₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje: Tithing pre existed Levitical priesthood. It's a spiritual principle.

Pastor Kun: Kindly explain why this is a spiritual principle.

We've come to that point in a tithing discussion where Joagbaje takes the emergency exit

Joagbaje: Matthew 23:23. (Living bible)
"Yes, woe upon you, Pharisees, and you other religious leaders-- hypocrites! For you tithe down to the last mint leaf in your garden, but ignore the important things-- justice and mercy and faith. Yes, you should tithe, but you shouldn't leave the more important things undone.

Most religious men value Jesus words more than epistles . But they seem to turn blind eyes to this . Jesus said. We should tithe . Nobody in the bible ever said otherwise . Not even God.

"[size=14pt]Yes, woe upon you[/size], Pharisees ([size=4pt]joagbaje[/size] ), and you other religious leaders-- hypocrites! For you tithe down to the last mint leaf in your garden......"

Joagbaje are you saying anytime you read the quote above, you truly feel that it describes you? that Jesus was talking to you?

I know image123 considers himself a pharisee, the reason he's glued to Mathew 23:23

The message in Mathew 23:23 was for Scribes & Pharisees (hypocrites ), if you believe you belong to the category listed, you can continue to tithe

Joagbaje: Tithing didnt originate in the law. Melchizedek order was higher in rank than levitical order . Christ is in continuation of Melchizedek order. Levitical order was for jews . Melchizedek was not for jews. Jesus is high priest in order of Melchizedek .

Because you must justify tithe, you continue to rubbish Christ's priesthood. How can you say Christ is replacing Melchizedek in office? You have succeeded in elevating Melchizedek and ranking him alongside Christ. I wonder what you hope to gain by this?

Joagbaje: This is not about what a pastor say. But rather what the bible says . There was never a place where God put an end to tithing . Tithes and offering are for ever .

I want to agree with this. God did not put an end to tithing, what he did was to put an end to the tithing practice he instituted (the practice of paying a tenth of farm produce to the Levites). Any other tithe practiced is personal to the payee, God did not ask for it.

Joagbaje: There was never a place where God put an end to tithing.

Just like there was never a place where God instituted tithing before the law.

Joagbaje: Tithes and offering are for ever .

Yes. offerings are for ever. History has it that pagan gods received tithes and offerings, even 'sango' continues to receive offering. The issue is not what is forever but the nature of offerings required of us as Christians. Did God demand that Christians render a tenth (as a minimum or lower threshold) of all their income? No! The preaching of tithe and offerings as being forever is an attempt to confuse and milk the congregation. It is a false gospel.

Enigma: "Supremacy" according to the Roman Catholic "Church" --- per "Pope" Boniface VIII (Unam Sanctam).

Enigma, this one you are tormenting my brothers here, i don't understand. You just dey raise their blood pressure unnecessarily

By the way who be Pope Boniface? funny name

You better focus on st Augustine and stop derailing the discussion

wizzmc: [b]NAIRALANDERS!! dis has to stop
I want to believe some people are swerving away from the purpose of the use of Nairaland. We now have people who specialize in raining abuses on each other while some people do  no better thing with their membership profile than to castigate, criticize and speak ill of men of God. I can't condone the likes someone posting the picture of Bishop Oyedepo and saying he is dancing azonto. Don't you know it is absolutely wrong for you to open your mouth to speak (or use your fingers to type ) anyhow about men of God. Without being sentimental, I know of a truth that there is no religion that supports disrespect and disregard to their leaders. 
Spiritual leaders are meant to be respected because they are God's mouth to the people. We know of some people that kill their fellow human being all in the name of fighting against anyone the disrespects their spiritual leader. If you have any issue with any spiritual leader, discuss it with sanity of mind and heart for you not to unravel the wrath of God upon yourself. And of course you'll agree with me that nothing you have said or you will say here will change any man, you just keep suffering your mouth. How long are you going to continue in this immaturity of the highest order.
If you can achieved at least 10% of what Oyedepo has achieved in life, downrightly, it is certain you will not have the luxury of time for such talks.
Why not keep those lips of yours with all diligence and apply it to wisdom.
In a nutshell we cannot continue to have immature people here . He that walks with the wise shall be wise. Nothing but foolish utterances will come out of the mouth of a fool.
Anyone here should be matured enough, and also maturity should reflect in whatever they post and comments viz.
This ought to be a forum where important issues bothering the mind of youths and members generally should be discussed, mix ideas from all works of life, make friends, and above all get informed and updated with every happenings around you both at national and international levels.
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You think this is Iran abi?

