₦airaland Forum

Mr_Anony: As for what is wrong with tattoos; Yes they were originally done as part of idol worship and that is why God told the Israelites not to do them. . . . but today, tattoos can be done for fun/body decoration with absolutely nothing fetish to it.

Mr_Anony: I agree to all these but what I am not seeing is how tattoos are sinful other than you feel it is sinful.

Yes I know the origin of tattoos but then I hold that the origin of a thing does not make such a thing bad.
For instance the origin of the olympics was a festival to Greek gods and godesses. Is it therefore wrong for Christians to partake in olympic sport because the origin came from idol worship?

No mind them jare. some are always looking for one thing or the other to condemn just because they don't like that activity.

ijawkid: I bet smoking of marijuana and cocaine was mentioned there too...right??..........

and what's wrong with smoking marijuana and cocaine

goshap: Lets get practical:
IF I COME TO UR CHURCH N START RAINING CURSES N INCANTATION .............

.........and everyone will shout a big 'Ameeeeen' or hallelujah that's what HumbledbYGrace pastor(ress) was talking about.

Mr_Anony: My friend do you mean to tell me that if I preach to a young native Swahili girl who walks around n[color=#000000]ake[/color]d as part of their culture, that the Holy Spirit won't work with her because she is n[color=#000000]ake[/color]d? I don't think so.

In fact I will go on to say that if Jesus had not been Jewish but was ancient Igbo, he would most probably have walked around dressed in nothing more than a loincloth and his mother Mary (or maybe her name in this case would be Amaka) would have also walked around to[color=#000000]ple[/color]ss.

The point is that the gospel as much as it is steeped in Jewish culture, it is not Jewish culture. Christ by far transcends nationalities and cultures. Please don't reduce Him to petty cultural observations and customs.

Good talk. Am with Anony on this one. The 'idea' of a tattoo should not be considered a sin jare. But I still don't understand why people do it sha

Goshen360: @ honourhim,

Thanks so much for the indepth contributions. However, in my Op if you read. I mentioned that the tongues in Acts 2 was a well known tongues that was understood by men present.

There's also a praying tongues as revealed in 1 Cor. 14: 2 and 14. It is the tongues with which we talk to God for NO ONE understands such and it is UNKNOWN or NOT UNDERSTOOD by anyone except God, not even the one that prays/speaks in tongues.

Joagbaje & co speak in very strange tongue even God does not understand

HumbledbYGrace: Iam still trying to wrap my head around speaking in tongues. Its a huge problem @ church

We had a girl my age 21/22, she was delivered @ our church from demon posessions though it wasn't her first time to be delivered in a christian church. She kinda told us those 'their scary stories'. Few sundays later she gave a testimony, she spoke in tongues at the alter and our female Paster just got up and cut her in the middle of tongue speaking moment. I was buffled, it wasn't a pleasing scene and m sure da whole church was.

Now this female Pastor told us to be aware on how we say 'amen' to everything. Because the devil also speaks in tongues and from that day..we having people leaving the church saying we r being dictated and stuff. I wanna know if our female pastor was wrong.

while we wait for Bishop Evangelist Pastor Goshen to deliver a 'prophetic' response to your question, i will just add my opinion; Your pastor interrupting the lady could either be out of ignorance or she knows what she is talking about. I mean, for somebody that goes for deliverance (from demon possessions) as a routine, what is the guarantee she was not chanting some evil spell? I want to agree with your pastor that anybody can speak in 'tongues' and it's not everything you say 'amen' to. As long as the tongue speaking is not in a language known to man, i don't even trust any interpretation.

Joagbaje: It's simple . I was trying to debunk the idea that its wrong to be motivated by end result in giving . God gave His only son with the hope of having many sons. That's motive.

..and i have shown that the end result and approach to achieving the end result matters. afterall armed robbers are motivated by an end result. we really need to be careful to ensure we get it right. selfish/greedy act in our attempt at receiving God's blessings is wrong.

