₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
Let me clarify the issue of consequence. God will not punish any person for not tithing .

Joagbaje:
I believe tithing is a necesity.

Joagbaje:
But when you don't do it. You only miss out of the grace that particular deed carries.

Contradiction, as usual You think absence of protection in a particular area is not punishment abi What you are saying here is that a son that refuses to wash the dishes will not be entitled to dinner. That no be punishment abi  You only deceive ya-self (and ya-crew)

Joagbaje:
Simple. The grace is to shield in the area of concern. A man that takes care of his parents activate the grace of long life and some other blessings. Why would paul quote the law here.

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Because these are spiritual principles. If you do them , it will work for you. If you don't do it. You miss out of it's grace.  Imagine someone comes and say " Paul is a mugu" " I don't honour my parent and I didn't die" that's exactly the issue with tithe. There is blessing for walking in love. There is blessing for forgiveness to others etc. It's not by force . You do it ,it works for you . You don't do it , you miss it's blessing.

All you have succeeded in saying is that there are benefits beyond the reach of a non-tither Yet you refused to list these benefits Why? Because there are non You continue to deceive ya-self (and ya-crew)

Snowwy:
Hmmmmmm, just like giving is not a law. Abi, do you have a scripture to prove giving is a law? I think there are benefits or consequences of not giving.

I don’t quite agree with this bit. If your giving is driven by greed, there is no way you will benefit. Also, your giving does not have to be a specified amount (10%) to benefit. Your giving should be driven by your love for God and for your neighbor. We don’t measure and dish out love in percentages. So, I rather say there are benefits or consequences of not living a Christ-like life

Snowwy:
I am sure you know why God gave the tithes to the Levites then? Please enlighten us since you have better understanding

It obvious you don’t know what you are talking about. So, I would advise you stop telling us tithing is based on spiritual principles

SirJohn:
This is nothing but manipulation that has no foundation from scriptures.
There are no consequences for not tithing, if there are please name them; there can only be if it were a law but it is not.

Good talk SirJohn

Joagbaje:
So judging the Christian tithing by the Standard of the law is faulty.

And that’s what you do when you quote Malachi 3:10

Joagbaje:
This things are based on principles of faith

Pastors don’t preach tithing as principles of faith; pastors see tithing as a spiritual principle after they must have ‘danced’ their way into a difficult position

Joagbaje:
we dont need to criticise one another here. if i believe in this principles because they work for me and you dont believe,its not a problem. there shouldnt be abuses over what another believe.

Romans 14:5-6
5 . .  Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Those who believe in tithing are convinced it's working for them . They don't have to be persecuted for it.

Nobody argues over what you believe, it is about what you preach. i.e. it only becomes an issue when you attempt to convince/confuse the other person into tithing

Snowwy:
This is not the same as tithe and nowhere is its stated in the scripture above i.e the ten percent meant to support those that preach the gospel.

And where in the scripture is it stated that we must give ten percent of our income to support those that preach the gospel Are you reading from ROR

Snowwy:
Beyond that, there is nowhere in the new testament that you can see the acceptance of burnt offerings. However, we see tithes mentioned.

One thing I like to ask, was tithe mentioned as an accepted practice after the crucifixion?

Snowwy:
God's laws are not arbitrary rules. They are based on spiritual principles. We should keep the laws of God not with arbitrary exactness, but accordance to the spiritual intent.

It’s not enough to say we should keep laws of God in accordance to the spiritual intent. Kindly explain the ‘spiritual intent’ underlying the requirement that other tribes of Israel must render ten percent of their farm produce to the Levites I am sure you don’t have a clue

Snowwy:
"Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," Deuteronomy 25:4 tells us. The literal meaning is sensible — it is based on a good principle. Paul applied this verse — in principle, not in letter — to human workers, including those who preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:7-12: 1 Timothy 5:17-18).

Is it because there are no scripture to support the modern day pastoral interpretation of tithe or what Why is it difficult for you guys to understand that nobody is against the pastor or church worker obtaining legitimate benefit from the gospel

Snowwy:
Hi blacksta,
You quoted 2 Corinthians 9:7 but you skipped the prior verses 5 & 6 though:

2 Corinthians 9:5-7 (King James Version)

5Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

6But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. [b][/b]

7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


It is not contradictory. Spiritual discernment is necessary and not the legalistic study of the bible as the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.

There is nothing wrong with blacksta’s post. Verse 5&6 is not saying anything different. Sorry to say this, but Nuke was right, you are using your intelligence wrongly

You miss my point Jo If you say church going christians are ignorant, you are simply telling me they are not getting value from the pastor's sermon

Joagbaje:
so Why would a pastor teach wrong stuff.

