₦airaland Forum

nuclearboy:
@Zikky:

Yes, they don't look like they ever saw 600K talk less of 60 Million but have you considered the fact that CE acolytesmainly steal "for" CE? I wouldn't be suprised if investigations show they used ALL the money to "sponsor" night of bliss or prosperity convention or to but cars for pastor chris.

Thanks. I forgot.

SirJohn:
I lost everything I invested; it was indeed a dark moment for me.

Good for you SirJohn. Hope you are wiser now.

Joagbaje:
Why is so so evil report you guys enjoy to hear and spread. I,m yet to see you comment or report how many thousands led to christ in pastor Chris's crusade.

You have to consider the possibility that these thousands you refer to were not really led to Christ. Going by what and how you guys preach, there were just there to sort out financial and other problems that have little to do with salvation. The thing is you guys preach what you believe people want to hear so as to retain and win over new customers members. You might have thousands attending your crusade but the sad truth is that you've not made much impact on helping them live like a true christian should. Not when you spend more time telling them to grab their prosperity now (after all it's their entitlement) and teaching them to play God (after all they are god).

[quote author=Nicolas N. link=topic=428448.msg5868748#msg5868748 date=1270938167]See wetin I see ooooo.

"Christ Embassy members shock Pastor Chris Steal N60m church funds"

Chinelo, 21, told Saturday Sun that she wanted to be among the beneficiaries of the prophecy of Pastor Chris Oyakhilome.
According to her, the pastor always talked about speedy prosperity propelled by making the use of available opportunities.
“It’s all about prosperity, increase in speed. That is what Pastor chris taught us in church. That is my own interpretation of what I did. My mind convinced me to toe that path, since I have been seeing all kinds of fraudulent people in the church, and know how they get rich. I thought that if actually they got rich through all these means, I could also get rich doing what I did.”
Chinelo explained that she got the inspiration through the fat accounts of their former managing Director, Pastor Foluke.
According to her: our madam sent Miriam to check her balance, using the ATM machine. She came back and told me that she saw N4 million each in tow of her accounts. I wondered why my madam, whose salary is N62, 000 a month should have such an amount in her account. I remembered that she had been telling me to transfer money from accounts. She also collected money from me when I was handling cash in the bulk unit, saying she was investing. I now realized what she had been doing with all the money she asked me to withdraw and give her. I never knew what is was all about, but when I checked I got the answer. I told Miriam of my plans and she agreed.
“We opened accounts and transferred money into them and thereafter shared it among ourselves. When Mabel discovered what we were doing, I also advised her to join us or die as a pauper, since we were paid N25, 000 a month. She agreed and we continued withdrawing till the fraud was discovered.”
Chinelo, a Guidance and Counseling graduate, revealed that such fraud has been going on undetected because the bank is not well structured. Also, she said that none of the staff had banking experience.
The lady said: The bank is not well-structured. They do not have any professionals running it. We run the bank ourselves. Our madam, who is about 32 years, does not have any working experience. We all started the bank together in November 2008. We were employed through a memo sent to our pastors that they needed hands at the bank. We did not go for any banking training. The madam of the bank does not know anything about banking. We read books to learn about banking.
“I got the job as a volunteer staff of Christ embassy and my primary assignment was to work in the bank. By that time, we were not even given a licence by CBN to start running the bank. I have confessed and asked God to forgive me and I believe He has. My parents are aware, as they asked me to come and report myself and confess everything that I have done.”

http://www.sunnewsonline.com/webpages/features/living/2010/apr/10/living-10-04-2010-003.htm[/quote]The ladies in the picture dont look like they stole N60million.

CONGRATS J-SOUL

[quote author=~Borat~ link=topic=420326.msg5774872#msg5774872 date=1269631632]I'm not condemning anyone, but i've continued to watch with disgust at the continuos uncovering
of years of s#e#x abuse by catholic priests which went uncautioned by bishops and even the pope
I'm just wondering if these abuses would have been if catholic priests were not celibate
I mean these are virile men (full intact  ) who swore not to have any  and maybe later learnt it was an impossible task
OF what use is celibacy in the catholic church?[/quote]Child molestation has nothing to do with celibacy. I’ll buy your line of argument if the report was about priest having secret affairs with the opposite s-e-x. These guys are just sick.

