₦airaland Forum

non capax: The doctrine of election is hard to swallow, but we must accept it if the bible is our final authority.

It is the interpretation that is hard to swallow. No issues accepting the bible as our final authority.

5solas: I will simply state that it is clear that God chose some people. Why else would the scripture talk of anyone being chosen at all. Is it not laughable to say God chose all? If He chose all, then He chose none.

I would say that God chose a group of people first (the Israelite), then later expanded to include all others (Gentiles).

Deep Sight: My personal experience of predictive dreams has led me to the (perhaps seemingly absurd) conviction that some experiences and events can hardly be avoided.

Some experiences, yes. Take for example you had this dream your boss gave you a raise, came to work the following morning with a promotion letter sitting on your desk. That's not within your control. What you can control is the ability to accept the offer. What if in your dream you got this offer to work in Iraq for 3 times your current earnings. You wake up the following morning with the offer in your mail. Do you think this particular 'event' can be avoided

5solas: Do you agree that at least some things are predestined? How can you tell which are predestined and which are not, if so?

Events could be pre-destined, but does it take away free-will? I think we are mixing things here. Dreaming of an event prior to it occurrence have nothing to do with freewill. It will happen if it is not within our power to change it.

Ihedinobi: Welcome, 5solas. Glad to have you here. Why do you agree with the Calvinist views and what Scriptures do you think they are consistent with?

Good question. Cos i see inconsistencies.

Dhelake: Tell me who dey should giv it to, Foreignerz?

I believe the Navy should be able to source their equipment, through the FG. Don't tell me the consultant is more knowledgeable when it comes to sourcing armaments for the military.

superior1: PRESIDENT Goodluck Jonathan, on Tuesday, told chieftains of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) that opposition parties have continued to run down the Federal Government and the ruling party.

Lol. It's not a Nigeria thing. In any society where you have opposition, that's what they do; attempt to bring down the ruling government. It's normal, so there's no cause for alarm.

Interesting. Am seeing a lot of 'image polishing' here (or is it branding?). Is it really necessary? i don't think so. will it improve the perception? No. The 'si-down look' approach to crisis management is not helping matters. GEJ should work to win converts, let his work speak for him. He's not going to get the needed support if the outcome of his activities impact just the media (newspaper, t.v, NL e.t.c), peeps need to feel the positive impact of GEJ so called transformation agenda.

Okija_juju: Im not surprised.. Edo people are part Yoruba.. They talk too darn fhucking much....

Maybe you don't like oshiomole, but it's not enough justification for the comment above.

Mandelaguy: The man is saving us from destruction,the destruction our leaders in the past had pushed us to,

This is one reason he's getting a lot of insult. There's nothing to show he's capable of achieving this.

Mandelaguy: the issue is that Nigerians expected magic,

Of course! Nigerians were eager to get out of the situation past leaders created and they thought GEJ was a magician. If they had known otherwise ...

Mandelaguy: the mess in the polity is a clean up tha will be gradual,and it can only work if the makers for a progressive society are put in place and tha is what GEJ is doing.

I am also of the view that GEJ be given more time to deliver (if he can!). The fear is the pace he's working. At the current pace, he might require more than 8years to put this so called 'makers' in place (so who's going to do the clean-up? or you don't believe it's possible for the guy coming after GEJ to scatter this so called 'makers' of progressive society?). But this is just one reason he is getting lot of insults. Am sure there are 'hundreds' more.

Mandelaguy: If we start listing all the lies,man will shed tears.

Who's shedding tears this time? you or GEJ. If you are referring to GEJ, i don't think he should be crying because of 'ordinary' insult/lie. That's not an excuse for under-performance

Mandelaguy: A lot of lies keep cropping up from up against the President and Commander in Chief of the Armed forces of the Federal Republic of Nigeria,President Goodluck Ebele Azikiwe Jonathan despite the war he is waging in restoring the pride of the nation and it keeps baffling me.

Don’t know much about the ‘lies’ bit. If he’s waging a war, it’s probably happening in his bedroom cos we are not seeing much. I think people should criticize if there is a need for it. The insult could be as a result of the president not meeting the expectations of a good number of peeps who supported him in the 2011 election.

Mandelaguy: This is a nation that has been mismanaged since independence with every cow boy having a field day with our resources,courting massive corruption in the petroleum industry,power sector,trade and investment,natural and mineral resources,construction,police,civil service,pension management and virtually anything and everything you can think of and here is a man that is facing the herculean task of regressive speeding on the path of economic destruction,

I am happy you know we are “speeding on the path of economic destruction”. There is nothing on ground (yet) to show that the president is attempting to stop the bus from ‘going over the cliff’. The way I see it I think he already jumped out of the bus (leaving the passengers). It’s either he lost control (due to brake failure maybe?), or he just don’t give a damn anymore.

