₦airaland Forum

nuclearboy: Wisdom, knowledge & understanding

And humility!

Oga Nuke, You still dey naija? I be think say you follow the last satallite GEJ dem launch go space last time How body na? hope you dey kampe

@Apostle Image123,

na you dey write this long tory on tithe? you never write this kind tory before. which kind drug you don go swallow this time

buzugee: those children were not innocent. 300 years of hardcore slavery. in 300 years the 3rd or 4th generation of slavers would have come back to earth again in the reincarnation. those were the people getting killed. there is a method to the lord. he works with numbers. and same goes for the people with diseases and those drinking poisoned water. they are the reincarnation of the slavers. notice how for around 300 years the lord didnt do nothing. he waited until their iniquities was ripe and the slavers had reincarnated till he start to throw down the pestilence and whatnot.
exodus 20 vs 5 I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

buzugee: Major General Goshen i troway salute Sir. be like say you never read that verse about atheists with dull ears the lord done dull their ears because they still owe the lord some major butt whippings ISAIAH 6 VS 10[b] Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed[/b]

LOL

Goshen360: ^^^
Yes, so why did you say tithe before. E be like say you dey play game o,lol

Am sticking to my position, the product will not sell itself, you need to take it to the market. You need tithe to achieve this

Goshen360: ^^
The example i gave you entails the sacrificial giving of the people that have seen the power of God.

But seriously, the truth is a good number of people in church today are not there becos they love God. You first have to make true Christians of the congregation before you can achieve sacrificial giving. Pastors have not been able to achieve this. Sacrificial giving will not work in a situation where you have a tight fisted/stingy congregation only willing to give for a return. The reason why pastors need to be creative in their revenue drive, they given up all hope of getting the congregation to practice sacrificial giving.

Goshen360: v47:
Praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

I don't think this will fit into the pastor's long term strategy. If you want to grow the numbers real fast, the signs and wonders bit works wonders

Goshen360: The answer to Church growth is found in Acts 2:38-47 nkjv and i give you the extracts below:
Signs and wonders

This is what am talking about. This is the main driver today, all other ingredients are no longer valid But the question is how do you advertise the signs and wonders to the world? you need internet, satalite t.v, print media, hold events to showcase pastoral skillz on a periodic basis e.t.c This is where the tithe takings become useful.

Goshen360: The answer to Church growth is found in Acts 2:38-47 nkjv and i give you the extracts below:
Breaking of bread

Unless you want to break 'manna' from heaven, you need 'kudi' to make the bread available

ogajim: The mondern day Pastors use fear and "promotion" to both intimidate and "reward" the "faithful" among them who refused to act like the Berean Christians and question unholy Gospel being spewed out from their pulpits.

LOL @'promo' but bros, you have to agree the strategy makes a lot of sense

Goshen360: ^^^
make i show you how church grows in the bible, biblical proof of what grows the church, not tithing?

Whatever you've got, am sure it will not be applicable here oya, show me

Goshen360: ^^^
So i intend to tell him that tithe doesn't grow a church neither does it add to church growth or number,

It will if every member of the church renders 10% of their gross income. You think say na cowries church dey use to promote their brand?

Pastor Kun: .
ERROR #17: The church must teach and practice tithing in order to grow.

I agree with this bit. You should understand that it is the registered entity (a.k.a the business) being referred to as the church; not the people. Pastor Kun, you have to understand that 10% is big money. You can imagine if every member of a church like RCCG renders 10% of their annual earnings to the church, i am not sure the govt is able to generate that much money from personal income tax For the church to grow, expand (local & offshore) and diversify into other money milking spinning business (like education, aviation, printing/publishing, electronic media e.t.c) they need the big money from tithe. So this teaching is in order abeg

Enigma: there is no tithing doctrine except to say that a person can choose to do his own giving in the form of giving 10% into church.

I think percentage to be contributed should be determined by the giver. You would be influencing the amount to be given if you specify the %

Snowwy: We have records of tithing of all and all one possesses in the bible actually.

However, since offering is required today it will be nice to get a quote or quotes in the Old testament in which money was used as offering (rather than agric produce) to worship the Lord and thank Him.