Joagbaje: Jesus commanded a practice .look AT these scriptures again without biase pls

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Who is bias? joagbaje or zikkyy? i don't go about ripping one line statements from the bible and interpreting it to suit my motives. You have to consider verses before or after these statements to understand the intentions of the writer. if giving and receiving is a means to wealth, Paul would have encouraged the early christians to give to him so they can 'hammer' instead he went about collecting from those that have to meet the need of those that lacked. Paul even talked about the possibility of those you helped today being available (when they have) to also assist tomorrow

2 Corinthians 8:14
New International Version (NIV)
14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality,

You think the above is a quote from somebody that believes giving will make you richer by continuing to yield more returns?

Joagbaje: Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked:for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Maybe you should add verse 8-9 to better understand that statement;

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

It's true you reap what you sow. I don't see how this support your principle of giving for returns. if we don't sow rightly we will reap destruction. giving for selfish interest is sowing to please the flesh and you already know what awaits such giver.

Joagbaje: And what is wrong with this MOTIVE to give and receive? Is there any place God condemn it.? . You should let the word of God form your opinion and not let your opinion override the word of God.

There is nothing wrong with a motive to give and receive. If you practice giving and receiving as a motive, visit the stock market or money market. The church is not the right place for it. Paul also believed in the practice of giving and receiving, but does not share similar motive with you.

1 Corinthians 9:11-14 (NIV)
11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Did Paul sow spiritual seed for the purpose of reaping material harvest? i don't think so.

Joagbaje: Firstly there are different kinds of givings . I can do thanksgiving offering just to appreciate God. Either he bless or not. "Just take am papa" but when we say SEED SOWING. It's a different ball game. A seed is sown with a motive which is the harvest.

I told you before, take your seed sowing to the farm, am sure you have land in your village. if you want to invest visit the stock market you cannot sow using an act that God commanded should be done in love. if God says giving should be done in love, you can not use it as means to wealth creation. it's that simple. Paul told us that love is not self seeking (selfish interest like sowing to hammer ), so how is it possible to show love by sowing into a needy brother or sister or even supporting the church when your motive was how to enrich yourself or improve your situation

1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Honestly Jo, if you can consider giving for the purpose of harvesting returns, then you are there yet. Don't even consider yourself a christian.

1 John 3:17 (NIV)
17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

truthislight already told you; seek ye first the kingdom........

Take his advice

1 John 3:21-23 (NIV)
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Joagbaje: You didnt buy such idea before.

your problem is that you don't take time to read posts, as long as that poster's view does not align with yours. i have been saying the same thing. Can you show me where i stated something different?

Joagbaje: What's the difference? Pastor Paul's says . "We have a project here, give charitably, if you give small ,you will receive small small . If you give big ,you will receive big big". Why hail Paul and condemn others . Is it not thiesame principle ?

Because i understood Paul to be providing assurance and not telling his audience to give for the purpose of receiving even more. When Paul encouraged hospitality to strangers do you think he was telling his audience to welcome strangers for the purpose of receiving angels?

Hebrews 13:1-2 (NIV)
13 Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. 2 Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.

In the same manner, when he said (according to you), 'give big and you will receive big'. he is not saying give big to receive big. I hope you noticed the difference.

follow up to my illustration above

Now joagbje, consider a situation where some of your workers say the very 'crooked' finance director of your company now goes to your second son and inform him that you just took deliveries of some 2013 range rover suv. then tells the son that he should give him the 2012 toyota prado he is currently using in compliance with your directive that he should give to receive more (on the belief that you joagbaje will your son one of the 2013 range rover in the garage for being a good boy and adhering to your instructions). This is what the prosperity preachers teach.

The instruction was to give in love to those that needs it and not to those that are already loaded (you pay your finance director well). The instruction was to give for love, because that is what pleases you and not give so that he can come for more.

Pastor Kun: On the contrary joagbaje does not sow any cash. He is a receiver of sown cash and hence a direct beneficiary of the sowing of others. This is the obvious reason why he still preaches these false/twisted doctrines. He benefits from it.

