₦airaland Forum

Tonye-t:
Mr Zikkyy,
I have already done a detail and comprehension on the topic and as such will not be making sumptous post ANYMORE!
Click here if you want more explanation about the topic

My post was a response to your comment below

Tonye-t:
Every act and deeds by Jesus is today meant for our interpretation with the times and seasons we find ourselves.

BTW your 'detail and comprehension' is not adding value here. Its definitely not supporting the topic. I advise you post more 'detail and comprehesion' to support the initial post.

Tonye-t:
Every act and deeds by Jesus is today meant for our interpretation with the times and seasons we find ourselves.

aletheia:
Good grief, so we can now interpret the bible in a relativistic way according to the times and seasons. Same argument homos.exual bishops make. No wonder you are steeped in error.

Tonye-t:
Do you even read the bible, maybe i should help you!

2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is Given by God and is useful for teaching, rebuking, doctrine and training in righteousness, NIV

Oga Tonye-tithe, i was expecting better clarification from you. I guess it's easy for me to conclude at this time that you dont have any problem twisting the scripture to provide justification for mandatory tithing. Na wa for you.

Joagbaje:
Be a honporable and honest man. This is tithe not temple tax. The Temple taxes were strictly for the maintainance of the temple.not for welfare of priest.The only portion the priest have was tithes and offerings of the people.

Please note that the priest only receive 1% and not 10% of tithes from the people.

Joagbaje: why is it the giving part either of offering or tithe that is paining you guys.

It issue is not the giving part, it's the lie you preach.

Joagbaje: Paul was not a Pastor over a local Church . He would not recieve tithes from them. People give tithes in the local assembly where they recieve the word of God. They had pastors in these local churches that recieves the tithes , The local churches send money and gifts to Paul.

You say this with so much confidence, like you are one of those pastors.

Joagbaje: Tithing was never an issue in early Church. The issues they had was circumcision and salvation by works instead of by faith. Tithing never brought salvation and was never used as and issue  because it was a an acceptable thing and part of life

If the gentiles were tithing before they received the good news, who was the recipient? The sun god shamash?  Did the gentiles have a temple with a priest to collect on behalf of the recipient? How was the tithing structured? Was it rendered to a storehouse in the temple of shamash for the priest? Can you then provide evidence that they continued with this practice subsequently?

If the gentiles were not tithing, then it has to be introduced by the Apostles, can you provide a confirmation from the bible that this was done? I am sure if it was a way of life it would have been mentioned by the Apostles who paid so much attention to Christian giving. You can’t preach so much about giving without mentioning tithe if it was a mandatory practice.

Joagbaje: Dont quote me out of context. I quoted the scripture to buttress the fact that you give to receive, the principle of seed sowing generally. But i quoted other scripture about giving to men of God ,Why didnt you coment on those ones.

Joagbaje: So i await your comments on these  scriptures.

I don’t have issues with how you handle your giving, it’s your money. Nobody is against giving here. I guess you give based on your understanding/interpretation of the bible and i have no right to question that. But i will always try to correct you when you post your interpretations of the gospel if I find them to be incorrect. The aim is to ensure other readers of this thread leave with a better understanding of the issue here, which is mandatory tithing for Christians.

I have to say some quotes were correctly interpreted, but none of your references/quotes address the issue on tithing. So I am likely to skip some quotes if it was not posted to justify tithing for Christians.

The idea of a ‘preacher living by the gospel’ is not a free ticket to deceive ignorant and gullible Christians into parting with their money.

Joagbaje: Tithing is merely one of the smallest part of our givings. They are all still valid.

As long as it's personal, ba wahala.

Joagbaje: The law says to worship only one God, has Jesus nulified that ? (1tm 2:5}
The law says honor your parents          has jesus nulified that ?(Eph 6:2)
So if tithing came with the law ,Jesus didnt nulify it but rather encourage us to do it without neglecting justice mercy etc. But tithing didnt orginate under the law The law only amplified it. It is based on principles of honour to God ,our willful worship to him as our source.