Anyone?

Let me try

Nehemiah 10:32(KJV)
32Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God;

2 Kings 12:4(KJV)
4And Jehoash said to the priests, All the money of the dedicated things that is brought into the house of the LORD, even the money of every one that passeth the account, the money that every man is set at, and all the money that cometh into any man's heart to bring into the house of the LORD,

I want to believe you are happy now

Snowwy: @goshen,
I am just surprised this is all you have to offer....things have changed and moved on...yeah Zikky's advise.

thought you were no longer interested in the discussion. Anyways, i have seen you don't understand my post.

Snowwy: Yeah, incase you have not read up to that part in your bible, you do not need to burn anything as offering to God now...just give it. Read Paul in Phil 4:18:

I was only responding to something i observed in your post above If you say i don't need to burn my (cereal) offering as done/practiced in the O.T, i should "just give it", what are you saying? Are you not saying we moved away from the O.T practice? That's my understanding of your post it appears we've gone full circle and arrived back where we started cos that's what i stated in my initial (first) post, which of course you refused to accept

Zikkyy: 'Living of the gospel' does not mean the pastor is entitled to the priestly benefit under the law. It simply mean that those that preach the gospel are also entitled support just like their OT couterparts. The nature of support will be as determined by the giving practice of the early Christians.

You've come back to agree with my post above when you said i don't need to burn my cereal offering anymore don't know why it took you this long to accept this

Snowwy: 'But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.'

Underlying this statement is the fact that things have changed, we've moved on (or away) from the way things were done in the OT

Snowwy: I can see you are very sneaky.

oh com'on, this is not a fair comment i think my motive was clear enough, there was nothing to hide. I did not deviate from issue i raised in my initial (first) post, so i don't see how you can say am sneaky

Snowwy: I can see this is nothing but a game to you.

No, not a game. Having fun does not make it a game, and it does not imply my post should not be taken seriously. I do my best to enjoy everything i do, that way i don't end up looking older than my age of course this is not achieved 100% of the time, but i do my best. You should try it sometime, it's good for your health

Snowwy: Read Lev. 2:1-3; Lev 6:14-17
Go read it up, the grain offering was a voluntary offering of worship and recognition of God's goodness of the 5 offerings given at the altar in Moses time.

I am posting Lev. 2:2 here

2And he shall bring it to Aaron's sons the priests: and he shall take thereout his handful of the flour thereof, and of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof; and the priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD:

and Lev. 6:15

15And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD.

You still don't get it. Are you saying burnt (grain) offerings is still applicable So we can still take our cereal/meat to the church and burn it on the pulpit 'for a sweet savour unto the Lord I told you it will be difficult for you to dribble your way out of this one

Snowwy: I have answered you enough. I was holding this unless you asked and you have.
Therefore, I think I am done here.

com'on Snowwy, you can't be doing this to your good friend how can you be stepping aside at this crucial stage of the discussion? It's not fair you know

Snowwy: @Zikky, the scripture explains itself as simply as it should.

I agree with this. You guys tend to complicate it by adding curry & salt.

Snowwy: 'Even so' and some scriptures say 'in the same way' has the Lord ordained that those who preach the gospel...'
And I have explained.

If i tell you that palace jesters in the days of our forefathers got paid for their effort and then add that "in the same way", i expect comedians like basket mouth to also receive payment anytime he is invited to entertain a traditional ruler. Do you honestly believe, it will be correct to interpret my statement as saying basket mouth should be paid with cowries? Is the mode of payment my concern or the need for the comedian to receive a just wage?

Snowwy: Paul spoke basically on the law throughout that verse, he talked about the right to eat and drink without working, and if it was wrong to reap our material things since he has sowed spiritual things. He took wages from churches and yet you say it is my gospel.

You've said it the theme was about receiving wages for effort. So what's is this talk that the verse is saying pastors should be supported with tithe?

Snowwy: [/i][i]
There were other offerings of the altar that were applicable like thanksgiving offerings and other gifts.

