₦airaland Forum

plappville: I did not put fort my words but that of the scripture. It just shows it's against men tradition, Christmas is a tradition that is been handed down by a human being like you and me, It was not and will never be supported by the Scripture. now tell me, is this not a tradition of man? or do you have ur own definition of "men traditon"?

Let me for the purpose of understanding your post agree that it is the xmas is the tradition of men. Okay, so what? if it is the traditions of men nko? you are not telling me anything here. The reason i said your points are ripped off the JW's checklist The argument of 'traditions of men' have already been debunked by zikkyy i have shown that Jesus did not condemn the tradition of washing hands before eating as pagan, so who are you to condemn every tradition of men as pagan practices? What was Jesus concern about tradition? Read again Jesus response to the pharisee in Mathew 15:

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man".

"......But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..."

The pharisee teaches washing of hands before eating as a commandment and a sin if you don't do it. They hold these traditions above God's commandment. Jesus had issues with the teachings (the bolded) but did not condemn the tradition of washing hands itself.

In the same manner, i have shown that my hanging a harmless tree in my sitting room is not what defiles me, but the intentions of my heart is what God looks at. But i don't expect you to see this because just like the pharisee before you, you have adopted a very narrow and legalistic approach to matters of external worship and observance of commandments.

plappville: The fruits of Christmas are terrible. A season that leads the entire year in adultery, loneliness, jealousy, drunkenness and drunk driving,
family arguments and accumulation of debt that often lasts until march or may. How long shall you continue to adopt a plain lie?

Xmas or no xmas the activities above will happen.

plappville: Now that you have read the PLAIN TRUTH about the true "origin of Christmas", what will you do?

What truth? Your truth or God’s truth? All you have done is show your version of the truth. You know some of us read deep and are quite difficult to confuse. Your shallow attempt at showing Christmas as a pagan practice is not convincing. There are areas where you showed that you lacked proper understanding of the argument you are putting forward. You will need to do better to convince me. You guys approach gives the impression you are arguing from a checklist. Maybe “the JW’s guide to criticizing xmas” version 1.0 When an item on your checklist is debunked, you move on the next item on the list without any serious attempt at proving your point. Maybe I should provide a summary of the anti-xmas arguments (those I can remember) and show how you guys failed.

1. Only pagans celebrated their birthdays in the bible: This is probably the only point you’ve made that made some sense. Why? Because it was lifted off the bible as it is; it was not spiced with your bias. My comment on this: Knowing that the idea of somebody acknowledging his birthday was not an issue here, I agreed that the bible only recorded instances of pagan kings celebrating their birthday. But is this enough evidence to prove that celebration of birthdays is pagan? I think it’s quite weak. I would rather adopt an approach that shows that we dishonor God by a particular activity. Do we sin by celebrating? I don’t find any evidence to support this. Humans naturally like to feast; I mean we celebrate practically everything. When you give birth, you thank God and feast; when you get a promotion in the office or win a business contract, you thank God and feast; you buy a new car, you feast; somebody dies, you feast; you buy a new shoe, make up accessories and new dress, you feast your friends; some peeps even feast when they buy a new iphone or pad self So how do we know which feast is a sin from those that is acceptable to God? That’s the approach I expect from you.

2. Birthdays in the bible were associated with negative things: DEBUNKED! By Zikkyy I showed that birthday was also associated with positive activities by reference to Joseph. You did not come back with anything serious

3. If celebrating his birth was relevant Jesus would have mentioned it: DEBUNKED! By Zikkyy If it was a sin Jesus would also not have forgotten to mention it. When you read my counter argument, all you guys do is move on to the next item on the JW’s checklist. You people take the bible as a checklist that contains every action a man will take his lifetime, and we know that is not true. The bible is a guide and should be used as one.

4. Bible commanded against traditions of men: DEBUNKED! By Zikkyy that statement is very false! What Christ was against was a tradition that is elevated above the commandment of God. Christ did not condemn the tradition of washing hands before taking meal; he countered the argument of the Pharisee by reference to another tradition that has been elevated above the commandment of honoring your parents. This was to show their hypocrisy. Some traditions are good and some are bad. The tradition that the Apostles were against are those that will lead you away from Christ, and that is the angle of argument that will make sense to me. But as expected you guys move on to the next item when shown that your argument makes no sense.