Tithing under the law was for the Jews. There is no record anywhere of Gentiles tithing and even if they did tithe, it will not be in accordance with the Jewish custom. You are yet to prove that tithing is a mandatory requirement for Christians and it should be performed in accordance with the Jewish custom (i.e. rendering a tenth of your income to the temple storehouse for distribution by the Levites, if you can find any). And please stop saying that Jesus encouraged tithing, I don’t know why you guys keep seeing Jesus comment in Mathew 23:23 as words of encouragement.

Joagbaje: If you dont give ,Fine  but allow us with our convictions. The testimonies of our lives are enpugh witness

Nobody is stopping you from giving. Your testimonies and what you attribute it to is personal to you. Please preach giving as taught by Christ and the Apostles. This is what is required of you. Don’t add or remove from it.

Joagbaje:
but there are other things under the law that are valid ,not because of the law but because they are based on spiritual principles in God.

Now you are adopting a spiritual approach. Your twisting the scriptures to justify mandatory tithing for Christians will not succeed here.

Joagbaje:
2 Cor. 9:10-11
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness [11] Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

Nobody is against giving to poor, we all do, but thats not all about giving. there are different graces for different givings.

there is giving to God in tithes and offerings
there is giving to men of God in seeds by the reason of the anointing on them

This has to do with a collection for the church in Jerusalem. Your quote above does not support the giving to God in tithes and giving to men of God in seeds. Let take another look.

2 Corinthians 9:10-11 - 10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

Your quote above is better understood if you read verses 12-15 as well. You will find it has nothing to do with the pastor, as it’s obvious that’s your interpretation of verse 10 & 11.

2 Corinthians 9:12-15
12This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

Paul here talks about the gifts sent by the Corinthians through the apostles to the recipient churches and the prayer of praise and thanksgiving to God raised on behalf of the Corinthians by the recipient churches. This is what Paul meant by ‘and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God’

Joagbaje:
Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,[/b]

For the poor man ,the good news is , "there wealth for you . This is prosperity
For the sick person,the good news is there is health for you. this is prosperity
For the captive , the good news is , there is deliverance for you . this is prosperity.

Luke 4:18
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,

And you interpret this to mean wealth abi? This is not Christ interpretation, it yours. Everything is cash to you. What has message of salvation got to do with cash or tithe? Is the good news about freedom from poverty?

Joagbaje:
John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

God is rich ,alll things belongs to him.Everyone that work with God by faith prospers. Abraham ,Isaac,Jacob,Joseph ,David. So to teach people against prosperity is against what Jesus died for.

This verse has absolutely no correlation with wealth or tithe. It only point to Christ as the way to salvation.

Joagbaje:
That was the mandate that was given to Paul. when he knocked him down from the horse.
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Acts 26:18 - 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Inheritance does not translate to material wealth here as well as you can see from the above. Paul was never mandated to preach wealth or tithing.

Joagbaje:
2 Cor. 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

You asked ,then why are some Christians poor? They must practice the law of GIVING AND RECIEVING.

Once again, you see riches in terms of material wealth. Do you see Christ riches in terms of material wealth here on earth? Or is it wealth he forsook in heaven (probably endless store rooms filled with gold and other precious metal) to take on the human form and endure poverty while on earth? Your interpretation of this verse is way off the mark.

Annunaki:
Assuming that Melchizedek is what oladegbu claims him to be, how does abram giving ten percent of his war loot justify the racket going on in some churches 2day.

I agree with you.

And if Mr. Olaadegbu's claim that he "suddenly appeared, then disappeared as suddenly as he had come" is true, then it means Abraham's tithe was truly one off (and from his war loot).

davidylan:
Yeah, you "tithe" that refund but get a receipt from the church . . . so you get it back from the government at the end of the yr and the charade continues.

True talk

chukwudi44:
I must also add that some saints have also exhibited certain gifts that were not described in the bible like the gifts of Levitation ,stigmata and bilocations,

Na wa ooh. I like this levitation bit. That means zero transportation cost to work. No more fuel scarcity or traffic worries.

