₦airaland Forum

viaro:
I wanted a discourse, but from that last note, it does not show me you're[b] serious [/b] about engaging.

Maybe you take life too seriuosly Viaro. Is it worth it? You can still engage in a serious discussion and have fun (enjoy) as well. As long as you are not dont insult or disrespect others. Make everything you do fun and you be a better person.

chukwudi44:
The act is is there any pentecostal church that preaches this version of tithing ?,they all insist on a percentage of 10 and a mandatory obligation of all members this is what I am preaching against

I think from my discussion with Viaro, He/She is not in support of this as well. The part i dont understand is it appears she does like anti-tithers trying to make the tithers see church actions from this perspective. Maybe, Viaro feels its an attempt to make them stop tithing. I might be wrong but thats what i read from some of Viaro's posts.

viaro:
When people assert that God did not speak about tithes to non-Jews, I often ask them to think about Abraham as a starting point: surely, Abraham was not a 'Jew' when Genesis 14:20 occured. Melchizedek was NOT a Jew either! If we're going to be honest, Melchizedek was a GENTILE! What do we then do with their own examples - ignore them? On what basis?

Let me clarify. When I said Non-Jews, I meant modern day Christians and not people that lived over hundreds/thousands of years before Christ. What I meant to say was “God did not speak about tithe to Christians either?” Maybe you can direct your comments at this. Ignore what I said earlier as your interpretation differs from what I had in mind. Thanks.

To improve your understanding of my position, i think its best I give you a summary.
1. I don’t attempt to force my belief on others (pro-tithers you might say). In any forum where the issue of tithing is discussed, we all share our views. Persuading a tither to change his/her belief system could result in calamity for the tither. It has to be a personal thing (to tithe or not to tithe). If you ask me Viaro, it’s the other way round. i.e. prosperity (tithe taking the center stage), is being preached by various churches/ministers with such passion,  it begins to feel like they  are on a mission to tithe the world. Tithing was not really an issue in the past (say fifteen years ago).
2. I don’t and never had issues with people that chose to give a percentage of their earnings to the church out of personal convictions and believes there is a benefit for doing this. It’s their money.
3. I don’t have issues with people inspired by the fact that even Abraham tithed also chose to give a % of their earnings to the church. It’s their money.
4. I will disagree when the other party attempts to either convince me to tithe or convince me of the benefits by referring to the Mosaic Law as justification cos its not true.
5. I will comment/disagree with any church or minister that preaches the need for tithing based on the “irrelevant” Mosaic Law cos it to fraud. It’s used to compel members to tithe.

From your posts, I can infer the following;

1. You don’t agree with church members being sweet-talked, compelled or put in a state of fear by the minister in an attempt to convince tithing.
2. You believe tithing should be based on personal conviction (and not because Moses told the Israelite to render a tenth of their farm produce to the Levites)

The only aspect I can I cannot easily infer from your post is if I would reap benefits (financial, spiritual, health e.t.c) that ordinarily will not accrue to me as a non-tither. Apart from for this, I can say that if my deductions are correct, then there is no basis for us to be arguing.

viaro:
but I just wonder that anti-tithers are always in the business of asking other people to do what they themselves should have done.

I don’t understand.

viaro:
"materialism" is not my focus on this issue or any other aspect of our giving.

If all pro-tithers agree that materialism is not an issue we will not be having this discussion. I guess my discussion with you has been based on the general perception of tithing by pro-tithing community. It appears your expectations was i stick to your personal views only. My apologies.

viaro:
Let me ask you: was Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek taught in Scripture as "complying with the mosaic Law on tithing"? Just start from there. Why do Christians like to bend everything back to the Law of Moses?  M-e-n! Set your thinking free from such linear strains - that is not helpful at all.

You can refer to my response above here. It forms the basis for my quote.
We are all aware that Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek. It’s been agreed that the practice of given a tenth was before the time of Moses. But do we have complete information about this practice?
Maybe you can answer this; what then is the basis of the tithing practice in our churches today? What is the justification provided by Ministers and tithers for tithing? Except you want to deceive yourself Viaro, we all know our practice today is drawn from the Mosaic law on tithing.

viaro:
Dear Zikkyy, let me offer this little tip: tithing was not given in Scripture to "comply" with the Law of Moses! Repeat that statement until it sinks in. The moment you make that huge mistake, nothing else would be meaningful to you in this discussion.