I know. am just respecting his wishes to keep out his real person from NL. so am treating him like i would treat any other poster.

Joagbaje: Your claim was that its wrong to give with expectation. And wrong to encourage people to give with expectation. Your claim is to give rather without expecting . And I gave those scriptures to show the error of such teaching .

Let consider that you Joagbaje have two sons in boarding school. Now Joagbaje is rich he has everything in the world and loves to share with the poor. Now you have told your boys that they should share all you have given them with fellow students that comes from poor homes i.e. those that cannot pay their school fees, feed, or buy the necessaries required to stay in school. Now your first son understands you perfectly and knows even if he exhaust his supplies, daddy joagbaje is always there, so no issues he goes ahead and continues to assist his fellow students (those in need) knowing it pleases you to see him do this. Now your second son wonders what happen when and if he runs out of supplies before the end of term/semester. you reply this way; "am i not your father? why are you worried that you will ever run out of supplies by giving what you have to the needy? as you give, i will replenish even more"

Now is daddy joagbaje telling the son to give for the purpose of coming back to receive more? or is he just providing assurance that 'no worries, givers never lack'.

Christ and the apostles did not teach that we should give for the purpose of receiving more, the verse you posted provides assurance that our acts of love will not go un-noticed.

This is my message to prosperity (casino) gospel faithfuls this Sunday afternoon:

Hebrews 13:5 (NIV)
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

truthislight: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
and all these things shall be added unto you. " (Matthew 6:33).

I think it's lack of faith or something. Joagbaje cannot wait for God to add the bonus, or maybe he does not believe or trust that the bonus will be added. That's why he is 'sowing' cash left, right and center in the hope of receiving 'money rain' from God.

Joagbaje: Don't you think If you aware alive in the bible days you will criticize even paul or Jesus? .

Why criticize Paul when i very much agree with his messages? the disagreement is on your interpretation of Paul's message.

Joagbaje: So what do you say to this verse?

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Don't you think If you aware alive in the bible days you will criticize even paul or Jesus? . I still think you should get another bible

You know if you place a white man in front of these three people; a government contractor, a militant and a cannibal, they will see different things or different ways the white man will be useful. The contractor will be thinking of the additional doors that can be opened with the white skin, and the militant will be seeing dollars to be made from kidnapping the man while the cannibal will be salivating (it's been long he ate white monkey pepper soup )

It the same thing when we read the bible; reading the whole of 2 Cor. 9, a true Christian whose heart has been shaped by the holy spirit will be encouraged to share (happily) in love, he will be more charitable, giving without expecting anything in return because he knows that it pleases God (God loves a cheerful giver). prosperity (casino) gospel adherent reading 2 Co.9:6 (they are not going to read the whole of 2 Cor. 9, cos only verse 6 appear to apply to their cause)will see justification for relying on the act of giving to the pastor as a 'get rich quick scheme'.

Have told you before, nobody is arguing that givers will not receive God's blessing, and God will not abandon those that have subjected themselves to the gospel of Christ. Paul is telling his audience to be generous, to be charitable; but it must be done right i.e. "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver". "......it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.."

Encouraging his audience to give by stating that they will not lack because God is there for them is not the same thing as saying they should give for the purpose of receiving from God. This is where we differ in our interpretation. The condition or motive of the heart is what makes the difference. Christ and the apostles did not teach that the act of giving should be used as a wealth creation scheme. The bible teach that we should love, we should be charitable. How do you give in love when you are thinking of the profit accruing from that particular act. both motive are not compatible; it's either you give in love or you give for profit. where do you stand?

