₦airaland Forum

Image123:
@zikkyWhat more can i say? The point is so close, yet so different. the issue of the 'income talk' is that gary claims that the harvest of the israelites is not income, my claim is it's income. i see your point about the harvest going through a processing cycle of conversion. It's the same process for the farmer, his seeds go through a processing cycle to become crops. It's the same thing. A hundred processings, the final product is still income. It's merely gone through an exchange of values. He's not receiving income twice on it, he's only converting.

I don see am say you stubborn   But I understand your position better, you believe anything a man produce is his income while disposing/exchanging that same produce for money or some other asset is simply an exchange of values. I never hear this definition before   but no wahala. I will leave you with something else to think about; what about the man that provides services selling his skills/know-how? Is the skill acquisition process also an income and the usage of that skill (exchange) for monetary returns simply an exchange of value? I don’t expect a reply, just think about it  

Image123:
And what happened to the other definition i posted? i could defend this, but it seems you'll simply look for seeming faults and leave other real issues.

No ooh   There was no intention to ignore the other definitions. There was not much difference in the definitions, that’s why I chose to review the last one. I will make the necessary corrections if that will make you happy. But my comment/response is not likely to change  

Image123:
Then to the definition of 'income'. i thought education should tell us that income is simply something that comes in, an increase. Well, since we must resort to higher authorities(books). let me quote one or two.

Income, money or other gain or return resulting from goods or services produced in a given period of time, usually measured annually. Income may be received by an individual or by an entity, such as a corporation or a government.

The various types of income are usually described within the private or the public sector of economic activity. In the private sector the four major types of income are wages, the return for labor; rent, the return for use of land; interest, the return for the use of capital; and profit, the return to the business owner. Income in the public sector, called national income, is the money measure of the annual flow of goods and services in an economy.

Income is normally measured in money terms, although nonmoney definitions are sometimes used. Real income refers not to the actual money income

Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Note the bolded.
I'm looking at Wikipedia and i see almost the same thing, you may also freely check it. I'll quote a sentence there; "Income is the sum of all the wages, salaries, profits, interests, payments, rent and other forms of earnings received, in a given period of time"
This are for the general public. this is what the common man views income as.

You know what I take away from the definition above? Income must involve a counter/second party. It’s not a one way traffic. They all involve a sale (somehow). Take a second look at your post  

Image123:
It's not compulsory to tithe from the exact thing that your business generates. You're missing the spirit/goal/point why God told the people to give a tithe to the levites. The reason for the tithe was that there may be meat i.e that the levites might be provided/catered for. It's the same spirit in which we're to cater for God's ministers today.

Now you are talking   If you say your giving a tenth of your salary to your pastor is motivated/driven by the spirit/goal behind the tithing activities back in the days, why we dey argue   Abeg carry go jare  

This will make him even bigger I see peeps offering sacrifice to him

@Image123, How you dey  You dey unnecessarily difficult sha  Na wa for you 

Image123:
@Zikky,Hi, maybe you should go through a dictionary.

I don’t have the stamina for that. You don alredy check am na  That saves me the time of going through one. 

Image123:
@Zikky,Hi, maybe you should go through a dictionary. gary has decided to stick to his economics textbook definitions, and thinks anything outside his textbook is EXPANSION of God's Word. First to your analogy, Nestle is not an individual. the individuals working at Nestle do not consider milo as theirs. They probably wouldn't agree to be paid in Milo. They must even ask for permission before borrowing milo for themselves. The organisation doesn't function just as a department but as a team. they have marketers and sales outlet into which they invest a lot. They all share from the gains when sales are made. Of course, the milo is valuable asset to the company, but it needs to be exchanged to another value(usually monetary) before they can declare that they've arrived.

I know individuals work at Nestle, same way a farmer will employ people to work the farm. But this was not what my objective. I was hoping you would see the organization as an individual (e.g. a farmer), and see the harvest as having gone through a processing cycle that converts the seed (raw material) into the finished or final product. Like gary already mentioned, you don’t receive income twice on the same item (except you be yahoo man). The product only becomes income when you sell.