Whats this all about? I don’t understand this as well. Kindly help clarify. Thanks

viaro:
Hahaha! Zikky, you're such a spot! I don't know how many times I heard that from others; but let me give you my typical answer. It is a question, actually:

             Was Abraham a JEW when he tithed to Melchizedek?

M-e-n! I never for once thought you'd fall into that trap!   Brodaly, please. .  release your mind from that idea and understand that TITHES are not restricted to whether you're in Jerusalem or Jericho! You don't have to check whether or not you're a Jew before considering the issue of tithing!

Maybe i should repeat your quote one more time below.

viaro:
God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom;

and my response below

Zikkyy:
And God did not speak about tithes to non Jews either.

I am still trying to figure out how my comment justifies the kind of response i am getting from you. Viaro, can you tell me where in the bible;
1. God told gentiles to tithe?
2. God specifies how Gentiles should tithe?
3. How Abrahams tithe to Melchizedek can be related to God message to Gentiles about tithing

Once again, let me clarify that this is not about the origin of tithe; it is about the modern day tithing practice.  It obvious tithing by Abraham is used as an escape route to justify the reasoning for tithing.

What i hear from pro-tithers is that even Abraham paid tithe. If you claim your tithing is based on the fact that Abraham tithed, I don’t see how we can relate our current practice to a practice we know next to nothing about. For example;

Can we confirm that Abraham was paying a tenth of his income periodically (monthly, annual, weekly e.t.c) to any temple?
Can we confirm that Abraham was paying a tenth of his income periodically for Melchizedek upkeep?
Can we confirm that God told Abraham to pay a tenth of his income as there are certain rewards attached?
Can we confirm that Abraham tithed before and subsequent to giving a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek?

Even if we accept that modern day tithing is based on Abrahams act, is that the practice today?  Maybe you should consider going to war so you can pay your tithe out of the spoils of war. IRAQ or Afghanistan would not be a bad place to start.

viaro:
You again, my dear guy, are mixing up issues terribly. Let me wrap this up for you so we don't keep bantering back and forth: the issue of tithing for me is not a formula - it was not given in Scripture as a plastic, one-lane traffic that must be interpreted in one way and only that one way! That is the huge mistake anti-tithers make and repeatedly bring up in discussions. If that is how you see it, I don't have any quizzes about that;

That’s not the way I see it, it’s the way the way pro-tithers see it. Pro-tithers believe there is a special reward for tithing. They don’t see it any other way. So please take your comments to the pro-tithing community.

viaro:
That aside, what blessings are you referring to? You keep making this blanket statement that we get our blessings, not because we give a particular percentage of our income to the church. So, what blessings are you referring to; and how do you get "the same blessing" regardless of whether or not you do what others are doing? It sounds like one can just sit down with folded arms, closed eyes, mutter some formula - and woosh! the "same blessings" are thereby obtained. Please, I would like to know what you mean by the same blessings, then I shall go on and enunciate other types of blessings in context and see if they apply. You cannot just sit there and make assumptions every time, and then turn round and ask me to answer your own roll-call for you. It doesn't work that way. You don't tithe - good; but at the same time you know that as a non-tither you're getting the "same blessings" as tithers. My simple question is: please tell me what you mean by "the same blessings" and the we shall compare notes. I hope I'm not asking too much?

Let’s take Tonye-t recent increase as a case study. (I guess I will have to apologize later for this). Tonye-t recently got an increase at work and he is being considered as a branch head. He claims this was as a result of his tithing. Now my question is this; are non-tithers not entitled to increases or promotion in the workplace? If they are, then what is the basis for it? I hope this helps in understanding what I meant by “same blessings”

viaro:
If you want examples, I can discuss further - both from Scripture, and in the testimonies of other people. I said so before, and I'm inviting you again.

Please provide examples from the scriptures on how people were led by the spirit and tithed to get themselves out of a difficult situation. Testimonies of other people are what they tell us. We cannot validate.

viaro:
Conjecture - or you want me to flag the question of "validation" as well? If you can make statements like this, what is wrong with others also telling you that they knew for a fact that the Holy Spirit asked them to tithe specifically for something?

Finally, we have agreed that we cannot rely on what we hear from others. We can only speak for ourselves. Thanks Viaro.

viaro:
Good, Zikkyy, good. You know, of course, that is not a formula for all believers - there are indeed many who have done that same thing, and they didn't get their problems solved that way.