5. Xmas has pagan origin: DEBUNKED! By Zikkyy we have shown that it was Christians that instituted xmas. Were the saturnalia worshippers celebrating xmas prior to the time the church made it a feast? The answer is NO. So what made xmas a pagan origin? With nothing to say, you move on the next item on your list

6. Some pagan activities were carried along in the celebration of xmas: DEBUNKED! By Zikkyy I showed you how xmas is practice in church today (based on my understanding anyway), to show that nothing was carried over. Your response was that some decorations were carried over. List the decorations, you fired blank. It was like taking a shot at me with an empty water pistol. I can think of one or two on your behalf. I believe you were referring to the xmas tree and santa. I showed clearly that xmas tree and santa were never part of saturnalia worship and did not feature in xmas activities until centuries later (I think). As expected you move on the next item on the JW’s list. This time irrelevant items. Irrelevant on the ground that they do not show celebration of Christ birth as pagan.

The Irrelevant arguments

7. 25 December is a pagan date: DEBUNKED! By Zikkyy I honestly don’t see the relevance of this line of argument. It’s like somebody supporting the argument that murder is a crime by saying using a knife to commit murder is a crime. What about using a gun? Or hanging the person? To argue that murder is a crime, you go back to the law or relevant moral or ethical codes. Same for 25 December. We asked if celebrating xmas on June 29 or October 1st is not a pagan? As expected you guys will quietly move on to the next item on your JW criticism list.

8. Xmas tree is pagan origin: DEBUNKED! By Zikkyy we have shown that God made everything for our use. God’s people would have use the xmas tree as firewood to cook or make items for domestic use (chair & table) in the past. Will that make these items pagan? I still don’t see how putting a tree (that God created) in my sitting room or garden becomes a sin. It’s only a sin if I worship it. I asked that you guys show me the pagan form of worship that the xmas tree was used for that we are practicing today. Instead you guys move on to the next item on the list

When all else fails, bully the ‘victim’ to submission

9. You come back and call the person a liar. You create a world of lies, o.rgies, satan worship and put him in the middle. You tell him that he is pagan and he should just quietly accept that fact and make effort to change from his pagan ways. When the person shows that there is nothing pagan about his ways and that the impression you have of him is all false, what do you guys do? Well according to the list, you start the process all over again Probably believing the person will yield after continuous attack

If I remember other arguments I will add. So you see you have not been able to prove anything

plappville: So wetin make you dey leave us na? abi someone don vex you here,? i doubt, that can`t happen here.

Why I go vex? Am busy. Will not be available till New year. If una still dey here that time I fit contribute if need be.

plappville: And you have agreed that Christmas is not Gods command.

Sorry, I said I will not be posting here again, but let me make a quick clarification so you don't go away with the wrong impression. I agreed you will not find Xmas in the bible, you will not find a command in the bible that says celebrate Xmas. That's my view.

Whether God spoke to the pope the day before Xmas was announced i don't know. Aftetall our pastors to date still claim that they talk to God on a daily basis. I am not one to condemn anybody or say It's not possible cos I no dey there. thank you..

plappville: Whatever the reason, do they have to curse a day God brought them to this world? something you should start taking a deep look at.
King Solomon was inspired to write:

Ecclesiastes 5:15-16 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his laboiur, which he may carry away in his hand. [16] And this also is a sore evil, that in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind?

Does this sound like a day to look forward to? NO . The Scripture is still telling that the day this verse describes is better than the day of one’s birth.

The above talks about life in general and not birth. He is saying your hustling and time spent in front of the mirror with your make-up kit are all in vain.

ijawkid: The individuals passing the kids through fire are the heathens...............same goes for individuals who use trees in religiuos festivals which the xmas starters adopted......if you haven't gotten this point I have to keep SMH!!!!!..............the use of the xmas tree didn't fall from heaven,,,it had a start...what prompted the start and its usage in religious festivals is what we are considering...........

This is the last comment I will make on this particular issue. The individuals passing the kids are pagans agreed. But it does not make kids pagan items. Replace kids with trees to understand what am saying.

What the various societies use a God created item for is of no relevance to me or you. What matters to God is that you use it for an activity that is acceptable to him. That should be your concern. If you spend time looking at what people use things of nature for you are likely to consider the possibility of migrating to planet Mars.

plappville: That's why i have told you several times that the choice is ours. God does not force anyone to do things.
As your mind is fixed on Xmas, You will rarely find anything wrong with it.