Image123:
I'm looking at Wikipedia and i see almost the same thing, you may also freely check it. I'll quote a sentence there; "Income is the sum of all the wages, salaries, profits, interests, payments, rent and other forms of earnings received, in a given period of time"
This are for the general public. this is what the common man views income as.

You know what I take away from the definition above? Income must involve a counter/second party. It’s not a one way traffic. They all involve a sale (somehow). Take a second look at your post.

InesQor:
You people no dey rest?

Why we go rest

Nsiman:
My bros, christ came in the order of Melchizedek

I was referring to this bit below:

Joagbaje:
tithe collection was Revealed in the order of mechizedek.

And for your info, Hebrews 7 was never about tithe.

Joagbaje:
Christ came in the order of Melchizedek , tithe collection was Revealed in the order of mechizedek.

This is nonsense You should be ashamed of yourself Jo. You don’t blame me when I use unkind words here, it’s not my fault. I just don’t understand why you keep repeating this nonsense

garyarnold:
Image123 reminds me of dishonest pastors who take a word from scripture and change the definition to fit their own needs;

Image is not a dishonest pastor. I understand his plight. It’s not easy to accept as false, something you believed in and have been practicing for quite a while.

@Image123, maybe I can add my thoughts here. Please note I have not gone through any dictionary, so I could be wrong, and don’t hesitate to correct me if you believe I am.

The harvest is not an income. Let’s consider a manufacturing concern like Unilever or Nestle. To produce Milo, Nestle will combine a number of raw materials (your seed) in addition to labour. The end product which is Milo (your harvest) is still an asset (stock) of finished goods which is kept in the warehouse. It becomes or generates income only sales are made to customers. Shell or Exxon-Mobil extracts crude oil from the ground, the crude is not income to the company till it’s sold.

Let even assume that this is income (which of course is not true, but let just assume), the business man then must tithe from what his business generates and not his profit as some people believes.

I see a bit more complexity in the tithe of the flocks. It says every tenth animal that passes under the rod is holy unto the Lord. What I see here is that you can tithe from your flock year after year even if there were no new additions in the year. The tithe was not from the additions to your assets. The fact that the tithe is the tenth animal means you don’t tithe if you have just nine. So you see not everything is tithe-able  

Idi-Amin:
This aircraft is a weapon to destroy poverty in the Body of Christ by allowing my team and I to take this message of prosperity to the four corners of the earth.

When is he coming to Nigeria. This is just the plane solution to our economic problem. GEJ should sack his economic advisers if they cant get this plane to touch down in Abuja or Lagos airport. 

Idi-Amin:
God has given me a mandate to take this unique and rare anointing around the world to break the bondage of poverty.

Immediately, I knew that plane was now apart of the Kingdom of God.

This plane is anointed. You provoke the anointing just by looking at the picture.    

@Image123, i hope you are aware we are yet to settle our quarrel 

nuclearboy:
The only one who we all ought have lampooned then and even till now was/is the businessman who benefits and thus sells "give pastors your all" (so God can bless you in heaven while blessing us pastors here) .

Very true. This has always been my position.

ogoamaka99:
However, Priests (MOG) by reason of their service are to collect the tithe from the hand of the people of GOD.

Your MOG is no priest (going by the function of the levitical high priest), so he is not eligible to collect the tithe. Besides he is not even a levite.

ogoamaka99:
As I said earlier, Tithe is a covenant obligation by covenant people.

One you locked yourself into when you personally prepared the tithing agreement, signed and gave to God.

newmi:
I have mentioned earlier on this topic or one related with it that the old testament was a shadow of the new (REAL), while the new testament was concealed in the old testament little wonder the statement of Jesus in John 4:23-24
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

oh if there is the "true worshippers" then by default there is undoubtedly "the false worshippers". Now to show the ignorance of many; somebody might pick on the "false" and say ok so are you saying that they were not real and but God actually gave them the details and pattern of worship they practised so what makes it "not the real". That was the best God could get but that wasn't the ultimate.
The blood of goats and bulls and sheeps were good back in the old testament because they brough in a sense "justice" satisfying the emphasis of God's righteousness
"---without the sheding of blood there is no remission of sins--"