True, I agree. So also with tithing, there are many tithers with un-resolved difficulties.

viaro:
The point is not just about tithes, but as highlighted above, it's not just about tithes - there are abuses coming from other forms of giving as well. For us Christians to just single out tithes for a life-long arguments is doing us no good whatsoever.

I agree with you. Its not just about tithe. But for now tithe is the big money takings. Other forms of giving are not as abused as the act of tithing. maybe its because its easier to convince people to tithe due to the perceived "returns" to be derived.

viaro:
It is on that same basis that we can validate the speaking of the Holy Spirit to any believer.

If i tell you i was led by the Holy Spirit to buy my MOG the 2010 Range Rover SUV, i honestly dont know how you are going to validate that statement. Its what i tell you, as your evaluation of my person can be wrong. Maybe you have some special powers i am not aware of.

viaro:
Second, you're absolutely wrong to infer that statement in bold, because I was pointing to the examples you gave earlier.

No i am not wrong. But i let this go because you relied on the names i gave as examples of men "blessed" with wealth to respond. I dont even know if they tithers or non-tithers, christians or non christians. They have money which is what most tithers seek, hence the reasoning for citing these names. Also, these people are not the basis for my saying non-tithers also receives similar blessings as tithers.

viaro:
What blessing are you referring to, Zikkyy? I hope we are not generalizing issues and blurring the distinctions?

I understand your position; but what blessings did you mean by "similar blessings"? Please keep in mind that I'm still commenting on the part you quoted from mine: "God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom; so the idea that they "get their blessings" is a misconstruction" - that is what I would have you bear in mind when you refer to "similar blessings". And that is why I keep asking what you're on about. Generalizations here are not quite helpful.

I agree i have done some bit of generalizing here. But i will say i was refering to whatever reward (blessing) a tither might receive. I dont tithe so dont have the details, so its safer for me to generalize. Maybe if you tell me what these rewards are then i can be more specific. Being a tither, you must have been receiving these rewards

viaro:
When you say "non tithers also benefit", what exactly do you mean?

What blessing are you referring to, Zikkyy?

I understand your position; but what blessings did you mean by "similar blessings"?

I meant tithers are not "singled" out and given special blessings for tithing (financial or otherwise). As a tither i am sure you have received blessings that some non-tithing christians receive by simply praying. My position is that we get our blessings not because we give a particular percentage of our income to the church. It goes beyond that. To better answer your question maybe you can help with some examples of rewards received by tithers (being a tither yourself).

or maybe i can use your statement about people "led by the spirit to tithe" as a means of getting themselves out of difficult situations. I dont have details on the nature of difficulty in your example, but there are also non-tithers who find themselves in similar situations or even worse. Some have gotten out of these by simply going down on their knees and praying. Yours truly "Zikkyy" being a very good example. Tithers dont find themselves in situations exclusive to them and their breakthrough is not exclusive either. You can provide examples of these special/exclusive rewards if you have any (cos i dont know of any) so we can compare notes.

viaro:
but if a believer wants to be blessed in context of what he has seen in Scripture on the subject, then he should apply its principles thereto.

Other than the heavens opening up and the tither being washed away in flood of blessing (only God knows where) for complying with the mosaic law on tithing, I cant think of anything else the tither will take out from the scriptures. Is there anything else he is seeing that am blinded to? please help out as i dont want to be left out.

viaro:
God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom;

And God did not speak about tithes to non Jews either.

viaro:
True, we may speak in terms of what we know, not what we have no clues about - and what I held in that regard is what I have verified on many occasions - if we are to stick to 'what we can validate'. But there again, WHAT can anyone truly "validate"? Arguments on either side of the anti-this and pro-that? The arguments are mere theorizing which can easily be countered one way or another.

For e.g. We can rely on the content of the Holy Bible. Agreed our interpretations might differ, but we have the written (& authentic) words to base our discussions on.

viaro:
Lol, that is simply mischievous, sorry. Where do all the names you mentioned get their blessings from when some of them are not known to be Christians anyway? God didn't speak about tithes to those who bear no concerns about His Kingdom; so the idea that they "get their blessings" is a misconstruction.

So, are you saying that weath should not be considered a blessing? What i am trying to say here is that non tithers still get to reap that same reward that tithers claim to receive. So, the question is this
do we necessarily have to tithe to receive that blessing? i.e was the blessing as a result of our tithing? (becuase non tithers also benefits),
or was the blessing simply because we have lived our live in a way that the Almighty approved of.