@Mod, to ensure we don't read posts like this around here I recommend that this poster be banned

nuclearboy: I knew I'd return to Nairaland Religion and here I am! I think Kenyan28 should quickly clear the air - She was a Major prop to the lies and deceit then and only God knows how many people who would have been delivered from the clutch of evil manipulators had it not been for her testimony

Nuke, how body?

Not sure I made a post on this thread before today.

@bolded, please also consider the possibility that she might have gotten what appeared to be healing at the time.

ijawkid: Zikkky my bro...are you a catholic??....

I'm just having a nice discussion with my brothers...that aint bad....

Okay. I be think say na fight una dey

ijawkid: Did they use marys image in worship??

Is it not christianity we are talking about??

The bible should be our basis for discussion....I am against bowing down to mary because early christians never had records of doing that.....you insist it is very good to bow down and pray through mary.....oya show me how it all started you are asking me to open the scriptures.....

Show me how and where this whole pray ""through marys image"" saga started....

This man you no dey tire? It's either you are just having fun or you are a potential suicide bomber (you will be useful next time boko boys decides to blow up a catholic church).

I don't see how you will be able to convince italo & co with this your "if it ain't in the bible, it is a sin" approach. An act should not be considered a sin simply because it was not recorded in the bible. If you can show that the act is not in line with the teachings of Christ & the apostles, am sure they will agree with you.

Ihedinobi: We will learn through other believers and faithful obedience to the understanding we have received.

'faithful obedience to the understanding we have received'. Hmmm. what if the understanding is from a wrong source?

Ihedinobi: However, how opinions are formed determines their correctness. I said that the Christian's opinion is not formed in isolation. It is educated by the Holy Spirit through his brother and sister believers and through obedient experience, that is, obedience to the revelation/understanding he has received. Through these, he is corrected and his opinion shaped to the Truth.
.

What is the population of Christians with opinion of their own. Ogoamaka's opinion is the opinion of his/her pastor. This is one reason i am of the view your path to correctness will not be achieved 95% (or more) of the time. For most churches, what is correct is what the church leader(s) has taken as correct. Very few of posters actually come here with an opinion of their own.

My thoughts

Pastor Kun: Burnt offering and animal sacrifice pre dated the law, why don't you practise it today? Ole barawo buruku

Joagbaje: Was the booty of war grain? Yet Abraham gave tithe of all . We give tithe of all earnings.

Which tithe practice you dey follow self? Anyways Abraham tithe was before God defined his tithe. It's not binding on anybody. It was not even binding on his son & grandson. You can imagine Jacob was not tithing at the time he left home and was only looking to tithe on his return (that is if he ever tithe).It was still a matter of choice at the time.

To raise your blood pressure a little (and that of other pro withers), let me add that:

God re-defining tithe in Leviticus 27 means that all tithing practices prior to that becomes void. God defined what constitute his tithe in Lev. 27 and defined the beneficiary in Numbers 18 (& don't forget Deuteronomy), & God did not tell the Israelite to continue with the pre Lev. 27 tithe practice (if any). Only that defined under mosaic law was valid (as a commandment) at the time, and God has not told us his definition of tithe has changed. Conclusion: Mosaic tithe is for Jews, and Abrahamic tithe is obsolete

Joagbaje: The matter of choice I meant here is whatever extra we add to it.

Okay oo. If you say so.

Joagbaje: But it should not be less than the 10% .

This one is not in the bible oo! if i call it pastoral innovation you will say am criticizing the pastors, but i can't think of any other name for it. God defined his tithe from the Israelite in Leviticus 27:30-33 and he did not define it as a strict tenth. Tithe according to God's definition range from 0% to 10%.