Enigma:
Some possible answers to the two questions

A. How a "church" can be so callous?

1. All summed up in the corrupting work of satan including:
  1.1. Greed and Love of Money
  1.2. Love of Power and Position
  1.3. Ignorant entrapment in false doctrine; too much pride to repent and turn away
  1.4. Lazy and poor hermeneutics
  1.5. Too much vested interest[; too much to lose if they turn away i.e. collapse of the empire, bankruptcy ---- you must keep asking for more   
        money to maintain such a large organisation and large structure/edifices. This is where those who stress thoughtlessly "you need money to
        spread the gospel" are ignorant and sometimes daft (sorry to be blunt). Yes you need money, but you have to be wise both spiritually and
        materially --- Jesus said be as wise as serpents!
  1.6.  etc etc etc etc


B. How the congregation can be so gullible

1. Ignorance and Illiteracy (not even meant pejoratively)
2. Poor education ---- an education culture that encourages accepting (rote learning) without questioning and does not teach proper
comprehension!
3. Natural desire for success and comfort (coupled with either 1 or 2 above)
4. Greed ------ focus on material desire; seeing everything including religion/faith as the means of fulfilling material desires and greed
5. Difficulties in life and hope for a way out#
6. Superstition
7. etc etc etc

??

True talk

Not at a time some other relief organisations are in the process of pulling out. You guys must be going there for the business  The fund will probably be used to set up branch offices ooops, church structures 

Joagbaje:
God sometimes does some things without a mans cooperation but these so called sovereign manifestations still needs human cooperation through intercession. Saul got converted because people are praying. Peter ,Paul got delivered from prison and death because the saints were praying. God is always looking for an intercessor so that his will will come to pass.

Bros, this one pass me ooo. You are on your own here. You believe so much in this agency thing sha. So you can take your 10% commission abi? No forget agreement fee, thats another 10% am sure you can present it in a way that will be acceptable to the congregation

Dont mind me, too much work pressure. Needed a bit of distraction. I hope we are

Joagbaje:
God has good plan for all his children.But the good plan will not work out by itself. because satan is still on rampage, his name means opponent,resistor etc. God has good plan for us all

This i always want to believe, but anytime i remember judas, well  

But it's good to note that the plan differs for every individual.

Joagbaje:
@ Enigma
Gods good plan will not just work out by itself.

Deut. 30:19
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

But you know this describe two scenarios, one of a christian and the other an unbeliever (idol worshipper). For a christian or one pleasing in God's sight, will it be the same?

Enigma:
1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

3. God has left some things to happen or not happen according to the natural order or according to man's decision/action; i.e. God has not imposed a will as to whether some things will happen or not.

I like the way you put it. True, my thoughts differs from Joe's. I was referring to proposition 1 in my post, but with a slight modification. i.e. there are those things that must happen and there are those things that will happen only if we allow the Almighty to lead us. It a mixture of 1 & 3 really.

rhemore:
Sometimes i wonder where the big Churches/Pastors and the up coming ones meet, what is happening to body of Christ, where is the PFN, CAN and other bodies where young ministers can run to for help.

You dont help the competition. It's not good business thinking. They could grow and become powerful enough to run you out of the business. You only help if such gesture will increase the value of your brand and result in more patronage

Joagbaje: Using the phrase let you will be done is like saying "What will be will be" But what will be will not be until you do something about your faith.  The will of God is not suppposed to be a mysterious thing to you. You have the holyghost and you are supposed to know his will, not only that , you are responsible to make his will come to pass in your life. The will of God does not always come to pass until you cooperate with God .

The person praying for the will of God to be done his/her life must be praying with faith. That said i want to agree with Jo here (to an extent) that the will of God can only be done with the co-operation of the other party (This does not take away the fact that God can exercise his will when he chose to, irrespective of our position or view about the issue).  I believe we are given the freedom of choice, as result, people do ask for their will to be done instead of God’s will. Maybe it’s the reason a lot of Christians attend as much church program as available, go for all night marathon sessions and still have unresolved issues.  The issue of material prosperity is an example, it just won’t go round. So, cooperation is very important, what we want, how we live as Christians must align with the will of the Almighty.

Joagbaje:
A pastor teaches people to live right in the society, The church is the ground and pillar of truth. The church is the last hope of reformation for people.

It should be. But is the church really making much impact on society in this regard? I dont think so. Maybe the more conservative churches like Anglican, Baptist, Catholic e.t.c We dont derive such value from the activities of most pentecostal churches.

jaffi:
No bi so!if they came in poor and they listen well and apply God's principles accordingly in faith and good conscience
then their prosperity is inevitable.
They can't remain poor for too long.