I am not disputing this with you.

newmi:
so the levitical order, the priestly order and all of the other orders where only but shadow of the real with all due respect. They fuctioned as the shepherd of God for the people and that is the minisyrt and office of the pastor

I have issues with this bit. What I read you say here is that the Levitical priesthood was a shadow of the real (okay) and the real according to you is the office of the pastor. I don’t think so. The Priest under the Levitical order acted as mediator between God and the people. Christ took over this role, not the pastor. There is only one high priest, one mediator, Christ. Your pastor is no priest. We no longer have a priesthood of men who dies and have to be replaced, do we? Your pastor is a self appointed priest. So my friend newmi, the Levitical priesthood does not translate to pastorhood here. Ephesians 4:11-14 details the responsibilities of the pastor.

You are yet to address my concern, and that is how your pastors successfully ‘cornered’ the inheritance of the Levites. Abi they go collect oluwole papers, forge God signature. We don’t have evidence that God transferred this inheritance to the church pastors.

Joagbaje:
The levitical order is over becasue it only accomodated the jews but now we are are back to the order of mechizedek who was a tithe collector , Jesus is our highpriest . We don't have to make references to levitical order, was melchizededk a Levite? No. So we don't need levite to tithe.

And Melchizedek priesthood accommodates the gentiles. Since you defined Christ priesthood based on the activities of the priest Melchizedek, then it is only logical to infer that Melchizedek as a priest also acted as a mediator for the gentiles back in the days. After all we are back to the order of Melchizedek, the priesthhod that mediates for both the Jews and gentiles.

Joagbaje:
Jacob tithes was not based on agric but on everything he had. Gold Carmel etc.

Joagbaje:
The fact that the bible is silent on that does not mean he didn't tithe. Someone said something like that this morning . God even reminded Jacob about the tithe because he hates foolish vow , so Jacob tithed .

Genesis 31:13
13 I[ am] the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar,[ and] where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

Genesis 35:1
1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

Definately he must have fulfilled the vow in that instruction by going to bethel, the place of his vow.

Reading through this again (I take Jo’s post very seriously). If Jacob built an altar unto God, rendered his tithe of Gold, camel e.t.c who was the priest that received these items? I’m sure it wasn’t Melchizedek. Did he ordain or recruit a priest to serve at the altar? I am sure Jacob will not be piling expensive treasures like Gold and live camel on an altar to die and rot. Maybe Jacob tithed directly to God

Image123:
@zikky
Let not the sun go down on our quarrel na.

Its unavoidable. I go review your case tomorrow. Right now i am shutting down for the day.

Joagbaje:
Was Aaron stealing from God?

You amaze me really. Why ask when you know very well that God command that he receive a portion of the tithe?

newmi:
Was it God that came down to collect tithes in the old testament times? Was is not ministers?

If tithe belong to God, and God command that the tithe be given to the Levites what right has the pastor to collect what has been given to the Levite as inheritance? God did not collect tithe in the Old Testament but directed that it be given to the Levites, by giving your tithe to the Levites, you are giving to God. Your pastor has claimed for himself an inheritance that does not belong to him. That is why people see MOGs as thieves.

Image123:
@zikky
The apostles worshipped and prayed at the temple. The temple was still functional. The early christians still went there. You'll see peter and john there. You'll find Paul there. It wasn't a take over. It's later that christians were chased from the temples and synagogues. In 70A.D, the temple was destroyed. We're now in the gentile age fully. We are a holy nation, howbeit grafted in. God has qualified us priests and kings. If you have your offerings, sacrifices and tithes, you are free to bring them to your local church. That's grace, not the letter of the law. Christ accepts what we bring, as we bring it as unto God, not men.

I will only accept this if you agree to stop making reference to Malachi 3:10, seeing the Levitical tithe as basis for your action (because they are not related) and using the words 'God command'. Thats the only way we can settle our quarrel  After you have done that we can go hang out in an e-joint, take some e-pepper soup and wash it down with some e-'whatever your heart desire'

You see by teaching giving based on a set threshold (10%), you introduce giving guided by set rules and not one motivated by genuine desire to give. You take sincerity out of giving, it does not reflect a man that is led by the spirit of God in him (and don’t tell me some give more). True giving must be from the heart, and that is what you will find in the New Testament.  We are no longer subject to such rules, let the heart determine what it should give as appreciation to the Almighty. If its 10%, fine, if 5% okay if 90%, it’s all good.

