₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje: Giving is only an aspect of prosperity and Jesus taught it.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

It's true that Jesus taught giving, but Jesus did not teach 'prosperity (casino) giving' and i think you should take @lager's advise; you will never get it right if you keep interpreting verses in isolation, without taking into consideration preceding verses/chapters. What did Jesus preach? did Jesus preached that giving should be based on the expectations of reward? is that the message in Luke 6:38? Lets read verse 30-34 of the Luke chapter (NIV):

32 “If you love those who love you, [size=14pt]what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them[/size].
33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, [size=14pt]what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that[/size].
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, [size=14pt]what credit is that to you?Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full[/size]".

So Mr. joagbaje, what characteristic or qualities set you apart from sinners? is it because you gave? what credit is that to you? even sinners give! Lets continue reading from verse 35:

35 "But love your enemies, do good to them,and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked"

consider the bit in blue, Christ is telling you character or qualities expected of a Christian. Your heart matters a lot to God. The motivations for giving is very important. Christ is telling us giving out of love (without expecting to get anything back!) is what he desires. He is also telling us in this verse that our giving will not go un-noticed by the Almighty, there is reward for giving out of love. This takes us to verse 38 you quoted;

38 "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap.(AV) For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

So what type of giving are we to follow? is it:
1. giving in love without expectations of returns (as preached by Christ)? or
2. giving for profit in anticipation of 'bumper' returns (the casino gospel as delivered by prosperity preachers)? what credit is this to you cos even sinners do this.

and what is the difference between these two? they are both acts of giving. the intentions or motivations for the giving set them apart. That is the difference between prosperity gospel and that of Christ. God will reward those he wish to reward and Jesus did not say our giving should be based on expectations of reward from God.

jacobscros: went to the prophecy section of d website and was amazed. great stuff

Very serious 'amazement' statement like the one below was a recurring feature.

"BECOME A FINANCIAL PARTNER TODAY AND RECEIVE MORE PROPHECIES VIA EMAIL AND PHONE"

truthislight: ma bros, my hand held device if i type and post and did not cross checked, sometimes, since it is on dictionary word support it changes it to some other words for me o!

You should know i meant cremated. Lol at cemented.

You better disposed off that your device, i think it's possessed (demonic spirit ). Anyways i knew you meant cremated. needed a good laugh if you do prefer 'cemented', i have friends at Dangote cement. As your good friend, i go supply the required quantity of cement for free

Enigma: Thankfully, many others are wiser to think deeper and to move on to a more mature understanding of Christianity.

The sad bit is that lots more are being held down with even bigger chains

Joagbaje: I agree with you. Seeking Gods kingdom Is first . And nobody says other wise. God is not against prosperity . He s the blesser. Prosperity is not the same as worldliness.

We know God is not against prosperity. I don't understand what you meant by prosperity is not the same as worldliness, but i can tell you that teaching people to give for profit/worldly gains (the casino approach to giving) is very much the same as 'worldliness' this (prosperity) teaching is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ and the apostles. Christ and the apostles did not teach that we should give for worldly gains.

^^^ don't know why you are asking us, when the article you posted already answered your question

oiseworld: That's why coming in thru prosperity,good health, heaven, blessings are still the most effective ways of preaching the gospel.

The prosperity preaching is a pastoral creation (a.k.a. casino gospel), you don't win people over to the side of Christ by preaching such gospel. All you succeed in doing is creating a bunch of self centered/greedy characters.

truthislight: If you put the body in the ground it will still rut to dust but will occupy space for a reasonable period of time, if you burn it it will not occupy space and turn to dust instantly, which is batter?

Ok, i may consent that we will miss the oil that will have form fossil fuel thats all.

Lol!

truthislight: lol, ma sis pp.
Seriously i dont mind being cemented.

cemented ke

oiseworld: Lagerwhenindoubt,
The passage I gave was to buttress the fact that it is in giving with a willing heart that you also receive even into abundance of wealth. The prosperity pastors are not WRONG!neither are they misleading, that is my point. in a third world country like Nigeria and Africa at large, nobody want to hear about hell anymore. That message is cruel wickedness to an hungry man who believes in God. I think a better gospel of God's love and delight in your prosperity would be a better message.as long as You end up doing it God's way and serving him better.

and Moreover, all the scriptures u quoted above did not counter mine of prov 11:24. Rather you went on to butress my point further.