I dont know why guys avoid my questions. Is it because there is no answer? I dont think it should be that difficult to defend Are you saying people are poor in your church because they dont listen well to the pastor? what are these principles? I dont think you will be successful at wining souls if you cant defend what you preach.

jaffi:
How did things being to change
i will tell you in my next post.

I am still waiting.

aletheia:
What difference is there between what you said from the serpent's:

Are you saying there is a connenction between the serpent and  ? I think you are on to something here 

mba emeka:
remember you’re rich in Christ Jesus . You say father I thank you I’ve got all I need.

I don’t understand you. This appears to be an expression of satisfaction and contentment with present status.

mba emeka:
We don’t tell people to chase after money (wealth) we tell them that God has made provision for them to prosper in anything they do since they’re in Christ. Thus we say if you’re a doctor be a doctor with a difference! If you’re a trader-be a trader with a difference! If you’re a bus conductor- then be one with a difference! God has made provision for you to make it wherever you find yourself because you’re in Christ Jesus! If this isn’t good news I wonder what is.

This is motivational talk. I asked a simple question, why is the poor in your church not benefiting from this prosperity gospel you are preaching? Are you saying they refused to accept it? Maybe there is more to this prosperity thing than you are preaching. I believe you are not providing full disclosure here.

jaffi:
@
it's available but for the fact that it's available does not mean that everyone is going to get it.
just like salvation,it's available to all but we all know that not all will accept this precious salvation.
the same goes for the inheritance.
wealth ,riches ,health etc.

I believe you post just to support and make ur oga happy. Are you saying the poor in your church deliberately refused to claim their wealth? or they are yet to accept salvation? Maybe your pastor is not doing his job then. He should be addressing the matter of saving souls instead of condemning them to hell.

Pastor AIO:
The question for me is not whether or not God owns the world and whether we therefore have a right to everything in it. This whole business is so messy, convoluted, and distorted. And this is all because of one thing.

We are not considering that we each have an allotment in life. A portion. An appropriation. An inheritance. So therefore prosperity is not just having a lot of what the world has got to offer, but rather to have that which has been reserved for us to have.
Any preacher that says, 'look at me and how God has blessed me, if you pay your tithes then you will be similarly blessed', such a preacher is a liar. If indeed the preacher is enjoying wealth that has been appropriated for him by God then he should encourage his congregation to seek their own portion that is theirs, rather than seek something like his.
Yoruba says, A a ki fi Ori we Ori. We don't evaluate one Head (ori) by the measure of another head. Each one has got his own and should seek to come into his own. To seek for any other prosperity in this world than to prosper in the role that has been carved out for one by one's creator is at the heart of all error in the whole wide world.
Money is poisonous because it facilitates this error. I might explain why in a later post, or another thread.

True.

jaffi:
The good management of the wealth is what God is after.

jaffi:
God delivers to you His wealth according to what you can handle unlike the devil he gives gun to a baby!

I think you make some sense here. It might help provide answers to some of my questions. But we talk about this later. Just to put you on alert

Hi Emeka, thanks for your response.

mba emeka:
I hope I have been able to answer your questions.

I think you said a lot of things I don’t really need, now I really have to work hard filtering the post to extract answers to my concerns. I would have preferred something more concise. I believe my concern was for you to help me understand how the gospel makes the poor rich. I remember asking for a definition of the saved rich man.

mba emeka:
Salvation doesn’t just mean to save, the word is all encompassing. It’s a state of completeness- health, joy, peace, righteousness, wealth (prosperity), liberty, life etc.

Visualize salvation like a house that God purchased and gave to us with some keys, say nine. Many have received the keys, some have entered into the living room of their salvation but that is where they stop. Brother! Sister! There are eight other keys, what are they for?
When I used one key to open a door in the house i saw divine health in the room and then I knew I’d never be sick in my life! I took another key and opened another door, there I saw riches. I jumped for joy because I knew I’d never be broke in my life!
Are you getting the picture?
God has brought us out of sin to take us into righteousness.
He has brought us out of poverty to take us into wealth.
He has brought us out of stagnation to take us into prosperity.