It applies to you as well. It's your choice not to.

ijawkid: Its not my personal opinion its what it is...........Jesus can't be happy with you for celebrating xmas....its a myth and a lie..........Jesus wasn't born on xmas day and xmas had its origin from pagan celebrations.......have you not been listenening??........Jesus and his Father can't be glossed with LIE's and paganism........go and read the catholic encyclopedia and find out the truth.....

You are not a serious man. Is it in the Catholic encyclopedia I will find that Jesus is not happy. To date Jesus has not told me he is not happy. Where is the lie? You received a call from Jesus and he told you he is not happy with zikkyy? You have claimed Jesus for yourself and probably believe you have sole access. In my book that on its own is wrong.

ijawkid: I didn't create a reason for you,I just told you what is real..........now you are asking questions which plapville had discussed at the beginning of this post.......go to the encyclopedia and read about yuletide,saturlania........etc........I'm done moving in circles with you..........go and trace your celebration from the fathers of it......because I'm so sure you won't see it in the bible or from servants of God....oya go do research......if you've chosen to dodge reality na you sabi..........

You have told me what is real in the world you have created for me. It is not real in my world. I find it difficult reconciling what you accuse me of doing with what I actually do.

Now you again avoid questions. You accused me of carrying over saturnalia activities, I can't find evidence that they had Santa Claus, I can't evidence that they used Xmas tree for saturnalia worship. Mr ijawkid, what exactly did I carry over that is pagan? Tell me. Don't go hiding behind funny excuses.

plappville: Please sir, repost that ur positive outcome, i may not see it, pardon.

I referred you to same birthday by pharaoh, yes a life was lost, but at that same party, a life wad restored. And it was the life that was restored/saved that got Joseph out of jail. Joseph went on to become a great man. God used that birthday to realise his plans for lsrael.

plappville: You have to let go all unGodly activities.

This is where I have issues with you. You are yet to show me why you consider my feasting/special meal becomes ungodly. If I used a plant used by pagans at some point for a different purpose I don't see how that becomes ungodly. We don't even know if God's people used that same plant at some time in their history. Besides a larger variety of plants serve the purpose today. More than what the pagan used.

plappville: Zikkyy, the Church still keep the trees and other Christmas decorations, caros are used, etc...You cannot change the uniformity of this old custom.

The only thing they didn't continue in is the killing of thier infants children. The decoration and disguise remains.

So the activities we retained are just a couple of decorations? Probably natural items created God for our use. That said kindly confirm if these items or decorations were carried over from saturnalia worship. Thanks.

plappville: The Scripture presented God servants cursing thier date of birth. Are you saying they didn't?
I am not telling you to curse urs, just showing that the day a man is born is of no importance.
As Christians, where we are going is far better than where we are now.

There will be a reason for anybody cursing the day he was. Go back and read that bible verse carefully, am sure it wad a sad man cursing the day he was born. Such curses are rare and not done for fun. It is not something to follow.

plappville: Many who are doing christmas are doing it because they think that following the crowd is easy. Not because they want to follow Gods law.

I agree many are doing Xmas without asking questions. But how many of the global celebrants are true Christians, I don't know. I don't like speaking for others, (the reason I have used myself for the purpose of this discussion) but I can tell you I won't be supporting Xmas celebration if I find something wrong with the idea of celebrating Christ. It's possible some activities are uncalled for, but I see nothing wrong in the idea and that is what I practice.

plappville: Its like in Benin, there is a feast they call "Igwe" they do this yearly, imagin a pastor will just wake up and tell them, enough is enough
I have come to present to u my God, he is a living God urs is a dead one, and the people reply ok we would like to accept ur God but we can't let go our Igwe feastival.
The pastor will now tell them, ok you can continue to do ur "igwe" but this time to the new God, we will change the name to "loveforgodfeast", the people are completely happy because thier igwe is not taken away from them. They continue to celebrate thier usual "Igwe", the change of name is nothing to them.

You don't know what you are talking about. How do you become a Christian and keep the activities associated with festival. The festival requires sacrifice. Are you going to church with the oracle, are you going to sacrifice goat on the pulpit? And sprinkle the blood round the church building? That is very unlike Xmas celebration in church. From my understanding you go to and listen to sermon you would ordinarily listen to if there were to be no Xmas and pray the way you would have prayed if there were to be no Xmas. The only difference would be the Xmas feelings, people are happier and more loving towards their neighbor, a feeling they ordinarily should display of there was nothing like Xmas. But ofcourse most Christians are not truly Christians. So that's a plus for Xmas.

