₦airaland Forum

@KunleOshob
I very much believe that most tithe payers agree that there is something wrong with the modern requirement on tithing but find it difficult to accept this cos it will really make a mess of their belief system. This is especially true for those Christians that believe their salvation can only be obtained through their MOG (i.e. they will find heaven only by adhering to the bidding of their MOG). The life of a regular tithe payer will never be the same if he/she stops paying tithe, as those difficulties of life usually experienced on a daily basis and discounted will now be taken seriously (i.e. a consequence of not remitting the outstanding tithe to the church). There is that possibility of the tither losing his/her sanity as a result of this.

Like i will always say you can’t blame people for putting themselves in this situation, it usually results from desperation (the need to get above the poverty line, get a good job, get a husband/wife e.t.c), frustration (after all attempts), uncertainty (need to maintain/improve upon current business/job status), e.t.c. The ability to reason has been taken away from most Christians and replace with a remote controlled brain box (and of course the MOG keeps the remote control!!  ).  It takes people with a very strong will, a belief in their direct relationship with God and ability to reason for themselves (I agree guidance from more knowledgeable people is needed once in a while) to get out of this bondage. Most people in this situation don’t have it.

I would suggest you direct your fight on tithe at the MOGs, that’s the only way you can free most tithe payers from the bondage of modern day form of tithing. Most regular tithers will stop tithing if the order came from their MOG (of course i am aware of that very small population of tithers that tithe out of their own free-will).

banom:
The latest trend today is a word called Seed sowin for divine favor, a situation, where by a smart guy will put on his suit, come on the pulpit and lift the microphone, and start telling crowd of desperate church members how God will divinely motivate men and women to use their recources to favor them, if they sow seed in his life, he will go as far as telling lies of stories of places he went and people sowed seed and he prayed and God blessed them and their lives changed for good, he will tell them , how some body sowed a seed of 50,000naira in his life last year, and two months later, a white man saw the seed sower and gave him a contract that fetched him 50million naira, after hearing all these, the desperate crowed will start imagining a million naira life style they will lead if they sow their last 50,000naira into the life of the man of God, they will never ask themselves,  if this pastor has an annointing that can turn 50, 000naira into 50million naira, why is he still begging for ordinary 50,000naira,

You cant really blame people for moving agriculture to the church, it is stress free (no digging, ploughing, weeding e.t.c.), time to harvest is shorter, returns are higher (afterall, if you use N50K to cultivate maize or yam in the field, your harvest is never going to yield as much as N50million) or so it seems. There is the possibility of food shortage in the future if this trend continues as more & more people will prefer sowing in the church instead of planting yam or cassava in the field

I guess its desperation/frustration. You have the politicians to thank as well. You dont get the kind of crowd in church these days 10/15 years back. Economic and societal demand really push a lot of people to the point of accepting anything you feed them if it will get them out of their current sitiuation. The pastors are aware of this and uses it to their advantage.

Since the pro-tithers believed that Jesus encouraged tithing, and also believed that the apostles were in support of the tithe, i wonder why Jesus was not collecting tithe from the apostles and other believers. After all, he was in a better position to take tithe collections directly upstairs

I have to say i have mixed feelings about this post.

AdoVeritas:
I believed about God and Jesus but thought it was just all rather confusing but this demon was bugging me and I prayed, sincerely, with all my heart for Jesus to help me if it was all true what has been said and written about Him. I wept and wept and that night I went to bed scared again. The demon came back and I was just about to give up with my hope regarding Jesus when something amazing happened!
Jesus' spirit appeared between the demon and me and without going into too much detail, He peeled it out of me and I was delivered.

I am sure you are not providing full details here. It appears you must have offended the devil real bad.

AdoVeritas:
I was quite impressed until everyone was asked to hold hands with someone and start praying in tongues. All of a sudden there was mayhem, a terrible noise of people praying at super sonic speed in jibber jabber and I was in the middle of it drowning.
I instantly felt oppression, it was hitting my chest and I was over heating, it was demonic I gathered as I remembered the feeling of demonic attack. I sweated it out and when the prayers stopped and my ears cooled down we all sat down ready for the sermon.

I guess your experience here was because you have never been present in a prayer session where prayers are conducted in languages not known to man   

AdoVeritas:
Then he came to me and I was given a form to fill in. This form asked me for personal details such as address, email, tel number, and then, occupation and salary.

I guess they need your money.