Joagbaje: tenth is mans worship to his God .

I don't understand how tenth became mans worship to his God

Joagbaje: 10% of our earnings is Gods own .

God definition of his tithe:

Lev. 27:30 - "All tithes of the land, whether in grain from the fields or in fruit from the trees, belong to the LORD, as sacred to him.

Lev. 27:32 - The tithes of the herd and the flock shall be determined by ceding to the LORD as sacred every tenth animal as they are counted by the herdsman's rod.

As you can see, God did not say 10% of our earnings is his own.

Mckybarf: Hmmmm, first of all there is a clear distinction between tithes and general giving in the church and its all too obvious for all to see except for those who fail to see because they think they know just too much to be taught.

You are allowing sentiment to cloud your reasoning. The only distinction between tithes and general giving is the focus or emphasis on tithing by pastor and on the side of some of the givers, tithe is seen as a get rich quick scheme. The bible did not even recommend tithe for Christians.

Mckybarf: just search through the bible and find out who instituted it, for whom it was instituted and for what purpose.

If you ever bothered to pick up your bible you would have known that the person that instituted the act of tithing was never mentioned in the bible. If you knew the beneficiary of tithe, you will not be tithing today.

Mckybarf: Tithes are for upkeep of pastors and so are first fruit offerings. Other offerings are for other purpose as deemed fit by the church's authorities.

You just succeeded in telling us the authority you listen to.

Mckybarf: In christendom, the principle is sowing and reaping- these are spiritual protocols and no man can ever change them. What do you have that you did not recieve?

What bible are you reading? is it the one authored and published by your pastor?

Joagbaje: The bible teaches on freewill giving to God, giving to the poor ,giving to parents ,giving to MOG etc. when the poor were neglected ,God frowned at it. Even though the pole were giving offerings and tithe. When parents were neglected ,God frowned at it even though they were giving offerings and tithe. Jesus even spoke against those who gave tithes and refused to fulfill tithe other givings.

Luke 11:42
"But woe to you Pharisees! For though you are careful to tithe even the smallest part of your income, you completely forget about justice and the love of God. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave these other things undone.

He spoke against those who gave in Gods house and don't give to their parents.

Mark 7:11-12
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

We can't generalize giving , there will always be category. Because if you do one and neglected the other , it is error. Paul talk about giving to parents, poor, MOG etc.

The bible did not categorized giving, and that's the reason why God frowned at the act of neglecting the poor. Paul talked about various acts of giving, but he did not categorize giving. The act of giving is one complete package. Generalization by teaching Christians to love is the better approach. When a pastor categorize giving he stand the risk of teaching or focusing on a particular giving (e.g. pastoral seed ) while neglecting other givings. The risk to those on the other side (the congregation) is that it breeds greed, selfishness (prioritization of acts of charity based on expected returns or benefits to be derived). The bible does not teach this.

Joagbaje: Why will a pastor scheme with tithe. Tithing is one of the least givings in the church it's far too small. We give generally more than the tithe in our free will giving. We give cars , property ,fat cheques just for our love for God. This are far more than tithe. If someone want to scheme . It shouldn't be with tithe.

It does not have to be material before it can be considered wrong. The size of the tithe does not matter, it is still a contribution aimed at increasing the total collections. Even if it is just 10% of the total collection, it can just be what will enable the church to break even. Churches make more than one collection in a particular service, some of these collections are usually not material (maybe the 5th or 8th collection ). The point that pastors 'can' (and some have) adopt any scheme (tithe inclusive) to improve the church's cash inflows is still valid.

Joagbaje: They are not pastoral innovation . They are based on biblical principles mostly. Project giving existed in bible . Eg building of the terbanacle, then also building of the temple , Jesus had partners . Pastoral seed is biblical Galatians 6:6 talks about it. Etc. Before criticizing a man ,I would rather prefer us ask them question to know by what principles certain things are done.