I dont know why ask the pastor

Joagbaje:
What is the wrong stuff.

Any sermon that ensures people are left in their ignorance

Joagbaje:
For example a christian buys anything that comes his way without restrain , he lacks financial discipline. He will soon be broke.
Paul says all things are lawful but,
1 Corinthians 6:12
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

So a reckless spender will run broke. But a spiritual man has discipline. He goes after necesities only.

I am not so sure the pastor is really competent to advice on matters of this nature, unless he is a financial expert.

Joagbaje:
ignorance of the word of God make christians lack. This can result in lack of Faith ,Lack of giving, lack of financial discipline and laziness

Which one be ignorance again Some of these guys are in church sunday to saturday listening to pastor saying they are ignorant is an indication pastor has been preaching the wrong stuff

SirJohn:
You guys are going too far, lets come back home; I have had the chance to travel to nearly every state in Nigeria and the same thing applies here. Apart from Lagos, Edo and Rivers states, where Chris has the most followership in thousands, you cant say the same for most other states.

The pastor here must be doing a good job

mabell:
Taking note of the above, why then do Christians lack or live a life of suffering?

Good question mabell So, do you have the answers

mabell:
you no fit know now,
There are some pastors that work part time as civil servants, bankers, teachers e.t.c, and then pastor a church, you can't say they are doing full time pastoring in that case

Pastor na pastor any way you look at it the only difference is that one supplement his 'takings' by engaging in other income earning activities (outside of the church) while the so called full time pastor relies wholly on the congregation for his 'chop-chop' na simple matter.

mabell:
with this we need not worry about pastors but about your kind of people

You are looking in the wrong direction Why worry about me when i am not the one on the pulpit Like you rightly said, your pastor is the pimping example of what he preach, worry about him abeg

mabell:
well, there are different types of pastoring
There is the full time and part time
some pastor do full and have their own business while others work and pastor too

Which one be full time & part time pastor na pastor abeg are you saying Apostle Paul was doing part time

mabell:
Pastor and Christians preach this good news

Good news for the pastor This na his time to 'hammer'

mabell:
so their lives should be an example of what they preach and what the bible says

I agree thats why we believe they are 'pimps'

Ganjaseed:
is there any country known to any of you where Love World television station is one of the national station? if NO then who is he airing that programme for?

al-Qaeda – Afghanistan

dare2think:
Nobody says Men of God have to be paupers. But a degree of humility is needed when you are leading people in terms of religion. Having flashy cars and Jets does not make sense when you still have member's of the congregation struggling to make ends meet. The duty of the MOG is to be the sherpard of their flock. And Sherpards must always tend to their flocks. But this MOG'S seem to tend to themselves. Ashimolowo for instance had a birthday for his wife at the Dorchester hotel in London. That is one of the most expesive hotels in london/world. Common.
Pls where does he get his money from? He is a full time MOG, so technically he is spending the church's money. And what is the Church's money? The money the congregation gives o the church, which may be in form of tithe,blah, blah blah. TRUE MEN OF GOD STAY HUMBLE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THIER REWARD IS IN HEAVEN AND NOT ON EARTH. wHAT WE HAVE NOW ARE NOT MOG. they are SCAMMERS. Well most of them

Good talk

nuclearboy:
^^^ Read the entire thread, Zikky and you'll understand what happened

Maybe later

Zikkyy:
Really not sure i understand what happening here

mabell:
how can you like what you don't understand?

I like the post Just dont understand why you guys are fighting

^^^ Okay

nuclearboy:
The Christian life is meant to be like that of Jesus. Tell the truth at any cost. Let God's Glory show in your Truth, Consistency, love to others especially those who cannot pay you back; in short - be a light on a hill. When people see light, they come to it. They may not want Heaven or Christianity but they come. NOT for miracles (selfish reasons) or money but just because you are a real star. Then they admire and come closer. Then they start to practice what they see in you. You have WON them. It is not by preaching (that has its own place) but by WITNESS. Me/you witness with our lives. That is why we always talk about fruit. Everyone loves sweet fruits but sour grapes?

nuclearboy:
Christian living is NOT MEANT to be an avenue for empty boasting (I won 10 souls - with what lifestyle),

Really not sure i understand what happening here but this is one post i like

Joagbaje:
The blood of a baby comes from the father sperm and not from the mother.

Jo, kindly stick to your paintings please i no sure say na biology teach you this one what do you mean the blood of a baby come from the father sperm This na spiritual biology

nuella2:
Hmmmm . I dey suspect you o. This one you are avoiding the topic,

No wahala carry go with the suspicion

nuella2:
Come out straight zikky? Was Jesus born with sin in him? His conception was not like every other human being, he was GOD( word). Two pple come together to give a human the adamic nature. His was different, i know if we want to analyze with our knowledge of biology its unbelieveable but what did the bible say?