AdoVeritas:
I was also advised that if I gave to God, He would give me back 1000 times the weight. I was told that I would prosper and become rich and healthy. At this point the demonic oppression became too much for me and I had to leave. I spoke to the guy who prayed in tongues on the mic as I left and he said that I 'should sow the seed' and with more time with their church he could 'teach me everything important in the bible'.

That's what you get in modern day christianity (very common in Nigeria). The farm land has been relocated to the altar. Agriculture is being practice in the church instead of in the field. I guess it's the get rich or die praying trying syndrome. 

AdoVeritas:
I am planning to serve our creator as soon as the time is right. There are children as young as 4 years old being gang raped, beaten and sold everyday, especially in the South-East Asian countries such as Cambodia and Burma who need Jesus, and Jesus commanded us true Disciples to go out and help them and spread the Gospel of Him and 'the (true) signs will follow, '

Good Man! God bless you.

AdoVeritas:
(anyone want to help? contact me, I am preparing to go out there, I have land and contacts out there, your prayers are also welcomed, my email is stevelock76@yahoo.co.uk )

I am sorry, but i will have to approach this part with a lot of caution. 

KunleOshob:
The bible makes it clear that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God and naturally since it is the ultimate goal of christians to be admitted into the kingdom of God this scripture as gained a lot of of popularity in the church, but the question is this: Is the term born again being properly interpreted in our churches?? Apart from the scripture in John 3 where Jesus spoke about being born again which he states belief in him[John 3:16] is a prerequisite for being born again, what most people fail to realise is that Jesus was referring to belief in his teachings and not just belief in him as a person. The question one now asks is what were Jesus core teachings? The central theme of Jesus teachings is love, love for God and love for fellow men. He also went on to teach that you can only love God whom you can't see if you love your fellow men whom you can see. The only other place in the bible were "born again" was mentioned is in first book of peter where peter who was with Jesus when he taught the subject expantiated on it and what did peter have to say in relation to the subject? The verse below says it all:
1 Peter 1:22-23:
22 You were cleansed from your sins when you obeyed the truth, so now you must show sincere love to each other as brothers and sisters. Love each other deeply with all your heart. 23 For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. clearly having love for others is a condition precedent to being born again as Jesus always taught, sadly this fruit is glaringly missing in most of our christian folk who claim to be born again. The question i now put forward is this are they truly born again? Most people assume a show/pretence of Godliness and being religious = being born again. How sadly faulty this delusion is

I have accepted christ as my lord and saviour, i speak over 16 languages (or tongues), i bind the devil regularly (guess he is permanently tied up now), i pay my tithe, first fruit and other offerings to keep the devourer away. Kunle i dont know whatelse is required to be a born again

Just joking (trying to spice up your thread)

I read Jagunlabi's last post, i think he is an alien from planet X (just joking as well).

Will contribute to your thread when i am less busy.

chukwudi44:
please do you mind telling me where God asked[b] christians [/b] to pay tithes and where He commanded it to be done daily,weekly or monthly

Its time you realise we have Jews as christians. Dont be surprise when we start sacrificing cash on the altar. anything to bring the cash into the house of God.

OLAADEGBU:
Tithes and Offerings

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it" (Malachi 3:10).

Today there is much talk of financial security.  The Biblical formula in our text, given to Israel, but applied to all, begins with a scathing indictment.  "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings" (v..  What a terrible thing, to rob God.  The result of their thievery, in God's eyes: "Ye are cursed with a curse" (v.9), such that their financial state was much worse than it would have been had they been obedient.  This teaching and promise has not been rescinded (Luke 6:38; I Corinthians 16:2; etc.).


God's charge to us as given in our text is in three steps.  First, we are told to obey; i.e., "bring ye."  This cannot be considered an option.  Secondly, God proposes a test. "Prove me," He says, give and see if He lives up to His promises.  Thirdly, trust His promise to meet our needs.

Note that His promise is also threefold.  It abundantly covers present needs, for He promises to "pour you out a blessing" unmeasurable in quality or quantity.  Likewise it covers the threat of future loss.  "And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field" (v.11).  Most precious is His promise to reward obedience and trust with a special relationship: "All nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land" (v.12).