My position is this, if we all get to receive similar blessings, the basis for getting blessed goes beyond just tithing or not tithing.

viaro:
And if you're wondering, I happen to be one of those who knows there are blessings attached to[b] tithes and other forms of giving and offerings[/b]. Good luck if you don't, but that's just us (you and me).

Good. I am happy to note you added "other forms of giving and offerings". It goes beyond just tithing. Please take this info to the pro-tithing community. I guess they will listen to you. They take you as one of their own.

viaro:
Okay, so it appears that for you, the 'blessing' has to be materialism in one form or the other - else, I don't see the relevance of your examples of Limos, etc. are dealing precisely with what true blessings are. I think as believers, we need to be far more matured in our outlook than thinking that way. There are blessings that are beyond material gains, even as you might have quickly noticed below:

I understand that so many people have a false perception of tithes, offerings, giving, etc. Indeed, if no one ever mentioned tithes and merely preached from Luke 6:38 ('Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom'), wouldn't that on surface value make people think the same way as you opined? Wouldn't preaching from that verse make people think that giving is all about getting "multi-digit bank accounts" in return? Yes, that is another verse that has been abused as much as the tithing verses - and people have developed a hard-to-fade idea about getting back "100-fold" in return if they gave "5-fold".

But no, that is not what Kingdom blessings are all about - it is not all about materialism.

I like this Viaro. This has always been my position. Based on my various interactions with pro-tithers, i would suggest you take the issue of the Limo to them (they have the good life in mind when they are dropping that tithe). The act of tithing or any other form of giving should not be seen as a capital market investment. Also take this info to the pro-tithing community. But i am sure the MOGs/Ministers will  not be happy with you as it will result in material decrease in tithe collections.

viaro:
Haha. . that is one complaint I have read a zillion times. Now, for those who have testimonies that the Holy Spirit urged them to tithe, I wonder what it would be if they turned round and rather responded: "I pray Thee, let it please Thee to stop using the word tithe. . . use any other word, and thy servant shall obey Thee!" Lol. In the same way, when people abuse Luke 6:38, we can then apply the same measure: let's stop using the word: "Give"! Just because people tend to abuse some term does not bring about an abandonment of the term - if that is the viable solution we can think of, then we need to abandon every single thing that has been abused through the history of Christianity. What would we be left with in the end?

I have been wondering why the Holy Spirit will select christians to advise on tithing? or does this mean these are the people recognised by the Almighty as pleasing in his sight. What happens to other christians yet to receive "advise to tithe" and as a result not tithing? Me i am afraid ooooooh. It means there is problem if this is true.

When i made the statement about the change of name, i was only trying to  take away some seriousness from the thread. But after seeing your very long response, i will say that it does require a change of name if the tithing community keep trying to justify tithing by reference to a totally unrelated & unnecessary (for christians) practice under the mosaic law. i.e tithing=malachi 3=compliance=food in Gods house=swimming in a river of cash. There is no correlation  between what is practiced now and what the jews practiced. It quite misleading and a lot of tithers today dont really know why they are tithing.

I think they should move.

Tonye-t:
[li] Your view of not seeing tithing as an instruction given by Jesus is a blunder in the first place, because the statements of Jesus in that verse explicitly xrayed tithing as an injunction , see it again [/li][/color][/font]

Tonye-t:
This passage meant that God’s plan for clergy was first to do his work regardless of any benefit, then its of Gods choice to assign source of benefits from them, in a more clearer explanation it says that God’s orginal design of titheing was not to feed any clergy, it was to see our prove of TOTAL love for God that was why the bible never recorded that Melchisedek asked Abraham for tithe, because it was a task expected of Abraham (prove of worship) then its of God to give the lot to melchisedec, do you understand?

Na wa ooohh! You are hell bent on collecting this withholding tax sha. I am begining to agree with Kunleoshob that tithing is a means of livehood for you or you are in the process of setting up a tithing and other collections business. If you are an MOG and have gullible followers, i see a situation where they will be milked dry. It's certain they will go home much poorer.