Joagbaje:
YOU ARE QUOTING YOUR IMAGINATIONS, a CHRISTIAN DOESNT NEED BLESSING FROM GOD. HE IS BLESSED ALREADY IN CHRIST.
Ephes. 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

I dont think there is a cash/material wealth element included in the 'spritual blessings' highlighted above.

This is news to me. Well, i guess it a way of making more money. You just have to tithe the refund from the Government which is an additional income or it will amount to short-changing the Almighty. Such income might be acceptable to God though.

Joagbaje:
The gospe of christ is about prosperit in every way

Joagbaje:
matbe i will explain mysel better tommorow. today was tight for me

Oga, am still waiting.

Joagbaje:
@ Enigma and Zikky
You are still missing something in this matter.Prosperity is not money, it is total well being, Health, soundness of mind. success. rtc. You attack against finnance made my deffence seem to you as though its all about money. But i still say this to you ,The gospe of christ is about prosperit in every way

I am aware of that fact. We all know what prosperity is all about in the bible. But i am quite sure the preachers of tithing focus only on cash, which is why they preach it anyway.

People tithe for various reasons but mainly for cash. they probably see tithing as part of the total compliance package required in order for one to be the good book of the Almighty.

Joagbaje:
matbe i will explain mysel better tommorow. today was tight for me

Ba wahala.

I initially chose not to respond to the posts on prosperity as I felt it was a deviation from the issue here, which is new testamental tithing. But I guess I will add my thoughts as well.

Joagbaje:
I have heard the teaching myself and its not wrong ,it depends on the intention of the preacher which i believe its to help knock out poverty mentality. out of some people. In the sense that If Jesus in his poverty could catter for responsibility of 12 disciples and their family, had enough money that even as Judas was busy stealing from it he didnt care, fed 5,0000. Had his need met. gave mone to others. Then why should you still be poor. If you cant receive the prosperity Jesus brought at least dont live lower than the poverty level of Jesus
It was only sin that would make Jews poor,God had financial plan for them and gave them the condition for blessing. he doesnt make any man poor.

Did Jesus preach prosperity? You know cash was not spent feeding 5,000 people.

The disciples were shocked when Christ preached against wealth because the Jews (in O/T) regard wealth as a sign of God’s favor. While I don’t see anything wrong with Christians striving to be rich, it was never a priority for Christ and the apostles also did not focus on wealth. This is why I don’t agree with you that God’s want all Christians to be rich. I agree he does not wish poverty as well, but wealth was never the focus.

We will always have poor Christians, and the apostles recognize this fact that was why you will find more emphasis on giving/sharing. The wellbeing of the body of Christ was more important. Where in your opinion would be more appropriate for the few wealthy in a church parish to give to; the welfare of the very poor in the same parish or contributions to open a new parish in a neighborhood where other churches are already preaching the word of God? When we say we are propagating the word of God by funding the establishment of say an RCCG parish in a neighborhood where we already have an MFM, Winners, Catholic e.t.c, I think it’s the church we are propagating and the word. I see this as misplace priority or a lack of understanding of what Christian giving is all about. If the apostles can spread the gospel from a prison location 2,000 years ago, I don’t see why we need so much funding considering the technology available today (okay, I agree private jet is part of that technology).

Anyway, I still can’t reconcile the compulsory funding of church work with biblical tithing (for Christians that is), this is my concern here. I am quite sure you will not find in the gospel, Christ preaching prosperity (you will not find the apostle preaching that either). So why the emphasis on Christians tithing for material wealth/riches?

P.S Purchase of Churches and Cathedrals in U.K by Satanist as you claimed is not due to lack of finance in the Christian community.

Joagbaje:
@Zikkyy
Firstly Jesus had wealthy partners that gave to his ministry

Luke 8:2-3
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, [3] And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Paul also had people that supported his ministry

Philip. 4:15-16
Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. [16] For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

He encouraged People to do thesame.

1 Tim. 6:17-18
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; [18] [b]That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; [/b]

Galatians 6:6-7
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. [7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

But the one that lay up money selfishly and does not give unto God will soon lose it.