Thus we see that with less than 100% of our income at our disposal, we will have greater financial security than if we had kept it all to ourselves, thereby robbing God. JDM

It quite obvious that it requires the grace of God for one to be freed from bondage, especially one that is self imposed. I have nothing much to say here. I will just add my thoughts on what good christian living is all about (regarding the act of giving)

As a christian, one is required to meet the need of his/her neighbor without thought of reward. The act of christian giving is not a business. Giving should be done because it pleases you (gladdens your heart); because it gives joy to the recipient; because it is the right (Godly) thing to do; because it pleases God  anytime you give.

Giving in church in whatever form with the expectation that you will be swept away with a flood of blessing as you step outside the church premises (as windows of heaven will be opened) is not what christ preached. Giving should not be a business of give and take (this is in-sincerity on our part and is against what the Apostles preached). This is what the ultimate commandment is all about; Love God & love your neighbor as yourself. By doing this the need of those that lacks will continue to be satisfied from the surplus of those that have. Indirectly we have paid our tithe but not be a pre-determined percentage. We are Christians, and not jews and as a resulted not bounded by the law. The act of Christian giving has been twisted because of the issue of financial security.

Sadly only those live under the curse get cursed for non-compliance.

But if you do take a tenth of your earnings and drop in the storehouse (church coffers) that there will be meat (raw cash) in Gods house (Church bank account), and the windows heavens pour out blessings in abundance, its all good and i will always rejoice with you (please dont hesitate to invite me when you party).

Tonye-t:

@zikkyy nice to meet you ,

Nice to meet you too. 

Tonye-t:

2. Now to you zikkyy, please when you read Matt.23:23, did that verse looked/sounded/seemed/acted/voiced like Jesus said titheing should not be practised again, just this question for you, prolly your answer may even end this topic who knows

Matt.23:23 - "Jesus said, Practise mercy, practise justice, practise faith and also do not neglect to pracitise tithe (MATT.23:23 -Hebrew-English paraphrased bible)

PLS WHAT DID JESUS SAY HERE AND DOES IT SOUND LIKE TITIHEING SHOULD BE ABOLISHED, BE IT QAL OR TERUMUOT?

To answer your question, i would say Jesus was in support of the practice of tithing (as stipulated in the book of the Law).


But as earlier stated by the "anti-tithers" i.e. ttalks, kunleoshob and others (please pardon me), Jesus lived under the law.

Galatians 4; 4-5 (4: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.)

The issue of whether the law was done away with after the death of Christ is quite debatable. Paul's in his letters to the Romans & Galatians stated that we are put right with God (saved) not by adherence to the Law but through faith in Christ. i.e. we are set free from the power of sin and death.

Galatians 2; 16 (Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.)

Galatians 3;19 (19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator)

Galatians 3; 23-25 (23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.)

Does this mean that compliance with the law is no longer required? As a means of obtaining salvation, it appears so. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it has been done away with, i believe it is still necessary for good christian living (atleast some part of it) and the law has been summed up in one word, "Love"

Galatians 5: 14 (14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Romans 13: 8-10 (8(A) Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for(B) the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9For the commandments,(C) "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this wordD) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore(E) love is the fulfilling of the law.)
   
As christians i believe we are not obligated to adhere to the requirement of the law. This can also be infered from the decision taken by the Apostles in Acts 15 when faced with the issue of Gentiles (i believe we christians are not jews) being circumcised and made to obey the law. The Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit agreed on some necessary rules that should be followed by the gentiles. (See Acts 15 for this.). They were not required to follow the law as this will not lead them to being put right with God.

By showing love to our neighbour we would have fulfilled the law of tithing. i.e. we would not neglect the needy widows, orphans, even levites if they can be found (to the best of each persons ability). That brings me to the issue of modern day priests/pastors/G.Os taking the position of Levites in the church (thats the impression i get anytime the issue of tithing comes up). The Israelites were quite strict on this as there must be proof to confirm a levite ancestry before he can qualify as a priest.

Nehemiah 7:63-64 (63Also, of the priests: the sons of Hobaiah, the sons of Hakkoz, the sons of Barzillai (who had taken a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by their name). 64These sought their registration among those enrolled in the genealogies, but it was not found there, so they were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. 65(A) The(B) governor told them that they were not to partake of the most holy food until a priest with Urim and Thummim should arise.)

Tonye-t my understanding of your post is that tithing in general (& not tithing under mosaic law) is still relevant. Maybe so. But we do not have good details of other form of tithing is practiced. Modern day practice makes reference to mosaic law. Even if we do agree that tithing under mosaic law is still relevant, is the modern day practice in accordance with law? No.