The prosperity teachings are very misleading! They are teaching greed. they are not just teaching people to be charitable only when there is a return, they are teaching them to invest (translate as 'sow') where it will yield the highest amount of return! (i.e. give to church/pastor). Giving for returns is never from a willing heart. It implies that giving will not be done when there is no return.

truthislight: talking about kettle calling pot black"

Wetin concern kettle and pot for this matter na

truthislight: guy, people really have to start being focus on how to be creative right from when they are young and not hoping in "miracle" from infancy to school till.

The act of being creative comes with having active imagination and giving it full concentration and being focus.

The bible said we should go to the ant to learn industrouseness, the ant thinks ahead, being practical and not hoping for manna to fall from heaven.

It is not really in our nature to be creative. We know there are exceptions, but not many of them. and it's not that we can't think (there are more people in the category of peeps blessed with the ability), i believe it's more of laziness.

for creativity to yield the desired result you need a conducive environment. am not so sure we have that.

truthislight: Remove crude oil Nigerians will starve since they dont create/design any thing tangible, So, when crude oil dries up, he will see what a fraud he has been.

With all the miracle preaching one would have expected this church members, some of them engineers to design things miraculously through their promise of a miracle and extortion, but no. It just west their brains.

Lol! if you remove crude oil, church fit overflow. atheists will be visiting redeem camp every first Friday

Goshen360: Second, I'm waiting for folks that will come to this thread and tell us this is a 'SPIRITUAL ACT' therefore we cannot speak against 'anointed' man of God or that the man of God has a 'special knowledge' for doing this kind of occult act that we don't have simply because Bishop Wayne T. Jackson said those two men had to 'die and be buried in order to live' to Christ - We ONLY die, buried and raise with Christ through water baptism by immersion and when we die to sin/self that we might live unto Christ - This is scriptural way(s) to 'die in order to live (un)to Christ. Where the heck did these people get these kind of practices from scriptures if not occult. By the way, when people die and are buried, are they buried facing up or down? What kind of madness and ritual is this for God's sake? Our churches need to wake up to the truth of God's word.

There's no rule that says the dead must be buried face up jor whether you like it or not the men have been elevated to the position of gay bishops

frosbel: YES.

The cause of all the confusion in Christendom today, including the creeds etc , can be traced back to the Catholic church.

Don't derail the thread jor the op is asking if being in the catholic church is the reason he is missing out on miracles

Joagbaje: Jet is only a vehicle made for people. Whoever NEEDS it should get it. So long as its a necessity. People once criticized cars , especially NEW cars. After they had approved old jalopy cars as okay for mission works. I tell you if there's need to get a space ship to mars a church should get it!

A space ship to mars is a necessity cos there's no other way to getting there (unless you know how to disappear and appear at any location you so desire). a private jet is an avoidable luxury at this time and it is not a necessity. owning a private jet is not bad, but timing is an issue. a pastor owning a private jet when a much larger percentage of the people around him cannot afford one good meal in a day shows a pastor that is not sensitive to the plight of his people. If you ask me, it is an un-Christlike behavior. It is not a reflection of a man with a conscience.

plappville: See the celebration day, on 21th december, Sans Sebastien fiestas....

How do explain to God, but God i do my own to please you na..

Consider these period festivals as paganism just as proven by History.

I asked you and your crew before, how many of the millions or billions celebrating Xmas are true Christians? I've done my bit trying to give your argument a direction, but it appears you are more comfortable making irrelevant accusations. you waste so much time and effort accusing pagans of worshiping their gods on December 25. If you want to be taken seriously all you need to do is show how those truly celebrating Christ on December 25 worship idols by doing so. You can start by providing an answer to my question, which you guys have been avoiding.

Rich4god: You are still showing me some peoples culture which has nothing to do with xmas. Have you ever seen xmas celebrants walking around the streets wearing a particular uniform or dressed like a particular image. SMH4U...
Seems like i will stay off from this thread cos you are just running around trying to connect xmas celebration to paganism which you have failed. Before, you said its paganism, then worldly celebration and now you are connecting it to another peoples culture. Please try and be logical in your approach.