Tonye-t:
[li] paragraph 3 is just the same story I have been hearing since the inception of this topic: that because Jesus never mentioned tithe after the incident with the pharisees meant that it was IRRELEVANT or not too important or not needful, now my question to you is [B] MUST YOU HAVE TO SEE/HEAR JESUS SAY A THING TWICE, THRICE BEFORE YOUR ADHERE[/b] wouldn’t that mean doubt, wouldn’t that mean partial obedience, wouldn’t that mean an act of little faith, in my own world, I only need him to say something once and its of me to adhere, HIS WORD words IS LIFE[/li]

Since you are bent on collecting this tithe, its obvious you would wait to hear a second time before you start collecting tithe. Even if Jesus had not made any statement on tithe, i am sure you still would have gone ahead with the notion that Jesus will ratify your tithe takings later.

viaro:
Perhaps we all too forget that the Holy Spirit can (and has continued to) speak to believers to tithe - and as they have responded (not as a matter of "requirement" or "demand",

There is that possibility that it is the demonic spirit of MOG that is speaking to the so called "believers" (being so gullible). Just a thought. I dont know and cannot speak for them. I dont think you can either. You can only speak for yourself. So lets stick to what we can validate.

viaro:
He has also glorified the Name of Jesus and blessed those who obeyed. It does not have to be "required" before you see it as a DEMAND. Perhaps if we learn to refrain from these confusing connotations, then we shall be able to better appreciate the aspects we are missing in all this.

My understanding of the above is that there is a special blessing attached to tithing. People get their blessings whether they tithe or dont tithe, be you Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Carlos Slims, Aliko Dangote, Femi Otedola, Jim Ovia or even Erastus Akingbola. The Almighty in his infinite wisdom decides who, when & how to provide these blessings. If the heavens were to be opened for everybody that currently tithe, the street of Lagos (for example) will be lined with Limos (no more molue, danfo or okada) and Nigeria will be a better place to live (foreigners will be queueing up in Nigerian High commisions abroad to get visa). Except of course it goes beyond cash in the pocket or multi-digits bank account (but that's the general tither's perception of tithing, due maybe to the way tithe is preached).

I think we should stop using the word tithe to describe this type of giving as Tonye-t's view of tithing readily comes to mind. This usually result in heated debates. Lets call it "freewill contribution from income" or "special freewill offering" or any other term you can come up with.

I dont understand what you mean by "DEMAND" above. Maybe you can help me with some clarifications. Thanks.

viaro:
What then do you preach against? Look dear sir, if you are not against something, let's see you encourage it instead of trying to "confirm" dubious tales from askelm.com! I'm not against anyone who does not feel led to tithe - God bless them as much as He blesses those He leads to do so.

There is no need for all this. Its been quite obvious that anti-tithers on this thread are not against those that tithe out of freewill. The issue has been that of churches using tithing scheme to con members into surrendering a tenth of their earnings to the church coffers by making it a compulsory act.

Personnaly i believe the act of free will giving should be encoraged here instead as opposed to tithing cos tithing is more susceptible to fraudelent manipulations by churches. To encourage tithing here is to continue to promote the con by some of these churches. However, we should not discourage those that give a tenth to their church if that is what they really want to do (i.e. have shined their eyes very well before deciding to tithe). Thats is the way i see it.

Tonye-t:
[li] The basic origin of tithing was simply TO RENDER ONE-TENTH of one's income/profit,

viaro:
Hi Zikkyy, do you have something else in mind to bear on those two points outlined in Tonye-t's submission? I guess if someone is asking a question the way you did, then it would mean that the questioner basically disagrees with what he read; or otherwise he would not be asking them in the first place if he agreed.

Hi Viaro, please go back to my post and note the section highlighted. That's what i am interested in. We have not gotten to the point where i either agree or disagree. It appears the Tonye-t has gotten hold of some ancient scroll that provides detailed info on the origin of tithe. I am simply interested. It would be nice of him to share, so some of us can also benefit from this newfound knowledge. Thanks

Tonye-t:
[font=trebuchet ms][color=#000099]@Chukwudi44,
My reply:
[li] Tithing never originated from the mosaic law hence it must not adhere to the pattern of the mosaic law[/li]
[li] The basic origin of tithing was simply TO RENDER ONE-TENTH of one's income/profit,

Where did you get this info from, i am interested. It would be nice if you can provide reference. Some of us really want to learn. Thanks.

viaro:
But what is 'the true religion'?

Thank You. I was about asking the same question.

@Akered, Nice post. I especially liked the part on the levites.