These were all activities in the bible, but i don't remember reading anywhere in the bible where weights were attached to these activities in a manner that will give priority or value to these activities. Giving to the pastor is biblical (though i don't support your regarding such giving as 'seed'). I don't mind asking a pastor the basis for certain teachings, can you schedule an appointment? I would love to have a question and answer session with pastor chris.

Joagbaje: It's a matter of choice and faith. I personally give more than 10% as tithe . The inventor of earth moving machines (caterpillar) started with 20% as tithe ,before he died he was giving 90% as tithe and he lived on 10% . And the 10% left over is in billions . Which he still use to sponsor Gideon bibles all over the world.

Now you agree with me that it is not about commandment. This was what i meant when i said tithing as practiced today is not different from any other form of giving or church contribution. Joagbaje gives more than 10%, the caterpillar inventor tithe contribution range from 20% to 90%, Zikkyy can decide to give 40% to his church It's a matter of choice. This makes it freewill offering, and i have no problem with tithe being preached as freewill offering (percentage to be decided by the giver). What am against is the use of the bible to justify a lie (i.e. the mandatory 10% lower threshold )

Joagbaje: Tithe is not a free will giving. It belongs to God.

Nobody is saying tithe belongs to the devil. There are no rules for fixed % giving in Christianity, this effectively rules out tithing as a form of Christian giving.

Joagbaje: There are several kinds of givings in the bible. Tithes, alsmgiving, free will offerings, partnership,project, giving to MOG, giving to parents. Etc. WE ARE TO DO ALL. None should be neglected.

There are several kinds of giving in the bible (both old and new testament), but the categorization of givings into almsgiving, partnership, project, MOG offering e.t.c is pastoral innovation, the bible did not make such categorization. As Christians we are required to give (show love) and it can take any form depending on the situation. The command for Christians to tithe is unbiblical. Fixed percentage giving (tithe) is a pastoral scheme designed to milk the congregation.

You are spreading a false gospel sir. This is definitely no way to preach Christian giving. It's like saying there are several kinds of love in the bible; like loving your parents, loving the poor is another kind of love, or you can say loving your pastor is different. The fact that the apostles advised we should love all these people is not enough justification for categorizing love.

Joagbaje: Can you Quote the many scriptures which brought tithe to an end?

Your question has nothing to do with my post. Read my post very well, so I don't 'mock' you

Joagbaje: Tithe is not a free will giving. It belongs to God. Tithing is not replaced with free will offering. Tithing is not replaced with alms giving to the poor

Nobody said anything about tithe replacing any other 'form' of giving. All I said was that giving of 10% as practiced today is no different from other 'forms' of church contribution.

rhemaplus: What I think you should focus more on is 1. Letting people know that not paying tithe does not bring any malachi curse cos Jesus is already made a curse for us, so they can choose to pay or not

Maybe Goshen is already doing this but you don't see it. You should direct your advice at the tithe preachers teaching tithing as a commandment with a curse for non compliance.

Image123: In the OT, the law was kept to be righteous. In the NT, it is discovered that you can't keep the law. You have to first be righteous, then keep the law.

@image123, i have one question. I like to know the person that made this discovery.

Image123: He is stating the simple truth in plain format. God's Word has not come to an end.

Jo is not always truthful when it comes to cashflow. Jo can never be honest when it comes to the issue of tithe. Can you imagine Jo saying peeps in the biblical days gave money as tithe It's easy to know when Jo is not stating the truth (or when he's not sure of what he is saying); he simply disappears Jo will not post here until sometime in December or January 2013.

Image123: The context is what you look at.

Correct. Am happy reading this bit.

Image123: That reaping where you have not sown.

This is another matter. do you really think your reaping is based on your work? some peeps work harder than Dangote but are still not able to feed.

Image123: That lose so that i gain 'spirit'. It's another spirit, its not the spirit that ought to dwell in a christian. And its a possessive spirit. It lands majority of its victims in debt, depression, mismanagement and greed.

There is no true win-win situation anywhere. unless you are not ready for business. The best you can do is to compromise a little so as to reduce the loss of the other guy. The stock market you consider genuine is still gambling. some body got to lose sometime. your gain today is either some other person's loss yesterday or his loss tomorrow.