What were you expecting? when you know plappville is arguing from a senseless checklist, you expect her to be logical? that's not possible na The content of the checklist been debunked already, and she is having difficulties coming up with new accusations

truthislight: the original chop chop guy. Lol.
Na wa for ye o!
Chop de go naa.

Lol! before nko?

plappville: [size=14pt]Times are: [/size]
Valentine's Day === sun god, Cupid(Nimrod), Saturnalia, Baal.

I be think say valentine's day na social event

plappville: Zikkyy which kind accusation na? I talk anything? no, i beg see the scripture in my qoute for @Rich4god ...!
How you dey na? Chop chop don finish till easter?? Usual Seasoning chop chop for Zikkyy...

come, don't insult me. you think say na only xmas & easter i dey chop rice? My 'choppings' no get ending o! it just that xmas chop chop is special cos i get special time off and i always ensure i make the most of it

plappville: It can have to do with astrology, occult, anything that involves the moon, stars fortune telling (gbogboe) etc etc..
and mostly, if you read Deuteronomy 18:10 which is the same as Gal.4:8-10.
They are Refererence to Deut 4:19; & Deut 17:3.

Deut 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Now see: 2 Chronicles 33:6
6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.

What did Paul say? let look: 8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

[size=14pt]Times are: [/size]
Valentine's Day === sun god, Cupid(Nimrod), Saturnalia, Baal.
Easter Time === goddess Ishtar known as Astarte, Oestre, Ostara, queen of heaven
New Years === god Janus
Christmas Time === sun god, Saturnalia.
Saints day (Halloween Time) ==== god Samhain

You see....Yahweh hates it ...!!

You are confused you just dey jump from one accusation to another.

plappville: What did Paul say? let look: 8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

what exactly are you saying here? @bolded, are you saying that the early Christians actually celebrated birthdays & xmas? Remember you guys told us on this very thread that there is no evidence in the scriptures that the early Christians celebrated birthdays and xmas. From the post above, it appears you are telling us that the early Christians were party animals; celebrating birthdays non-stop, though Paul was not happy with them. please clarify your position. i don't agree with your interpretation, clarify so i know if i need to update the checklist of debunked items

plappville: Do you observe times or not? The Scripture did mention things that God hates. One of them you are victim of observe timed.

You have taken this your accusations to new level what do you mean by 'observed time'? Anyways this one was debunked even before you posted see item #9 on that your checklist

plappville: I will only present you the scripture, You have the choice, no one is forcing anything on you. Your chop chop seem very important than anything else ...

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[size=14pt]2Thessalonians 3:6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;[/size]

Zikkyy who did you recieve christmas traditon from? Christ, His apostles or the Catholic church elder/elders?

Your robotic approach to reading and interpretation will not take you anywhere. It is very clear from the above that the apostles concern or focus was against practices that will lead the Christian to sin or to un-Christ-like ways. If you keep interpreting to mean any man made tradition, then you have lost or totally disconnected from the message. Traditions are unavoidable because we live in an evolving world. You cannot tell me Africans don't have traditions not in the bible, and some am sure you have adopted. What is important is the implications or impact of these traditions on your Christian life. The bible is not a checklist and our everyday living is not based on a set of written rules (dos & don'ts). The Jews lived by written rules, and we see that they had to come up with their own rules (traditions of the elders) to fill gaps in the mosaic law. These rules are sometimes in conflict with the law.

To answer your question I can tell you my Xmas tradition is not in conflict with the commandments, it does not conflict with the traditions of the apostles.

truthislight: i am talking on a personal level since i also observed the event.

there is no banning of eating food.

The consideration is avoidance of distraction from the significance of the day to the individual and mankind.

Those usually involved in the preparation of food in an event usually get distracted from the most important part or thing in an event.

Remember what the reply of Jesus was to martha that was busy in the preparation of food instead of listening to Jesus:

"Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word "But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: "But very little thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:38-42)
................................

With this principle in mind it is important not to get any one distracted and miss the significance of the event.

However, if someone is able to get the "need full" or take time out without getting anybody distracted it is not bad. The priority is to apply the principles and give priority to spiritual things.

