional reading while looking up your quote. I will leave you some more from 1 Timothy 6. Note the highlighted part.

6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Paul's Charge to Timothy
11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

debosky:
I don't appreciate the name calling. I have no 'career' of 'anti-tithing' and I have clearly said I personally give 10% of my income monthly, not as a regulation or requirement or custom or anything else, but simply as a fulfillment of my own decision to give.

debosky:
The aim here is clear - Let people see what the bible says in plain reality without imputing meanings into things and letting people CHOOSE their own motivations for doing things. There is far too much dogmatism in this area for my liking and the simple truth must be made known.

Thank you Debosky, you are a good man and truly a rare type. If all tithers were to be like you, we will not be having this discussion.

Tonye-t:
Nay in the sense that the mosaic introduction showed us the blessing tied in the practise (TERUMUOT)

Now most tithers keep talking about this "blessing tied in the practice". I dont see it. why dont you provide examples of these blessings not available to non tithers. Abi you want me to just accept like that and start tithing. In my dictionary that's 419. Give me examples and it possible i might end up tithing like you.

Tonye-t:
do you understand, and by the way WAS TITHING REFERRED TO AS A LAW, pls answer this [/color][/font]

Haba Tonye-t, i thought you are the lecturer? It means you dont have a good understanding of the resources and materials you've been using to lecture us. That's why we're all going to fail your class Anyway as a good student to a bad lecturer i will refer you to the book of Deuteronomy, careful reading will reveal that tithing is part of the law.

Tonye-t:
well in furtherance, it all depends on where you're trying to look at it from, if i were to answer you, then i'll say in relationship we do not need any intermediary (heb.4:16), but in administeration YES we do need intermediaries (Act.4, Acts.6),

Intermediaries for what? receiving and pocketing tithes? come on Tonye-t give it up. Let me quote an example of how we remits to Christ below.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (NIV)

Tonye-t:
And what roles was Peter,disciples, deacons, elders called to play was it not to help in receiving things from the people and presenting it to God?[/color][/font]

I honstly dont know what you are talking about here. I hope you are not refering to the activities in ACT 4:32-37

Tonye-t:
Acts 4:35 : And laid it at the feet of the apostles (special messengers). Then distribution was made according as anyone had need. AMP

I am glad you came up with this quote Tonye-t. Now lets read it from verse 32 to 37 so we dont confuse other readers here

32[b]All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had[/b]. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34[b]There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.[/b]
36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet. (NIV)

NOW Tonye-t THIS IS WHAT I CALL TRUE CHRISTIANITY!! Tonye-t, do you practice this in your church? observe the part where even a levite has to participate. I dont really think i need to analyse this further Tonye-t, the message is clear.

Tonye-t:
come to even think of it, maybe you guys should start paying me for my lectures sef , lol joking![/color][/font]

You are not a good teacher Tonye-t If i have to take your courses seriously, i am definitely goning to fail Bible class!! Its more likely, you will be hearing from my lawyer instead of getting paid

Phew! Never believed I would be able to go through that post. I think you should have structured it into chapters and verses so we can quote you i.e. according to the book of Tonye-t chapter …… verse……

We as humans have been given the ability to reason and it’s likely we see things differently sometimes. But if we go about it in a matured and reasonable manner, we will disagree to agree. I am not trying to win an argument here but rather to also share my thoughts on certain issues. I might object to certain practices but don’t expect you to accept it if you don’t agree. Somehow I believe we all take something away from the discussion. The issue I have with tithing is not you rendering a tenth of your income to your church/MOG, if that’s what you want to do. Just like Viaro, I have issues with tithers/churches/MOGs that continue to coerce or trick ignorant Christians to parting with a tenth of their earnings to finance church activities/expansion.  The result is that a lot of Christians do not know why they tithe, and instead sees it as an investment. There is no sincerity in giving anymore. It’s possible a lot of people will stop tithing if you remove the blessing element that’s believed to be associated with tithing.

Tonye-t:
Today when we give tithe, the Men of God (levites after the order of Christ) receives it with prayers and presents it [s][/s]to Jesus Christ (Priest after the order of melchisedek who received tithe) Read Hebrews.6, 7,8 again,

I think we need to strike out the part highlighted. It doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t understand how MOGs are Levites after the order of Christ maybe you need to clarify, I am a bit confused here. If you have classified Christ as the high priest, giving to Christ can be achieved in various ways (on the ground that tithing is a form of giving). The MOGs don’t need to collect on his behalf.

It becoming clear that you don’t justify your tithing based on the requirement of the Mosaic Law which is a good thing.

I have a question here; do we really need an intermediary between us and Christ?

Find below my thoughts one time on this issue of New Testament tithing

Christ comment in Mathew 23:23 relates to the requirement of the Mosaic Law which was still being adhered to by the Jews at the time (perhaps with some modifications).  We all agree that an “informed” tither today does not render his/her tenths based on the Mosaic Law. That’s why I never see this as a ‘good enough’ justification to tithe. I think it’s better to say one is inspired by the practice of tithing in the bible as a basis for tithing.

From your post, I can make the following deductions
1. Abraham rendered a tenth to Melchisedek
2. Christ was a priest after the order of Melchisedek
3. And you reasoned that since Melchisedek received tithe, we should also render a tenth to Christ as well. Please provide clarifications if I got you wrong. Thanks. While i don’t want to say much on this but I’ll wait for your clarification before going further.