Mandelaguy: Is it because the man is not violent and a manipulator or and evil genius? An answer is required please!

It’s easier for the man that rigged his way into power to do things that are not in the interest of the people; not so for the man that got nationwide support. I want to believe lots of peeps are disappointed. GEJ will receive more bashing if he goes violent.

Mandelaguy: If this is criticism,then it is blind,disjointed,hate filled and malice driven castigation!

Well, that's a possibility. You don't expect everybody to like him, do you? You are aware some peeps did not vote for him. That's is not to say he does not deserve some.

wesley80: Safe to assume the 20 or so companies that scrambled for refining licences in anticipation of total deregulation of the downstream sector did so cos somewhere in Texazzpete's grandma thot me logic, they all desire lesser profit. Come to think of it, Shell, Total, Mobil et al are involved in numerous biz lines in Ngr just like they are in other countries aroun the world cos of the super profit they make. Not so, genius?

Refining is indeed a low profit margin business (anywhere in the world). There's probably more to the agreement than we know. I don't see reasoning for 'Vulcan' pumping $4.5billion into uncertainty (on the assumption that this is not another home video from the aso rock movie production unit).

Beaf: Lol! Oshiomole might have done well, but it is the overwhelming opinion that General Airhiavbere is head and shoulders beyond Oshiomole both intellectually in in vision. Edo state deserves excellence.

whose opinion? Anenih's opinion maybe it's PDP opinion

@frosbel, i believe you collected some cool cash from GEJ before starting the thread i'll pray if you are willing to share the 'loot'

@Jem1, keep up the good work

Image123: i don't know, you may know since you are bringing it up. What i do know is that a tithe is a tenth, whether it's in Genesis or Malachi or Matthew or Revelation.

Not all the time sir. Tithe as a tenth was created by man, God did not say it will always be a tenth. If we follow God's definition of tithe (Leviticus), you find that that God's tithe is not always a tenth It ranges from zero to 10% with the possibility of increasing your total tithe cost to 12% when exercise the option to cash-in your tithe and pay additional penalty/fine of 2%. for example (edit: reference to Jem1 post above) the shepherd with an increase of 9 animals will pay zero tithe, one with an increase of let say 18 animals will submit one (about 6%) as tithe. If we decide to push it further, God's definition of 'annual tithe' will amount to a maximum of 20% (22% with penalty) and 30% every third year.

A self created/imposed obligation to render a tenth of your income to God via remittance to your pastor is not bad, what's bad is when the pastor preach this man made/defined ritual as God's instruction

Image123: Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Are you saying because Paul claimed to be the son of a pharisee, you also see yourself as the son of a pharisee? what exactly is the message here?

Image123: i said the whole of scriptures ARE. ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of GOD. The golden calf passage IS ALSO THE WORD OD GOD. Any sane mature christian would know from that passage that God detests idol worship. Any other?

How does inspiration becomes a commandment? now you see why Kunle keep calling you 'olodo'

Image123: I have done twenty seven pages with you guys already. We have an agreement, remember?

I have to admit never expected you'll go beyond 1 or 2 pages of posts, even though you echieved it by mis-interpreting/twisting the scriptures all the same you don try, for being bold enough to come out here and defend the fraud inspired pastoral definition of tithe your pastor will be proud

Oga Jo, you don start this your 419 advertisement again are we not talking 'bout the same rhapsody that was unable to take over oyaks village? oyaks being able to convince/confuse one local pastor in Romania to use the book is not enough to conclude that it has taken over Romania. I believe your intention was to title the thread - 'rhapsody of realities takes cover in Romania' before you changed your mind.

Image123: i don't need a levite brother, i already found a priest like Melchisedec that collected tithes too. His order collects tithes too.

@Image123, you don't have to insult the priesthood of the Lord just because you must prove a point on tithing. you had the gut to rate Melchi's priesthood as equal in ranking to that of Christ! If you have problem understanding the Hebrews text, you should seek assistance. According to the order of Melchizedec means 'similar to' and there are very few similarities between Christ's priesthood and that of Melchi, and it does not include tithe

Image123: But what are the commandments? The whole of scriptures are the commandments of God, aren't they? Are the commandments of God limited to Leviticus 27v3something?
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Obviously, these too are the commandments of God. The whole of Leviticus is. the whole Bible is

Saying the whole of the scriptures are the commandments of God is misleading. Not all events, actions/act e.t.c in the bible were commanded by God. for e.g. you are saying it was God that commanded the Israelite to make the golden calf.