For me, personally, depending, i can take friends out later, but all this are not a hard and fast rule.

You should set priority first on spiritual things.

Thanks for the response, I wasn't expecting you to. You are a good man I appreciate your telling me It's a personal opinion and the attempt to provide explanation for the way the memorial is currently practiced. But can't you see that it is no longer as instructed by Christ and as practiced by the early church? It has been spiced up with the traditions of man.

plappville: I thought you were arguing the activities and decorations are not rooted from the pagan feast?

You have not been reading me. My argument is not that pagans did not use a particular item in their worship. My position is that these stuff you mentioned were not there when Xmas was instituted. It came centuries later. So its wrong of you to say these decorations were carried over from the saturnalia worshippers in an attempt to justify your claim that Xmas is pagan origin. For me there is nothing practiced today that resembles saturnalia worship. It therefore mean nothing has been carried over. The question of if later additions to Xmas (in some people attempt at spicy the celebration) gives it a pagan coloration is a different matter. I consider it irrelevant to your arguments that this is what makes the celebration of Christ birth a pagan activity. You have told us that if these decorations were taken out of Xmas, it would still be pagan. Am more interested in what makes the idea of celebrating a pagan activity. This is something you have been unable to show. You don't show that by reference to the decorations. I believe you understand what am saying.

BTW brother truthislight, i need help with a question here:

How come peeps are denied their 'right' to chop & drink whenever JWs hold their memorial of Christ death? the last and only time i attended your memorial i had expectations that food and wine will flow very well your people disappointed me there was no 'chop', there was no wine they were just passing the thing round, peeps were scared of taking a sip. That is not what i read in the bible o! Jesus said we should eat in remembrance of him, he did not say we should pass the plate round there was a bit of sermon and some singing (Jesus did not say you should sing in remembrance of him, did he?).

truthislight: @Zikky and all Chrismas celebrant

Take a lift from something similar like christmas that happened with the nation of Israel.

Exodus 32:3-10:
3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the
shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they
said, “These are your gods,[b] Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” 5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a
festival to the LORD.” 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and
presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat
down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in
revelry. 7 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt,
have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have
made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf.
They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it
and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who
brought you up out of Egypt.’ 9 “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I
will make you into a great nation.”


Chrismas is also similar to something that the Jews did in the past and the almighty kill them.

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." (1 Corinthians 10:19-20).

Keep sacrificing with the pegan to idols.

You are on your own still.

when the Jews moulded the calf as it was done in egypt they also changed the name and said that it is for the worship of Yahweh.

Chrismas is also a name changed ceremony.

abegi! this is item #9 on the JW Xmas criticism checklist We have seen this one before jor it's been debunked na! Try again

plappville: Zikkyy, see picture of the ancient yule log and the modern one designed as Christmas cake...chop chop (jk)

It's not looking bad but seriously, it's not an issue at this time. It is not what makes xmas a pagan activity.

plappville: And you think CHRISTMAS IS OF CHRIST? WHAT GUARANTEED YOU THAT GOD IS ALWAYS THERE? SCRIPTURE PLEASE!

I don't brag, even if it is allowed i don't..

plappville: Zikky, The early church did not celebrates XMAS(Christ birth) but the Lord's Supper. ( Acts 2:42-46; I Cor. 11:20-22)

There are lots of stuff the early xtians did not celebrate. for example, they did not feast when they buy a new donkey, they did not feast when they buy new dress or the latest weave-on they did not feast when the won America visa lottery sorry, i meant ticket to visit Rome my sister abeg leave matter jare. We know there is no evidence that suggests the early church celebrated Christ birth, that is not an issue. Did the bible say that doing what the early Christians did not do amounts to sinning against God?

plappville: I believe this thread has given enough scriptures that do not surpport celebrating Christ birth but His death... and not once a year, but every meeting through the Lord's Supper. (Acts 20:7) (I Cor. 10:16) (I Cor. 11:24, 25).

You've said it, it's your belief How do you show that murder is crime? is it by providing sections in the law that shows that polygamy is a crime? You don't prove Christ birth should not be celebrated by showing scriptural proof that we should celebrate Christ death

plappville: I believe this thread has given enough scriptures that do not surpport celebrating Christ birth but His death... and not once a year, but every meeting through the Lord's Supper. (Acts 20:7) (I Cor. 10:16) (I Cor. 11:24, 25).