Joagbaje:
@ garyarnold
Isrealites were primarily farmers. So that's what gave birth to the emphasis on farm produce. That doesn't mean they never gave money or other things as tithes.

We dont find this anywhere in the bible. The fact that you have to pay an additional 20% as penalty (rendering your tithe in cash) is an indication money was not allowed.

Joagbaje:
Jacob tithes was not based on agric but on everything he had. Gold Carmel etc.

I get the impression you personally received the tithe from Jacob (for you to have this much information).

Joagbaje:
The law only amplified it.

What did the law amplify?

Joagbaje:
Jaccob , and Abraham tithes even when the law was not in existed.

This happened in your dreams.

Joagbaje:
we are are back to the order of mechizedek who was a tithe collector , Jesus is our highpriest .

And this makes Christ a tithe collector? The new priestly order is one that is not based on succession. It is an eternal priesthood (based on an indestructible life). This is how Hebrews described the’ order of Melchizedek’. This is where the similarities between Christ & Melchizedek end (aside the meaning of his name). You people should learn to separate the ‘order of Melchizedek’ from Melchizedek’s (the person) function as a priest. It is very wrong to equate Christ priesthood to that of Melchizedek? The whole idea of the Hebrews passage was to prove the superiority of Christ priesthood over that of the Levites. It was never an attempt to link tithing activities under Melchizedek to what should obtain under Christ priesthood.

Image123:
Today, our priests and levites are our spiritual leaders and we are God's israel. Today, we give our offerings and tithes to God through them, not the extinct levites.

Is this a command, to be adhered to by all Christians? You agreed the Apostles could not collect tithe because it was meant for the Levites.  When did God change the instruction that the G.O/MOG can now collect the tithe? Please provide scriptural back up.

One more thing image123, I am sure the descendants of Levi are still very much in existence today, they are not extinct. Maybe you can tell us why they are no longer collecting tithe. At what time did God say tithe is no longer their inheritance, it is now for the church and pastor to inherit? Please tell me how this came about, I am willing to learn. Thanks.

I hope you won't run away 

Image123:
Hebrews 7:8  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

We are all aware Melchizedek received tithe image123, that’s no news. I don’t know the purpose of this quote. But i am not sure you know what you are talking about here image123, I can’t comment cos you didn’t explain.

^^^^^ What law are you referring to here? The Mosaic law? What the message here? that Christ is yet to fulfill the law? Don’t post anything without an explanation, there is that possibility my interpretation might not reflect the message you are passing accross. But if you want to go back to the era of burnt offering, sin offering, guilt offering e.t.c. Have fun then. I think you are still going to have some issues though; there are no Levi priest to receive your tithe 

Snowwy:
The law stated, as being done away with, was the law of perfection through the Levitical priesthood not the 'law' of tithe.

The way I see it. if there is no Levitical Priesthood, then there is no more rendering of tithe to the Levites. It means there are no priest from the tribe of Levi to receive the tithe. God has not given a new instruction to take the tithe to some other place. For now, no Levi priest, no tithe.

Snowwy:
And the law of honour your father and mother still exist, so are you saying that is also done away with?

I believe you still have parents. If you dropped from the sky, there will be no parents to honour

Snowwy:
We are still to keep God's commands even though we are under grace.

God instruction was that you take the tithe to the Levi priest and not to your local church.

Snowwy:
If Jesus said that tithe should not be neglected but we should focus on weighthier matters of the law which are justice, mercy and faith, are you now saying that after Christ's death, we should not tithe, have mercy or faith?
Are you saying that all Christ said before his death was under the 'law'? So how do you live to be like Christ?
Do not tell me he was speaking to the scribes/pharisees because when he was saying unless a man is born again he will not see the Kingdom of God, he was speaking to a Pharisee too.

When Christ made that statement, the Levi priests were still very much around and happy to collect your tithe.