Most activities takes place outside the church. Am yet to receive confirmation from ijawkid if Santa & Xmas tree were inherited from the saturnalia worshippers.

plappville: If the Jews yearly marked thier bible and the bible refuses to tell us, then there must be something wrong.

We don't know if they partied. What am saying is that you cannot know how old you are if are not counting. for example, a Jew will on his 40th birthday say to himself "yes am 40 today" and do the same for other years. We know they acknowledge their birthday cos they know their age. Party is a different thing. I don't know. Like I said the issue then Will be if feasting inviting friends and well wishers is pagan. Everybody acknowledges their birthday including Jews.

plappville: Zikkyy, i have not told you that the bible said birthday parting is a sin or not, what we have presented to you from the scripture shows the negetive outcome of this occasion.

...and I showed you the positive outcome which cancels your negative outcome. Why do you keep ignoring that one? Is it because it nullifies your argument?

ijawkid: .............the only reason why you have a tree in your house alongside a Father xmas moulding or painting by december is because of xmas and you have learnt so far how it came about......can't you for once on this thread see the truth??.............

You create a reason for my actions so you can tell me you version of the truth. I asked you earlier, please tell me if the saturnalia worshippers I copied Xmas had Santa Claus and used Xmas tree on their saturnalia worship? You can't come here accusing me of copying saturnalia way of worship and yet refuse to confirm if the activities you accused me of copying are actually saturnalia activities. Please confirm if Xmas tree and Santa are saturnalia activities.

ijawkid: ........God is definitly angry when you have an xmas tree that was excerpted from pagan ways.....don't you get it??..............

Who told you God is angry? This again is your personal opinion. I can confirm to you that God is truly happy with me.

ijawkid: Kids are from God...but the baal worshippers passed them through the fire in worship of baal......servants of God adopted and did same and faced Jahs wrath.......same goes for your lovely pagan xmas tree.....

Kids are from God, does passing them through fire make the kids pagan? If not, Xmas tree cannot be pagan because pagans used it sometime back knowing Xmas tree is also from God.

ijawkid: You should have asked yourself what is the significance of the xmas tree..........ask yourself that question and do some research.........the xmas tree is not just a flower decoration,it symbolizes something.....do research bro.....

You guys are so desperate you have lost all sense of reasoning. The first thing you ask yourself is what the maker of an item symbolizes with it. To the Almighty, what does the plant represent? This is what is important. Did God say that we should not put the Xmas tree in the house? The significance of any item varies with the user. In Nigeria cow is suya, in India it is something else. Please don't come to me with the significance of an item again. I can tell you its significance to me but you are not interested in that. What is interest to you is the significance to some people 500 years ago. Whatever it was applies to those peeps, I use that same item for a different purpose now. There is freedom to use what God has created except where God himself places a restriction, he had the sole authority to do that. If you must criticize the Xmas tree, tell us how its use contravenes the law to love God & neighbor.

ijawkid: ........you guys claim the reason for the season is Jesus,but na lie....the reason for the season is for paganism to surface and rule..........
....

Lol! you are a clown. My reason for doing what I do is not acceptable. You had to come up with a reason on my behalf and force me to accept it. That way you are able to call me an idol worshipper smh...

ijawkid: I am only telling you that the reason why you have that xmas tree hanging in your house is because of the pagans you copied my bro.....haven't you still understood this simple truth.....would have you have had any dealing with decorated trees in your house if not for xmas.

I bet this whole Xmas thing was the result of boredom. To condemn something, all you needed to do was create an issue then criticize it. You are now the one telling me the reason I do what I do. My reason is not acceptable because it will not provide room for you to criticize.

ijawkid: Do you use the xmas tree other times apart from the xmas celebration??........do you hang the xmas tree as decoration through out the year in your house or only during xmas season??......I want to really show you that you are following the script of pagans which the use of the xmas tree was gotten from..........

So your issue is not that I use the Xmas tree but how I use it abi? So if I hang Xmas tree in June, it is not paganism abi? smh..

Secondly, you have not told me how I worship with the Xmas tree. You are only saying I hang Xmas tree in my house during Xmas.

Thirdly, the pagans you claimed I copied Xmas from (saturnalia worshippers), did they use Xmas tree in their saturnalia worship?