Tonye-t:
[li]Are you also trying to say that because you have not come across any portion or interpretation of the bible that says Abraham's descendants tithed means it is not relevant, now i say, just becos you havent come across that portion isnt enough to say it never exist,

Honestly, i am surprised you can say this. When you kept insisting that because there was no where in the Bible tithe was mentioned as a law, it is therefore not a law. It obvious you twist facts to suit your arguments. Your posts at the begining of the thread was okay, but you are begining to disappoint me.

Tonye-t:
havent you read where BIBLE SAYS THE LEVITES PAID TITHE THROUGH ABRAHAM'S LOINS, or dont tell me i should show you the scriptures again, now ask your self, if titheing was such a bad thing, then why would God require Abraham to tithe and hence his descendacts tithed too? hmmm [/li]

Please, show me where in the bible God told Abraham to tithe. Thanks.

If you want to relate your current practice to the one done by Abraham, i guess you will need to go to war or start one. Dont come in the direction of my village though (i am from a militant region), you could end up being the tithe proper

Gamine:
I really suggest you read those links i posted in your free time.
Then maybe you'd better understand where i am coming from.<said that a dozen times>

I have gone through both links. Good write up no doubt but they dont say much about what happens to sins after believing and accepting christ. The sencond link was totally silent on the sins commited subsequent to the act of accepting Christ.

The illustration with the debtor even made it worse. What happens if the debtor incurs another debt? Will the creditor forgive him his debt because a third party has paid off the first debt? or will he be required to the liquidate the new debt all over again? That is the question. I think the illustration was all about the initial or original sin that was committed before the initial act of remorse and forgiveness.

ttalks:
This is the way I view it:
It depends on the heart of the person. God looks at the heart.
If at the time of believing the person is truly sincere; has been truly convicted by the gospel, that is all that is necessary for him to be accepted since he has no more life to prove or profess his faith.
A living person still has life and would need to go through a lot to try his faith and to show his sincerity of purpose so his case is different from the scenario of the sick person.

Thanks. I understand your point of view better now. I guess we are on the same frequency.

Tonye-t:
[font=trebuchet ms][color=#000099]Mr.Zikkyy,
One moment you're accepting titheing as Jesus' instruction and the next moment you are claiming it was directly spoken to the pharisees and not christians hence we should not practice. na wa o, so those parables he spoke to the multitude doesnt apply to the christians too, . . hmmm

Honestly, i am still trying to figure out the post i made that enabled you to draw such conclusion or quote by me. I am not going to be drawn into an argument on this. I leave that to other readers of the thread, they are my target not you.

Tonye-t:
[color=#000099]Well that verse are for those who feel titheing is a law, as i personally dont believe it is, for if it is, then pls let someone show me where in the OT it was said "the law of titheing", i have taken time to explain to everyone here that what you guys have been claiming as a law was never mentioned as a law, we see from the OT the law of firstfruit, the law of heave offering, the law of seed offering, the law of peace offering, the law of cereal offering, the law of all first born, the law of sin offering. where was it stated [U] THE LAW OF TITHE/TITHING[/u]. and if you are claiming Jesus abolished the law, then dont you think that would mean he abolished law commandment of "THOU SHALT NOT MURDER" thus therefore we should all come out and start murdering one another afterall according to you, the law is no longer needful.

We are going round in circles here. You dont need tithe to be mentioned as a law to confirm this. i will advise you go back and read your bible with an intention to truly understand the content. The book of Deuteronomy is advised, there you will find that the various rules stated from Chapter 12 to chapter 26 (i think) were all contained in the law. Without refering to you personally (cos i know you are aware of the truth), i think most people read the bible in verses/bits (as quoted by the MOG to suit a purpose) thereby missing out on the correct interpretation of any particular message. It idea to read your in detail to get better understanding.

Secondly, i can see you fail to see my point here. I dont have issues with you remitting a tenth of your monthly income to the church, i think its good if you can afford it, but dont confuse it with tithe as practice in the OT. This is what i dont agree with. I still insist there are no Levites in your church for this was the purpose of the tithe as well as the widows, orphans e.t.c (not for church expansion, paying the bills, or organising crusades e.t.c.) Quoting malachi 3:10 as a basis for justification is fraud cos the requirement to be fulfilled by that verse differs significantly from what you currently practice. Churces tend to use this verse to coerce/trick people to part with a tenth of their income. Putting fear in the heart of your congregation for the purpose making them part with a tenth of their hard earned income is fraud and a sin. People will always be bleseed for giving but not because they adhered to the law of tithing. This is where you get it wrong.

