₦airaland Forum

korrej: Ok does it mean if he had 'watch and pray' it wouldnt have been him to betray christ probably another disciple or someone outside the disciple box?

Am sure there were plenty of peeps with similar trait at the time. It could have been anybody.

Joagbaje: God didn't create judas for such assignment. It was prophesied that an insider will be used of Satan to betray him. But God didn't stamp judas name on it. He had a choice. He had greed , he gave room to it. Satan came for him and he fell.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation. . .

It's be prophesied that some people will end up in lake of fire. But you see God didn't stamp anyone's name there. We have choices . And many are exercising that choice terribly even now on Nairaland..

I have to agree with Joagbaje on this one. Judas 'chose' his destiny

frosbel: Of course, those pentecostal churches are no different, they are the daughters of that harlot catholic church.

Frosbel, na wa for you o! everybody don dey evil for your eye. Am begining to suspect you worship in a mosque

frosbel: Why should I , You and Enigma are brothers without knowing it, both catholics with a different twist to the story albeit on the same level with the propagation of falsehoods that cannot stand up to the test of scripture.

You don craze

Why this fight over who compiled the bible? ehn?

Brother Enigma, which time you do sex change?

Donmeca: Hi, I know that tithe is 10% of one's earnings. For a business person, tithing implies taking one part out of ten of your profit (not revenue). This implies that the businessman takes out the cost of his goods or services, takes out his his transportation and office rent. He then proceeds to pay 10% of the remainder to the God as tithe.

This is how you compute your tithe is your pastor aware of this your pastor been denied his full entitlement God instructed the Israelite to tithe 10% of the gross farm produce. even if the farmland was leased, you cannot set aside some produce to cover lease cost, cost of hiring farm laborer, cost of purchasing donkey (transportation) e.t.c when computing 10% of the farm produce.

denitro: I access myself in terms of worth at the beginning of the month
and then at the end of the month re-access myself and then pay 10% of my increase thankfully.

na wa o! another tithe evader peeps just dey bring creativity into tithe computation! am aware our economy is in a bad state, but never knew it was this bad o! so what happens if your worth decrease at the end of the month? you ask God for refund?

petres_007: Abi na... make I no go talk say dem go share chicken & chips na. . . dat day, the hall go just full enter main road. . . you go think say na bible everybody find come true, true

Before nko when you dey hold event for fast-food joint.

petres_007: . . probably just something to nibble.

Sound like cabin biscuit to me. You no serious ooh

Okay just seeing the venue now. Some peeps fit show if you have item 7 on the agenda. e no easy

Forget it. Don't expect to see a pro-tither at the event. What will they be doing there? Probably be spending their Saturday sourcing their tithe for Sunday. Consider holding a press briefing instead.

Purist: Interesting examples you have there. Anyways, none of you has yet been able to demonstrate the freewill offered by a God who condemns you if you don't serve him. The "freewill" to choose otherwise? lol. The only "choice" I see here is the same offered by the tyrannical Head of State who allows his people freedom of speech, but then goes ahead to lock them up when they say something he doesn't like. The people have a "choice" too, apparently. If you want to roll with the president, you must be his kind of guy (say only what he wants to hear). After all, he's the boss.

If that's your definition of freewill, then I accept: God gave us "freewill" indeed.

Seriously now. i want to believe that your definition of freewill (free-choice) is that peeps can do anything (good or bad) and still expect a pat on the back. freewill does not imply that all actions must yield favorable results. if you want to achieve a desired outcome for every choice/act, you will need to have total control (you have to be God to achieve that).

Being locked up for making a 'choice' is just the outcome of that choice, it is not a lack of choice. it is an outcome the person cannot control. In the case of the tyrannical Head of State, one thing is sure; the outcome of making a particular choice will vary from person to another. for e.g. for any unfavorable comment, the punishment dished out (or delivery method) will not be the same for the man on the street, a powerful cabinet member or societal person (or even a family member). It's possible for some peeps to escape punishment for making the same comment. It has to do with the amount of control/influence each person can exercise; it has nothing to do with choice.

Purist: The only "choice" I see here is the same offered by the tyrannical Head of State who allows his people freedom of speech, but then goes ahead to lock them up when they say something he doesn't like. The people have a "choice" too, apparently. If you want to roll with the president, you must be his kind of guy (say only what he wants to hear). After all, he's the boss.