Image123: i've now defined what i refer to as gambling.

Thanks image, very much appreciate your taking time to define what you meant by gambling.

Image123: Investing is not the same as playing lotto. Jez, people go to school and obtain DEGREES learning this thing. People observe trends, history, equity, stability, the market, the news, organisational management, government policies etc before making investments. Making a foolish investment is not encouraged. People should seek quality advice and make proper research before doing anything, that way,it becomes less of a 'gamble'. Investments produce gains that can be estimated, calculated and repeated. Baba Ijebu or rolling dice cannot be.

...and you think baba ijebu or other forms of betting/gambling do not involve research? you need to be around people involve in horse betting, (soccer) pools betting e.t.c to observe analysis & research effort behind these activities , even rolling of dice self, the way you position your hand might just make the difference, Lol! Because it's not taught in school yet does not mean peeps don't adopt a scientific approach to doing these things.

Image123: Good investment can lead to debt, depression and mismanagement. But good investments do not in most cases leads to debt, depression and mismanagement.

Investment is only good when it does not end up in debt, depression and mismanagement. Otherwise it's bad. Success at rolling the dice will not lead to debt, depression and mismanagement

Image123: The rate people are ADDICTED to gambling is paranormal. It breeds greed and false hope. The e fit be you kind of hope. You continue buying and buying, looking for wrappers and bottle cor.ks, sending seemingly little 30naira, 100naira SMS, hoping to win the million, or the house. i see it at the least as an unwise thing, an appearance of evil, and a vice to flee from.

Lol! The above post can be used to describe the behavior that lead to the last stock market crash (behaviors/activities not supported by fundamentals), and you said there is nothing wrong with participating in the stock market?

Image123: The rate people are ADDICTED to gambling is paranormal. It breeds greed and false hope.

The bible said that if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away. That's not to say having a right eye is a sin. So we can say if participating in baba ijebu lotto will cause one to sin (becomes greedy), then don't get involved.
What if i come visiting and told to wait for a while because image123 is in a meeting. If i decide to roll the dice with some friends while waiting (just for fun), is that a sin?

I maintain my position that we need to properly relate biblical commands to activities undertaken in the course of interacting with our environment. what is sin and what is not sin should not be based on sentiment.

Joagbaje: Tithing was never brought to an end. There's no single scripture that's says that .

Tithe as commandment was brought to an end, with plenty of scripture verse to support this. What that means is that rendering of tenth is @ the discretion of the individual giving it. It's no different from other form of giving. What is a crime is the pastor teaching tithe as commandment. Tithing as preached today is the creation of man and influenced by greed.

Pastor Kun:

They were discussing in tongues

plappville: I will risk it for a purpose, trust me,only if Pope-Italo will be invited as the chief speaker

Appears you are looking for an opportunity to physically 'woman'-handle italo my hand no dey o!

Lord_Reed: Taking a chance or playing a chance game is not a sin. What the bible explicitly condemns is cheating and greed, characteristics which hovers around gamblers so much so gambling is now synonymous with them.

Well said. What I observed is that most people are not able to relate biblical command to activities undertaken in the course of relating with their environment.

Image123: ^gambling disturbs the equilibrium as it were. God made us to function with the laws of sowing and reaping, and an all round intrinsic trust in Him. gambling brings in a trust and usually false hope in chance, which in most cases leads to debt, depression and mismanagement.

I don't agree. Gambling as defined cannot be sin, even life self na gamble investing in whatever form is a gamble. I.e. buying land that appears rocky with the intention of developing it for agric use is a gamble. Like somebody stated, investing in companies either directly or on the stockmarket is a gamble. They can lead to debt, depression & mismanagement.

ijawkid: Zikky my man....how far na??

Just hold get together I go come....:-)

I will only invite you if it's saturnalia type feast

Madam plappville, you still dey fight for here. Anyways am seriously considering an Xmas bash this December (if am in town), you will be special guest (wheher you like it or not ). I will be inviting truthislight as well, just to show that people don't lose their heads at such parties. That appears to be his concern. Everybody attending will be leaving with their head intact