Image123:
Why should there be a way? The levites were alive and well, and the temple was functioning, with Paul, Peter, John and the team frequenting the place like Jesus. You see, what you don't see is that the tithe is not man's property, it is God's. It wasn't for Peter to collect for himself, neither was it for the famous poor. the tithe was holy.
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

You see image123, we are saying the same thing and that’s why you should read gary’s post again (see below). I know it’s difficult for you to read and accept, but do try to read and understand.

garyarnold:
Since in Numbers 18 God makes it perfectly clear that the tithe belongs to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, anyone who takes God’s tithe to their local church must also be robbing God since the Levites are not the ones getting it.

I see no way around this. Either the tithe ended per Hebrews 7:18, OR those who take God’s tithe to their local church must be robbing God since God gave clear instructions where to take His tithe. There is nothing in God’s Word to show that God ever changed those instructions. Therefore, the only conclusion I can reach is that taking a tithe to your local church is NOT paying the tithe to God. It is giving it to man. Nowhere in God’s Word does He give permission for the Christian Church to receive His tithe.

Therefore, IT IS A SIN AGAINST GOD to take God’s tithe to your local church. IT IS A SIN for any pastor to accept God’s tithe.

Seriously image, I think you should stop embarrassing yourself here. That’s why I like Jo, my good friend and favorite poster. If the thing don pass him power, he go waka one time, he no dey look back. I understand your cause though. It’s not easy to accept something you so much believe in, as a scam/lie. It make nonsense of all you been doing. But that’s where you get it wrong, what you practice (giving a tenth of your income to your church) is no scam and it will always be acceptable to God if done with a sincere heart. The lie comes from believing you are adhering to God commandment as given by Moses. And that has always been the issue; God did not command gentiles to bring a tenth of their income to the church or store house.

Image123:
@ZikkyThe tithe covers every dispensation. Just like love, you find it before, during and after the law.

Would you give a tenth of war spoils to God? As a Christian, if you do conquer an opposing army, are you going to take the people as your slaves and ‘corner’ their belongings? (their homes, their cars, and their money e.t.c.)

Anyways, back to your post. I think gary already provided the answers. There is nothing similar between the two other than the word tenth. You have to make a decision, Abrahams tithe or Levitical tithe.

garyarnold:
1 - We only have scripture to show that Abraham gave a tenth ONE time, and ONLY on war spoils.
2 - The later Mosaic law required a tenth of crops and animals, but NOT a tenth of war spoils. In fact, God only claimed a small fraction of a tenth of war spoils under the Mosaic law.
3 - There is no scripture to show that Abraham gave a tenth of crops and animals.
4 - Therefore, what Abraham did was NOT carried forward into the law, and what the law required was NOT followed by Abraham. There is NOTHING similar between the two other than the word tenth or tithe.

There is nothing similar between the tithe commands in the Old Testament and the made-up tithe taught by false teachers today except the word tithe.

Joagbaje:
The tithe is brought to the church now because the church is the representative of God on earth. And because of the anointing.

Joagbaje:
The reason the priests received the tithes of the people was because of the anointing upon the priest. The same way God has anointed the ministers in the church to recieve the tithes of the people.

Oga Jo, na wa for you Everything is anointing based You go don 'chop' people plenty with this ‘anointing’ stunt Take am easy na. Who tell you say the prophets of old, Elijah and Elisha them no get anointing? Dem collect tithe?

garyarnold:
Since in Numbers 18 God makes it perfectly clear that the tithe belongs to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, anyone who takes God’s tithe to their local church must also be robbing God since the Levites are not the ones getting it.

I see no way around this. Either the tithe ended per Hebrews 7:18, OR those who take God’s tithe to their local church must be robbing God since God gave clear instructions where to take His tithe. There is nothing in God’s Word to show that God ever changed those instructions. Therefore, the only conclusion I can reach is that taking a tithe to your local church is NOT paying the tithe to God. It is giving it to man. Nowhere in God’s Word does He give permission for the Christian Church to receive His tithe.

Therefore, IT IS A SIN AGAINST GOD to take God’s tithe to your local church. IT IS A SIN for any pastor to accept God’s tithe.