Do you know what altars are used for? I know of two altars in the OT; the altar of burnt offering and the altar of incense (for burning incense ). So, what are talking about? What burnt offering is still applicable? Let's see how you dribble your way out of this one I hope you will not run away this time

Snowwy: [/i][i]
Even Matthew 5:23 is a good example.

You could not find as a verse in the whole of the OT, you had to visit the book of Mathew Don't tell me you finally agreed with goshen360 that Jesus lived under the law Anyways all i need from you is the list of burnt offerings that are still applicable, chikenna

Maybe you can also take some time to describe this thankgiving offering you are talking about, cos i still don't understand it

Snowwy: @Zikky, the nature of pastoral support was never an issue, it is you and the others making an issue over it.

Where! when! How? My intervention on this thread has to do with your interpretation of 1 Co. 9:13-14, nothing more.

Snowwy: The scripture is there as plainly written for all yet you ask me why my interpretation is what it is? You are still asking me why I interprete that as the ministers of old lived of the temple, so has the Lord commanded that those that preach the gospel should live of it.

Well you are yet to provide me with the reason why you should interprete it differently. Simple.

You've spiced up that particular verse and delivered something quite different from that of Paul. Check out the quotes below; one from the bible and one from the gospel according to Snowwy see if you can spot the difference

1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel

Vs. gospel according to Snowwy:

1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the things of the Jewish temple and partake of the altar chop-chop.

BERNIMOORE: @snowwy,

HAVE YOU NOT BEEN TOLD TO DESIST FROM USING 'AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHIEDECK' WHICH DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR POINT ON THE TITHE,NEITHER DOES IT EMPOWER YOU ANY EXTRA RIGHT OUTSIDE THE NULIFICATION OF THE LEVI PRIESTHOOD ON THE CROSS.
YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT CHRIST PRIESTHOOD 'AFTER THE ORDER'MEANS WILL BE SIMILAR;'LIKE FOR LIKE' OR 'RESEMBLE'THAT OF MELCHIDEDECH WHO DOUBLED AS KING-PRIEST,SAME WAY JESUS PRIESTHOOD (after the order)WILL 'RESEMBLE' MELCHIZEDECK PRIESTHOOD,AND IT HAPPENED WHEN JESUS WAS DECLARED 'KING OF KINGS'AND A 'PRIEST FOREVER',ANYTHING OUTSIDE THIS FORMULATED AS A 'PRIESTHOOD ORDER OF MELCHIZEDECK'THAT EMPOWERS FRAUD IS TOTALLY NOT SUPPORTED IN THE BIBLE,
BUT WAS CONCUCTED USING 'DEAD TECHNICALITIES'

i think you are talking to a brick wall. You are talking to people that don't understand what it means when they say Christ took over a priestly office previously occupied or vacated by a man. They still don't understand that their view of Melchi's priesthood (office) indicates one that is sustained by succession. i.e. from Melchi to Jesus. Well, in a ranch/farm land where the flock refused to go out in search of lush meadow but rather wait and feed on the sh.it poor quality feeds the equally lazy and greedy shepherd brings in, what you get is malnourished flock

Snowwy: Besides the tithes, the priests were entitled to portions of these sin offerings, tresspass offerings and other oblations which were brought to the altar by the people- which don't apply.

You agree some offerings don't apply abi? Yet Paul made reference to them. If Paul had just the things of the temple in mind, that verse would have gone like this:

1Co 9:13-14 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple?. . . . Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

There was no need to refer to the things of the altar if he did not want you to partake of the altar. So question for you; if the things of the altar don't apply anymore, why did Paul refer to the things of the altar? i know you will avoid this question, but it something for you to think about.

Snowwy: However if the inference from the OT tells us how the ministers of old lived and later a scripture tells us our High priest is a priest after the order of another priest who himself received tithes, then I don't think tithe being received or given is not having a better understanding of the message. Especially if Jesus said tithe should NOT be left undone.

You are the one thinking tithe. If you are going to interpret a bible verse as referring to or talking about tithe, the bible verse should truly be talking about tithe. So when you refer to that particular verse to substantiate the remittance of a tenth of your income to the church, the verse should be support your claim.