@bolded, maybe you should be advising your JW brothers.

plappville: Christmas custom will remain pagan, You zikkyy can't change this. The Eastern star that is associated with the Nativity story, and its derivative decorative value over the holidays is an element of older cults which was refashioned to suit monotheistic needs.
Some of its greatest usage is attached to ancient mother goddess cults, including that of the goddess Asherah.
All churches houses in the WEST use this Star till date. Many other nature symbols, like snowflakes, the tree and poinsettias, which are also associated with the holidays were likewise used in older pagan cults. Do reseach bros.

There is no intention to change your perception, only desire to show your bias. What those decorations stand for is irrelevant as long as they are not what make xmas pagan. Take the case of commemorating the death of Christ for example, atleast you agree this one is in the scriptures. It is being celebrated in different ways by different people, now JWs complain that there is pagan element. i.e. even the name easter is pagan, there is the issue of easter egg, in some cases the commemoration of Christ death is associated with o.rgies, crime e.t.c. will all this make the commemoration of Christ death a pagan activity? tell me. so you understand when i say the issue of decorations have been debunked as irrelevant . It's a totally different issue.

plappville: There is no party on birthday of Christ in the Bible, Christ did not forget anything, He gave us enough of what He wants us to do until He returns.

@bolded, i don't find anywhere in the bible where Christ stated that commemorating his death is the only thing he want us to do in remembrance of him.

plappville: History has proven Dec 25 that is tagged as Christ date of birth, was the birthday of Mithra, the god of light/Sun.
It also proved that it was the Roman that re-assigned the meaning to the "birthday of Jesus. From Sun to Son. What have you to debunk?

December 25th has been debunked as irrelevant to proving the celebration of Christ's birth is pagan I asked you people before, if the date of xmas was moved to May 29, will that make xmas a Christian practice? if your answer is No, then the issue of December 25th is not relevant. Why would you waste your time proving to a sango worshiper that he is pagan because he eat food dedicated to sango? He is pagan because he worships sango, simple. The best you can achieve with this line of criticism is to show that xmas is pagan only if it is celebrated on December 25. You need to do away with that checklist so you can focus on showing us how the very idea of celebrating Christ becomes a pagan activity

plappville: I did not put fort my words but that of the scripture. It just shows it's against men tradition, Christmas is a tradition that is been handed down by a human being like you and me, It was not and will never be supported by the Scripture. now tell me, is this not a tradition of man? or do you have ur own definition of "men traditon"?

You had every opportunity to nail this argument one time. instead of going about shouting "traditions of men", all you ever needed to do was show how this practice was elevated above God's commandment, or how the practice of celebrating Christ birth will stop a christian from following the commandments of God. It's a very simple matter, really quoting verses and spicing it with your own bias interpretations is not a good approach.

plappville: It shows you did not see when i adressed this. I SAID if you claim God used the birthday as a means for Joseph then you are equally saying He uses Herod's birthday for John the Baptise what was positive in the Herod's account? God is not a part in birthday celebration, He has always rescue His children in His own ways, do not validate birthday with Joseph"s freedom.
Birthday or not, God will always react when it Pleases Him. Maybe you should also say that the Butler pleases God thats why He was released and promoted unlike the Baker that was hated and killed! You should know that Joseph faithfully served Pharoah and for this He got rewarded by God (in keeping with 1 Peter 2:18)

I saw where you made an attempt at addressing my post the reason i said you did not come back with anything serious. You were the one that stated that there were only two records of birthday celebrations in the bible and both instances has to do with negative outcome. All i have done is to show your bias and dishonesty for ignoring a positive outcome associated with the pharaoh's birthday. Your interpretation was just to achieve your purpose and nothing more. The truth is that there would have been no record of pharaoh's birthday if Joseph had not been sold by his brothers, and there would have been no record of Herod's birthday if John died from riot or stabbed on the streets of Jerusalem. To say that both records was to show that birthday celebration is pagan is very false. That reasoning remain DEBUNKED! by Zikkyy