Please read Acts 26:16-18 and Eph 3:8. It’s really clear!
In a nutshell the message is this- the Christian is not the poor trying to get rich. The Christian is the rich discovering his/her inheritance! Wealth is part of our inheritance!
Salvation is not only to save us from hell it was to bring us from the path of hell to the path of heaven, This is the true gospel!

mba emeka:
Gods will is that we ask in faith and in the name of Jesus. He never told us to ask for what he willed for us (if he willed it to us then it’s already ours we just have to receive it) he always said “, WHATSOEVER “ye” desire”…

He gave us a blank cheque! He is God! Nothing can be too hard for him. Don’t let anyone cheat you of your salvation. He answers yes to whatsoever we want; its part of our inheritance-it’s our right in Christ.

Oh well, what can I say here? I have to say I like the positive feeling you are expressing here. There is nothing wrong in believing we can overcome all disadvantages that will hinder us from achieving prosperity and a sickness free life. With God all things are possible (abi?). The part I don’t understand is to say as Christians we are already rich, and what is left is for us to claim it. Are you saying that all Christians can possess material wealth? How come a larger proportion of Christians are poor today? What will it take for all member of the body of Christ to achieve that level where we can say we have been able to claim the prosperity or wealth due to use? And BTW what is the standard of measurement, so I know I can say I am now prosperous i.e. I have claimed my inheritance.

You see, I still find it difficult to believe that part of the reason the Son of God has to sacrifice himself was for us to be free from the bondage of poverty. Like you said Abraham was blessed, so was Isaac as well as descendants of Isaac. If blessings can be received at the time, then why the need for such sacrifice?

If as Christians we should consider ourselves as already rich (I really do like this feeling), I believe no body dead or alive would know this better than the apostles. They did not preach this, instead they encouraged the selling of properties by the wealthier members for distribution among themselves so needs of the less privileged members of the community can also be satisfied (if this is an approach for the poor to claim their inheritance, I still like it). Christ said we’ll always have the poor with us, what exactly was he saying here? The apostles preached giving to the poor. What about the talk of those preaching the gospel to also live by the gospel? Is that a means of realizing the wealth already conferred?

I hope you don’t mind my asking more questions here, it just to help me have a better understanding of the message you are passing across. Hope to get a response from you. Thanks for your understanding.

If you say the rich saved folks are the men that give cheerfully out of love for God and by extension, love for their neighbor and not because they see giving as an avenue to make more money, I will buy that.

@lastpage, Beautiful

Mavenb0x:
Whats all the fuss about? Whoever does not want to take it can just say BACK TO SENDER!

“The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, “Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.” He said, “Think this way — a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.” And I threw my Bible down… like that. I said, “What?” He said, “A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.” He said, “You are the very image, the very copy of that one.” I said, “Goodness, gracious sakes alive!” And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, “Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?” He said, “Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, ’cause you’re a reborn man too.”

O[size=14pt]M[/size][size=18pt]G[/size] 

My man Tonye-t where have you been? No, dont say it let me guess , . I have been reding your post and can see you are a changed man. Like Kunle noted earlier, i believe love should be unconditional. It shoudn't be to our brothers and sisters alone. I believe expressing that love to somebody not of the faith will make more impact on the person than simply observing the practice.

jaffi:
Let me ask you if the GOSPEL means GOOD NEWS then what is the GOOD NEWS TO THE POOR=MONEY(WEALTH)

If you continue down this path, there is only one destination for you - HELL. If thats is all you can take out of the gospel.

Honestly, i dont think i want to take you seriously, but there is no harm in a little bit of fun here. I want to ask, are you saying good news is not for the rich or healthy as i dont see them in the list of the beneficiaries of the good news? or when the poor become rich (loaded), then the good news is no longer applicable? (maybe thats why most people only remember God when they are in problem). or are you saying the good news is to eradicate poverty from the economy? How then? I think we are missing something here my friend.

@mba emeka, I don’t know what the argument between you and aletheia is all about, but I do find some interesting comments in your post I like you to clarify. I think its good for third parties like us reading your post. If we can find the necessary clarification in your previous posts, it would be nice if you guide me

mba emeka:
Adoration from people who need it; The lost now know they’re saved; sinners now know they’re forgiven; the poor now know they’re rich; the sick now know they’re healed. This is the Gospel!

I would appreciate if you can explain this further especially the “poor now know they are rich” part. Thanks

mba emeka:
Talking about seed Jesus once asked a little boy for his lunch- five loaves and two fish…he fed the multitude with it (twelve baskets remained) and I’m sure he gave the remnants to the little boy because he said “give and it shall be given unto you…good measure, pressed down….shall MEN give unto you”

I don’t think its right for you to make such assumption. You don’t know really.

mba emeka:
The gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God! Rom 1:16 it is powerful enough to make the poor-rich whilst saving them from hell.