My conclusion: Encourage/teache people to give willingly according to their ability. Giving should not always be tied to a return. This breeds insincerity on the part of the giver and discourage giving when no financial return is expected. Christian giving should be an act of joy, and not a business.

Like i said earlier, my post is not for you as you are hell bent on going down this sinful path.

TV01:
- One is not saved merely because one believes in Jesus Christ or assents that He is Lord. Many believe and do nothing, or act - even the devil - contrary to that belief. Many believe and make it to organised church or some religious organisation, but still do not make that wholesale commitment to The Lord.

I just need to clarify something here, say . . . a sick unbeliever on his death bed. If he believes and accept christ at this point, does he need to perform any other act/work after this to be saved? considering this might be his last act.

ttalks please i need your views here as well. Thanks

Gamine:
Please, i will not reply to rantings or further thread derailments.
Because i made myself clear from the beginning.

Thanks.

I dont expect you to reply, cos you have nothing to say.

Gamine:
What im getting from the majority on this thread,
is that we are the ones saving ourselves.
Christ's death is of no consequence then,
We should have just kept on sacrificing goats n things

You are deliberately mixing things up here. I am having problem understanding what your objectives are. All you do is complain (either the post is too long or its not making sense). You are going to end up frustrating contributors to the thread at this rate. I believe you have a contrary point of view on this issue, some of us have been waiting for you to post. Please share and stop complaining.

Gamine:
Right.

Dont join discussions you cannot contribute reasonably to.

I wonder why you came up with this thread if this is going to be the kind of response we get from you.

ttalks:
Gamine,

What questions have u asked that have been evaded?
Please post them here again.

Also, there is an attitude that exists in your writings that is discouraging reasonable contributions.
U might want to look into that.

and still, we are yet to see a complete presentation on your belief about the whole issue.

I am begining to suspect that Madam Gamine wants you to run out of ammo before she hits back, either that or she has nothing to contribute to the topic

Gamine:
You insinuate that we have to be born again again again,
with no scriptural backing

What is your point? is it that ttalks & co are on track but cant just seem to find the right scriptural backing to support their point? or you hold a different view on the subject? Lets understand you please.

Honestly my opinion is that you are still confused (and succeeded in getting me confused at a point). Please share your view and lets move on.

dgreatrock:
It is yes and no

1. Yes= If you are saved and you maintain your relationship with the Lord, yes you are saved for life

2. No= If you were saved and did not follow the Lord and allow the things of this world to cloud your eyes and you stray away, if you die without reconcilling with the Lord, then your first salvation will not save you
Ezekiel 18:1-5; 7-end

ttalks:
You cannot Love God and sin. Sin is an expression of dropping the love of God and then focusing on urself and what u want;neglecting what God says.
Sin is an expression of selfishness; being after what u want or your own(without God's)way.
Sin is an expression of loving self above God.

So, in a Christian's life, sinning is an expression of temporal abandonment of the love of God replaced by a temporal love of self.
if it was possible to love God 100% of the time in a Christian's life, sin would never suffice.
we are human and based on our fleshy cloak of sin, we still cannot love God 100% of the time; hence our sinning and the need to always tap into the available grace provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Now let's read more of your theory; don't get distracted by what we say/write.

Great. I think i am back on track again. Thanks guys.

KunleOshob:
That is apart from the fact that[b] storehouse in the bible was actually a physicall one [/b] [and not bank account] were agricultural produce were stored for the feeding of the poor, needy, strangers and levites. The only reason levites were even included in this equation was becuase they were not allowed to work or own property. But today the mordern day impostors do other businesses[selling of tapes, books e.t.c] and own the best properties thereby disqualifying them from tithes even it it was still valid.

I am begining to believe OLAADEGBU's church have a CBN sized vault in their church premises. This might possibly qualify as a store house (for cash).

I am confused.

Gamine:
I have been very busy and could only manage to drop a few lines
especially that i was posting from my phone
anyway,

Lets take it from the top,

Romans 3:23

All have sinned. .
We will always fall short of JESUS, who is the Glory, maybe
except some people like ttalks who can never 'sin' because they Love God.

I hope this is understood atleast

OLAADEGBU:
As much as you don't like hearing the word tithes, I am pleased to tell you that it was God's idea of taking care of his storehouse and there is nothing that Satan and his cohorts can do to stop it. Instead of fighting God's principle of giving and blocking funds for the work of God you will be better off staying on the Lord's side and giving to God not only your money but your heart, talent, skill, time and treasure.