Tonye-t:
[font=trebuchet ms][color=#000099]@Ttalks,

4. I have explained it here time and time again with scriptures to back that never was there a place that spotted titheing as a law, TITHEING BEGAN BEFORE THE LAW, ABRAHAM GAVE TITHE BEFORE MOSES GAVE THE LAW, this thing called tithe began as did circumcision, as did offerings, as did prayers, as did mercy, as did justice,as did faith, what Moses gave the people was ONLY A PATTERN OF HOW THIS ANCESTRAL PRINCIPLE SHOULD BE PRACTISED IN HIS OWN TIME AS WELL (for christ sake dont you read the bible) go back and read Lev. again and you'll here statements like this___. . . now regarding the law of cereal (burnt/sin/trespass etc] this is how my people should keep it" now isnt that much of a pattern than a principle in itself? na wa o,must i explain everything here for you guys as if i am feeding my babies, goosh whoever is saying that Jesus called tithe a law is simply pathetic believe me, did he call it a law or did he said they gave according to the law does these two statements mean the same thing?. The Titheing Abraham gave was not as the Law specified it, that is why they both mean different thing, In hebrew the Tithe Abraham practised was called QAL (meaning a practise of giving one's one-tenth) and that of the mosaic era was called TERUMUOT (meaning to tithe according to a provision given), pls get a hebrew bible and read further on this, one is a PRACTISE and the other a PROVISION, God what else can i say more

I am not a legal person so my understanding of the term "law" might not be so good. But i dont quite agree that tithing is not part of the law written by Moses. The book of the law provides rules which the Israelites are expected to comply with and it carries rewards for compliance and punishment for disobedience. Since the contents of the book of the law includes the requirements or rules relating to tithing, i dont see why you should not consider it part of the law. For me, to say it is not a law (atleast in biblical terms) means we should not consider other rules contain in the book as laws. Various terms (law, decrees, ordinance, statutes, judgments e.t.c depending on the version of the bible you read) were used to describe the content of the book but they were never seen as "patterns". Agreed that the act of tithing was in place before the mosaic law, the mosaic law specifies a new way of practice (i.e. to be performed at the one place of worship; compulsory vs act of freewill; can be converted to cash if the one place of worship is too far; to be performed at specified time e.t.c.). It is also quite possible that tithing was being practice by non israelites (as a way of life) in the original (and varying) forms even after the mosaic law was issued, but we dont have good details of the original form of practice. What was being practice by the israelites up to the time of Jesus was in accordance with the mosaic law. The tithing practice of modern day christians is also in accordance with the mosaic law.

I am quite sure that included in the Nigeria constitution today are activities that you would call a practice of our fore-fathers, but that does not mean they are not laws to which we should adhere to in modern day living. I think the fact the practice of tithing being included in the law book makes it one.

You have to work harder to convince me otherwise.

chukwudi44:
tithes wee meant to be shared between,levites,orphans and widows,these days widows and orphans are left out.

Why dont these churches start sharing tithes equally b/w pastors,widows and orphans,aterall they are also meant to partake of these tithes.

I dont think there is enough tithe collections to go round. Lets settle church liabilities first, surplus (if any) will be shared equally b/w widows & orphans, the modern day Levites (church workers) might even get to have a share. But if the congregation is willing to increase their tithe remittances by another 10% of their earnings,

ttalks:
Welcome from your obvious absence Tonye.

Now get this right: None of us are condemning the law(I wonder how u could reach such a conclusion).

Also,we never said Jesus hated the law. All we've established here is that he brought it's need and relevance to and end with his death.

You ask " how come he participated in it if he abolished it?"

Well, if u have been properly going through what most of us have been saying(it's quite clear now that u haven't really done justice to that) you would not ask us that question because:

- we have repeatedly affirmed it on this thread and so many other threads that Jesus Christ was born during the dispensation of the law.
- he lived according to the precepts of the law because he had to fulfil the law.
- also, as long as the law was in force, he expected every other person there and then to walk and live according to the law.

Now, the main thrust of our argument is that:

- the law had shown in many ways than one that it would be replaced by a new covenant. And the death of Christ on the cross was the complete and total fulfilment of the law; thereby ending it(not destroying it as some of you think we imply), setting it aside, and the beginning of the new covenant.