Joagbaje: Thats your carnal interpretation. Is it wrong to be motivated by end result. God was motivated by result . Jesus was motivated by result. Paul was. You really have to write a new bible dude

You always get it wrong. If you have been reading, you would know that the issue is not about being motivated by end result. The end result here is prosperity/wealth. Now consider Bill gate & James ibori path to achieving this end result and tell me if there is nothing wrong with ibori's approach. Even the armed robber is motivated by an end result. Your path towards achieving wealth tells who you truely are. For the man that will give only when he is hoping for financial returns, it tells us the character of the person. And we already told you greed is the motivation for such action and God cannot be deceived.

ezme: Please elaborate on the bolded

Forget it. If you are waiting for Joagbaje to elaborate, you will wait forever. Even Joagbaje does not understand his own post

truthislight: fraud stars. That is what @lagerwhenindoubt say they do, cherry picking scriptures to defraud the sheeple.
Crook!

@bolded, i think oiseworld is yet to achieved celebrity status 'Crook' will do

^^^ Lol! oiseworld is after the money. am not sure he is really interested in Christ. It's all about the profit accruing from church business.

jacobscros: im sure the prophecies from him on d phone or email will be very real to your life. I wish I was that trusting then I would pay but u just never know if u are sinning thru ur actions by endorsing such predictions over ur life almost like tarot reading....

The bolded is one problem i have with the site. why pay for a message from God and to be delivered via the prophet? Did he pay to receive from God and therefore require a refund? do you charge fees to deliver a message from God? It should be free and there should be no strings attach to the partnership. If i want to partner, it will be freely in support of his efforts.

Image123: all armchair critics of Bible translations are advised and requested to do their own translations make we see, or keep shut.

I agree with you on this one not completely sha, but i agree. It's not possible for everybody to learn greek just because we don't trust the versions in circulation. i can just imagine the 75 years old convert in my village (that can't even read or write in English or any language) attempting to translate from the original greek manuscript some people must rely on others and trust that the information being shared is accurate.

oiseworld: Oga no be so naw. "Giving motivated by greed"

lol !!!. You are missing it.

Am not missing anything. If you give because of profit, it means you will not engage in that same transaction if there was no profit attached.

oiseworld: You claim to be a pastor following God sheepishly, have you ever stop to ask God your reward for following him. Even if you won't ask, he will tell you. He will reward all is followers and that is the basis. REWARD, REWARD, REWARD...

If u don't believe in heaven or hell, then you need not follow God... Don't bring dat I love him rubbish, it doesn't exist.

You continue to show your true colors. To think you consider one of the greatest commandment to be rubbish is just something else.

oiseworld: NAME ANY TYPE OF GIVING AND I WILL SHOW YOU HE HAS A REWARD FOR IT ALSO.... SO HOW THEN DO YOU GIVE UNCONDITIONALLY WHEN THERE'S ALREADY A REWARD ATTACHED. NOT MINDING IF YOU ARE INTERESTED OR NOT.

So tell us the reward for giving motivated by greed, the reward for those that will give only when there is profit to be made from such giving.

oiseworld: Have u ever asked why we serve God and not Live our lifes the way we want it?....Because theirs a reward, so let it stick into your head God will REWARD every good deed.

Was your decision to serve God driven by the desire to be prosperous? If that is the case, you better be concerned bout your true status with God. cos acceptance is not yours to decide. It is at God' prerogative. And I know he will not accept pretenders.

oiseworld: When a farmer sows in the farm, does he walk away without expecting to reap what he has sowed. Or you think God is a debtor? That he would not repay you for every act of kindness/giving that you do. Not minding if you do it because he asked you to do it or because you are just kind.... Ooboy give yourself brain.
Maybe you don't need the money that's why you're a free giver. GOD IS NOT A DEBTOR.
....If you don't get ur reward here on earth, you would get it in the world after if you make it.

How did you come to the conclusion that God must perform his part for every act of giving you undertake? God is not indebted to anybody for their actions. It is the same God that shows kindness to the ungrateful & the wicked. You think these categories of people did anything to receive God's kindness? If you were to pay God for giving you the opportunity to counted as one of his, do you think you can complete the payment in your lifetime? God rewards if he wants to, when he wants to & how he wants to.

jacobscros: did u read d prophecies? im sure they must have related to ur situation in some way?