I disagree with this. By storehouse i believe you meant “church bank account”. God is not "taking care of his storehouse", the tithe that was kept in the temple’s storehouse in OT was meant for distribution to the levites and their families and not for church expansion, retreats, conventions & funding luxurious expenditure of those that are already comfortable. You are aware of this fact, but if still confused go back and read your bible all over again. Pay attention to 2 Chronicles 31:4-19, Nehemiah 10:37-39, Nehemiah 12:44, Nehemiah 13:5-13. There are currently no levites in your church, the 10% of free-will donation you gave & kept in the “church bank account” can be used for these other church activities. Nobody is stoping you from giving 10% of your income to your church to swell up the content of the church bank account, but stop confusing/relating it to tithe in OT.

OLAADEGBU:
We do not need to publicise the poor that is being fed or clothed for you to know that we do that. The many ministries that cater for these needs are doing a fine job without advertising it because our reward is not only on this earth but most importantly in heaven.

I am a bit curious here. From your post above, it looks like you prefer the church to decide what to do with the money you have for God by dropping everything in the church offering plate or sack (i.e. 20% for conferences, 10% for retreat, 20%for church maintenaince, 10% for charitable activities, 20% for spreading the gospel, 20% for executive pay). Have you ever considered taking control of your act of charity by giving directly to the needy or through institutions like motherless babies home, NGOs, UNICEF e.t.c while supporting church activities.

ttalks:
now if one did not need to repent/ask forgiveness of sins committed such as the one highlighted above Christ would not have said that one could be in danger of hell fire. He wouldn't have bothered because,as u insinuate, his death has taken care of that, or would take care of it in this case.
i don't know if u get the point I'm making here.

I dont think she will (ever).

ttalks:
As i said before, put out your new found understanding for scrutiny; let's see if it would stand the test of the scriptures.

I was actually waiting for that. It will make the thread more interesting.

@OLAADEGBU
I am happy to see that you give willingly, and i am happy to see your church does not "tax" excessively. There is joy in giving and it pleases the Almighty. I would be happier if you do extend your act of giving to the needy in the society to the best of your ability.

OLAADEGBU:
For your information, I am not a pastor and I still need the grace of God to pay my tithes faithfully.

The church funds the retreats, confrences and the gospel work through the faithful paying of tithes and offering of faithful stewards of Christ withing the church.

It would be nice if you can stop using the word "tithe" here as well, "free-will donation/offering" will be most appropriate. The use of the word "tithe" will always result in controversy as tithe is not meant for funding retreats, conferences and spreading the gospel. Its great seeing you support church activities and spreading the gospel with a token 10% of your earnings. If you can dedicate another 10% directly to support of the poor and downtrodden, there will be more rejoicing in Heaven. Thanks.

Gamine:
True, and what is Christs Commandment? To love God and others, is it to NEVER 'sin'

When you do something wrong in your family, are you 'severed' from them?
Do you stop being a member of that family?
Even though you say 'mom im sorry' does it mean, you stopped being a member of the family, then your 'sorry' now
brought you back?

Hmmmm,  i guess what you are saying here is once a person becomes a member of a family, he remains a member for good (even if there is a change in plan and the guy decide to go worship satan part-time). Oh well, i guess there is something you are not telling me here (i.e. you are privy to some info i dont have). Please share, dont be stingy.

One can certainly get punish by family members for being a bad (i.e. dont get to share in the spoils of the family inheritance). I see things like that around daily. Of course minor matters can be tolerated and the person counselled, but it has its limit.

@Gamine
Let’s look at this issue another way.

Let assume i use to be a sinner, and i accepted Christ as my saviour and believe in all that he did for me. I am saved right? Now does that give me right to do things like going on a shooting spree (with my AK47) in a shopping mall? Am i still saved? I personally don’t think so. I believe then that i have an issue to settle with the Almighty for that act? So then what do i do? Probably means i have to go through the process of obtaining salvation all over again or be truly sorry for my act and ask for forgiveness. Except of course you believe that the Almighty was very pleased with my behaviour.

The thing is if i have truly accepted Christ and i am saved, i must live according to Christ’s commandment and not indulge myself in activities that go against it. But when i do, it means i have derailed and sever myself from Christ. What do i need to do to connect once more? I guess that is what ttalks is saying here (i might be wrong but that’s my understanding)