Tonye-t:
where have i said we should tithe based on what our MOGs teach us, go back to the very first post and read my intro comment again, i said there that i used to simply base my believes on what they(MOGs ) say but after all and sundry i resorted to studying this issue myself. read almost all my posts here and you'l find out that its either i refer to greek, hebrew/aramaic teachings of the topic and most importanly that of the biblios, and not what Oyedepo, or chris, or adeboye or kumuyi teaches.

Its one thing to read, its anothing to understand/inteprete, especially when there is an agenda to be achieved. Smething for Churches/MOGs that abuse tithing. Thats why some people need to be educated.

Tonye-t:
was tithing a law, why should a non-law practise abolish with the law, so do you wish to tell me that offerings abolished too, afterall it existed b4 the law and it existed in the law.

When will peeps know the difference btw the law and a standard!

I dont understand you anymore, you used to be able to maintain your cool, even when insulted. But going through your last posts i am seeing a different you, what happened?

I made up my mind not to respond to your case. but i guess it would be nice if we are clear on each others position. So Tonye-t,
1. are you saying you render a tenth of your earnings based on practices (cultural or whatever) existing before the mosic era? or
2. is your tenth rendering based on the requirements of the law of moses and as practiced by the Isrealites subsequently?
3. Any other basis you have chosen as justification for rendering a tenth of your income to your church.

Please dot tell me i should go through your posts all over again. I need your comments here to be sure i have been intepreting your posts correctly. Thanks

viaro:
Zikkyy my man, howdy?

I am cool. Been busy. Was hoping this war ooops sorry  i mean discussion will extend to next week so i can be part of it (less busy then).

viaro:
Neither extremes should be encouraged - because extremities cause far more havoc than health to our collective existences and purpose. This is why discussions of this nature ought not be too generalized as to make one set of people to be guilty for simply 'tithing'.

Well, i can say attempts to stop some tithers from rendering his/her tenths could have some health/psychogical implications. In the course of discussing tithing with some tithers, the look on some faces make me wish i never tried explaning/educating him/her about tithe. I think the war/protest at the abuses of tithing should be directed at the churches/MOGs. Encouraging people to read the bible (and not just the verses quoted by the MOG while in church) is not a bad idea as well. A tither wishing to tithe after obtaining a clear understanding of tithe can better defend his/her position (which is usually what i want to see and not the MOG's quotes). Its sad a good number of our people are either illiterates or just not prepared to reason things for themselves and therefore vulnerable to manipulation.

People like Tonye-t should always prepare to be attacked if they keep coming up with "funny" theories on tithing.

@viaro, going by the tone of your posts, i will say you feel very bitter with what you believe is the anti-tithers mission to eradicate tithing and how they go about it. Somehow, i believe i understand how you feel. but i dont think anti-tithers preach wholesale eradication of tithe (well, thats my understanding of anti-tithing arguments). Fifteen years back, tithing was not an issue that would merit the kind of attention being given in a forum like NL, i guess its more about the scale abuse here. For me i would sy the economic and other societal problems we face today contribute significantly to the controversy surrounding tithing or prosperity preaching. People are so disillusioned with the state of our economic environment and the desire to make something out of their lives has driven most Nigerians to seek spiritual refuge in churches or other spiritual place of worship. You will agree with me the number of churchgoers (agreed there is an increase in population) has really increased as well as activities undertaken in church. Is this increase just because people are getting to know God and therefore seek salvation? or is it because of the need to sort out problems? i dont know cos i cannot speak for anybody. But i do know that preaching directed at solving people economic and other societal problems is on the increase, and most will likely accept what they told out of desperation. So another question is, do most people really understand why they tithe? (i believe you do, cos you said so). Probably this is what anti-tithers have issues with. You see Viaro, i have been harrased a number of times by tithers for not tithing. The believe is i am missing out on some blessings and this is justified by quoting Malachi or Mathew 23: 23 (i think?). My reaction most times to tithing is usually defensive and not otherwise as you might think. Its rare to see a tither that claim to tithe out of personal conviction (from my experience).

Depending on your location/place of residence on the global map, i would say tithing practice/prosperity preaching as being done today is a serious issue that requires attention (i beleive it's an issue in Nigeria where i currently reside). Every body want to be rich. But is this achievable in any society? I dont usually object to anti-tithers preaching against the some church practice of making tithing an obligation if it will bring some level of awareness/education. At the same time, i believe that people should be allowed to tithe if thats what they want to do. Its a free world.

ogajim:
I have seen your "work" on other threads so there is no need to continue this with you because it seems you benefit from this scam one way or another or you won't under normal circumstances be defending it "to the death", reserve your stuff for the academia not NL.

If you consider the rate Tonye-t quotes 1 Cor 9:14, it's possible he is protecting his gratuity

TV01:
In the first month, one would have to pay all the salary & a tithe. Totalling 110%
Please explain this apparent conundrum. Thanks.

Well, i think the church/MOG will be happy to collect a tithe of 20% in the second month to make up for the arrears

viaro:
Do have a great weekend.

I wish. I am working all weekend. But thanks. have fun yourself