Rom 10:4(KJV)
(4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:4(ISV)
(4) For Christ is the culmination of the law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:4(CEV)
(4) But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith.

Here is a commentary on the verse above:

All we need to do is to believe in Christ and we are justified. We do not have to perform any requirement of the law to be justified before God.
All we need to do is believe in Christ and live according to the provisions of his new covenant.
The need for the law of Moses has been taken care of by Christ. Our righteousness is in him since he fulfilled all the requirements of the law.

So, no more adherence to an ended law by Christians.

True talk

Epiphany:
I like this answer.

Honestly, i dont think that stressing a 1.1L engine for that distance is fair. As a driver, i dont think you will enjoy the drive either. I would think that instead of spending 1.5M naira or thereabout on a new car (that will suffer the wear and tear of that distance due to the roads and stress on the engine) why dont you spend 2M on a very good imported car from America (Honda, Toyota, etc) as advertised here in Nairaland. Many of those cars have done less that 20000m (some even less than 10k) and will serve you well for a few years or more.

Regardless of the newness of the picanto, driving on those roads in the east with trailers, lorries, luxury buses, 15 seaters and so on is no joke. They will 'blow' you off the road. Consider also the mentality of those drivers on the road. The smaller your car is, the more likely they are to 'chance' you each time they have the opportunity. Consider your safety too. We do not pray for accidents but imagine what will happen to a picanto if a bigger car (and not even a trailer) runs into it.

Picanto's are best for inner city roads where you can save on fuel costs, easily manouvre btw bigger cars and park in the smallest space. They are not built for long journeys especially on very rough roads.

This is a very good response.

Picanto is made for city driving and not highway. Though as a new car it can go anywhere in Nigeria. You should also consider your safety as well. Bigger cars provide better cover on the road for the passengers.

chukwudi44:
I have asked this question on nothing less than 20 occassions without getting any answers ,so I now decided to create a seperate thread for it.

Pro-tithers tells us that tithe is still valid in christianity,assuming that assertion is true we are supposed to continue tithing as laid down in the bible.

The Bible did mention 2 types of tithes

1melchizedek tithe-paid once in a lifetime

2.levitical tithe-paid once in thtree years.(deut 14;28,26:12)

I use to see tithing obligation as an annual event. Numbers Ch. 18; 21-32 appeared to be specific regarding title to the tithes which the Israelites gives as contribution to God (i.e. to the Levites only). Deut 14;28 requires the tithe to be shared with Levites, foreigners, orphans, widows e.t.c. I see the third year tithe as another form of tithe or as another way of paying the annual tithe. My perishable farm produce can rot if i have to wait three years to give it out.

Let me have a go at your question below (though am not one of the pro-tithers to which the question was directed):

chukwudi44:
I have asked this question on nothing less than 20 occassions without getting any answers ,so I now decided to create a seperate thread for it.

What I want to find out is where the daily,weekly and mothly tithing practised today came from,I have searched thru my bible and can't seem to find a single verse to justify this practice ,so i want tithers to justify this practise

I guess its because the church bills/needs comes in more regularly. I dont think you want to a church to wait three years to settle its liabilities. 

I have gone through this thread at different times and at this point would like to add my thoughts as well.

I agree that the act of giving a tenth was practiced before the time of Moses i.e Abrahams giving a tenth from the spoils of war (note that he did not keep the remaining 90% for himself) or Jacob dedicating a tenth of his blessings to God (out of freewill). Tithing was made a compulsory act as part of God’s commandments to the people of Israel (as contained in the Law of Moses). The practice of setting aside a tenth of your Agricultural produce and remitting same to the Levites (or accumulating in the temple’s storeroom for subsequent distribution to the Levites) was in accordance with the Law of Moses. So we can say the practice of tithing by the Israelites after Moses was based on the Law. Tithing as practiced by modern day churches appears to be derived from the requirement of the Law of Moses as well especially when reference to Malachi 3:10 is used to justify the need for Christians to pay tithe. There is no evidence to prove that the early disciples preached tithing.

Giving is good (in whatever form) and should be encouraged, but Christians should not be coerced to giving. For me, the practice of tithing should be personal (and from the heart) as i see nothing wrong with one offering a tenth of his earnings to the Church to show appreciation to the Almighty for his goodness. The act of giving by today’s Christians appears to have been commercialized as most givers sees the act as an investment (a return is expected in the form of abundant blessings). This can be attributed to the prosperity preaching by the church.