Lol! I don't see any similarities with my example sha, but no wahala. What about the case of a father telling his son he has to live right to stay under his roof. I mean telling the son to consider moving out if he must live a life of crime. Do you think that's an absence of choice for the son? afterall the father owns the house. So what God is telling you is that you have to move 'downtown' to live those guys that have been influencing your life (am thinking satan and his crew ). He don't want you in the house so other members of the household don't end up like you So you have a choice; live in the father's house or move downtown so you can 'chill' with your crew.

Purist: Perhaps I should have clarified my stance earlier on. My main grouse with the freewill concept is its incompatibility with the concept of predestination.

It all depend on your interpretation of predestination.

Purist: But when you begin to claim that it is God that gave this freewill (or you attempt to give the concept a religious feel), then that goes against the nature and notion of the monotheistic gods, because with them, "choice/freewill" is simply a farce (refer to Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 9:17, etc). Serve me or burn forever! Do my will or perish! -- dictator style; that's how they role.

Freewill (free-choice) does not imply control over 'every' outcome. the fact that there are more than one outcome indicates existence of choice; otherwise the only outcome would be for everybody to do God's will (that's the way i see it). or maybe i still don't understand what you are saying here

Purist: ......because with them, "choice/freewill" is simply a farce (refer to Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 9:17, etc). S[b]erve me or burn forever! Do my will or perish! -- dictator style[/b]; that's how they role.

aw com'on if God says he is not happy hanging out with armed robbers, child rapist, fraudsters e.t.c and decides to send them to the other direction (dissociate himself), what's wrong with that. you might see that as punishment (not being able to hang out with the Almighty ), but you have only yourself to blame. If you want to roll with God, you must be his kind of guy afterall he is the boss

Purist: You fail to get the gist. Look at it this way:

What exactly is freewill (free-choice)? I think we see free-will (free-choice) from a different perspective; reading your post, i'll assume you see free-will as the ability to control the outcome of your decisions. You can only control what's within your power to control, e.g. you cannot chose to live & exceed Methuselah's record (atleast for now). But that's is not say you have no control over your actions.

Purist: You are told that you have freedom of speech (freewill) and you decide to exercise this freedom (choice) by voicing out your displeasure, but then you're instantly arrested and locked up for choosing to exercise your right, would you still be able to say that you really have that freedom of speech (freewill) despite that seeming choice you had? Certainly not.

The lack of freedom of speech does not imply lack of choice. Are you saying the existence of National constitution/law takes away the freedom of choice? if the law says stealing or fraud (419/yahoo) will land you in prison, it is not taking away your ability to choose. That's why the government went ahead and built prisons; for those that will make that choice. You have to be in charge (or be an island independent of God/nature/societal rules men set for themselves e.t.c) to control every outcome.

Purist: And that's the point. The idea that people will be punished for exercising their freewill negates the very idea of freewill in the first place. In other words, I am only allowed to do what God wants me to do, else I face the punishment --- that certainly does not sound like freewill to me.

No, those are rules/commandments/guidance. You have a choice to be in God's good book or he send you packing. And it because he is in charge, he runs things. Your company can say visiting NL during working hours will earn you a two week suspension from work, that is not to say you cannot visit NL during working hours.

mkmyers45: He creates the hardware (body) and clearly makes it clear that he wants the programme to be like him in all entirety no? What does he do then he makes a very good software to model exactly what he wants it to be like...him giving the software the [size=14pt]ability[/size] to go against and destroy itself means the nature of such acts must be embedded or fully known by the programmer..you can't obviously code what you don't know or what does not exist,

That's the word you are having issues with right there (bolded in red) ability does not negate free-will (free-choice).

mkmyers45: you can't obviously code what you don't know or what does not exist,

True, but i don't see how this takes way free-will(free-choice). Choices within the limitations of the program (if any) is still choices, especially if the programmer is not the one hitting the 'enter' button

Have observed that when people say there is nothing like freewill (or is it free-choice) in the bible, they are actually telling you that freewill (free-choice)does exist. now compare the comment below:

mazaje: . . .There is no where in the bible where it says god has given man any free will to chose to obey him or not. .Nothing like that appears in the bible,.....

with this one:

mazaje: The last time i checked in some parts those that did not believe in him or chose to serve him were ordered to be killed. . .

Same author, same post. LOL

Mr_Anony: Now God created human beings giving them free-choice knowing that by giving them free-choice, the very nature of free-choice means that man can possibly do evil. . .but then without free-choice, man cannot possibly be good either.

Like

truthislight: whose God Anoint who?

Were you there when the anointing took place?