Four, do you know how an Xmas tree would look like in dry season?

ijawkid: Nope.....customs of pagans is the bane here......passing kids through fire was a pagan practice.............while trees were created by God,pagans using it for there form of worship outside Gods commandments and later adopted by servants of His is what is wrong...........God created sex,egbo,marijuana etc..........but God himself being our creator has the authority to tell us how we should go about the use of his products.........

Why on earth do you think God would tell the isrealites not to copy the ways of worship of the pagans??why zikky??......is it not God who also created the pagans??..........

You have asked these questions for too long and answers have been given..............

You talking but not saying anything. I ask you again, was the kids the issue or was it what they used the kids for? God will not be angry if I have an Xmas tree at home. He made and I can put it anywhere I like in my house just like any other plant. Don't you know our native/witch doctors use almost all the herbs/plants available for their medicine including the one you use to cook that spicy vegetable soup you love. Can you then say, its pagan and we should do away with the vegetables?

ijawkid: How you try to compare this with the use of xmas tree makes me smh for you zikky..........

I believe with my response to the issue of passing kids through fire, you now have a better understanding of the message I was passing across.

ijawkid: But why u dey ask the same question over and over again??.......zikky no make us fight gidigbo o.......

Sorry, na grammar error. You have listed what I use but you have not told me how I use it. That was my question. I would like to know how I worship with the Xmas tree, giving of gifts e.t.c

ijawkid: Baal worshippers were passing there kids through fire......how do you think Yahweh felt when ahaz and the wicked kings of isreal practiced exactly the same customs as did the baal worshippers who passed there kids through fire..??...I believe Yahweh smiled and was happy with them??right??......

You failed to see my point that's why you are making unnecessary posts. God was angry that Baal worshippers were passing their kids through fire abi? Did God say the Jews should not have kids because the pagans have kids or passed theirs through fire? NO! So the issue was not with the material used but how it was used. Do Jews take their kids to temple for one form of dedication or another? God made everything for use. He did not say don't make use of the plant we call the Christmas tree.

ijawkid: ....... The adoption of pagan ways is what has led to the xmas tree you're using.........

How am I using the Xmas tree that makes it offensive to God?

ijawkid: Bulls,sheep,turtle doves etc were animals used for sacrifice by the command of Yahweh........blood was needed for cleansing........God gave specific "commands" to the isrealites on how to carry out there sacrifices.............while the baal worshippers also used animals in there sacrifices,God gave his servants specifics so that the isrealites never snatched baal's pattern of worship or offering sacrifices....abraham and faithful patriarchs of old have always offered burnt offerings to Yahweh even before the priesthood came into order and also before pagans started using animals for sacrifice...........besides blood was a requirement for sacrifices to take place.......the isrealites never stole or copied baals form of worship or observances........but you are doing the opposite.........

Can you please tell me what I use to worship God today or during Xmas that is copied for pagan worshippers and not allowed in Christianity?

truthislight: the bible says that: "he that does not work neither let him eat"

Hahaha you don't need to hustle na, are you guys not cursing the day you were born. How can you be hustling in Satan's world wait till you get to God's kingdom.

truthislight: yes i do that once in a while, God's servants are a happy people.

Lol! How can someone that spend his day cursing the day he was born be happy? So after cursing all morning & afternoon, you visit the bar in the evening to rejoice

Rich4god: All those things you mentioned above, are more of decoration or are they used for worship during chritmas. If you go to banks and other institution, you will see christmas tree/lights etc decorated within/inside their premises. They equally present gifts to their staff. Santa clause are usualy seen with children at amusement parks fun filled areas. Except if you want to conclude that any place christmass tree is seen, then that place is a place of pagan worship.
@Bolded... I still didnt see any pagan practice that you are talking about. Did you see any christian going to any shrine to worship any idol or have you by chance heard any christian singing and shouting "all hail sango ota" on christmass day. Or are you trying to say that because sango ota worshippers wore cloths to their shrine to worship sango ota, so we christian shouldnt wear cloth to worship God.

I think people just want to talk for the fun of it. Christians and pagans live in the same world. God made everything for our use. It is not the use of materials that makes one pagan, it is how you use it. I.e is it used to worship Satan? is it used in a manner God dislikes? God made the trees for our use, should we now destroy or remove every trace of the Christmas tree from the planet because pagans used it? While Jews were giving bulls as burnt offerings to God, pagans were burning their bulls to Baal. Who owns the material for sacrifice, Jews or pagans?