Those are general statements and not person or reader specific. If that page get 2 billion views you don't expect that God will be have the same message for 2 billion viewers.

Joagbaje: Stop reading meaning into Jesus simple teaching . It's a universal law.

I should stop reading meaning into Jesus simple teaching. Why? because you have sole right to read meanings into Christ teachings abi? By posting that quote, were you not reading meaning into it? to suit your objective?

Let me even agree that it is a universal law. By stating that law, was Jesus preaching that giving should be driven by the need to benefit from this universal law? was he saying that the motive for our given should be driven by the need to receive? is that the message from Luke 6? tell me

Joagbaje: Philippians 4:17
But though I appreciate your gifts, what makes me happiest is the well- earned reward you will have because of your kindness.
[/color]
So If you call biblical principle casino. Then you may have to write another bible

Every giving has a reward . If you must be a receiver , you start the giving .

you are so focused on your version of the principle of giving and receiving you fail to get the message. Every action comes with its reward. sinners will reap their reward just as believers will reap theirs. in your quote above, Paul is telling the Philippians that what makes him happiest is the well-earned reward accruing to the Philippians as a result of their kindness. Now what does it mean for one to be kind? again you can see that it is a matter of the heart. is the man giving because of the expected reward showing kindness or is he just engaging in a business transaction (for profit)? Paul talked about the Philippians showing concern in verse 10:

10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it.

Now giving because you have a genuine concern for the welfare of a brother (in need) cannot be the same as giving to that brother because of the benefit you want to receive. Your actions cannot be driven by both motives at the same time. Its either you give out of love or you give because you also want to receive. Paul is not telling the Philippians to give so as to receive. He rejoiced in their acts of charity and he knew that their action will not go un-noticed by the Almighty. These acts are a reflection of the spirit of God in them.

Joagbaje: Every giving has a reward .

I don't know anything about every giving having its own reward, but i do believe that God rewards when he wants to and how he want to.

Joagbaje: If you must be a receiver , you start the giving .

Funny enough. i have received without giving, and i have given without receiving. It is not my motivation. The problem here is that you still don't understand the issue here. It is not about the existence of a principle of 'giving and receiving', it is about how it is preached. Jesus and the apostles preached that we should give out of love (knowing that God rewards those that fulfills the law of Christ), the prosperity (casino) gospel teaches that we should give so as to benefit from some rewards (rewards as determined by the pastor). Both givings are driven by very different motives.

Joagbaje: Stop reading meaning into Jesus simple teaching . It's a universal law. I quoted three scriptures as witnesses to the truth , you only dwell on one why?

wait make i finish na. am at work and taking my time to respond. abi you go pay my salary?

For better understanding of the quote you posted, you should consider verse 8 as well.

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Apostle Paul is talking about sowing and reaping but what do you sow to please the flesh and what do you sow to please the spirit? I can tell you one thing; the man that gives in love walks in the spirit and the man whose giving is motivated by the so called principle of 'giving and receiving' sows to please the flesh. You reap what you sow, very true. The latter is driven by greed and will reap the reward of the flesh. This is where prosperity gospel leads its practitioners to.

Joagbaje: Paul taught it too.
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked:for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

You continue to mis-interpret scriptures to suit your intentions. was Paul telling the Galatians that they give to receive? is that the message from this chapter? you quoted verse 7, lets continue from verse 9-10 to get a better understanding of the message (NIV):

[color=#990000]9 "Let us not become weary in doing good,for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up".
10 "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers".

If you read from verse 1 you will observe that the focus was all about doing acts of charity (love). a reminder that there are rewards for everything we do should not be interpreted to mean that is the reason or basis for such act. You don't love your brother or neighbor because of what you intend to reap; that is not true love, it is not the kind of love taught by apostle Paul. instead, it is your pastor's teaching (the casino gospel). Apostle Paul taught un-conditional giving and he advised in verse 2 of that same chapter you quoted that we should carry each other burden in fulfillment of the law of Christ.

2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.