So the question we should be asking ourselves is what was the purpose of that verse? what was Paul's concern in that chapter? was it about support/benefit for those that preach the gospel or was it about the nature of the support/benefit? Was Paul really concerned bout the nature of the support? Reading from the first verse, you can tell the nature of pastoral support was never an issue. I still don't understand how can you interpret that verse to imply that Paul was talking about supporting pastors with tithe.

Snowwy: However if the inference from the OT tells us how the ministers of old lived. . . .

The inference from the OT tells us how the ministers of old lived, but it did not tell us to also live exactly as the ministers of old lived. If those that minister about holy things live of the things of the temple and they that wait at the altar are partake of the altar, so also those that proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel. How does making your living from the gospel equate to living of the things of the temple or partaking of the offerings at the altar?

Snowwy: @goshen,
He goes on to explain that is he saying this as a MERE man or doesn't even the law confirm the fact that he who tends to the flock also enjoys it's milk?

. . . and it is not a licence for the pastor to go suck the milk out of the female members of the church It's just an analogy.

Snowwy: Read on...then he says that the Lord has COMMANDED that those who preach the gospel should live of the gospel just like the ministers of old ate of the holy things of the temple.

The idea of comparing an NT requirement to an OT practice is not a charge for us to adopt the OT practice, it's most times just a means of providing clarification or better understanding of the message. 'Living of the gospel' does not mean the pastor is entitled to the priestly benefit under the law. It simply mean that those that preach the gospel are also entitled support just like their OT couterparts. The nature of support will be as determined by the giving practice of the early Christians. What were the holy things of the early church? certainly not tithe, it was never mentioned.

1 Corinthians 9:13 (KJV)
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

What were the holy things of the temple that ministers of old benefited from from?

Numbers 18:8-10 (KJV)
8And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever. 9This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: every oblation of their's, every meat offering of their's, and every sin offering of their's, and every trespass offering of their's which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons. 10In the most holy place shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.

Leviticus 7:5-10 (KJV)
5And the priest shall burn them upon the altar for an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a trespass offering. 6Every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the holy place: it is most holy. 7As the sin offering is, so is the trespass offering: there is one law for them: the priest that maketh atonement therewith shall have it. 8And the priest that offereth any man's burnt offering, even the priest shall have to himself the skin of the burnt offering which he hath offered. 9And all the meat offering that is baken in the oven, and all that is dressed in the frying pan, and in the pan, shall be the priest's that offereth it. 10And every meat offering, mingled with oil, and dry, shall all the sons of Aaron have, one as much as another.


If we go by what we read in the old testament, the tithe does not get to the altar. What gets to the altar and given to the priest are offerings like guilt offering, cereal/meat offering, sin offering e.t.c. so, if the pastor is to live of the holy things of the temple/altar, he should be considering the offerings listed above (excluding tithe).

goshen360: @ Ijila,

I challenge you eat your so called tithe next time and see if God will still not bless you (Deuteronomy 14:22-29).

My brother this is dangerous ooh you don't just dish out this kind of advice you should know the implication of the lady chopping her tithe if NEPA take power while she is watching her favorite program on t.v. it will because her tithe is outstanding same thing if she eat bad food and develop stomach upset or even if she goes to the saloon and the hairstylist does a bad job in fact, everything will be attributed to the outstanding remittance. You want the lady to loose her sanity abi for some tithers, checking into rehab will be required to clean their system of the pastoral poison

goshen360: @ Zikky,

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it. God bless you. One thing I want us to decide is who do we select or agree on a topic to teach on? Everyone is going to come up with a topic bothering him or her, how do we treat everyone fairly is my concern about the topical teaching. I don't have problem doing topical at all. Am in for anything we decide. Already the poll supports topical but like you said,we might not be treating anything new but it doesn't matter,the word of God is never old,we can learn more. So how do you think we go about this issue of picking what topic to discuss? Do we make it alphabetically or we rotate the selection? If we can decide this issue, we are good to go my brother. Am not discouraged,I really want us as children of God not just to come online and do unfruitful things but to use it as opportunity to grow in God's word.