By their fruit we shall know them?

MOG

I agree with you on this one. Oga Goshen, oya defend ya self. were you there when the anointing took place

truthislight: Since you cant say where it is the bible say that :

1. We should pay for someone to pray for us.
5. We should Pay money befor we can join a special favoured group that will enjoy a special MOG prayers.

You don't find this in the OP. The G.O saying the partners will be prayed for does not imply other members of the congregation don't receive (special) prayers, and it is not saying every member of congregation don't receive regular/routine prayers If you pray for your family on a daily basis does not mean your partner(for e.g.) will not receive a special prayer when he/she is going on a trip (especially if the trip requires flying with any of the local airlines ). Beneficiaries of gifts tend to offer that special prayer for the person presenting the gift, can you say it's unbiblical?

truthislight: Since you cant say where it is the bible say that :

2. We should pay money befor we can pray.
3. We should pay money befor we should pray daily.
4. We should pay money befor we can pray for others

this is not from the OP. The prayers for the G.O is part of the package, you don't pay to pray. the G.O is not saying this.

truthislight: 6. We should pay money befor we can enter into a covanant with christ.

You need to read the OP all over. It was always about the G.O, it has nothing to do with entering a covenant with Christ. see extract below:

musKeeto: Ten years ago, I called for people who will be my covenant partners; and several people volunteered. I said it would be for ten years,

musKeeto: When I asked God, He said there will be a new set and it will not be for ten years. He said “because those people were in covenant with you for ten years, I had no choice but to keep them alive for ten years”

musKeeto: I thank God for all my partners and I say, thank you for the past ten years.

musKeeto: And I promise you, my God who had been faithful to me all these years will be faithful to my partners also in Jesus’ name. He made a promise, He said all those who are lifting up my hands, He said as I rise, they will rise. So you will rise with me in Jesus’ name.

truthislight: 7. We should pay money befor we can receive favour.

Can't really say i read this in the OP, but the G.O statement appears to suggest this. I agree with you that it is unbiblical, but the G.O is not saying volunteering for the covenant partnership project is the sole means or even the better means for receiving favor. All he said was that the last batch of volunteers were favored.

truthislight: It then means that what the MOG/GO here is asking for is not base on the bible and that his teaching here is not bible base.

You might be correct. The G.O is not saying you should give because the bible says so; he is not saying you are robbing God if you don't become a covenant partner

truthislight: If he is not obeying christ voice he cannot be doing christ work and his power if any is not FROM God.

I don't know bout this, but it's a possibility.

truthislight: That your views on this issues are not base on the bible being the manual of christians.

Correct. My views are based on the OP, and it is the OP i was responding to. The issue to me is if the G.O was trying to milk the congregation. if he was, there was no attempt to manipulate the scriptures to achieve this.He simply relied on his influence. He was quite honest (that's if we exclude the 'i asked God' and 'he told me' bit). can't comment on that part cos i no dey there.

truthislight: But it is the MOG mode of skinning his followers to enrich himself.

LOL my brother this is a possibility, but i don't have enough evidence to conclude it was an attempt to enrich himself.

truthislight: If the people knew there left from there right will they follow him?

So, since they have followed him he is justified to defraud them if they accept.

You need to read my posts all over to understand my position, so you don't make false accusations. to answer your question; if they knew their left from their right and still agrees to follow him, do you blame the G.O?

truthislight: if it is not biblical what right do you have to sanction it?

I don't understand you ooh! what has biblical got to do with fund raising. Are you saying there are biblical guidelines/procedures for raising fund? and the guideline is cast in stone?

truthislight: Show us the passages that the bible said people should partner to enter God's kingdom/prosperity/miracles befor you come here to support that fraud.

I honestly don't know where this is from. Is this from the OP?

truthislight: If you dont show a bible passage to support that that offer is biblical it means you are a fraud also.

Zikky a fraud? LOL

truthislight: If the people knew there left from there right will they follow him?

So, since they have followed him he is justified to defraud them if they accept.

What exactly is the fraud? is it because the G.O requested for support? is it the part where he categorized the volunteer partners so the very poor can participate? is it the part where he offered to pray for the volunteers (on a daily basis)? or is it the part where he claimed to have communicated with God and God told him to....? please clarify.

musKeeto: Classic. Now he accuses me of 'planning a bashing'...