Luke 12:20-21
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee:, [21] So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

I was actually looking for quotes that confirm “the wealth of the Christian is to propagate the gospel” as a Christian requirement (or maybe I don’t understand that initial post).

Joagbaje: But the wealth of the Christian is to propagate the gospel  and not for personal selfish use.

Can you support this with quotes from the New Testament? I would really appreciate this.

ttalks:
Anyone who's been following this thread ought to know who this is . . . . .

Joagbaje:
From your response ,That could only mean one thing. You dont speak in Tongues and that means youve not yet recieve the holyghost and that gives me understanding why you may not understand the bible so well and also have understanding of spiritual things.

Well i dont know if also youre born again. Because it will be hard to communicate some things to you.

Was this post directed at Zikkyy or Ogajim?

So your conclusion is that one have to be born gain to understand why tithe must be paid to the church/pastor. Funny. Let me assume you are trying to create an escape hatch of sort here.

Joagbaje:
Come to think of this why would paul quote old testament law for a christian?

That was not a quote from the old testament. Please read from chapter 5, It has to do with moral conduct/behavioural expectations.

Joagbaje:
Jesus died for us to prosper that was major part of the mandate he gave Paul

If this is what you take out of Christ sacrifice, or if you believe Paul's time was spent creating weath, it's really sad then.

I begin to get the impression that a lot of people simply tithe to get out of difficult situations, while some tithe to retain their 'wealthy' status (not to forget those that probably surrender their money because the pastor requested for it). I agree it's not my business what people do with their money, but practice of justifying the need to tithe by twisting the scriptures really makes me wanna

Joagbaje:
Is like asking me "if you dont plant will somethng not grow in your farm .Definately your farm will produce something but not exactly what you want, unless you sow a specific seed.
There are graces in God , we are not talking about unmerited favour.There are two major kinds of graces.

1[b] umerited favour [/b] : this is what most people use in generic term for grace.Rain is by grace , air ,sunshine. you dont need to do anything about it. It is part of Gods general blessing. But there are some things a man cant experience until he is born again.

2 Supernatural ability. : This is a supernatural ability that a man walks in blessings that are not general.

Joagbaje:
The simple issue is if you tithe you reap the benefit of tithing
If you speak in tongues you reap the benefit of it
if you pray , you reap the benefit of praying. etc
And if you dont tithe you miss out of it benefit. its not by force

You talk about the benefits of tithing here, but refused to mention what these benefits are. What are the specific blessings attributable to tithing? Maybe some of will consider tithing if these benefits are revealed. I simply see this as fraudulent on the part of the pastor preaching tithing (due to non-disclosure), or a display of ignorance by the tither.

Joagbaje:
when i tithe I create an atmosphere against the devourer.

And you are so sure the non-tither is not immune to the devourer?

Joagbaje:
Pauld spoke against circumcision because it was a shaddow. Nobody spoke againt tithe.

Nobody spoke for tithe either. The Apostles never saw tithe as a requirement for christians, thats why you will not find any write up on tithe in the new testament other than the Mathew 23:23 quote i hear from Tonye-t. It was never practiced by the new testament christians.

Tonye-t, what are you doing here? Dont tell me You're off-duty today you abandoned your cohorts in your favorite thread. I dont think they will be happy with you

Joagbaje:
Christ didnt abolish sacrifce offerings, worship. He only fulfilled one and replaced the order.
Hebrews 13:15
    By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

There are some other verses in Hebrews 13 that might interest you, i will add some below

[i]5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
   "Never will I leave you;
      never will I forsake you[/i]

16And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

My concern is i cant relate your quotes to tithing. Maybe you can help.

Bearshare:
I dont see anything wrong in what the OP has posted, besides he never advocated for compulsory tithing like he mentioned.

Its obvious you dont know my man Tonye-t.

Bearshare:
Oga Zikkyy,

I dont pay tithe out of Fear for the men of God but for the Fear of God and the fear of God is the true beginning of Knowledge AND wisdom. anyone who does his or her out of fear i dont think is still any body's bizziness!