Let me hear your feedback please. Thanks

My brother, i just don't envy you since the idea is to have a better understanding of the bible, the book/chapter/verse approach appears to be the best choice. i was just expressing my concern/fear that you might end up doing it alone.

goshen360: ^^^
This is one problem we are going to be facing with topical studies, the ability to determine which topic to teach. I hope we re-visit out thought and simple consider chapter by chapter as it collaborates with verses. Guys, let's do this together and let's put our resources and knowledge together to teach God's word. It will go a long way correcting false teachings. Thank you all.

hate to sound discouraging goshen, but i don't see you going far with the chapter/chapter or verse/verse approach. I don't think peeps will find it interesting. A topical approach will be more interesting and probably receive more participation/views (probably the reason pastors prefer the topical approach; get the members adrenal glands pumping hard enough to make them reach for their wallet/cheque book anytime the pastor make that call ). But the problem with a topical approach is that you might not be discussing anything new.It's also likely you end up figthting.

OLAADEGBU: Abraham obeyed the commandments and laws of God and he paid tithes to Melchizedek even the Levis paid tithes in Abraham. Children of Abraham who want his blessing should also pay tithes and offerings.

Oga OLAADEGBU, you know this is not right now When you know Abraham did not make his money by paying tithe & offering, why recommend this approach to peeps desirous of Abraham's type wealth

deprince0: Christ has appointed his preachers as his representatives. hence when u pay ur tithe to them,

LOL Now i know why you guys pray to and worship your pastors

Joagbaje: Do you give offering to God? If you answer This, it should answer your question too.

Attempting to dodge the question abi We give offerings to meet the varying needs of the body of Christ.Since we are not required to give offering directly to the high priest, giving offering is therefore different from giving tithe (which according to you goes straight to the high priest). You said tithe is for the high priest; with Christ as the current high priest, tell us how we send our tithe to obodo heaven, simple

Joagbaje:
Tithing has to relivance to Christ as regards fulfillment of the law like sabbath. The connection with Christ as regards our tithes is the fact that he is our high priest. We give tithes to the high priest . As. Long as there's a high priest there will be tithing. Remember it was in existence before the law came . So tithing was not instituted under the law. It's an eternal principle just like praying, worship, offering ,

So how do we send our tithe to the high priest?

wordtalk:
the priesthood of Melchizedek stands out above all other priesthoods of the OT because it was predicated on a DIVINE OATH

Where is this from? I don't see it anywhere in the bible

wordtalk:
If you want to argue against the fact on the basis of Hebrews 7:14, then let me ask you: what happens when a Levite is from the family of Judah - could he not also be a priest? If not, WHY then do we find a clear example of a case of a Levite priest who was from the family of JUDAH as in Judges 17:7?

The issue of 'regular line of priesthood' does not even arise here - because that is not what the writer sought as his ground of argument. He knew that if he were to make the argument of 'regular line', some of his recipients would have invalidated that kind of argument upon the fact that a Jew from the family of JUDAH was also recognized as a Levitical priest in Israel - Judges 17:7.

A Levite from the tribe of Judah How can a Levite be from the tribe of Judah unless he is also a Levite We know Levite can marry other tribes as shown in chapter 19, but they are still a Levite.

Judges 19:1 (KJV)
And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite sojourning on the side of mount Ephraim, who took to him a concubine out of Bethlehemjudah.

Anyways, i think the issue here is restrictions on the office of the high priest. Your reference to the Judges 17 & 18 is not valid cos that was a period peeps do as they pleased.

Judges 17:6
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Micah even consecrated his son just before that.

Judges 17:5
And the man Micah had an house of gods, and made an ephod, and teraphim, and consecrated one of his sons, who became his priest.

Can you even imagine the Levite was bribed collected salary for his efforts not different from our modern day pastors

Judges 17:10
And Micah said unto him, Dwell with me, and be unto me a father and a priest, and I will give thee ten shekels of silver by the year, and a suit of apparel, and thy victuals. So the Levite went in.

Who consecrated the Levite from Judah? you can be sure it was not approved by God. The man Micah was just deceiving himself jare

Judges17:11-12 (KJV)
And the Levite was content to dwell with the man; and the young man was unto him as one of his sons. 12And Micah consecrated the Levite; and the young man became his priest, and was in the house of Micah.