East: @Zikky,
That was just an illustration (Melchizedek),

Becos we have two types of tithes in the bible

- one paid by abraham to Melchizedek
- One paid by the rest of the tribes of israel to Levi which was a law.

So take a stand; are you for Melchi or you are for Levi? That way we know how to address your concern

East: Thanks for d comments so far

My brother, thank you for thanking me

Jem1: @ East, so

1. You agree the tithing during the law is not for Christians BUT
2. You believe Malachi curses under the law are for Christians TODAY

In his desperate attempt to make some sense, the poor chap maneuvered himself into a tight corner, lol

East: Tithing might not have been commanded to be be in monetary terms. Ok let me ask you this question,

- If during the harvest season we all bring our perishable crops to the house of God as tithes (just imagine a congregation of 100 all bring fresh potatoes, beans, bananas etc),
what do you think is going to happen to it or how can we store them given that these crops are perishable?

I think the question you should be asking yourself is how the Israelite managed to preserve their perishables, abi you can learn a thing or two from them

East: - Now what if after this life we find out that we actually robbed God?

You just told us why you've decided to remit a tenth of your income to your pastor; fear!

Jem1: You sir resemble the Pharisee more than JESUS!

That's the reason Image123 will continue to tell you that Jesus was talking to him in Mathew 23:23? it's because he believes he's a pharisee

East: However before the law came we can see that abraham paid tithes to Melchizedeck king of salem who was not a levite.

'Before the law' tithing was practiced(mainly of pagan nature. even Ra, the sun god received tithe ), but at the time it was not an act required/commanded by God. The only tithe required/instructed by the God is that stated in the law. So you are on your own if you chose to adopt any tithing practice other than the one commanded by God

East: The bible records

that the levites also paid tithes to melchizedek when there were still in their ancestor's body.

correction: Levi paid tithe in/through Abraham. Maybe Abraham tithed on his behalf It was not recorded that Levi continued to tithe to Melchi after he was born.

East: Spiritually speaking, we are not payings these tithes to our pastors and we do not really need to analyse how the tithes are spent, Physical we pay tithes to a church
But spiritually we are paying tithes to Melchizedec who is God's high priest and who is not a decendent of levi.

We do no pay tithes to and in the way the children of israel did to the levis. We pay tithes the way abraham did to melchizedek

Levi did not continue the tithe payment practice, so why can't you accept that you've also paid your tithe in Abraham. Must you remind yourself of that fact by continuing in your monthly remittance to your pastor (in remembrance of what Abrams did on your behalf)? That approach makes your act a (pagan) ritual

East: Spiritually speaking, we are not payings these tithes to our pastors and we do not really need to analyse how the tithes are spent, Physical we pay tithes to a church
But spiritually we are paying tithes to Melchizedec who is God's high priest and who is not a decendent of levi.

. . . and who told or instructed that you pay tithe (spiritually) to Melchizedec? My brother, are you sure you are not worshiping Meklchizedek? I think you have derailed o! you better check yourself before it is too late.

East: We have to pay tithes to melchizedeck

Says who?

East: Mechizedeck is a high priest of God who lives forever.

If Melchizedec is a high priest of God who lives forever, can you tell us where he is currently? i mean the temple where he is currently officiating? I am not sure you guys ever bother to examine your interpretation of the scriptures you post, you just interpret to serve the immediate purpose Did you ever consider the fact that your interpretation of the Hebrew verse would imply that there are currently two high priest? Christ and Melchizedec The bible records that there is only one high priest; Christ. Maybe you saying Melchizedec is a retired high priest (even though he lives forever)? in that case, you don't have to remit tithe (physically or spiritually) to a retired high priest, abi

East: The bible says that if we are abraham's seed then we most do the works of Abraham, one of the works of abraham is that he paid tithes.

Na wa oh i no fit talk again

This is the bit i don't like you don't have to mis-interpret scriptures to prove your point

Image123: People generally supported priests in the time of old. Taht's what Jacob was thinking of doing when he mentioned giving tithes. It was not unusual to give tithe to priests even among pagans.

So you are now a mind reader abi? Jacob told you he was thinking of supporting priests abi?

Image123: The order changed from the Order of Melchisedec, to the Order of Aaron, to the Order of Melchisedec. the Order of Melchisedec can(and have) surely receive tithes and continue to receive forever.

If the order of Melchi continue to receive tithes, who is paying tithe to Melchi? Image123? you've abandoned Christ to serve/worship Melchi. that's so pagan

Image123: Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; [size=14pt]but there[/size] he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

But 'there' he receiveth them. If you don't mind me asking, don't you think the writer was referring to a specific point in time?