This is very correct if you rely on Levitical tithing practice (including Malachi) as justification. There is no way a Jewish Christian would have given his tithe to Apostle Paul.

Image123:
Well then, Numbers 18v23,24(i'm on a phone). 'The tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave-offering unto the Lord, I have given to the Levites to inherit'. T[b]his offering was a part of the income of the children of Israel.[/b] Whether you call it offering i.e heave, or tithe, or a tenth. It's the same thing. And it was the offering of the children of Israel. In another place, He says this whole nation. But what we see now is guys trying to cut it and say it's not the whole nation, but farmers only. And the new one now is that it's not all the farmers, but farmers in Israel.
Well the Bible says they were to give that tenth from their income, their gain, their harvest, what came in, what they reaped. It's all the same thing. The tithe was holy unto God i.e seperate/consecrated to God(Leviticus 27).

I don’t understand you guys, first you say the tithe pre-date the law then you go quoting Malachi. The event in Malachi relates strictly to the tithing practice under the Mosaic Law. It’s hard to get a clean shot with you guys dancing left, right and centre  You guys should stop dancing around abeg  I need you to make up your mind; pre-law or post law?

The Jews were not required to tithe from other source of income aside agricultural produce. Nowhere in the bible will you find the requirement to tithe monetary income or assets. In all instances where tithe was mentioned, it was strictly agri-produce. I am sure there were other professions at the time, or other source of earnings. And if you must pay cash, you must pay additional 20% of the tithe, the tithe (in cash) then becomes 12%. See Leviticus 27:30-32 below. So you see you are not doing the right thing.

Leviticus 27:30-32 (NIV)
30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the LORD

Numbers 18:25-28 (NIV)
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD’s offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress. 28 In this way you also will present an offering to the LORD from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the LORD’s portion to Aaron the priest.

2 Chronicles 31:5-6 (NIV)
5 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, olive oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 6 The people of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the LORD their God, and they piled them in heaps.

Nehemiah 10:37-39 (NIV)
37 “Moreover, we will bring to the storerooms of the house of our God, to the priests, the first of our ground meal, of our grain offerings, of the fruit of all our trees and of our new wine and olive oil. And we will bring a tithe of our crops to the Levites, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all the towns where we work. 38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury. 39 The people of Israel, including the Levites, are to bring their contributions of grain, new wine and olive oil to the storerooms, where the articles for the sanctuary and for the ministering priests, the gatekeepers and the musicians are also kept.  “We will not neglect the house of our God.”

Nehemiah 13:5 (NIV)
5 and he had provided him with a large room formerly used to store the grain offerings and incense and temple articles, and also the tithes of grain, new wine and olive oil prescribed for the Levites, musicians and gatekeepers, as well as the contributions for the priests.

Nehemiah 13:12 (NIV)
12 All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and olive oil into the storerooms.

SirJohn:
So I can say that the child of two born again christians are saved even from birth and so may go to heaven if they die at infancy and the child of two unbelivers are born sinners and hence will go to hell if they die at infancy. is that your position?


You are still giving me your personal opinion unless you have them backed up

Jo dey dribble you. Any attempt to do more than this go put am for tight corner   if you worry am too much he no go show up here for a long time   take am easy on the guy abeg  

Tonye-t:
Your analogy is great but your notions i dont quit agree with, my dear sister! How?

As a spiritual leader your life and leadership should be to build your subjects to grow to the full model of Jesus Christ (perfection) by teaching them qualities like love, faithfulness, mercy, justice, forgiveness as well as the precepts of the spiritual man and not to be teaching them not to sin. How?

When these qualities find a root in any man, then that which is sinful and evil will give way automatically.

Tonye-t:
Someone's flock living in sin is only a sign that the leadership of the shepherd is faulty. Quote me!

Oga Tonye, too bad you no be babe, cos i feel like  ing you 

Image123:
Lemme be clear on this, zikky, are you also saying you've never seen scriptures that say/support the above?

Lets see what you got

KunleOshob:
@image123
Any sound scriptural back up for the crap you just posted above?

Scripture ke? you should be asking for pastoral back up