I can see you dont really know why you tithe, you sound like those guys that tithe hoping to be wash away with a flood of blessing as you step out of the church. I hope you can swim. Nobody cares whether you tithe out of fear or out of ignorance, its your money. Thats is not what we are discussing here.

Joagbaje:
Every blessing of God has condition of compliance for us to recieve. There sre steps of faith we need to take to walk in blessing. There are several graces in God which we are left to activate by our steps of faith. They ae principles in God .

Joagbaje:
Thesame way there is a grace attached to tithing He will rebuke devourer

God is not the one that send devourer. he is working already. but a man activate his security finacially by his tithing and the devourer is rebuked. You dont need to threaten anybody to tithe.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Are you saying i must tithe to receive certain blessings? Are you saying i am not financially secured if i dont tithe. How did you arrive at this conclusion Mr. Joagaje? Are you saying there are no financially secured non-tithers on the globe? I need to understand this better, educate me please.

Joagbaje:
As long as there is highpriest there would be priests. Is is relative and simple grammar. There are illustrations under the law that reveals Gods principles. the bible may be silent on the priests that worked with Melchizedech bt it is simple comon sense to know that what make a man highpriest is because there are lower priests with him.The structure was documented clearly under levitical priesthood.

God under the law gave moses a structure of Terbanacle but if you read revelation you realise it is thesame structiure the temple in heaven has.

There are things under the law that reveals God fundermental principles and Christ didnt take such away. So as he chose the priest as MINISTRY GIFTS so also as he chosen pators prophets etc as MINISTRY GIFTS. to funtion as priests .

Please don’t add to the bible.

It appears you still believe in the sacrifices offered by the Levitical priests. As long as you keep comparing the priesthood of Christ with that of men, we will always have this discussion.

Bearshare:
Am i wrong for choosing to pay tithe? I have received several blessings and dont think i'll ever turn my back

There is nothing wrong with you rendering a tenth of your income to the church if that is what you want to do (my personal view). But if you pay it because you are afraid God will punish you for non-compliance, it means you dont really know why you tithe.

I dont know about the blessing part.

Joagbaje:
The answer is simple . The pastors, prophets etc are the priests to recieve on the behalf of Christ our highpriest. They are the 5fold ministry gift given to perfect the body of christ

Numbers 18:7
Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Now we are talking about a new priestly office superior to the Levitical priesthood, and you justify your position with quotes concerning the Levitical priesthood. Na wa for you. There is no correlation between your quote from Ephesians and tithing.

aletheia:
1. I have noticed that you are very evasive when challenged on your views.
Question: So who is a priest of the order of Melchisedec? Hint: Hebrews 6:20
Is there now another set of priests over the body of Christ to whom we must render tithes. Why don't you give a straight answer for once instead of posting irrelevant cartoons.

Joagbaje:
The pastors are the priests .

O[size=14pt]M[/size][size=18pt]G[/size][size=18pt]!![/size] The pastors are the priests of the order of Melchizedek 

OLAADEGBU:
What Apostle Paul taught was that Melchisedec priesthood is eternal and must be supported by children of Abraham (Hebrews 6:20; 7:1-11).

Hebrews 6: 20 - 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:11 (see your bible for verse 1-10) - 11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?[color=#990000][/color]

You are way off-course. I believe your focus should be on the priesthood of Christ and not that of Melchizedek. I think Paul reference of Christ Priesthood as being according to the order of Melchizedek was simply to show the superiority over that of the Levitical priesthood. It was not a call to adopt Melchizedek as our high priest. Christ priesthood is not a continuation of the priesthood of Melchizedek. Melchizedek priesthood was considered eternal because there are no documentations regarding his birth or death.

3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. Hebrews 7:3 (NIV)

Now compare this to Hebrews 7:26-27 (NIV) regarding the priesthood of Christ

26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.[color=#990000][/color]

Paul’s message was also not a call to tithe and there was never a call by Paul for the Children of Abraham to support the priesthood of Melchizedek. My Brother please wke up.