I need so clarifications here as well. I need to understand how the gospel makes the poor rich. Thanks

mba emeka:
Jesus said “ if you abide in me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what “ye” will and it shall be done unto you”…isn’t it a contrast from 1john 5:14? Or rather is your own understanding distorted?

mba emeka:
Well, he said “if we ask according to his will he hears us, notice he said he hears us not he will do it but he hears us meaning if we don’t ask according to his will he will not hear us. Do you need a grammarian?
This simply means it’s the way we ask that matters not what we ask because if we abide in Christ and his words abide in us we will ask what we will and it will be given.

I find it difficult to reconcile the posts above. My understanding of your interpretation here is that if we ask in faith we receive. But my question is, how does my faith or belief that i will receive whatever I desire equates to God’s will for me? Thanks.

mba emeka:
The bible says we should ask in faith: without doubting and we should ask in the name of Jesus.

mba emeka:
It’s like trying to phone a friend, if you dial the wrong number your friend will not hear you. It’s not that he/she didn’t want to, it’s just that you asked the wrong way…get it?

I have another problem here. I a bit confused by this. Looking at the first post, my thoughts would be if I dial a wrong number in faith, my friend will hear me. Some clarifications again please. Thanks

mba emeka:
Jesus said to the rich young ruler “have you obeyed the commandments? He responded “all these I have kept since my youth” then Jesus said “Go and sell what you have” …do you see the wealth wasn’t the issue, if it was Jesus would have said it first but he didn’t, he asked the more important first which was the commandment. It was after this, that he said, ”how hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom”, He didn’t say how hard it is for the saved rich folks he said the “rich”. I’m not splitting hairs, he was trying to say some rich people would think they would make it into the kingdom because they where rich and the people then saw riches as a blessing from God.

The gospel is not about making a Christian rich. I am happy you bring this up. I especially like the part highlighted above. Its says a lot about the way we see the prosperity.  

Out of the need to learn here, i would also like to ask, who is the saved rich man? Is it the rich man that gives away his property to stay rich (based on the concept of give and receive more)? Is it the man that gives away his property out of love to meet the need of brother or sister (and probably end up poor in the process)? Some education here will be appreciated. Thanks.

mba emeka:
So how do you give when you have nothing to give? I thought you folks say we should remain at the poor level you where at before you came into Christ. Doesn’t this imply that the more I have here on earth and give towards the gospel the more treasure I lay up for myself?

That’s the logic, you cannot lay up what you don’t have. You have to have it before you lay it up. Comprendre?

It doesn't have to be cash. Rich or poor, there is always something to give. I dont think you will be receiving monetary treasure in heaven either.

GODSON2009:
ask any redeemed member to tell u the time pastor adeboye prophecised at redemption camp some years ago that GOD told him that if everybody in that holy ghost service should die that day,only 5 or 11 people will make heaven

KunleOshob:
If Pasor Adeboye actually said that, then itwould be a big time indictment on himself as the head of the church and the church itself. It means they are running a failed project and NOT leading people to salvation as some of us have always suspected despite all the billions they collect in tithes and offerings every month.

This is serious if true it means no soul have be won after all this time. What was the collections (money) for winning souls used for.

Pastor AIO:
Pastor Joe, abeg don't mind all these sycophants. I will make an excellent asst. pastor and I will ensure that your music program will be the best in the country.

Hmmmm Pastor AIO, Asst. Pastor, Goodluck Church of Christ Inc.

KunleOshob:
i hereby use this opportunity to apply for the position of treasurer in his proposed new venture. Wishing you all the best in your new position of "first pastor" of the federal republic of Nigeria.

You see yourself na?

Where is my man Tonye-tithe? he is likely to be the biggest beneficiary of this new development  

My pastor joe, please remember me when the new venture takes off oooo. you know i was never really in the camp of these people giving you a bad name. I just need the position of accountant. I am very skilled at accounting for tithe and offerings    

woye77:
a lot of churches and pastors believe this should be the norm - pray, then speak to d pastor and pastor speaks to lady on your behalf - what do you think?

The prayer part i agree with. But why should the pastor speak on your behalf when he is not a P.I.M.P