Image123: i tell you one thing Christ as also spoken.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Now verse 1 becomes verse '22' na wa for you Image123 So you are saying it was the disciples receiving the 'woe' Looks like you're still high on dangerous drugs

Image123: @Zikky
Tithe is a type of giving, i've always said that.

Maybe i should explain. When i referred to the act of giving, i meant charitable giving. Can we say the rendering of a tenth of income (tithe) qualifies or can be categorized as charitable giving (as the tither 'purposeth in his/her heart')? When it becomes a laid down rule (as defined by the pastor) for every Christian to comply with, then it is no longer 'giving' as instructed by Christ or the apostles.

Image123: So my dear, when you tithe, you are actually GIVING tithe.

and that's the difference, all you've done was to give tithe; you have not given in accordance to the instruction from Christ or the apostles.

Image123: i've not decided to adopt the levitical tithing model, i've decided to learn from it.

If this is how you see the rendering of a tenth of your income, i have nothing more to say. I totally agree with you. It's the tithe preachers i have issues with

Image123: Obedience to the Word of God brings blessing, whether it's obeying God's Word to pray or have faith, or love, or tithe, or be holy.

When you tithe (remit a tenth of your income to your church)out of obedience you are only obeying the words of the pastor, God did not instruct the Christian to give a tenth of their income to the local church. So if you really need to comply with the word of God you don't tithe; you give instead (whether 5%, 10% or even 100%). If you decide to adopt the levitical tithing model as a means to financing the activities of your church, i believe it is acceptable. But it is something you chose to do; not based on any rule or commandment from God.

Image123: "And as I may so say, LEVI also, who receiveth tithes, PAYED TITHES in Abraham." (Hebrews 7:9).

Do you know that Image123 worshiped and rendered offerings to 'sango' (the god of thunder)? He worshiped 'sango' in his great great grandfather you know how? well, it was because he was still in his great great grandfather's loins while the old chap was rendering offerings to sango i believe i make a lot of sense here, abi?

Apostle Image123, you still dey here I m not really here to discuss tithe but i like to respond to your posts.

Image123: What's the purpose of giving a tenth to the God? It is to consistently take care of God's workers that serve in the tabernacle.

So you know the purpose is not a means of acquiring wealth, abi? Good boy

Image123: What's the purpose of taking another tenth and sharing it with others? It is to inculcate a sharing spirit, generosity. As long as generosity and the spirit of sharing is encouraged, it's very fine.

I'm happy you know this So why are pastors preaching tithe as a get rich quick scheme?

Image123: It's hard to see people faithful to the number 1 tithe, people would even evade tax if possible. To ask or request an additional tenth, making 20% of all the congregation(to me) may be quite tasking. Not everyone loves to give.

I see you have answered the question i raised above. Now you see why the tithe scheme should not be preached. It's contrary to everything Christ and the apostles taught us. It does not encourage love/generosity; rather it forces people to give. And you honestly believe Christ would have instructed you to do things that do not encourage love/charity?

Image123: i see pastors teach giving, sowing, charity all the time.

What is the nature of giving here? is it giving for returns or giving/sowing out of love for God/our neighbor?

Image123: 8d). Levi paid tithes in Abraham, how would you say Levi never paid tithes?

How can you say Levi paid tithe? tithe of what? Image123 you have to tell us what exactly Levi paid to Melchi? He gave Melchi 10% of his salary abi? Paying tithe in Abraham does not imply that Levi actually paid tithe. That's the problem when you read and interpret verse in isolation. You completely lost the message which was to show the inferiority of the levitical priest to Melchi's priesthood.

flourishG: Tithe is a tenth part of ALL your increase. It is holy unto the Lord and must not be eaten.

Lol Obvious you are not serious.

flourishG: i have answered your question. how else do you want me to teach tithe when it is recorded in the bible.

How have you been teaching tithe?

flourishG: Tithe is all over the pages of the bible. from genesis to revelation contains tithing.

Please open the bible and read from it (then interpret). That's what make an MoG MoG don't tell the congregation tithe is all over the bible, they should go look for it. MoGs open their bible, quote then interpret or sometimes reverse the process i.e. teach, open the bible and quote to support the teaching. Act like the MoG you claim to be What are you afraid of?

flourishG: but if not it's okay you learn from those that God gave the grace of teaching his word.

exactly why i want you to teach

flourishG: It's not everyone that reads the word that understand so i won't blame it on you. this is why God gave the teachers to the body of christ, for the perfection of the saints.

Good, so teach