This is a topic i like to avoid nuella i observed you were not reading chukwudi post correctly, just wanted to help point you in the right direction, thats all

nuella2:
Giving its a principle, you will certainly recieve an harvest when you give. But you cant tell God the kind of harvest you want to recieve. And there are different kind of givings. The spirit of God can tell someone to sow a seed to come out of something or receive something, thats personal. When ABRAHAM wanted to sacrifice his son, what did he expect? The man trusted God with his all, he was ready to sacrifice anything for God.

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS.

nuella2:
I think alot of people misjudge Jo. He has never supported coercing pple to give from the posts he make in nl.

Jo supports coercive preaching.

nuella2:
People should give with a conviction and a willing attitude, when they are forced they start murmuring and complaining and that giving may not be rewarded and that could bring doubt to the message of giving. It works but giving should be based on revelation and conviction.

You are aware of this and you still support the rubbish joagbaje post around here

nuella2:
Its not kabukabu cos some pple give a particular thing and expect a particular thing, thats wrong. That you gave a car do not mean you will get a bigger car, and the reason for giving a car should not because you want a bigger car thats my point. God can reward you with any other thing. Thats why some pple get frustrated after giving bc they were expecting a particular harvest. Giving is basically an act of worship, love and surrender to God. God owns everything, if he needs anything he will not ask us. But we demonstrate our trust and love for him with our much we give to him.

Okay I will flow with you on this one

People get frustrated because they have been taught to expect. Meaning there must be a return from any act of giving. Motive is very important here. You said giving is basically an act of worship, love and surrender to God. Giving in this form does not involve expectations, and that is what true Christian giving is all about. Knowing the damage giving with the wrong motive can do to our Christian brothers & sisters, why dont we preach love instead Giving out of love takes away expectation of possible returns. This way frustration is taken out of the equation, and you are able to appreciate whatever God reward you with

nuella2:
Its not kabukabu cos some pple give a particular thing and expect a particular thing, thats wrong. That you gave a car do not mean you will get a bigger car, and the reason for giving a car should not because you want a bigger car thats my point. God can reward you with any other thing.

My apologies for coming back to this bit It's just that this is contrary to what Joagbje preach around here. According to Jo, you can get what you want, how you want and when you want

nuella2:
giving is not kapukapu. God is not a gambler, abi na bribery and corruption?

Nice but i have difficulty reconciling to this bit below

nuella2:
When you give doors of making money are open to us

EarsWide:
Abi now, they have to compete - soon they will do 2 months free (tithe 10 times for the reward of 12)

Joagbaje:
The pastor is not called to spoon feed people. The early church at the initial stage due to persecution , shared all things together and eat together because they were in hiding. But that was an abnormal situation. Things changed later.

Yes oooo its every man for himself. claim your prosperity, i claim my own, ******** no go vex

mabell:
The gospel came to address the different needs of the people in their lives, jobs and all that concerns them
For the sick the gospel is divine health, for the poor the gospel is prosperity

What about the rich

Claus:
However, that is not the issue at hand. For those of us that stand against this prosperity gospel, the concern is that the main message being sent out to people, regardless of their level of income is to GIVE, especially to their "ministry".

Claus:
However, there is a part of this prosperity message that convinces people that giving to the "ministry" is their way out of poverty, thereby turning the church into some sort of financial investment vehicle.

True talk Claus.

nuella2:
Chineke!!!

Jesus was the word made flesh, he was the child of the holy ghost o. He was sinless, stop posting nonsense.

nuella2, i have higlighted an additional word from chukwudi's comment. I hope you understand his post better with this

chukwudi44:
This is exactly what I am talking about.Since Jesus took his flesh and blood from Mary,there is no way Jesua could have been conceived without sin If Mary had been sin,thats where this whole concept of immaculate conception comes about

Claus:
what is happening with the prosperity gospel is easily explained by economics. We wonder why, for example, in Nigeria churches are opening in every street corner.

It's called supernormal profits. When firms enjoy these supernormal profits, others are incentivised to enter the industry to try to acquire some of these profits for themselves.

Make a lot of sense. I guess profit will normalize when the market becomes saturated (when every house on my street ends up as church, including my own ). To survive church will be giving discount to woo members. I can just picture CEC cutting tithe to 9% Though i dont see that happening anytime soon.

Azibalua:
Well let me help
1. Water projects
2. Ambulances and vehicles donated
3. Computers donated to security agents

This is corporate social responsibility in action usually a token from the annual profit to make you look good in the eyes of an (otherwise angry) society you are competing with the likes of Exxon, Chevron, Oando, Nestle, First Bank