I guess that came out wrong sorry my brother, no vex.

musKeeto: I'm finding it difficult to figure out what side Zikky's on...

i'll say am of the view the G.O's comment does not justify the bashing you planed.

plaetton: Ok. fine.
Can you speculate as to how much money Rccg generates every week from its member worldwide from tithes , offerings, seed sowing etc?

Now how much do you think that they catholic church generates worldwide from its members?

bros, this is heavy stuff, you need a 'warrant' from EFCC Aso rock to assess such info.

plaetton: Compare and contrast.

e be like you be lecturer

plaetton: Ok. fine.
So what exactly does rccg do with its money?

Honestly, i don't know. maybe they are attempting to take over the world, that's what they do every night sunday

plaetton: Pls, did they specifically say what they were raising funds for?

Armed robbery, fraud, embezzlement, these are fund raising enterprises as well. dont't you agree.

bros you need to see the G.O for additional info, i no dey there and am not part of the fund raising committee. i don't even attend the church.

plaetton: So 419 is fair because the victims also believe that you are doing it for cash?

if he knows i am doing it for his cash, yes. not just any cash, his cash

Pastor Kun: The idea of even dividing the 'partners' into ten groups based on how much they are willing to pledge is also very contrary to christian teachings in the bible.

bros, this is fund raising project, it has to be structured/organized.

plaetton: All scammers do it because they too need some cash.
[s]Robbers rob and kill [/b]because [b]they too need some cash.[/s]

So what you are saying is that if you need some cash, all is fair?

No. what am saying is if the so called 'victim' (assuming there is one) is aware you are doing it for the cash (to be provided by him, the 'victim'), then it's fair enough.

mkmyers45: I can see you are a RCCG member so i will do this once...

Com'on, i don't think have said enough to justify the statement above for the record, am not a member of RCCG.

mkmyers45: Their giving has bribed God to keep them alive...compared to people who died because God's hand wasn't tied in thier own case...

I understand. I tried to avoid the 'i asked God' and 'God told me' bit simply because i no dey there even though i have my suspicions. But the G.O did not come out to say so and so persons have been selected to participate in the covenant partnership project. He was even honest enough to say the project been reduced to three years, so peeps should not expect 'long life' from God

mkmyers45: Clearly signifying special attention for the partners no?

special attention, yes. but that is not say some other projects/partnership/association/club within the church don't receive similar or even better attention.

mkmyers45: Cheers mate

Thanks brother, i very much understand your position/views. The thing is you guys see the G.O as being 'super smart' for coming up with this fund raising strategy, i think one has to be a 'muturu' to see the partnership project as a 'get rich quick' / miracle receiving scheme. The G.O was quite honest, maybe not 100%.

Pastor Kun: However I don't think it is the biggest scam going on in the church today.

Thank you. The G.O intentions were clear; he/RCCG needed to raise some cash, shikena.

mkmyers45: and what is a catch phrase....

O you have to get the new model of this thing...

its classy...faster and more efficient than the current one you use...

This one is cool but trust me this new one will blow you away

Gerritnow?

The G.O's approach is quite different. There was no attempt to compare one form of giving with another. i.e. He was not trying to sell covenant partnership as a better form of giving. You don't blame the G.O if the average attendee see the covenant partnership as the sole or better means to receiving his/her miracle.

mkmyers45: Aren't you seeing his cunning catch phrases?

I no see anything ooh!

if you are referring to the following posts ......

1.

musKeeto: He said “because those people were in covenant with you for ten years, I had no choice but to keep them alive for ten years”

He said “You tied my hands”. And I remembered all the miracles that happened in the life of my partners, and I thank God for all the miracles,

He is not saying every other member of the church died and there's just the covenant partners left. and he is not saying miracles did not happen in the life of non covenant partners.

2.

musKeeto: My own duty is that I pray for my partners everyday; not once a month but everyday. And I promise you, my God who had been faithful to me all these years will be faithful to my partners also in Jesus’ name. He made a promise, He said all those who are lifting up my hands, He said as I rise, they will rise. So you will rise with me in Jesus’ name.

That's not to say the G.O is not praying for non-covenant partners. But if you believe a daily dose of the G.O's prayer is all that's required for success, maybe you need to pay for it. The covenant partners are required to offer daily prayers in favor of the G.O

musKeeto: You will pray for us every day, even if it’s only one minute; very simple prayer ‘Father, strengthen your son, don’t let his anointing run dry, don’t let him fail you, let him finish strong’.

mkmyers45: Okay so the G.O is a aharp guy taking advantage...cool

if na you nko? G.O is quite influential (almost 'God' rated status), and he the church needs the money.